ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2009-01-12, 21:21:57
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Spotted this in a thread on myArmoury:
As for historic kidney protection...well by SCA rules, a lot of armor that cover that area is adequate. However some fighters who do that end up urinating blood the next day sometimes and a weight belt pretty much elimates that level of damage to your kindney (rememer the SCA uses wraps...and a lot of times, they land on your kidney)...and historical or not, why would you NOT wear one under everything for that added safe guard? I mean it can just serve as a 20 dollar don't wanna piss blood armor piece...
(--P. Cha http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=151684#151684 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=151684#151684))
Ouch, that seems kind of... excessive. In terms of the abuse taken by the fighters. The SCA combat looks like a lot of fun, but I have a hard time justifying in my head the emphasis that's always placed on power.
I thought it was telling when I read a message on another forum that was quoting an SCA tournament report from 1970:
Also, the insistence on a “solid blow,” is steadily escalating us towards someone getting killed on the field. Fighters are repeatedly having an opponent not call a blow because, “it wasn’t hard enough,” and then not calling blows upon themselves, for the same reason. This, I think, puts us in the same boat as the controversy between “tussling on the ground” and “weapon-work only.” I feel more and more that, if we are truly concentrating on style, then solidness of blow should be discounted in favor of cleanness. The sharp, precise, blow and block of good sword and shield work is beautiful to watch. When people have to put roundhouses into every blow, they don’t have time to be precise. As things are, Sir Frederic of the WestTower has a shoulder muscle which may or may not recover (it hadn’t fully recovered when I saw him Sunday night), and Kevin Peregrine may have the nerve trunk to his right arm permanently damaged (I haven’t heard anything on this since the Tourney). Something has to be done, I don’t think armor for all is the answer.
(http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1278414#1278414 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1278414#1278414))
Anyway, not intending to criticize, but I continue to be surprised (or not) when I read some of these things, and it makes me glad I'm doing something else. :)
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hehe lets get some historical looking foam boffers and beat the living hell out of each other ;)
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That's another one of the issues I started seriously thinking about Sir Edward.
It was getting to be a sport of swinging a round-house axehandle, instead of
improving on your form and being honest with calling a blow. To me, even if a shot
was light to my helm or face, I obviously didn't see it coming and would therefore
call the shot. Bugged a lot of marshalls would would say it was light, and I explained
the situation. Another reason why I liked fighters in Meridies, their rules forced a
fighter to not get hit period..... ;)
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Sounds like this goes hand in hand with the 'rhino' aspect of SCA fighting that I've heard about. Some injury is going to occur at some point in a sport like this; I think it is up to the participants to decide whether or not they really want to participate in the event.
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The justification of the SCA demanding a "solid blow" is (someone correct me if I'm wrong) they only count blows that would kill. By that logic, historically you wouldn't have anything like ridiculous wind-ups, and piss blood strikes (with the exception of warriors using maces, warhammers, flails, and some types of pole-weapons). If the goal is martial effectiveness (which is what the logic seems to be getting at) the rules should specify against windups and roundhousers! Doing that in a real fight, especially a mass battle, would have got you killed historically. Even if you were wearing the nicest plate harness around, a windup smiler to whats seen in SCA would result in getting taken down to grapple with any opponent with his wits about him! Also, you don't need overly powerful blows to kill. It's more about edge alignment and technique than anything. In fact, if they wished to approximate history closer in the calling of shots, they should be judged on martial effectiveness, technique, and cleanness. In fact, a draw cut, which requires no "power" at all is a viable and effective way of killing someone (although just like all the rest of the strikes, obviously not so effective against armour).
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Yep, they neglect the need for technique, and they disallow blows that would be very effective (shots to the knee or foot). The rules count "kill" blows as blows to the head and chest, even though they assume everyone is wearing armor in-persona aside from what they're actually wearing, and these are the sorts of blows that the armor is designed to stop. So it's a bit of a paradox.
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I haven't seen any period techniques I can remember that involve wraps (as done in SCA), and SCA combat is HUUUGE on "get in, hug him, and keep throwing wraps". I've heard it called stick tag, and after having done it for a season, that's about all it seems to be. No draw cuts, of course, not much blade-to-blade technique. It's very much like movie combat where they trade clumsy blows back and forth most of the time. Not much in the way of historical recreation, despite the name, unless you think of the late period club tournaments. Also odd is that you can theoretically lose both legs and an arm yet still continue fighting. The whole of SCA combat doesn't make much sense to me.
Except that it's fun. I'll admit, it was quite fun. Mostly to be able to put on armor, grab a SLO, and smack away at each other. As long as it's taken for something done more for fun than historical accuracy, it's enjoyable. It was much more engrossing than classes in loose fitting modern clothes, to be in harness, and actually swinging at an opponent you can make contact with.
Any "Great" weapons, 2 handed swords, etc, are supposed to be banned from any attack requiring more than 90* to swing. So there's no baseball swings or "wind ups", though of course enforcement is another issue. I tried sword & board as well as great sword, so they gave me a brief rundown. I had bruises aplenty after most of the practices, but I think half of them were self-inflicted from the loaner gear that was a bit too large and pinching when I would try to cross my arms too much.
However, I never broke a bone, never peed blood, never missed work the next day; I was no more sore than a really rough day at the gym / playing basketball/football all day. I did wear a full plate harness though; the popular armor seems to be transitional for weight vs protection compromise, and indeed I took far more blows than I landed, but I was in it for nothing more than fun and learning.
It was a group of 4-8 "usuals" for the entire season, so we got to know each other and didn't have much fear that we would wallop each other. I'd imagine fighting other people in tournaments who are out to "prove something", or doing the big events, chance of injury is probably higher.
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Sounds like it could be a fun time for all involved...so they use SLOs? Would never have guessed that...unless you just mean sword like object, but not in the usual negative connotation (stainless steel wallhangers for instance).
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Right, the SCA uses rattan sticks with basket-hilts, or large cross-guards on the "great swords". The rattan makes them essentially cudgels, so it's more like cudgel fighting than sword fighting. :) It looks like fun, for sure, I just prefer to learn about actual sword combat and play to that.
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Right, the SCA uses rattan sticks with basket-hilts, or large cross-guards on the "great swords". The rattan makes them essentially cudgels, so it's more like cudgel fighting than sword fighting. :) It looks like fun, for sure, I just prefer to learn about actual sword combat and play to that.
Ah, yes, that's what I meant by SLO. Roughly the same length, covered in duct tape, with a cross guard. The thickness requirement is somewhere along 1 1/2" so that it can't fit through helm visors (which must have gaps less than 1 1/2").
There are some european groups that use rebated blades, though I've heard injuries are more frequent (based on headcount) and I've seen mutterings of deaths, but never found any confirming "official" articles.
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As with any sport, once the blood's up- only the truly disciplined could adhere to a force policy...everyone else will be swinging for the fences after a time I'd think. Sounds like fun for a day!
Those euro groups you allude to sound like what they do is more dangerous and more fun as well. No stabbing though, I should think.
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Fighting with rebated steel requires everyone to be on the same page about not using full force, or else severe injuries are more than possible. Recently a lot of the WMA/HEMA groups have started investigating the plastic trainers, since they can be relatively safe compared to wood (more flex and more bounce). But any simulator will have its share of drawbacks.
When it comes to a choice between wood and steel, there are different opinions out there on the safety of each. Some feel steel is much safer. It bends and can be made light. Wooden wasters have no give to them, and can hit like baseball bats.
Personally I like doing the drills with steel, and some light sparring. If we're going to go faster/heavier, shinai can still work well, as can the newer plastic trainers.
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I find that if all involved have good control and trust, one can use steel to have some fairly vigourous sparring. Although I do plan to get my hands on some synthetic foam (not LARP stuff) wasters, for going full contact. (But you must be ready for some bruises if using steel, but it's mainly from landing on the sword after being thrown and such)
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I've seen some of those new plastic trainers in MRL's catalog...might give them a go and see how I like it. We may all have to get one for sparring sessions initially until we're all in a trusting frame of mind. :)
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While I love sparring w/ steel, if I had the resources I would make all sparring w/ foam. Never know what can happen. (However, when it's me and my trusted friend whom I've been friends with for over 2/3 of my life, the steel comes out ;D)
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My sister and I spar using steel blunts...it can be quite painful, but also fun.
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HAHA, thats hilarious! :D :D :D
My sister would NEVER do anything that cool. She's simply afraid to walk into my room. The full sized halberd propped up against the door, and her recent experience of stubbing her toe on my warhammer (whilst pilfering my music no less! :o Serves her right!) might have something to do with it.....
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I think my sister may have more weapons than I do...her collection's certainly more varied than mine. She used to get bamboo staves from some local business and we'd spar with those as well, when armor wasn't available or too much trouble to bother with. lol
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I've seen some of those new plastic trainers in MRL's catalog...might give them a go and see how I like it. We may all have to get one for sparring sessions initially until we're all in a trusting frame of mind. :)
I used my polyurethane waster at the last session of MASHS on Sunday while the instructor used his wood waster. The poly held up very well. :)
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Good to know, Sir Brian...these poly bladed swords seem to be pretty durable, based on your account and the reviews of some other folk. I find wooden wasters to be somewhat fragile...but I guess it is like anything else in life, you get what you pay for and I got some of those on the cheap. lol
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The MRL wooden wasters aren't very durable. They work well enough for a while, but they tend to split right down the length of the grip. The Purple Heart wasters (http://woodenswords.com (http://woodenswords.com)) are very good in comparison.
The Cold Steel plastic wasters (the ones Sir Brian picked up at MDRF) work well for the price. Can't beat that, really. Ideally they need a slightly heavier pommel to offset the blade weight, but they work well enough for being so cheap.
MRL has the Rawlings plastic trainers (http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-1409-nylon-two-handed-whalebone-practice-sword.aspx). I bought a set of these too. They're not too bad, though they have almost a little too much flex in blade which makes certain techniques difficult to perform. But then, no trainer is perfect, and they'll all have certain compromises in their use. They cost about the same as a waster from Purple Heart, and I think they're much safer than wood because of the softer plastic and flex.
Usually, as a general rule, you don't want to mix materials with what your partner is using, since one trainer will chew up the other. But plastic and wood seem to mix pretty well, IMHO.
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Those are the ones...I like that they're not just cross-shaped pieces of plastic but they went the extra mile to make them look like the swords we know and love.
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Whoah. I'm seriously impressed by those wasters. Anyone try out those models? They might be just what I've been looking for if the handling isn't sloppy.
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I'm not very impressed with the current batch, but supposedly they're making changes to them. Right now they flex over the length of the entire blade, and therefore all actions from the bind are hindered because the blades flex with pressure. The feedback the community has been giving them has been that we want them to be stiffer in the forte of the blade, but retain flex around the third of the blade nearest the point, and supposedly they're working on that. Also they are really light, and many people want them to have at least a little bit more heft to be more realistic, but not so much as to lose sight of safety.
I prefer the Purpleheart Armory synthetics far more, but these Rawlings ones by MRL show promise if they make the appropriate changes.
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The page says that it only flexes the last 3rd of the blade. I think they may have made those changes.
lets hope. :)
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=600874&name=Rawlings+Synthetic+Sparring+Long+Sword
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There are prototypes in existence, but they aren't on the market yet, so no, those are not the updated versions. They might flex *more* in the last third, but they still flex all over the blade. Trust me, these are not martial arts tools. They're toys. Like I said, though, they show promise that better ones can be made, but for now the Purpleheart Armory ones are much, much better.
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These are the ones Bill is referring to (as being good):
http://woodenswords.com/WMA/synthetic.LS.typeII.htm (http://woodenswords.com/WMA/synthetic.LS.typeII.htm)
I have one of these as well. They're cost effective, durable, and don't flex nearly as much. Though they also hit harder in a thrust as a result of course.
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Oh. Well I'm giving those a wide berth then.
Anyone have anything to say about the cold steel longsword trainers?
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Anyone have anything to say about the cold steel longsword trainers?
You get what you pay for. :)
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But as far as "bang for your buck" goes, how are they?
Are they safe for sparring? (main concern)
Do they handle anything like a sword? Is the handling bad enough to prevent proper technique?
Anything else I might want to know? (knowing cold steel, I bet they're at least gonna last for a long time)
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But as far as "bang for your buck" goes, how are they?
If you can't afford anything else, they'll do, but they balance poorly. They feel too short to be a two handed sword, but balance very far along the blade making them sluggish for a one hander. I prefer them as single handers.
Are they safe for sparring? (main concern)
That's hard for me to answer, as I don't know how you do free play. I've used them, and they're as safe/unsafe as a wooden waster is. (And I'm going to be pedantic here for a second, but there's no such thing as "sparring" with a weapon, despite what everyone says... you fence with a weapon, you free play, you bout, but when you spar, by definition, you are doing so empty handed. :) )
Do they handle anything like a sword?
Not like a very good sword, no.
Is the handling bad enough to prevent proper technique?
Well, no. But you need proper technique in order to handle them well. :)
(knowing cold steel, I bet they're at least gonna last for a long time)
Well, being plastic, they will probably survive the apacolypse. :)
Many of us have given Cold Steel feedback on how to improve these *imensely* with only minor modifications that shouldn't affect the price much, but alas, they haven't done anything yet. We'll see what the future holds, but right now I give these a rating of 6 out of 10, and that factors in the price. I don't hate them, but they aren't good, either.
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Ok. Yeah, I'm trying to start a fencing club at my school, and as we have an immensely low low budget, that's really about the only way we could get "safe" swords into 15-20 peoples hands ASAP. Whenever we need some nice handling, I'll bring in my tinker.
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That's a good way to look at it, I think. If you just need something crappy to get something in the hands of 20 people, then they're probably a good starting point. I'd encourage anyone serious about continuing to upgrade to a better trainer, of course.
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Ok. Yeah, I'm trying to start a fencing club at my school, and as we have an immensely low low budget, that's really about the only way we could get "safe" swords into 15-20 peoples hands ASAP. Whenever we need some nice handling, I'll bring in my tinker.
For that, they'll do. But if you're on a real budget, I suggest using some hard wood dowels. They're dirt cheap, and they're a good enough to learn basics. If anyone wants to have something nicer, they have to buy it themselves. :)
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OK. I'm a little lateon this but what the heck...
I have 7 years of Tae Kwon Do, 1 year of Foire HEMA, and 11 years of being an SCA Heavy in the West Kingdom.
So, Do y'all have questions about injury rates and whatnot?
C'mon ask me something. I'm sick with the flu and unemployed. Gimme something to do.
-Ivan
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Oh yes, please do. I haven't done SCA heavy (watched a bit, but haven't participated). I've read about people peeing blood if they didn't take the kidney protection seriously enough and the like (as you saw at the start of the thread). But I don't know first hand about the SCA's injury rates. I know there's a certain amount of emphasis on power, so it has me curious.
In our HEMA work, we avoid injury most of the time (except for the occasional bruise or swollen knuckle), but finger breaks happen from time to time when people aren't careful. Longpoint saw a lot more injury since the competition seemed to encourage people to ramp up the power.
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My list of SCA injuries is relatively minor considering I've been swinging a stick for more than 12 years. Sprained ankles, heat exhaustion, and a broken thumb top my list. Note that all of these were preventable on my part. Taking care when stepping over "dead bodies" and trotting on rough terrain, taking more frequent water breaks when you know full well that your body is baking in the sun and wearing properly strapped / formed gauntlets would have prevented all these injuries.
The only injury that I could not have prevented myself was a concussion many years ago. I was "legged" and fighting from my knees (think Dorf does medieval), my next recollection was everyone staring down at me saying "Are you OK?" Evidently, our line collapsed and a guy with a longsword came around the end and clocked me in the back of the helm during the heat of the moment. He was aghast at the injury he caused and was very apologetic; I hold no grudge against him. Unfortunately, I didn't go to the hospital and instead suffered for a few days. If anything, I'm mad at myself for not treating this injury properly.
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The injury rates (IE need a doctor) of SCA fighting are less than professional Ping Pong and have been that way for 45 odd years (according to the insurance company).
In 11 years in armour I've gotten: Some Sciatic Nerve damage, 2 concussions (no loss of consciousness), one temp damaged shoulder nerve, and many bruises, welts and contusions.
In one year of HEMA: A broken knuckle, a separated rib, and 4 partially dislocated ribs.
In 7 yrs of TKD padded sparring: 1 partly broken shin, 3 concussions (1 knocked me out), 1 dislocated toe, 4 sprained ankles, 1 sprained wrist, and perhaps a hairline broken finger.
In 27 years of SCA fighting my mom has been concussed a few times, and bruised alot, but her 2 worst ones are when she stepped in a gopher hole and broke her ankle, and when she, as a lefty, didn't wear sufficient forearm protection and got her arm broken (to this day she admits fault as she had been warned it could happen).
As you know, in a full speed & full contact sport shite can happen. As for pissing blood, well, that shouldn't happen if the individual wore proper kidney protection (and has never happened to anyone I know), but it does. Sometimes armour fails, the shot comes in funky, the guy's protection actually WASN'T What he claimed, ETC, but it has never happened to anyone I know and I come from perhaps 'the' hardest hitting Kingdom in the known world.
As for the power well... If I swung my tourney sword to your unprotected head at regular force levels I could easily see your death as a result. HOWEVER, I have taken a broadsword shot to the ribs just above my curiass and with nothing but my shirt in the way and had only a big bruise to show for it along with a lack of breath.
I can also say that in 45+ years the SCA has never had a death from this stuff which is better than PeeWee Football (scary no?). Also there is a derogatory term for folks in the SCA who wear just the minimums here in the West: Pad-Boy.
As to specific injury rates.... mebe the Kingdom Chiurgeon would know? Chirurgeon@westkingdom.org
Got's more? I am still sick.
-Ivan
Who can put his fist through 2 pine boards and his elbow through 5, and thus is listed as lethal twards shelving.
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Wow Ivan, that's an impressive injury list. I'm surprised at those HEMA injuries; how did that happen?
I've heard that the East Kingdoms of the SCA tend to "rhino" more and hit harder as a result. When I did a season of it, I wore full-plate 15th/16th century roughly italian style armor - horseman's pauldrons, hinged cuirass w/faulds, full rerebrace/vambrace/16th cent elbows, full cuisse w/1 wrap plate (shield side), full greaves, and a generic bargrill helm. I had plenty of bruises, though I'd wager mostly due to the borrowed cuirass pinching and impacting my chest - I don't think I ever had a blow take the wind out of me. All I ever participated in was the local pick-up fighter practice - no large melees or tourneys. It was fun, but not really my thing, especially with the persona and all that.
Pardon me, I have to go hide my shelving...
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Yeah, the persona thing is interesting. I think the lines get blurred a lot, so it doesn't have to be a deal-breaker. I remember seeing some discussions (lightly, with no real answers) touching on knighthood, and whether it's really the person, or the persona, that gets knighted. :)
In a way, I don't think you really need to make a distinction, since I think the function of the persona is really just to set a historical context for yourself, and isn't really meant as a form of role-playing, though people probably go to both extremes I would guess.
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I enjoy the escape mostly. The persona thing is fun since our group is a bunch of mercenaries for hire, even though we never accept any real compensation for a contract. It's all in fun.
It's never really possible to seperate your persona from the real you, whether a knight or not. If you're a prick in real life, you're a prick in persona.
The vast majority of SCA injuries I've seen have occured at major events. Hundreds of (non-too-thin and usually hung over) weekend warriors clashing for hours and hours on rough terrain under the glaring sun takes its toll. Yes, there's always a rhino or two and there's always a whiner or two, but most have a GREAT time. (The parties tend to get out of hand as well)
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I've yet to witness an SCA event...on my list of things to do.
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If you get the chance, Pennsic is an event unlike any other. Typical attendance is over 10k, sometimes as high as 14k. There's classes, shopping, combat, archery, parties, and more. The shopping alone typically takes us about 2 days when we go.
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That's the one, Sir Edward, Pennsic. One of the SBG forumites was telling me about it- he goes for the entire affair, sets up camp and everything. I imagine he's not the only one, just the only one I know. Does everyone on here attend?
My wife's ADD wouldn't stand a chance but I'd love to go.
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Wow Ivan, that's an impressive injury list. I'm surprised at those HEMA injuries; how did that happen?
A broken knuckle: Did slow work with wooden wasters and caught my opponents blade on my finger. I also broke my instructors pinky when he decided to use padded motorcycle gauntlets during sparring and did a stop thrust at the absolute worst, stupidest time.
A separated rib: Landed on a hidden root after being thrown during a demo in a park when we did a dagger attack and defense at full speed.
4 partially dislocated ribs: During Scottish Backhold practice.
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Hmmm....That's impressive Ivan.
Slight necro to update all the status of my fencing club:
Petition reviewed by principle, principle liked it, assistant principle demanded it be sent up to the board.
After about 3 months at the board of edu w/ no replies back, I think they're pulling yet another fast one on me. (they have actually redefined bladed weaponry in order to keep my blunts out)
I'm thinking of just having the thing at my place or something. Same exact program and ideas, and all that jazz. Now have about 15-20 people who would be interested in the opportunity to regularly play with weapons.
But as a minor change, I would consider adding a middle finger in a large bend followed by a stylized image of my school on the COA..... >:(
jk...... ;D ;D ;D
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Yeah I really think schools go overboard these days. When they start banning anything and everything that has even the slightest resemblance to violence or competition, such as dodge-ball or "cops and robbers" during recess, then it's no surprise that a high school will be upset about blunt swords.
I think schools have really lost their minds in the last few decades.
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The sad thing is that there wouldn't even be a blunt sword on the premises during school hours!
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Have you tried the route of being an after school hours "private club" that rents the gym for a nominal fee? You might be able to get around the red tape assuming they don't want to see a COI (certificate of insurance) naming your group. In this manner, the school board has no say in the matter. Are you friendly with the school athletic director? He (She) can be your best friend in this matter.
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Or do a class at the local YMCA...
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The sad thing is that there wouldn't even be a blunt sword on the premises during school hours!
Two friends, their mother and I were kicked off of the high school tennis courts, in the evening and after school hours by the local PD. We were the only ones there, but since we weren't on the tennis team, they booted us. And that was around 12-15 years ago. As much as I distrust school "judgement" any more, it surprises me that a place like West Virginia that has a sizable hunting population would be so freaked out by a blunt sword.
Sounds like you're on the right path - just have it at your place, and the school can wallow in their idiocy. Then when this generation grows up and is terrified by the inevitable conflicts of living in the real world, outside of that little teaching bubble, and all go crying to their guidance counselor (HR) when they don't get a bonus and Teddy did because he had more sales than them, well, we can say "See, you should have let them have SOME kind of competitive activity!", instead of the "everyone tried, everyone gets a trophy!" nonsense. We're messing them up from an early age. That's why I wouldn't let my brother win at Pokemon all the time, even when he was 5; I think it helped him learn you don't always win, and that makes someone a better person.
Rodney has a good idea, but I think most schools would still have the weapons prohibition for after-hours clubs as well. Otherwise, someone could walk in with a weapon, hide it somewhere, a student gets it the next day and then....
Uhh, hmm, seem to have wandered off track here. Check with your parents (I'm guessing you live at home?) and see if the homeowner's insurance would cover injuries. It usually does, and it's a good thing to know for worst-case scenario.
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Yeah. And BTW, the athletic director is a complete and utter moron hereabouts. Even if he WOULD go as far as to stop sucking face w/ high school girls to attempt to have an agreement he would probably deny it. I feel that I really don't want to work with that person in starting this.
So far, it is looking like my house will be the place. I'll run it by the people interested....
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The athletic director is sucking face w/high school girls? Uhhh...that is a distinct NO-NO.
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Sucking face? Or sucking up? Very different meanings. :)
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He said 'sucking face' - that still has the same meanings it did when we were in school I'd wager.