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Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2009-02-05, 16:18:45

Title: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Edward on 2009-02-05, 16:18:45
Anyone else see this thread on myArmoury?

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=153467 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=153467)

It started out sounding like a question about doing simple drills with sharps, but then they OP clarified that he was talking about a friend of his who was supposedly sparring with sharps. Quickly the thread turned into a discussion about minimum safety standards, and examples from ARMA where control and precision are assumed to be sufficient replacements for safety gear in some cases.

As seems to frequently happen, I posted a reply and the thread died. I used to find that irritating. Now I look at it as having the final word. lol :)

I've been expecting someone to drastically misinterpret my meaning, and then the thread would continue, but it hasn't happened. I guess that's good. :)
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Das Bill on 2009-02-05, 17:05:39
I had followed the thread, but I didn't feel like getting involved. I felt enough people had made the points I would have made.

Short answer: Sparring with sharps is stupid beyond words. Unbelievably stupid.

Training with sharps, however, is a different story, but only in certain forms of training. There are certain Japanese swordsmanship schools that do certain paired kata with sharpened weapons. Each step is prearranged, and the practitioners have also been studying for years. There is definately a level of danger involved, but ultimately there is a high level of control, particularly because each person knows what the other is going to do. I know Guy Windsor occassionally has his advanced students do certain drills with sharps (but again, these are drills, not free play). And in the thread, someone brought up how the Italian master Viggiani recommended training with sharps to force the student to really worry about not being hit, but they failed to point out that Viggiani was also not talking about free fencing.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2009-02-05, 18:50:28
heh, sometimes i wonder if anyone ever listens or just wants to put forth their own opinions to be heard over there. 

ya i totally agree, training with sharps is ok only at high, HIGH lvls or under direct supervision of a trainer that is TRAINED in practicing in sharps, but for the average person or low lvl, its stupid. just stupid. i remember with Ed and I used to play around with starfires. man u wore thick gloves, fencing masks, padded coats etc for that "just in case" something happened. and those were crowbar blunts
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Edward on 2009-02-05, 19:36:12

Short answer: Sparring with sharps is stupid beyond words. Unbelievably stupid.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Practice drills, cutting practice, etc are a different story. But I find it hard to imagine that anyone is stupid enough to free-fence with sharps.

Hehe, I remember playing with the Starfires. :) Medieval crowbars... that about sums it up. But we weren't really trying to hit each other either, it was slow-speed attacks and parries, and we still geared up anyway.

Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir James (Fiat Lux) on 2009-04-06, 17:47:43
The Fiat Lux uses Starfires pretty frequently for our steel fights. Occasionally there's an Albion or 2, but the lifetime warranty is nice. We've broken more than one of these things over someone's head!
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Edward on 2009-04-06, 19:18:13
I remember watching some of the combat down at NCRF last year with the Starfires. It makes a lot more sense in harness, like your group was doing. Last time I played with mine, we were in basic fencing gear, and it was a lot more frightening than working with Albions, I must say! :)

You're right about the lifetime warranty. I sometimes wish some of the other manufacturers would offer that, but I suspect that the warranty is what prompted Starfire to make their swords so beefy, rather than the other way around.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir James (Fiat Lux) on 2009-04-06, 19:35:54
Those things make one hell of a sound when they break, too. We still have a broken one that we've been meaning to (for 2 years now!) get replaced, but it makes for such a great conversation piece!

Especially side-by-side with the helm it was broken over. Oh, the crease!
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Brian on 2014-10-28, 08:06:57
Heh, necromancing an almost six year old thread just might be a record for this forum! ;)

Here is a really interesting video pertaining to the topic title.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T21uXihIZcI#t=130 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T21uXihIZcI#t=130)

Roland seriously knows his stuff and brings some stark reality to some of the misconceptions some folks have of HEMA training with blunts. Just as synthetics react differently from aluminum and steel blunts, so too does sharps verses blunts.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir William on 2014-10-28, 16:21:16
I have never fenced with a sharp so this is news to me- thanks for sharing Sir Brian.  I wonder how many other people might automatically assume that the differences between a sharp and blunt are inconsequential, other than the obvious.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2014-10-28, 17:16:26
I did this with semi sharp Spears once. It was fantastically eye opening.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-10-28, 17:52:35

Yeah, several groups are working with sharps now, to get an understanding of how it influences the moves. It's not all immediately intuitive, and some of the plays in the manuscripts make a lot more sense when using sharps. There are those moments of "so THAT's why they said to do this..."
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2014-10-28, 20:59:21
Real metal spears hook & disengage in fascinating and sometimes subtle ways that cannot come through as easily in simulators. And I'm not even talking about the blade edge either but the base of the blade where it comes into the shaft. As well there are tip & edge cuts that become very obvious in that instance.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Martyn on 2014-10-30, 03:31:29
Good update Sir Brian
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Ian on 2014-10-30, 14:55:58
Saw that video when Dimicator posted it.  Fascinating stuff.  It all goes back to context!
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-10-31, 00:22:00
Hmm, maybe Me and Aiden should practice with sharps one day.
Although I don't think many would deem that Wise.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Brian on 2014-10-31, 07:49:56
Hmm, maybe Me and Aiden should practice with sharps one day.
Although I don't think many would deem that Wise.

NO! That would be the epitome of foolhardiness! That level of training should only be attempted after many years of rebated steel training.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Ian on 2014-10-31, 14:57:35
Hmm, maybe Me and Aiden should practice with sharps one day.
Although I don't think many would deem that Wise.

NO! That would be the epitome of foolhardiness! That level of training should only be attempted after many years of rebated steel training.

+1000

Don't even think about partner training with sharps until you've got years of significant experience under your belt
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-10-31, 17:31:00
Hmm, maybe Me and Aiden should practice with sharps one day.
Although I don't think many would deem that Wise.

NO! That would be the epitome of foolhardiness! That level of training should only be attempted after many years of rebated steel training.

+1000

Don't even think about partner training with sharps until you've got years of significant experience under your belt

And good health insurance. And good life insurance, in case the health insurance is irrelevant (aka you die).
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-10-31, 18:03:49
Hmm, maybe Me and Aiden should practice with sharps one day.
Although I don't think many would deem that Wise.

This is something that only the instructors and their most trusted advanced-level students are doing. I would suggest NOT doing it without the supervision of an established instructor.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-11-03, 22:51:11
 :)
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-05-06, 02:40:06
I saw the video and it is good one.  Makes a good point.

Practicing with sharps is high level and must be done with an instructor always. 

I have held a sharp longsword before and after trying a few cuts and thrusts I feel the differences between it and a blunt. 
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir William on 2016-05-19, 19:21:27
I'll be honest, I never saw the point of training with sharps- it adds a level of danger and excitement but there's no real way you can practice- even without the intent to do harm, the chances are a good deal higher that an injury can be sustained.  Just my $0.02.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2016-05-20, 03:19:37
I've done slow work with sharp spears. It was enlightening.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Lord Dane on 2016-05-23, 00:28:25
I train with sharps but with excessively due care & caution for surroundings (and my limbs) when thrusting or cutting. But mostly with blunted steel, and rattan.  :o
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir James A on 2016-05-27, 00:51:04
I'll be honest, I never saw the point of training with sharps- it adds a level of danger and excitement but there's no real way you can practice- even without the intent to do harm, the chances are a good deal higher that an injury can be sustained.  Just my $0.02.

There are some legitimate reasons for it.

The bind - sharp swords BITE. Steel blunts don't. Things like the windings are infinitely more interesting with a sharp sword. With a blunt, oops, I got stabbed. With a sharp sword, there is that split second transition from "hey look a bind" in which you evacuate your bowels because you can actually feel the oppononts sword release from the bind and start moving towards you.

Blade presence - weight and length on blunts are pretty close to historical style, but there is a difference in blade presence with two sharp swords. I can't put it into technical terms, but there is a completely different level of fear and respect when dealing with a sharp sword. Safety gear and blunts are a big artifact in fencing where we aren't nearly as worried to have "double kills" or to get hit repeatedly. Granted that's the nature of training, but without the "real life" fight with a true sharp sword looming anywhere in the future, we train under a different mentality than our predecessors did.

But I would NEVER advocate anyone ever doing it without the guidance - and probably participation - of a very knowledgeable, experienced, and safe instructor.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir William on 2016-05-27, 14:17:42
Sort of like live rounds used in a field exercise?  I see what you are saying...I suppose it is a natural advancement in fencing to take it there. 
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2016-05-30, 00:05:58
On Thursday I was working some winding and grappling techniques with my student. I had a super hard time explaining why you didn't get close to the other guy and that you HAD to solve for the sword first & always as well as try and finish the guy with your weapon and not your fists or feet. He has a 7th Dan in TKD and a 3rd Dan in Hapkido and has faced knife weilders in the street before, but explaining how very damned lethal swords were in an unarmoured fight might have been better helped by using a sharp. Heck a metal blunt would have been more useful (we have his shinai only which are less than optimum).

Some of the stuff from here was included in the lesson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir James A on 2016-05-30, 14:58:14
Sort of like live rounds used in a field exercise?  I see what you are saying...I suppose it is a natural advancement in fencing to take it there. 

Much like that, yes. As far as I know, there's never a point where you are shooting live rounds at each other... nor in any exercises with sharps should you be actively trying to connect or injure each other. A simple zorn-zorn bind with a winding that doesn't begin a thrust is enough to give you that "oh @#$!!" moment that feders don't have.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Lord Dane on 2016-05-31, 23:27:44
Great videos. :)
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-06-01, 01:24:18
From this discussion on practicing with sharps, all I can say is that when I imagine training with sharps, this is what comes to my mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99H94CzB1Ik (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99H94CzB1Ik)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWNi3BHkrB4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWNi3BHkrB4)
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Edward on 2016-06-01, 12:50:54

As a reminder, even doing solo work with sharps, for test-cutting and the like, can be quite dangerous.

Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8vlQPsGlGY

Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-06-01, 14:35:11
Quote
As a reminder, even doing solo work with sharps, for test-cutting and the like, can be quite dangerous.

Point taken.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir William on 2016-06-01, 15:51:32
Reminds me of the guy who accidentally sheathed his sword in his thigh instead of the saya he was aiming for.  I think he was distracted momentarily by someone coming in?  In any case, yea...nasty accident.  Stay safe, gentlemen.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Lady Jouster on 2016-06-01, 19:17:37
Point taken.

Literally! Ouch...
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2016-06-02, 01:34:36
Shared it around.

At least the guy could laugh a bit about it.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir James A on 2016-06-02, 23:45:09
Make sure to watch the damage recap at the end. It looks simple, but the stitches and explanation... ick.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-06-05, 14:28:45
Yep, from watching this video, I know what damage a katana can do, but a Longsword?  I would not want to know myself, could be very very painful.
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir William on 2016-06-07, 19:12:18
Yep, from watching this video, I know what damage a katana can do, but a Longsword?  I would not want to know myself, could would be very very painful.

There, fixed that for ya.  ;)
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-06-09, 01:42:42
I see your point Sir William, thanks.  ;)
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Lord Dane on 2016-06-11, 12:42:43
Good videos, Josh. :)
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-06-15, 13:36:49
Lord Dane:  Thank you, I wanted to set the best examples of practicing with sharps so that everyone benefits from a right example while acknowledging the dangers that come with it. 
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Lord Dane on 2016-06-17, 04:27:45
Now we know how being 'sharp' is associated with the intelligence factor. Someone must have been lacking common sense & careless one day during swordplay & next thing you know.. Eureka!!! A catch phrase is born.  :P That was sharp thinking. lol
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-06-20, 12:24:14
Quote
Now we know how being 'sharp' is associated with the intelligence factor. Someone must have been lacking common sense & careless one day during swordplay & next thing you know.. Eureka!!! A catch phrase is born.  :P That was sharp thinking. lol

Lol
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Lord Dane on 2016-06-22, 18:54:32
Hmm, maybe Me and Aiden should practice with sharps one day.
Although I don't think many would deem that Wise.

NO! That would be the epitome of foolhardiness! That level of training should only be attempted after many years of rebated steel training.

DITTO: NO fighting with live sharps until you are experienced and properly monitored (especially with each other unless you want to be one sibling less).  You guys needs lots of years before that is even attempted alone. 
Title: Re: Practicing with sharps
Post by: Sir Nate on 2016-06-27, 00:35:56
OW