ModernChivalry.org

Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir James A on 2014-09-06, 17:21:37

Title: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-09-06, 17:21:37
A quick post on some of the largest more commonly used swords in history. Cartoons / anime sometimes show comically over-sized swords. And most of us are familiar with the "they weigh 20 pounds" myths. Here's a few pictures of historical swords, with specs:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1510414_333625076776454_450440611_n.jpg?oh=c65b8820ebaf267ce632f629d295e2ed&oe=54985AAA&__gda__=1418751819_ad4cb022ab7b75924c6cfcac52ca9ca6)
click for image (https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1510414_333625076776454_450440611_n.jpg?oh=c65b8820ebaf267ce632f629d295e2ed&oe=54985AAA&__gda__=1418751819_ad4cb022ab7b75924c6cfcac52ca9ca6)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10557217_437232249749069_1931863262653286433_n.jpg?oh=1c5da36e713f437653a276f400d20ff8&oe=548FC853&__gda__=1419849573_0054239d1ed5f440e5298ac156714cc7)
click for image (https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10557217_437232249749069_1931863262653286433_n.jpg?oh=1c5da36e713f437653a276f400d20ff8&oe=548FC853&__gda__=1419849573_0054239d1ed5f440e5298ac156714cc7)

(Specs are directly off the post I got the picture from, I just added the equivalents in inches)

General
Overall Length: 177.8 cm (70 inches)
Weight: 3.576 kg (7.88 pounds)
Balance point from quillon block: 9.4 cm (3 3/4 inches)

Grip
Hilt overall length: 47.7 cm (18 3/4 inches)
Grip Length: 41.1 cm (16 inches)

Blade
Blade Length quillon block to tip: 130.1 cm (51 inches)
Blade Width at quillon block: 4.7 cm (1.85 inches)
Blade Width 2 inches from tip: 4.8 cm (1.89 inches)
Blade Thickness at quillon block: 0.7 cm (1/4 inch)
Blade Thickness 2 inches from tip: 0.15 cm (0.06 inches)

Yes, the crossguard / quillions are on backwards / upside down. They said the pommel is welded on and the museum will not let them disassemble to fix it. Curse you, Victorian era reconstructionists!

But note, that at just shy of 6 feet long, the sword is still slightly less than 8 pounds. And these are BIG swords.

The typical longswords weighs in at 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 pounds.

These swords were regional, and only used towards the end of the era of armor. You wouldn't see them with crusaders or transitional knights. But they did exist, and they are historically accurate if used in the proper time and region.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-09-07, 02:56:06

Yeah, the really huge zweihanders and the like are at the outside edge of what you might consider useful, and they still tend to be in the 6-8 pound range. If they're any heavier than that, they're probably just bearing swords (use for parade, not fighting).
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2014-09-07, 05:53:27
Hassan can haz chop?
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-09-07, 17:28:52
Great swords are great. Sort of like... Great Helms
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-09-07, 18:30:12
I believe the technical term for those is: "Big Friggin' Swords". ;)

So what was the purpose of a sword that long? Were they handled kinda-sorta like a polearm?
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Paulus von Zurich on 2014-09-08, 14:11:18
I got to handle an original 16th cent flamberge several years ago. The weight was manageable and there was a little whip to the blade. I was surprised at how well it was balanced, since it was easily six foot overall. IIRC the cross was easily 18" across.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-09-08, 21:50:34
I believe the technical term for those is: "Big Friggin' Swords". ;)

So what was the purpose of a sword that long? Were they handled kinda-sorta like a polearm?
If I am not mistaken, they were in more common use in the 16th century, and few men were actually trained to use it. A weapon of that size did not usually have a scabbard and was carried on the shoulder.
They were used during the height of armor, how they were used I would guess were for armored opponents (armored guy! Give me a bigger sword ;))
Probably a very good weapon for de horsing someone.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir Brian on 2014-09-09, 07:29:11
The zweihanders were primarily used against pike formations to cut off the pike heads.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir William on 2014-09-09, 13:29:42
Overcompensating, maybe?  lol
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Paulus von Zurich on 2014-09-09, 16:45:21
Overcompensating, maybe?  lol

Admit it, you like them too!
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-09-09, 21:35:58
The zweihanders were primarily used against pike formations to cut off the pike heads.

^ Yep, primarily this.

They were also capable of large crowd control against primarily unarmored foes. Dr Mondschein did a great job on this book about them and their use: http://www.amazon.com/The-Two-Handed-Sword-Mondschein-Ph-D/dp/0978902289/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410298389&sr=8-1&keywords=ken+mondschein+sword (http://www.amazon.com/The-Two-Handed-Sword-Mondschein-Ph-D/dp/0978902289/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410298389&sr=8-1&keywords=ken+mondschein+sword)

I read it a couple years ago when it first came out, and really need to read it again.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-09-09, 23:43:29
The zweihanders were primarily used against pike formations to cut off the pike heads.

^ Yep, primarily this.

They were also capable of large crowd control against primarily unarmored foes. Dr Mondschein did a great job on this book about them and their use: http://www.amazon.com/The-Two-Handed-Sword-Mondschein-Ph-D/dp/0978902289/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410298389&sr=8-1&keywords=ken+mondschein+sword (http://www.amazon.com/The-Two-Handed-Sword-Mondschein-Ph-D/dp/0978902289/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410298389&sr=8-1&keywords=ken+mondschein+sword)

I read it a couple years ago when it first came out, and really need to read it again.

Completely off beat from what I thought.
Hmm, how were they used in tournaments?
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-09-10, 13:28:35

Montante and Spadone swords (often in the 5-footish range) have a lot of techniques around them that are designed to be fluid, and keep the sword in motion without fighting against its momentum. They're for crowd control and that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Paulus von Zurich on 2014-09-10, 14:40:57
Don't discount the physiological fear it would create.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir William on 2014-09-10, 20:07:04
Overcompensating, maybe?  lol

Admit it, you like them too!

Yea, but I don't want one, per se.  For some reason, I'm seeing really large guys wielding those big swords- even at 6-8 lbs, its heavier than I'd like.  But then, I also don't know the techniques in using them so that's part of it.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2014-09-11, 16:57:31
Quote
But then, I also don't know the techniques in using them so that's part of it.

Having trained with Count Sir Thyjothrekr Eiriksen of Calintir I can can say with confidence that I do. Plus my SCA longsword is actually 53"OAL. (It's the one in my vid)

Meanwhile.... in the midwest....
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/q92/p843x403/10614145_10204849316293824_177494290186157988_n.jpg?oh=15d793990d2aa4075b43cc276d63b28b&oe=5625D819)

Made by Arms & Armor (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=835434183167685&id=127639720613805).
"I am surprised. Completely and utterly surprised. I was wondering what a 5.8lb, 64 inch, ~5 inch bp sword would feel like, and I'm completely speechless. It feels goooooood. I'm most surprised by just how much is EASIER than with my trainer, including altibaxo and forward cuts (into the high forward position.) I do not feel the weight, it just moves. It wants to move, and does so with graceful, deadly, authority. I think I did the montante proud with my montante. My sharp longsword is all good, but this sword is infinitely more deadly. I love it." -James Clark, owner.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-09-11, 20:38:42
I.... I want that. NOW!  :o  8)
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Lord Dane on 2014-09-12, 22:10:56
Patience young Padawan. :) Toys come with time, training, funding and wife's approval. :)
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-09-16, 11:07:31
The HEMA group down here has montante wasters and we usually have a class or two from time to time...I love the weight and using its energy to continue to the next move...if you YouTube montante exercises there are some beautiful examples of the forms.
Title: Re: Huge swords - the Montante
Post by: Justin on 2015-07-05, 17:19:13
Not going to lie, I would definitely like to have a ridiculously huge sword, just for the fun of it. I can't imagine to many people would want to engage you if you were toting around a giant heavy blade. I imagine that their first thought would be along the lines of "No way. Cant even begin to block that. One hit and its over."