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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Silvanus on 2013-05-07, 16:15:17
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Some of you gentlemen know my kit. After Sir Brian's demonstration this past weekend wherein he easily buffeted me about the head and neck with a waster, I have concluded that I need more protective head gear.... I have my heart set on this one:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0351&name=Crusader+Flat+Top+Helmet (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0351&name=Crusader+Flat+Top+Helmet)
Any historical objections? Or better ideas?
Silvanus
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That is a good choice and it is certainly heavy enough gauge steel. :)
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that is a great helmet and i have been looking at it myself. but it's not in your time frame. it's slightly off from the mac bible version and thats about 1250s to later. if you remember my helmet from the weekend was set at 1210 and it had no back plate to it. so you may have to fudge your time later or just wear something for safety and forget the time frame. or...... get a helm sorta like mine, and have someone add a "hidden" back plate by maile
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I have to agree with Sir Wolf. One of the best ways to have an earlier period helmet but with the needed protection is having the back covered with mail or leather. I myself, am doing a late 12th early 13th century kit as well. Basically Third Crusade or right thereafter.
here's one extant example and some inspiration. Also Sir Wolf's recently painted helmet is definitely a good one.
(1200-1215) Shrine of Charlemagne
(http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007g10a.jpg)
(http://www.wulflund.com/img/goods/en/medium/templar-helmet-with-copper-belt_2.jpg)
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/027[1].JPG)
here's another idea where the guy covered it with leather scales, kinda cool
(http://www.hospitaalridders.nl/img/photos/2844/2844/2844_original.jpg)
It seems the Phrygian helm can be dated a bit earlier than the others, but as far as I've personally found, I'm using that as heresay.
(http://westcoastarmoury.com/images/ItaloNorman.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa184/Donngal/Daves%20armour%20and%20stuff/Crusdaer%20armour/Blackcrusaderfluted.jpg)
As a note though, that's just because I haven't been able to research that particular helm that much, all I've found are tertiary examples and people on forums saying it's earlier. Usually those people can be correct, but I like finding that out for myself. Also, I'm concerned if the flutes would be construed as "excessive" in light of what the Templars believed and carried. If it is capable of being used within a Templar kit, than realistically that's the helm I'm going to go with.
Hope this helps! I'm making a Knights Templar kit, and a secular early 13th century kit as well. My pinterest http://pinterest.com/tanukidomo/13th-17th-cent-europewma/ (http://pinterest.com/tanukidomo/13th-17th-cent-europewma/) has a lot on there now. I'm using it as my inspiration database. It isn't just Crusades era, but there's a ton there that is. It'll be cool to see what you come up with.
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I actually have one of those topfhelms with the "muzzle" of sorts. I think it's period for the third crusade era. I think a good solution would be you could get one of those types of helms and wear a THICK padded arming cap covered with maille. Sure it wont be as protective as plate but I have fought with my friend in mine and it worked pretty well, of course if you have a big enough coif you could always add a plate of boiled leather to the back UNDER the coif which would protect rather well and since it's under the maille no one would ever notice.
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That leather piece under the coif is a good idea Sir Ulrich. Unfortunately, the SCA and Adrian Empire require the back of the helm to be plate, and I believe for good reasons. So it all depends on what Silvanus is looking at the helm to be used for.
I, unfortunately am going to have two helms, at the least. One for live steel and SCA combat, and one that's completely period for DOK type re-creation.
Also, if you've ever suffered bad whiplash, you'll know why the back of the head is important to cover... let alone if you've ever had the disfortune to see bad back of head trauma as I have. I'll always do a little bit extra myself.
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Thanks for the feedback, gentlemen. Looks like I'll need to do more research if I want something in my period. The bottom line is I need some real head protection for sparring. Otherwise I am happy with my current helm for walking around. Attaching the mail at the back of a more period helm will look nice, but it will not protect my poor head and neck from the likes of Sir Brian.
I do like this one, Patricius.
(http://www.hospitaalridders.nl/img/photos/2844/2844/2844_original.jpg)
So its either that one or something like Sir Wolfs but with maille for either one.
My neck hurts.
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Silvanus,
all of the helms I showed you are period, with modifications to protect the back of the head. Then you just cover the back of it like that Hospitaller had with his leather scales or mail, as you've said :) just throwing out ideas as I'm still trying to decide mine as well.
here's some images of those helms showing the backs a bit better:
Steel Mastery:
(http://steel-mastery.com/images/products/full/frisian-helm-with-bar-grill-and-plate-neck-protection-2.jpg)
(http://steel-mastery.com/images/products/full/fluted-norman-helmet-4.jpg)
IceFalcon
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/027[1].JPG) - that helm is designed and built for BOTN!! plenty tough and protective
(http://store.fastcommerce.com/_staticProxy/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/025.JPG)
West Coast Armoury
(http://westcoastarmoury.com/images/it2.jpg)
I'm either going with the simple flat top-helm with simple front face and hidden back protection, much like the Hospitaller
or
A Phrygian Italo-Norman with flutes, simple front face plate, and hidden back protection myself. And I'm doing Third Crusade, 1190 era. Also of note there's a topic over at MyArmoury and ArmourArchive about an extant, archeaological find of a faceplate tophelm... although there's still debate on if it is in fact a real one. When I find that topic again, I'll post it here. Hopefully Sir Ian sees this, I think I saw him mention that helm either here or elsewhere.
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I, unfortunately am going to have two helms, at the least
I believe you meant "fortunately" and not "unfortunately" ;)
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I, unfortunately am going to have two helms, at the least
I believe you meant "fortunately" and not "unfortunately" ;)
I guess it's all in the eyes of the beholder! Touche Sir James! Touche
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Well, here is one that I have found that I think will fit the historical bill.
(http://www.outfit4events.com/runtime/cache/images/productBig/pef_0613a.jpg)
At this site: http://www.outfit4events.com/usd/product/466-early-crusader-great-helm/?decorative=nocategory%2F557-medieval-costumes-ladies%2Fcategory%2F173-cloak-pins%2Fcategory%2F8-axes%2F (http://www.outfit4events.com/usd/product/466-early-crusader-great-helm/?decorative=nocategory%2F557-medieval-costumes-ladies%2Fcategory%2F173-cloak-pins%2Fcategory%2F8-axes%2F)
I really can't find anything online produced in the States with this quality for this tight period. This is from the Czech Republic.
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that is nice.
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That is a nice period helm! I only have two concerns about it:
1) is that enough back of head protection?
2) the cross as a nasal, from everything I have found within secondary sources on the Knights Templar (effigies, paintings, murals, frescos) would be considered superfluous and against the Rule.
Beyond those two concerns, it's a nice helm!
Also, TherionArms, which as far as I know is a dealer of sorts, not a manufacturer (his stuff looks like GDFB) is in the US with US customer service. Here's some of his helms for consideration:
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1275.jpg)
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1275.html (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1275.html) looks more 13th century though
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1106.jpg)
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1106.html (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1106.html) realistically this will be my choice as it fits function and doesn't have anything that could be construed as "superfluous"
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1404b.jpg)
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1404.html (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1404.html) this one too is cool, although it's not quite a Norman, and not quite a Phrygian, and to be honest, it just seems to be a "generic compromise" although a nice helm still.
just other ideas I thought to throw out there. Also if you portray a turcopole (temporary member of the Knights Templar, who could have been married even, although their wives would be in a convent for the period) you'd have more leeway on the helm, as it is and was one of the more expensive pieces of equipment.
YIS
B. Patricius
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Patricius, thanks for all your help and input. You are a great resource. I did see those helms from Therion, from whom I've ordered before happily. But I was under the impression that this helm - (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1106.jpg)
was not quite my period due to the fact that it has plate protection in the back.... And I like the third image also, but was concerned that the eye slots were too large for safety purposes. Well, if you think that the Therion is adequate, I can opt for that one. My specific kit is that of a Templar sergeant. And while I have great respect for the Turcopoles for their aid and skill, the only other persona I could ever adopt would be that of a full Templar Kinght, perhaps one day.
Thanks again. All your help and suggestions are always welcome.
Silvanus
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was not quite my period due to the fact that it has plate protection in the back.... And I like the third image also, but was concerned that the eye slots were too large for safety purposes. Well, if you think that the Therion is adequate, I can opt for that one. My specific kit is that of a Templar sergeant. And while I have great respect for the Turcopoles for their aid and skill, the only other persona I could ever adopt would be that of a full Templar Kinght, perhaps one day.
Thanks again. All your help and suggestions are always welcome.
Silvanus
Silvanus, I totally understand where you're coming from. I, in fact, need to have two personas because I wish to be a full Templar and get it "right" for demonstrations... but I also need a secular 13th century knight for my lady that I can give her all the chivlarous pomp and circumstance she deserves! ;D ;)
It's interesting, the helmet that you posted from therion that you said you already own
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1106.jpg) is in fact the one that I wish to use for my Templar portrayal when protection is not needed (like wandering around like a BAMF at RenFaires and DOK ;) ) I love that helm as it is so simple.
On that note, I believe that helm is as close to period as we can get for late 12th century with a face-plate other than the phrygians which had faceplates starting earlier than the standard "Latin" fair of the Franks. From what I've learned, they picked up the earliest form of Phrygian from the Saracens, and then saw their usefulness and used them. The development of that helm in the Mediterranean is well documented and it seems to pick up from there.
I believe the helm that you own, and that I want, is the safest of the "Latin" styles for our portrayals. It has no "extras" at all, which is paramount for a full Templar be they SGT or Knight. As a general rule, I play it safest first, and the compromises in my kit I make (for example right now I'm wearing butted mail) I explain the why of that, and what was appropriate.
The helm you posted, as nice as it is, I don't think it'd offer any more back of head protection than the one you already own from Albion. Beyond that, I observed something that may in fact lead to more inspiration:
I believe the first helm you posted from Cult of Athena: (http://www.kultofathena.com/images/AB0351.jpg)
is in fact the same helm as the one that you and I both enjoy that Hospitaller wearing!
(http://www.hospitaalridders.nl/img/photos/2844/2844/2844_original.jpg)
(http://www.hospitaalridders.nl/img/photos/2960/2960/2960_original.jpg)
note the nasal and the form of the jawline, they're as close as one can get to identical! I believe he just added the leather scales to it, and the leather trim above.
Also another helm I forgot to post on here that I enjoy that has precedence to ca. 1200 by GDFB on Therion's site:
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1128d.jpg)
I also did find out that in fact Cult of Athena and TherionArms both carry GDFB.
My only concern with one that has full plate on the lower rather than bars is the weight. Bars, hidden with a mail or leather aventail can look quite amazing. There's a local KSCA that wears this Norman helmet from windrosearmory
(http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/images/armour_images/H-339.jpg)
which I then found they also have an Italo-Norman/Phrygian as well
(http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/images/armour_images/H-349.jpg)
I have personally held, worn and fought in Sir Christopher's Aventailed Norman. It's beyond amazing. Also, looking at his avatar here, Thorsteinn appears to wear a similar helmet in SCA combat.
I also agree the eye slots are most crucial. The ability to see, while protecting our eyes is crucial, especially in any kind of visored/faced helm. Adrian Empire for example, has a 3/4" in ANY direction maximum distance for their eyeslots for rebated steel combat. A rule I firmly believe is worth it. That's also why I've just accepted I will have two helms:
1 for living history
1 for combat
that may be exactly the route you may want to take as well. Especially since if I read your reply correctly you already own probably my favorite "period" tophelm for a Templar kit.
And it is a pleasure to share what I know. I've learned all I have from the humble chair and laptop with the help of google and triple checking sources through museum archives. I admit, my classes in Archaeology help, but it by no means makes me an expert. Any and all mistakes are my own. Also, if you'd like to check out my pinterest board: http://pinterest.com/tanukidomo/13th-17th-cent-europewma/ (http://pinterest.com/tanukidomo/13th-17th-cent-europewma/) it's fairly widespread in eras and cultures, but it is a bit Holy Orders centric ;)
Also, just last year Sir Ulrich picked up this helm from Sir William
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/403832_4382308919156_174854569_n.jpg)
here's his thread: http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?topic=2009.0 (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?topic=2009.0)
maybe they (Sir Ulrich and Sir William) will be able to help us out as well.
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Sir William got it from Revival.us. It's a model usually only available in Europe, but Sir William bought it but didnt want it for some reason so he sold it to me for a good price. I use it for my 12th century Teutonic knight kit which I wore at Days of Knights. I quite like it, even with my arming cap and coif it's STILL a bit tight, as I have a massive head. People constantly commented on how it was "too big for my head" on Facebook, it wasn't if you wore it over an arming cap and coif like it was intended. Without one the flat top slides around and it doesnt fit the right way.
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Ulrich, have you considered maybe padding the ring inside the helm? By that I mean padding the inner edge so that you basically have a donut shape? Then when you put it on, the top of your coif makes contact with the helm while the donut serves to bolster the helm around the crown of your head, making it more stable. It was a thought I had when I first got it; I just wanted a different sort of helm is all.
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Well, I've narrowed it down to one (or two) of these three possibilities. Please let me know of any vetoes!
http://www.paulchenhanweiswords.com/flat-top-crusader-helmet-large.aspx (http://www.paulchenhanweiswords.com/flat-top-crusader-helmet-large.aspx)
http://www.tienda-medieval.com/en/medieval-helmets/2971-Helm-flat-bald-functional.html# (http://www.tienda-medieval.com/en/medieval-helmets/2971-Helm-flat-bald-functional.html#)
http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-20764-crusader-helmet-steel.aspx# (http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-20764-crusader-helmet-steel.aspx#)
At this point, I just want a new helm. For sparring with wasters or steel, I will just have to break the rules and wear a full great helm even though they arrived after my death at Hattin. That will be purchased later....
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I would rule out that 3rd option. One, the breaths are really big and so are the eyes, which could both be dangerous while sparring, and they're not historic looking. Medievalcollectibles.com is also a very hit or miss place to do business.
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I would rule out that 3rd option. One, the breaths are really big and so are the eyes, which could both be dangerous while sparring, and they're not historic looking. Medievalcollectibles.com is also a very hit or miss place to do business.
Bolding mine - Yes, it is a shot in the dark. Every time you order, it never says anything is out of stock. I had a Christmas present ordered in December, which was still on backorder at the beginning of this month with no ETA (in Feb they said Mar, then in Mar they said Apr...). I also ordered a helmet that turned out to be out of stock, and yes, after paying for them of course. Best bet if you want to order from them is to call to make sure it's available first.
As Ian said, the breaths in it are just way off. The Paul Chen would be my vote, since the eye slots look a bit more narrow. If you're going to fight at all, that's *critical*. Someone in Europe was killed with a synthetic sword when it went through his eye slot. Never take for granted that we're somehow immune to brutal accidents because we're 500-1,000 years more "advanced" than our favorite time periods. :)
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Agreed, Sirs Ian and James: the MC helm (3rd option) is out. :)
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Out of those three, I'd go for the hanwei.
But, playing devil's advocate as I often do, I wouldn't go for any of them. http://3turretsarmoury.info/Topfhelm-008.htm (http://3turretsarmoury.info/Topfhelm-008.htm), https://www.facebook.com/3turretsarmoury?fref=ts (https://www.facebook.com/3turretsarmoury?fref=ts), a good guy on the armourarchive going by the name "whonew" is currently making a run of crusader tophelms. He's making one for me as we speak. He'd also do custom additions to it if you asked as well, and his prices are right in there and he's a small one-guy armourer. (http://media-cache-ec2.pinimg.com/550x/7d/c2/cd/7dc2cdcfbd992d17bd899355da0e8a43.jpg)
I'd talk to him before you make a final decision. Just my .02.
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Out of those three, I'd go for the hanwei.
But, playing devil's advocate as I often do, I wouldn't go for any of them. http://3turretsarmoury.info/Topfhelm-008.htm (http://3turretsarmoury.info/Topfhelm-008.htm), https://www.facebook.com/3turretsarmoury?fref=ts (https://www.facebook.com/3turretsarmoury?fref=ts), a good guy on the armourarchive going by the name "whonew" is currently making a run of crusader tophelms. He's making one for me as we speak. He'd also do custom additions to it if you asked as well, and his prices are right in there and he's a small one-guy armourer. (http://media-cache-ec2.pinimg.com/550x/7d/c2/cd/7dc2cdcfbd992d17bd899355da0e8a43.jpg)
I'd talk to him before you make a final decision. Just my .02.
Done, Patrcius. I just sent an inquiry to his site. He does seem to have reasonable prices, too. Thanks!
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i love that one on the right, closest to the camera
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Oh yeah, 3Turrets is Les, he's a nice guy. Talked with him before, eventually planning to get a Wisby gaunt kit from him when I have some other ongoing projects wrapped up. Looks like he does good work.
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Oh yeah, 3Turrets is Les, he's a nice guy. Talked with him before, eventually planning to get a Wisby gaunt kit from him when I have some other ongoing projects wrapped up. Looks like he does good work.
I'm getting a pair of Wisby gauntlets to complete my new kit for more authentic 13-14th century look. Should arrive end of week.
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Lord Dane :) man oh man, you gotta post pics of those gauntlets when they arrive! I'm wanting the kit myself.
Les/3turretsarmoury/whonew is an amazing guy. I've been working with him this whole past week, and continually exceeds my expectations in communication. Excellent guy!
Silvanus, I sincerely doubt we'll be disappointed. I basically gave him a budget, my head measurements, and said have fun with them! I'm getting one in 12 or 14 gauge and then one as well in 16ga without the back of head protection for a living history caliber helm for demonstrations. I honestly can't decide which version of these helms I like more, so I sent him a bunch of references and told him to have fun with them. I have to thank Sir Ian for that part, he makes a good point that when a craftsman gets excited about your concept, it's always good to let them make their mark on it as well.
On Tuesday he's getting back to me with a shipping quote, and we'll be going from there. I can't wait to post up pics of the helm. If it's alright with Silvanus, I'd like to keep you all updated on my helms in this topic, since my kit is very similar.
Silvanus, glad I could help you brother! After you posted your first inquiry here, I started looking around as a man on a mission for some good tophelms. I can honestly say Les has exceeded my expectations thus far in our goals.
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3turrets...I recall that name. So that's whonew on the AA, is it? I'd love to have the helm on the right as well.
Silvanus, of the 3 options you put forth, I wouldn't choose any of them- not w/out checking a few things first. It seems you're aiming for as historical a look as possible- I'd look at some old exemplars first, note the construction method and then compare them w/your examples to see how close they come to it.
Let us know how it goes w/Les...he might get a couple more customers because of it.
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Let us know how it goes w/Les...he might get a couple more customers because of it.
For me anyway, it took a while to first hear from him, about a week or so, understandable. After that, via facebook or e-mail, he's been talking with me quite a bit. He did say this weekend was a holiday, so I wouldn't be hearing from him until Wednesday or so for the shipping quote. I'm really excited to find out what helms he's sending me. I like both of those helms, and that one on the right though, definitely looks different than anything else I've seen being made lately.