ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Joshua Santana on 2011-05-08, 22:53:10
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I need some help on what type of Gothic Harness to choose.
As you all know, I am ordering my harness from Mercenary Tailors (Thanks for the positive reviews!).
Here is a prototype design of my harness
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/sallet%20profile.jpg)
this is the helmet
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Bevor%202.JPG)
this is the bevor
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/espaulliers.jpg)
these are the shoulder pieces
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Besegues.jpg)
this is the besegues (steel rivets on mine)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/breast%20w%20tassets.jpg)
this is the breastplate
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/15th%20Century%20Arms.jpg)
this is the arm harness
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/fingered%20gauntlets.jpg)
this is the guantlets
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/legs.jpg)
this is the leg harness
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/two%20piece%20greave.jpg)
these are the greaves
the idea for this harness came form this picture
(http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/Images/PastProj%20Images/English/Fitzherbert/images/FITZ%20COMPLETE%2001_jpg.jpg)
the problem is this, what would be better: to go with the plate?
or to go with the placard and brigandine or breast and back plate combo (w/the placard)? or even change the espauliers ot the pualdrons with haute pieces?
(the brigandine or ring maile cotte if i intend on ordering one will be from mercenary tailors)
here is a visual sketch to make things easier
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Plackard.jpg)
the placard
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/black%20ringmaille%20front.JPG)
the brigandine or ring maile cotte
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/breastplate.jpg)
the breast plate and back plate
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Pauldrons%20w%20haute%20plates.jpg)
and the aforesaid pauldrons
What do you think brethren?
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(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Pauldrons%20w%20haute%20plates.jpg)
i apologize for not putting up this picture
and here is an example of what i mean by placard/brigandine design
(http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/Images/PastProj%20Images/German/Field%20Harness/images/GERMAN%20FIELD%20HARNESS%2001.JPG)
I hope this helps
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I like the placard/brig design. It's different and interesting.
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Almost every bit of armor you posted the pictures of is more of the italian style. High gothic had LOTS of flutes and punchwork and edging, while "regular" (I can't remember the specific term) gothic had some fluting and maybe a bit of punchwork.
This picture (http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/Images/PastProj%20Images/English/Fitzherbert/images/FITZ%20COMPLETE%2001_jpg.jpg) is quite interesting. The pauldron/spaulders are distinctly italian, as is the cuirass. The arms and cuisse both have fluting in the gothic style, and the bevor/sallet are gothic as well. Oddly enough, even the wildest of gothic armor had smooth greaves, so those are fine for either.
There's a few decent pictures of the more common gothic style armor here (http://swords.museumreplicas.com/search?SearchTerm=german+gothic+armor). There's also a set of 3-piece point-tied arms on the site somewhere. However, Allan at MercTailor will make custom fit armor for you - the armor in the link above is a one-size-fits-you-or-too-bad, and the articulation on it is much more decorative than functional (I have the cuirass, pauldrons, arms and legs).
I would probably skip on the besagews. The rounded ones seem, to me, more early period, and the later period gothic ones would have a good bit of fluted detail to them. My understanding is they aren't the most comfortable of items to wear and may bind up on you if you try to move your arms too much. They are kind of an "accessory" that you could add to the harness once you get the other bits assembled and interacting well.
Hope that helps.
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I think the pictures he used as examples were more to show the areas covered, rather than the armor design. He's going with Allan @ MT, his wares are more utilitarian and functional- beautiful in their simplicity, but I think he hearks more from the gothic influence than Italian. Perhaps he or Joshua'll weigh in and correct me if need be.
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Sir James: I thank you for your input on this. Yes Ia m aware that the look is more Italian than Gothic. What I am trying to get a standard look that will closely resemble Gothic as possible. I did message Allan on Facebook asking him if he and his team were capable of making a Gothic Suit this is his response:
"in the past we would take on single custom commisions to allow us to focus on our primary job of filling catalog orders. With the collapse of the economy we have been forced to change how we build and switch to a build to order ( Just In Time ) model ( over two years now ) which leaves us no meaningfull time to do this. All time goes to production ( we haven't had atime for R&D for new itmes in nearly a year and a half leaving 3/4 of a dozen new items sitting half done ). I'd like to be opptimistic and say that we'll be able to return to our previous manufacturing style but at this point I can't even beging to guess when/if that will be. Thanks very much for thinking of us however, its very much appreciated."
To clarify on a couple of points, the arm and leg harness is their 15th Century Arms and 15th/16th Century legs. Also the idea also came from these pictures on myarmory.com
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb307/ehrise/Armour/02-1.jpg)
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb307/ehrise/Armour/03-1.jpg)
If I have to change the suit from Gothic to Italian style or even 16th century Maximilian style. I would be fine, just means I would have to find other venues to make that possible.
If there are other Gothic Suits out there for consideration. I know only a couple and I would like to see if these would satisfy the standard High Gothic Style
(SCA)
http://armstreet.com/store/armor/full-gothic-knight-armor-suit-SCA (http://armstreet.com/store/armor/full-gothic-knight-armor-suit-SCA)
http://www.bestarmour.com/armour_1.html (http://www.bestarmour.com/armour_1.html)
(KA 1.1)
http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1470-p-573.html?cPath=101_133 (http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1470-p-573.html?cPath=101_133)
http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1480-p-1126.html?cPath=101_133 (http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1480-p-1126.html?cPath=101_133)
http://www.medievalrepro.com/Armour.htm (http://www.medievalrepro.com/Armour.htm)
(the German Gothic Armour)
I am aware that these are expensive, but i am working of means of income and payment method if I have no choice.
Sir William: You are most correct and that is what I am trying to achieve with the Merc Tailor harness and I do harken to the Gothic influence as the characteristic flutting, rolling and edging is not there.
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I agree on the fluting. I wonder if Allan will add fluting to his standard pieces? I know he tries to avoid custom work (as noted above), but it might be worth asking. He's done some really minor custom work for us before, like adding spring-pins to my GDFB helmet.
I would definitely go with larger pauldrons too, rather than the simple spaulders. The spaulders were much more common earlier, such as in the 14th. By the time you get into the high gothic armors, larger pauldrons with fluting would have been common.
BTW, I edited the previous post to put the word "SCA" before a link so that the tooltip wouldn't break the URL.
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Sir Edward: Thank you for the small adjustment! I will try on asking Allan to see if he is willing to do the flutting on his standard pieces (only five, the pauldrons, the breastplate and backplate, arm harness and leg harness). But if that isn't possible, I might do two things
1. Find another armory that will have a good gothic suit (i am thinking of historic enterprises ro back to old illusion armoring)
2. Or change the harness to a 16th Century/Maximilian Design by using Merc Tailors 16th Century Armor pieces and the helmet from either Therion Arms or Illusion Armoring (for either the Maximilian Armet or the Close Helm or Armet that Illusion has) if that helps with the "no flutting possible" scenario.
But I agree that i need to change the besegues to the pauldrons. I thank you brethren for the suggestions.
But which pauldron though
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/pauldron.jpg)
this one?
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Pauldrons%20w%20haute%20plates.jpg)
or this one?
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A thought just came to me!
Since Sir James has mentioned my original harness prototype is more Italian than High Gothic, why not go with the Italian look!
Everything from the Gorget, Breast and Back plates, Arm Harness, Leg Harness and Greaves I can order from Merc Tailor
(a good thing)
The helmet is not an issue, there is a good Italian Armet that Illusion Armoring makes that is good looking
http://p7.hostingprod.com/@illusionarmoring.com/1450.html (http://p7.hostingprod.com/@illusionarmoring.com/1450.html)
http://p7.hostingprod.com/@illusionarmoring.com/CFMHItalianArmet.html (http://p7.hostingprod.com/@illusionarmoring.com/CFMHItalianArmet.html)
Also, on a personal thought tangent, the Italian look closely resembles the Armor worn by Martin the Warrior Mouse (Redwall Novel Series)
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090720075346/redwall/images/7/7b/RubinTapestry.jpg)
(http://www.oocities.org/willowotter/martin_the_warrior.jpg)
(http://images.wikia.com/redwall/images/e/ec/Redwall-Matthias1.jpg)
Yes I am aware that this is a mouse dressed in armor, but that a draw as to why Redwall is a good book to read and a classic for kids!
If this helps, please let me know!
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You know, some of the Italian armors do look quite gorgeous. That's not a bad way to go. My biggest advice is of course to do what makes you happy, since you'll be the one wearing it. But factoring in cost and availability is always important too.
I've seen a similar armet up close, though I don't know who made it. Tom Leoni (VAF and Order of the Seven Hearts (http://www.salvatorfabris.com/)) has one, and is slowly building up an Italian harness. What he has so far looks great. I really like it.
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I've had fun watching your thought process and harness develop, thank you for sharing! I do not know enough about the period in question to assist you with the harness you desire, but I can comment on makers. I'm glad you have chosen Allan at The Mercenaries Tailor (http://www.merctailor.com/index.php) for some of your kit. My experience with him was wonderful and I've never read a contrary word on this forum, the Armour Archive or myArmoury. My breastplate (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=130) and small besegues (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=114) are perfect and were delivered a day earlier than promised!
My comments regarding The Mercenaries Tailor (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=208690&highlight=#208690)
I will offer you a word of caution regarding Illusion Armoring (http://www.illusionarmoring.com/). Let me begin by saying I've never had a problem with the quality of their products. My greaves and sabatons turned out very well and are built to withstand SCA rattan combat. As a matter of fact, my greaves were dented for the first time recently after several years of usage. It took a 7.5 foot polearm swing through a 180 degree arc to dent them and I don't even have a bruise to show for it! (Yes, that is an illegal SCA target area and an illegal swing, but that's another matter entirely. >:( ) Their wait times are what concerns me as they can be quite lengthy and often fail to meet quoted target dates. I encourage you to do your own research on AA (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/) and myA (http://www.myarmoury.com/home.html).
Illusion Armoring Sabatons, a mini-review (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20419)
Good luck and keep us posted!
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I just ran across this post (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=23013) on myArmoury which dovetails into my previous commentary. Scroll down to Guy H.'s post from May 9th (yesterday).
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For my two cents: I agree with Sir Edward:
"I would definitely go with larger pauldrons
Plate armor that covers the shoulders.
too, rather than the simple spaulders
Plate armor that covers the shoulders.
. The spaulders were much more common earlier, such as in the 14th. By the time you get into the high gothic armors, larger pauldrons with fluting would have been common."
The rest of your choices are very nice but the original pauldrons you selected are very plain and older looking. You need something grand, and while I like the second set of the more elaborate you selected I think the first is more with your style.
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I thank you all for your helpful advice and words of caution!
To everyone's relief, after careful consideration, I have then decided that to settle this headache of choosing what period.
It is German Gothic, the design (drum roll please...)
The German, High Gothic Placard/Brigandine Design.
This to me is the only thing that comes close to the flutting design that High Gothic Harnesses have.
So, here we go again starting from the helmet
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/sallet%20profile.jpg)
the bevor
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Bevor%202.JPG)
the pauldrons
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Pauldrons%20w%20haute%20plates.jpg)
the placard breastplate
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Plackard.jpg)
the brigandine armor (also from Merc Tailor's)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/black%20ringmaille%20front.JPG)
the arm harness (15th Century arms)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/15th%20Century%20Arms.jpg)
the gauntlets
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/fingered%20gauntlets.jpg)
the leg harness (the 15/16th Century Legs)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/legs.jpg)
and the greaves (two plate greaves)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/two%20piece%20greave.jpg)
Once again, I couldn't have made this decision without your guidance and experience.
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We look forward to seeing you in it, Sir Joshua...until then, let the drooling commence! Nice setup by the way...I'd been eyeing his cased/fitted greaves for some time now. Thinking of letting the splinted bracers/greaves I currently wear to my sister...if she can wear them, that is. :)
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I would personally go with the pauldrons without the haut guards (the pieces sticking up) ... every historical piece of armor, and the very few, that I've seen with those seem to be done as jousting reinforcement plates. I can't recall any foot combat armor with them, and it would be a truly NASTY thing to have on the field ... can you picture someone gently dropping their polearm between the haut guard and your neck, and giving that polearm a nice sideways yank? It's a nice little pivot point for a lever; instant broken neck, since that's the softest thing (between a polearm, steel armor and flesh). As such, they are also illegal in most combat groups, except sometimes as flexible material such as leather, and then only with LARPers. I don't recall seeing any gothic harnesses at all with them, only italian and english styles. But again, just my experiences and readings.
I would also ask Allan if he's willing to do a slight modification to the arm harness. Germans LOVE the point-tie styled arms (http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-31-german-gothic-rerebrace-vambrace-couter.aspx). It is a simple 3-piece set, and each piece is pointed (tied) to the arming coat/gambeson. I have that same set, which I was hoping to have enclosed, and sent the vambraces to Allan at MercTailor. The existing pieces were essentially useless, so I had him make me a whole new two-piece floating vambrace, albeit without fluting. Allan might be willing to make a set of floating arms. He was willing to flute my vambraces, and Allan does REAL fluting with a hammer and chisel - not the bead rolled econo-flutes from the MRL pieces - and I opted to keep the vambraces plain so that the rest of the harness wouldn't look worse in comparison. :)
If you have the funds, you could get the vambrace and rerebrace from Allan (and hopefully he would flute them), and you could buy the MRL gothic arms and use just the elbow cop; though, I would clean up the fluting on it if you can.
If you're handy with a hammer and a dull chisel, you could give it a go at fluting some pieces yourself. The plackard should be especially easy to do since it's so wide ... but absolutely test it out on a number of scrap sheets before putting a hammer to finished armor.
The two most important bits of advice I can really say ... one has been mentioned by Sir Edward already ... "do what makes you happy, since you'll be the one wearing it". The only other advice I can give is that almost no one has ideal plans and follows them set in stone forever, so you can always get started on it, and swap out bits and pieces along the way as you find opportunities to change it to your liking. When I was younger, I wanted a suit of armor, and sans helmet and gauntlets, I'm up to 4 harnesses now.
Once you get one kit almost done ... you're probably going to want another one or three. ;)
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Amen, Sir James- having only one kit gets old fast- need more diversion! Seriously, I have a conglomeration of armor pieces that I'll sometimes mix and match for aesthetic reasons, or rather, I WILL from this season on.
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hehehe tell me about it
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Yea, if anyone would know about that it'd be you, Sir Wolf...or Man-E-Faces if you will. lol
Used to be one of my favorite He-Man action figures.
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Thank you Sirs for the additional advice! This is most helpful!
Sir James: I will make the change, also another wild idea of mine was to ask Allan is he was willing to flute the arm harness, gauntlets, leg harness, placard breastplate and pauldrons (simple). I bet he will say no, but it is worth a try (or better yet, the plate breastplate and back plate flutted!) And I will talk to him adding the point tied style arms (I am looking for armor that I can put on myself with assistance, although I read that point tied armor pieces are the type you will need someone to help you tie them)
Sir William: the idea of getting more than one harness was an old plan of mine but I can see there are more fellow Knights who go along with this. My first plan was getting a german gothic style harness (all plate), an italian style plate harness and a Maximilian style Harness. All of them composed by arms, legs, breastplates and gauntlets by Merc's Tailors with different helmets from either Therion Arms or from GDFB.
German High Gothic Plate ideas
SCA
http://armstreet.com/store/armor/full-gothic-knight-armor-suit-SCA (http://armstreet.com/store/armor/full-gothic-knight-armor-suit-SCA)
(http://armstreet.com/catalogue/preview/full-gothic-knight-armor-suit-SCA.jpg)
http://www.bestarmour.com/armour_1.html (http://www.bestarmour.com/armour_1.html)
KA 1.1
(http://www.bestarmour.com/armour/armour_20b.jpg)
https://ssl.perfora.net/www.finditarmory.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=154dcae6481f791/shopdata/index.shopscript (https://ssl.perfora.net/www.finditarmory.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=154dcae6481f791/shopdata/index.shopscript)
(https://ssl.perfora.net/www.finditarmory.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=154dcae6481f791/shopdata/0040_Armor/0250_Plate+Armor/images/AH6007_309x429.jpg)
http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1470-p-573.html?cPath=101_133 (http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1470-p-573.html?cPath=101_133)
(http://historicenterprises.com/bmz_cache/e/e96b8ed8c5bdeb584fde581d268874b4.image.212x550.jpg)
or
http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1480-p-1126.html?cPath=101_133 (http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1480-p-1126.html?cPath=101_133)
(http://historicenterprises.com/bmz_cache/0/00cdfe97bf99fcbc4603304c07ee29db.image.441x550.jpg)
Italiain Plate Harness
http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-italoflemish-circa-1471-p-575.html?cPath=101_133 (http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-italoflemish-circa-1471-p-575.html?cPath=101_133)
(http://historicenterprises.com/bmz_cache/e/eeb3bc50edf1f70cd4b077fa2bfdea2a.image.455x550.jpg)
Or on a grand, wilder scheme with Merc's Tailors
Italian Harness
Helmet
either this
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1029.jpg)
or this
http://www.anshelmarms.com/helmets.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/helmets.html)
(http://www.anshelmarms.com/images/armor/threequarter_greatbascinet.jpg)
in conjunction with these
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/pauldron.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/breast%20w%20tassets.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/15th%20Century%20Arms.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/fingered%20gauntlets.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/legs.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/two%20piece%20greave.jpg)
or 16th Century Maximilian Style
Helmets
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1250.html
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1250.jpg)
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-9316-tudor-close-helm-26-300432.aspx (http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-9316-tudor-close-helm-26-300432.aspx)
(http://www.bytheswordinc.com/wolthuis.aspx?productid=9316&size=medium)
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-1634-maximilian-close-helm-ah-3824.aspx (http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-1634-maximilian-close-helm-ah-3824.aspx)
(http://www.bytheswordinc.com/wolthuis.aspx?productid=1634&size=medium)
in conjunction with these
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/stackneck%20gorget%20front.JPG)
(this applies to both Italian and Maximilian harnesses)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Peascod%20%20Breastplate.JPG)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/16th%20century%20arm1full.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/16th%20century%20leg%20reinforce.jpg)
also, same gauntlets, greaves and pauldrons might I add.
Now you all can see why this to me is a headache and I think the Maximilian is a lot easier than the italian or german, but like Sir Edward did say, go with what you like. To tell you the truth: I LIKE THEM ALL! I CAN'T MAKE A FINAL DECISION!
HELP!
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Another thing I forget
this helmet for the prototype Merc's Tailors Italian Harness (although it is a jousting armet I know but would quallify for an italian armet or maximilian armet!)
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/017.JPG)
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You have fantastic taste. I'd do terrible things for those Historic Enterprises harnesses. :)
Have you seen the famous Sigismund of Tyrol harness? That one is the epitome of high gothic - and immense cost to reproduce.
I think Allan might (don't quote me on it!) be willing to do the fluting. From my chats with him, it's more of a lack of time for R&D into new projects that is what he's avoiding. Adding flutework to an existing template wouldn't require any change to the pattern, as far as I know, so it's worth asking about.
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It's true that the pointing makes it really hard, if not impossible, to put everything on yourself.
I've put myself into my plate armor once or twice, but that was before I added the points on the top edge of the arms, and before I added the voiders. The upper-arm points would have to be pulled taught and then tied with one hand. The voiders restrict me from bending my elbows somewhat, and it's enough to keep me from being able to get both hands up to the same shoulder to tie on the pauldrons. I could see maybe doing this solo if I made the laces really long, so that I could pull one end with my teeth. :-\
The buckles at the waist level to hold the breast+back plates together were always very difficult to do by myself, but not impossible, just because of the angle. Same with the buckles on the vambraces, which have to be done one-handed.
Everything below the waist is simple to do by yourself.
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Good point Sir Edward, one thing that I blatantly forgot to add is this.
I myself am designing this harness to serve several functions. They are for me as a Knight For Hire (yep, it's true!) and as a HEMA Kit for my studies in the German Medieval Martial Arts. I wanted a kit that was simple, but good looking and historically accurate with no need for the living historians to roll in their graves due to a single error. Also as a kit for the SCA, Adrian Empire and Markland. Yep, I may be crazy but I gotten many requests on Facebook to either attend the meetings or fight practices from all three of the organizations!
So, to make thing a bit easier why not I compare and contrast two potential harness.
I will start with the German Gothic Placard/Brigandine Harness
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/sallet%20profile.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Bevor%201.JPG)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/pauldron.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Plackard.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/black%20ringmaille%20front.JPG)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/15th%20Century%20Arms.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/fingered%20gauntlets.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/legs.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/two%20piece%20greave.jpg)
Now the Italian Harness
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/017.JPG)
(Ice Falcon Armory)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/pauldron.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/breast%20w%20tassets.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/15th%20Century%20Arms.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/fingered%20gauntlets.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/legs.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/two%20piece%20greave.jpg)
I hope this helps
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Another thing I just recalled from last night is GDFB's Venetian Sallet.
This to me, would work perfectly with an Italian Style Harness.
This would go along with the prototype for the Italian Harness I compiled.
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1284b.jpg)
And better yet, I have considered on asking Allan to flute the breast plate, gauntlets, arms, legs and maybe pauldrons with a simple Gothic arch that would be perfect for this helmet!
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So far I've been pretty pleased with the GDFB helmets. They're not perfect, but they're great for the price. I haven't handled that one in particular, but so far GDFB hasn't disappointed me with their helms.
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I have a GDFB Phrygian helm (the Normans would've used this helm while fighting in and around the Italian city states or so I'm told) - it is heavy, well made - not the prettiest but serviceable. I think they're all 14 gauge, at least mine is. The nasal hangs below my chin which restricts important stuff like drinking and eating so I don't wear it.
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Hi Joshua,
I don't know if I'm too late here, but I should point out that most of those Mercenary Tailor pieces are not actually gothic. Some of them don't even go together (such as those gauntlets, which belong on a much later harness).
What I recommend: Don't rely on modern armorer's websites to decide what you want. Look at historical images, look at photos from museums (which can have their own flaws sometimes), and occassionally use modern pieces for inspiration.
While Allan at Merc Tailor is fantastic and one of the best customer service guys in the arms and armor world, bar none, most of his stuff isn't really the high gothic style, even with fluting. I also question the sallet and bevor that they sell. It's based off an original, but I suspect that original is actually a Victorian piece, as I've never seen a sallet that looks like it.
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No Das Bill you are not too late!
Thank you for the advice and I have been looking at examples from the fechtbuchs in terms of harness styles.
I myself like the German Gothic Armor, but recently with utilizing Merc's Tailor's pieces, I am able to come up with an Italian Style harness that existed in the 15th Century.
Here an example from Paulus Hector Mair
(http://gesellschaft-lichtenawers.eu/tsc/images/stories/manuskripty/mair_bsb00007894_00345.jpg)
If you look at the previous posts where I posted a jousting armet sold at Ice Falcon Armory, that would work with the armor pieces at Merc's Tailors.
Never the less, thanks for the advice. As of now I am only planning and designing my harness.
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file:///I:/De%20arte%20athletica%20II%20-%20BSB%20Cod.icon.%20393(2/bsb00007894_00489.jpg (ftp://file:///I:/De%20arte%20athletica%20II%20-%20BSB%20Cod.icon.%20393(2/bsb00007894_00489.jpg)
Here is a better example what I am trying get at.
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file:///I:/De%20arte%20athletica%20II%20-%20BSB%20Cod.icon.%20393(2/bsb00007894_00489.jpg (ftp://file:///I:/De%20arte%20athletica%20II%20-%20BSB%20Cod.icon.%20393(2/bsb00007894_00489.jpg)
Here is a better example what I am trying get at.
You'll need to upload the photo using the attachment feature in the "additional options" when posting a message. This URL above is a file location on your hard drive, so we won't be able to access it.
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I think the first picture should give a general idea. (Hard time with a large file)
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I myself like the German Gothic Armor, but recently with utilizing Merc's Tailor's pieces, I am able to come up with an Italian Style harness that existed in the 15th Century.
Here an example from Paulus Hector Mair
(http://gesellschaft-lichtenawers.eu/tsc/images/stories/manuskripty/mair_bsb00007894_00345.jpg)
That harness is about a century later than what you're after. Now, if you like it, go for it, but just know that it's a reasonably late 16th century style. While the mid- to late 15th century is my personal preference, I still LOVE a lot of the high 16th century harnesses! :)
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That harness is about a century later than what you're after. Now, if you like it, go for it, but just know that it's a reasonably late 16th century style. While the mid- to late 15th century is my personal preference, I still LOVE a lot of the high 16th century harnesses!
You're correct on that, I seem to have a liking to late 15th Century/Maximilian, 16th Century styles of harnesses! LOL!
My idea for my 15th Century harness also came form these
(http://historicenterprises.com/bmz_cache/1/1278a497bf741e87e8735348ac6f18ce.image.250x550.jpg)
(http://historicenterprises.com/bmz_cache/e/eeb3bc50edf1f70cd4b077fa2bfdea2a.image.455x550.jpg)
So if I use these as examples (based on originals in Europe) it should look like this
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/017.JPG)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/stackneck%20gorget%20front.JPG)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Pauldrons%20w%20haute%20plates.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/breast%20w%20tassets.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/15th%20Century%20Arms.jpg)
15th Century Arms
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Mitten%20gauntlet%20thumb.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/legs.jpg)
15th/16th Century Legs
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/two%20piece%20greave.jpg)
Another idea was to use this Venetian Sallet & Bevor but I not sure of if that is a good idea
(http://www.cashanwei.com/img/prod/AB0503.jpg)
Now if you're suggesting that I go with the 16th Century look, then it would look like this
(http://www.cashanwei.com/img/prod/AB1364.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/stackneck%20gorget%20front.JPG)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/pauldron.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Peascod%20%20Breastplate.JPG)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/16th%20century%20arm1full.jpg)
16th Century Arms
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/fingered%20gauntlets.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/16th%20century%20leg%20reinforce.jpg)
16th Century Legs w/ Reinforcments
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/two%20piece%20greave.jpg)
Once again, these are prototypes that are always subject to immediate change or further revisions.
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If you want to do Maximillian (I eventually do, but the price is a bit wild for my budget) then you definitely need to check out ArmoryMarek.com; he does LOTS of nice work.
(http://www.armorymarek.com/public/default/userfiles/image/armours/a22a.jpg)
He has a variety of armor and weapons like I have never seen before in one place; the only catch is that he is overseas and english isn't his first language (all I could get is that his armor is "1.5mm iron"), so that could be a possible barrier. If Allan at MercTailor doesn't make it, Marek is my second choice, but I haven't ordered from Marek yet.
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I think 1.5mm translates roughly to 16 gauge iirc
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Sir James: You're a genius! I haven't seen armor like this and I am majorly drooling!
(http://www.armorymarek.com/public/default/userfiles/image/armours/a35p.jpg)
(http://www.armorymarek.com/public/default/userfiles/image/armours/a42df.jpg)
My gosh, if Armory Marek was the alternative to Historic Enterprises or even Merc's Tailor's, this would be it.
Another I would like to mention is that these are good, what i am really looking for is a standard harness that can fit into a historical period and simultaneously work as a fighting harness for HEMA. What i mean is that I want it to be accurate and at the same time to be able to withstand good beating from future armored bouts or martial challenges.
That is my reason for choosing Merc's Tailor's.
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Whatever you are posting that is so large, I cannot see it, Sir Joshua. I see big white space in between the words of your post (top and bottom). What is it?
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I didn't post anything on the bottom. Must be some spacing I blatantly left out.
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Your previous post (above my earlier post) takes up a lot of space on my screen and its all blank, hence the question.
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Your previous post (above my earlier post) takes up a lot of space on my screen and its all blank, hence the question.
The images are probably getting blocked by your job's filter or something. It's photos of some very pretty harnesses.
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It's photos of some very pretty harnesses.
That is true, the first harness is 16th Century with a Close Helm, gorgeous.
The second one is with a 15th Century Italian Harness with a Great Bascinet, simply amazing.
After looking at the second one, now it seems I have the prototype for the Italian Harness with the choice of three Helmets
The first one
(http://www.anshelmarms.com/images/armor/threequarter_greatbascinet.jpg)
(http://www.anshelmarms.com/images/armor/side_greatbascinet.jpg)
(http://www.anshelmarms.com/images/armor/greatbascinet_openvisor.jpg)
(Anshelm Arms and Armor)
The Second one
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/017.JPG)
(http://store.fastcommerce.com/_staticProxy/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/018.JPG)
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/019.JPG)
(Ice Falcon Armory, Jousting Armet)
Examples of an armet similar to the given one are here
(http://www.bestarmour.com/helmets/armet_1g.jpg)
(http://www.bestarmour.com/helmets/armet_3b.jpg)
The Third one
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1284b.jpg)
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1284d.jpg)
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1284f.jpg)
(http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1284.jpg)
(GDFB Venetian Sallet and Bevor via Therion Arms)
Here are two examples I can find of Italian Harnesses
(http://mysite.verizon.net/tulkaz/pic16th1LG.jpg)
(http://mysite.verizon.net/tulkaz/15thCenturyItalianFullFront2.jpg)
(http://www.ageofarmour.com/images/milanfull.jpg)
(http://www.bestarmour.com/armour/armour_27e.jpg)
I am still going with the direction of 15th Century Italian Harnesses. I am more inclined to order the Great Bascinet but at the same time I feel that getting the Armet would make it better. Once again, I will reserve judgment until approval for either one of these helmets from you brethren or Das Bill. Advice or recommendation are always welcome.
It is quite interesting, I mean with three helmets up for judgement and Merc's Tailors for the body armor. This harness will look historically awesome!
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i have the sallet. while it is ok for a cheaper sallet, i would not get it for one of your pretty harnesses. it has some flaws that are kinda off as far as use and historical use is concerned. thus i havent used it yet for my LH purposes.
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I have also figured that the sallet wouldn't work at all. So that is out.
Sop that leaves me with the Grand Bascinet and the Armet.
As a matter of fact I have decided what helmet. It is the Grand Bascinet from Anshelm Arms and Armor.
So here is the revised 15th Century Italian Harness, open for judgement
(http://www.anshelmarms.com/images/armor/threequarter_greatbascinet.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Pauldrons%20w%20haute%20plates.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/breast%20w%20tassets.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/15th%20Century%20Arms.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Mitten%20gauntlet.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/legs.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/two%20piece%20greave.jpg)
Sabatons from Anshelm Arms and Armor
(http://www.anshelmarms.com/images/armor/sabatons.jpg)
That should do it.
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If there is an alternative to Merc's Tailors if the prototype harness is still inaccurate.
What about Ice Falcon Armory, anything good or bad about the armor made there?
(another reason is that it is closer to where I live in NJ)
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Joshua, what is your spending limit. I am getting what style you like etc but i have some other links etc i want you to look at. but let me know your cap and i'll put together some info for you
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I am seeking to spend around $3,000 to $5,000 or even $2,000 minimum. This leaves with the choices of Merc's Tailors or Ice Falcon Armory after comparing the full harness prices from both armories. (And Thank You Sir Wolf! I hugely appreciate you're help)
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Go with Duke Andreas Icefalke.
(Yes this is a vote for a fellow member of the SCA war unit Tribe RotMahne)
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Post Update: Last night was my first time training in the German Medieval Martial Arts via SIGMA (Staten Island German Martial Arts). It was a blast and had some good feedback from both instructors in terms of what armories to purchase my harness.
They gave approval of Ice Falcon Armory, which is a good thing for me and for RauttSkegg! ;)
I also have checked with Andre Sinou in terms of customizations for armor. I received his email confirming it and now have the potential to order a full German Gothic Suit (with flutting!) or a full 15th Century Italian Harness w/an Armet Helmet!
Now the real and (hopefully) final question is this: Which would be more appropriate since I am training in German Medieval Martial Arts, a Full 15th Century German Gothic Harness or a Full 15th Century Italian/Milanese Harness?
Visual Examples should help a bit.
(http://www.ageofarmour.com/images/sigismund.jpg)
Late 15th Century High German Gothic Harness
(http://www.ageofarmour.com/images/milanfull.jpg)
15th Century Milanese Harness
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Since the most comprehensive sources seem to come from Germany, I'd go with the Gothic Myself.
Also, we're seeing lots of shiney bits, but I hope to God that you're assembling or already have appropriate things to wear under it. ;)
Even the best-made plate is gonna suck without a decent arming doublet.
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Well said, Sir Nathan...and too true.
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Since the most comprehensive sources seem to come from Germany, I'd go with the Gothic Myself.
Also, we're seeing lots of shiney bits, but I hope to God that you're assembling or already have appropriate things to wear under it. ;)
Even the best-made plate is gonna suck without a decent arming doublet.
Indeed, and the measurements for the plate armor should be done with the arming clothes on, or it won't fit properly.
Gothic tends to be more mobile, Italian tends to have better coverage (as a percentage) and thus weighs a bit more. It's very much personal preference, and remember, you don't have to only own one. ;)
Flos Duellatorum by Liberi was in early 15th century, and Gladiatoria (sp?) by Vaddi was in late 15th century, and both were Italian. They have longsword, polearm, dagger and unarmed bits in them. I definitely don't know much about differences between them, or about the details of the content, but german and italian swordsmanship seems very similar on the surface. I know Italian style moved more towards what is now fencing somewhere around or after the 16th century, if that helps any?
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Oh yes, the Italian and German combat systems have much more in common than not. What you learn in one directly applies to the other. And in a way, you can consider them to just be different flavors of the same art.
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Hey, Don't misinterpret me, there are quite a few Italian sources, and Sir Edward is spot-on in their similarities.
But German sources outnumber the Italian for longsword.
You also don't just have to go with one style strictly. German and Italy share a border, remember? I'm sure that there were plenty of folks sporting elements of both styles.
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shame all of the English armour is gone. from what i gather the style was a lot like Milanese export but had hard fluting. it was different than both German and Italian but had similarities to it. i think there are some churches in England where the style can be seen. Robert Macpherson showed me a reference once when i was in his shop picking up some armour with a friend. was really cool
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Thank you everyone!
I am aware that the German and Italian Medieval Martial Arts are similar with little differences.
I myself am leaning towards the 15th Century Italian Harness because of my personal preference for tad bit heavy armor (including tad bit heavy swords!) Also that the Italian Harness bears a huge resemblance to the armor of Martin the Warrior Mouse, one of my childhood heroes. And I feel that a harness or even a sword must bear symbolic or significant importance as a reminder of what we believe in and what we fight for. Or even bear a symbolic meaning of what values we embody or are striving for (symbolic). I find myself leaning more towards the Italian not just for the aforementioned reason but every time I see an Armet Helmet, I see what Honor was represented in the 15th Century. I cannot name it, but I feel in my heart that is what I should go for. Because it may be a good example of how a harness style can be a symbolic representation of Chivalry. The same thing can be said concerning the type of longsword.
But I will have a talk with my teachers at SIGMA and get their approvals on which one.
Sir Nathan: I am only changing pieces of armor to get the most historically accurate harness as possible. But when I order my full harness, I will post pictures showing the individual pieces so that you brethren and Das Bill can scrutinize for accuracy at your pleasure ;)
Also, I am getting an Arming doublet or Arming Cotte from either Ice Falcon or Revival Clothing. I am getting those first before the actual harness measurements are made.
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shame all of the English armour is gone. from what i gather the style was a lot like Milanese export but had hard fluting. it was different than both German and Italian but had similarities to it. i think there are some churches in England where the style can be seen. Robert Macpherson showed me a reference once when i was in his shop picking up some armour with a friend. was really cool
There's a few effigies and brasses on it, but no period pieces survive that I've seen. This is a great picture of a lot of them:
http://warsoftheroses.devhub.com/img/upload/englisharmour1415-1475.jpg
I can't remember who, but someone had a thread on AA about having a book about it. Never came to production, AFAIK. :(
I am getting an Arming doublet or Arming Cotte from either Ice Falcon or Revival Clothing. I am getting those first before the actual harness measurements are made.
(Mr Smithers voice) Exxxxcellent. :)
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I am getting an Arming doublet or Arming Cotte from either Ice Falcon or Revival Clothing. I am getting those first before the actual harness measurements are made.
(Mr Smithers voice) Exxxxcellent. :)
Excellent indeed. :) I haven't seen the Ice Falcon one up close. The Revival one is very nice, but if you need to add arming points, make sure you stitch them well. And you might need to add leather reinforcement if there are any areas where the armor rubs on it. The linen they use is a little soft and wears-through pretty easily. Their pourpoint on the other hand is very tough in comparison.
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I am getting an Arming doublet or Arming Cotte from either Ice Falcon or Revival Clothing. I am getting those first before the actual harness measurements are made.
(Mr Smithers voice) Exxxxcellent. :)
Excellent indeed. :) I haven't seen the Ice Falcon one up close. The Revival one is very nice, but if you need to add arming points, make sure you stitch them well. And you might need to add leather reinforcement if there are any areas where the armor rubs on it. The linen they use is a little soft and wears-through pretty easily. Their pourpoint on the other hand is very tough in comparison.
Sir Edward, I have the IceFalcon one if you want to have a look at it.
I recommend these for any arming points:
http://historicenterprises.com/arming-doublet-point-reinforces-leather-p-1298.html?cPath=101_135
At $1 each, you can't beat the price. They also don't need to be attached to the arming clothes, so you just untie them and toss it in the washing machine. The 4 holes spread the load on the fabric out to reduce the chance of tearing the fabric. It basically points from the outside in, then from the inside back out (I can get pics, I think my description makes no sense) and the 4 holes make the arming points themselves stay in place on the arming clothes, which means you don't have to sew the leather at all.
I have them for all the arming points for my 14th century kit, which will be put to the test in the next month or two (as the mail skirt is backordered until June/July).
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I recommend these for any arming points:
http://historicenterprises.com/arming-doublet-point-reinforces-leather-p-1298.html?cPath=101_135
At $1 each, you can't beat the price. They also don't need to be attached to the arming clothes, so you just untie them and toss it in the washing machine. The 4 holes spread the load on the fabric out to reduce the chance of tearing the fabric. It basically points from the outside in, then from the inside back out (I can get pics, I think my description makes no sense) and the 4 holes make the arming points themselves stay in place on the arming clothes, which means you don't have to sew the leather at all.
Those look pretty good. I wonder how well the Revival cotte will take them. It might be OK with the grommets being the only part that's attached, since that's how I did the voiders (lots of small grommets), but since there's only 4 taking all the weight of the legs for each pointing, I'm still cautious. The linen they used really isn't that strong. I'd have no fear at all on the pourpoint. :)
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I recommend these for any arming points:
http://historicenterprises.com/arming-doublet-point-reinforces-leather-p-1298.html?cPath=101_135
At $1 each, you can't beat the price. They also don't need to be attached to the arming clothes, so you just untie them and toss it in the washing machine. The 4 holes spread the load on the fabric out to reduce the chance of tearing the fabric. It basically points from the outside in, then from the inside back out (I can get pics, I think my description makes no sense) and the 4 holes make the arming points themselves stay in place on the arming clothes, which means you don't have to sew the leather at all.
Those look pretty good. I wonder how well the Revival cotte will take them. It might be OK with the grommets being the only part that's attached, since that's how I did the voiders (lots of small grommets), but since there's only 4 taking all the weight of the legs for each pointing, I'm still cautious. The linen they used really isn't that strong. I'd have no fear at all on the pourpoint. :)
Sorry, I should have clarified about the points. I have the revival pourpoint that I will have my legs pointed to. The points with the leather tabs are for the shoulders, arms, a mail skirt, and the voiders; it will be on my MRL gambeson (since it's cheap enough to test with before mutilating a good one). I have an idea with the mail skirt (and possibly voiders) to not need lots of small points; if it works, I'll post a how-to thread about it.
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Sir James and Sir Edward: Allow me to summarize your advice. You both are suggesting that I should purchase an arming cotte with arming points and leather pointers to reduce wear and tear on the garment and a hint of advice to go with the pourpoint.
Does this mean that I will have to purchase this?
(http://www.revivalclothing.com/images/products/display/armingcotte_Linen_Black_front_display.jpg)
and this?
(http://www.revivalclothing.com/images/products/display/PourpointWithArmour_display.jpg)
And another thing to consider, supposed if I got the Italian Harness, would these help at all? Or should I get this?
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/armour005%5B1%5D.JPG)
or this?
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/armor3%20020.jpg)
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I like the revival arming cotte a lot. But here's the two main issues to consider with it: First the strength of the linen as I outlined earlier. As long as you don't abuse it, it should hold up. The other is that they mount the points for the legs on it very low. Both sets of legs I have (Merc Tailor and GDFB) need the points to be higher, so I had to attach new ones.
The revival pourpoint is nice and strong, and has the points at a nicer height. I haven't started using it yet (just got it after the last time I armored up), but wearing it over the arming cotte should work fine. It won't stretch as much and so it should do a little better of a job pulling the weight up off your legs.
When we start doing armored combat in class again next week, I want to try using them together. We'll see how it goes.
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You can make do with just a gambeson/arming coat and point the legs to it, but I've tried it, and found it much less comfortable. Since the arming coat sits away from your body and moves when you move, the legs are much more "floppy and free" just attached to the gambeson; attaching it to the inside of the gambeson helps, but still isn't optimal.
What seems to be the ideal for a white harness ("full plate") suit is to have the pourpoint underneath. It's a very close-fitted vest (as you posted the picture of), and the legs point to it - if your legs point in two places (front and sides) it works MUCH better. I've worn the legs to my harness a number of times trying this out. I've found that the pourpoint works much better underneath the arming coat, as it stays closer to your body and can be worn more snugly. The straps on the leg armor that go around your legs and knees really don't do much except for keep the armor from gapping away from your body during movement; the weight is all supported from the points at the top, and as Sir Edward said, the location of the points is very important.
Over top of the pourpoint, you have your arming coat. This is pointed for whatever else needed; spaulders, voiders, arms, etc. Gothic armor tends to be attached with points, and Italian armor tends to be attached more by straps; the pauldrons will strap to the gorget and will buckle around the arms; the arms themselves will be closed upper and lower and buckled inside the elbow, if fitted properly they won't move around even without pointing. In that case, the arming coat is there simply for padding (and possibly voiders if you use any), as the pourpoint is not padded at all.
If you haven't seen this (http://www.selohaar.org/essays/arming.htm), it explains things very well, and is based off of period documentation.
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bah!
i wear a linen porpoint to hold up my hosen. then i wear my arming jacket over that. everything points to it. (you can see the white peeking out the front under teh red arming jacket.
(http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/31.jpg)
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/31.jpg
(http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/11.jpg)
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/11.jpg
the icefalcons look too bulky and not body formed enough i think
ok weird, the first image isn't showing up, but it shows up when i try to fix the msg. can everyone see 2 pictures?
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I use the revival clothing pourpoint as well for my leg armor (Thanks again Sir Andrew for suggesting it to me a couple years ago! ;) ) and I agree with Sir Edward that it is very durable however since I use straps for my leg armor I stitched some leather squares as reinforcements before riveting the straps to the pourpoint. I also use the pourpoint to attach my padded leggings. Believe me this method is far more comfortable than using an arming belt with straps. :)
(http://www.revivalclothing.com/images/products/display/PourpointWithArmour_display.jpg)
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I fought in the typical SCA leg harness (belt & straps) for 10 years until I figured out that a pourpoint is THE way to go. I will never go back!
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(http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/31.jpg)
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/31.jpg
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Sir Wolf,
I see the gentleman to the right points his joined hose to his arming coat. Are your hose similarly pointed, or do you point them to a pourpoint? I can't quite tell from the photograph. You are portraying the 15th century here, right? As I'm in the mid-14th century my hose should be separate if lower class and joined if I'm hoity-toity, correct?
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Sir Edward: Thanks for the warning!
Sir James: I have seen that essay and I will like to say this:
Everyone is in agreement of the pourpoint. Hence I will order a Pourpoint from Revival Clothing.
Sir Wolf: Thanks for the pictures!
It also appears that Merc Tailor's might have second chance with me ordering armor from them. Given that the pourpoint is highly recommended and the 15/16th Century Legs (from Merc Tailor's) does have leather straps and liner holes.
But this still doesn't prevent me from ordering (with the right monies) two 15th Century Italian Harness! One from Merc Tailor's and from Ice Falcon Armory! (Credit goes to Sir Wolf for the ingenious idea)
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Sir Wolf,
I see the gentleman to the right points his joined hose to his arming coat. Are your hose similarly pointed, or do you point them to a pourpoint? I can't quite tell from the photograph. You are portraying the 15th century here, right? As I'm in the mid-14th century my hose should be separate if lower class and joined if I'm hoity-toity, correct?
actually no. those points u see at the waist are for his armoured legs. his hosen for some reason unknown to me stay up without a pourpoint hehehe. my hosen are attached to a pourpoint.
here are pictures of hosen attached to the doublet:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/63.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2009/MTA/Lara/Full/2009_Jamestown_MTA%20029.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTT/full/IMGP1996.jpg
attached to a doublet on a HOT day.
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/Michaelmas/full/IMGP2358.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/Michaelmas/full/IMGP2359.jpg
a picture of me on the left. i had already pointed my hosen to my pourpoint but put my doublet back on cause it was freezing cold and i hadn't put on my arming jacket:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0227.jpg
legs attached to an arming doublet:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2003/mtt2003/full/Image55.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2003/mtt2003/full/Image54.jpg
how to dress a knight.
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0332.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0333.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0334.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0335.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0336.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0337.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0338.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0339.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0340.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0341.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0342.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0343.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0344.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0345.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0346.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0347.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0348.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0349.jpg
arming up a man at arms:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1558.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1559.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1562.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1565.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1567.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1568.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1569.jpg
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Thank you Sir Wolf for the doublet examples and armoring pictures!
Did you get your doublet from Historic Enterprises perchance?
Now supposed if I get Revival's Gambeson in conjunction with the Pourpoint, would that be good enough?
And I hate to say this but Historic Enterprises is the enemy, Brian Price's wife Gwen is head of that company. I heard this from both instructors at SIGMA and they recommended Revival as the alternative.
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Another thing I just remembered, I found the armet by armor and castings which is the armet helmet that tom leoni bought. This helps with merc tailor italian harness prototype.
Any vendors that sell doublets besides revival?
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And I hate to say this but Historic Enterprises is the enemy, Brian Price's wife Gwen is head of that company. I heard this from both instructors at SIGMA and they recommended Revival as the alternative.
I have to question that statement a bit, as the registration info for the sites are in complete conflict.
Historic Enterprises is registered to Jeffrey Hedgecock, who produces a number of the items on the site. Brian Price is in Texas, the Schola Saint George, of which he was previous president is headquartered there, ChivalryBookshelf.com is registered to him there, as is Chronique.com, both well known Brian Price ventures - however, Revival.us is also registered to Brian Price, and also hosted with the same provider as Chronique and ChivalryBookshelf.
Beyond that, Historic Enterprises and the other 3 sites mentioned aren't hosted by the same hosting provider, which makes it seem far less likely to me; at least with my experience, people who own multiple companies/sites host them all with the same company.
I think you (or they) may have it backwards, in that Revival.us is associated with Brian Price, and Historic Enterprises is the preferred alternative?
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gwen is married to jeff hedgecock.
and no, all of our doublets and hosen we made ourselves
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I just got back from a research trip in Europe. I just spent hours examining up close some of the original pieces that have inspired the modern copies in this very thread. :)
Since the most comprehensive sources seem to come from Germany, I'd go with the Gothic Myself.
Keep in mind that though the Germanic areas may have the most surviving literature, these arts were widespread, and "Germany" as we know it didn't actually exist. :) You would have seen both the "German" and "Italian" fighting arts used all throughout the Holy Roman empire. Plus, there's also the issue that so many of the armors were imported. (i.e. "Italian-styled" harnesses made in Germany for Italian clientele, and "German-styled" armors made in Italy for German customres) So really, you can easily justify Italian armor with German martial arts.
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I am seeking to spend around $3,000 to $5,000 or even $2,000 minimum. This leaves with the choices of Merc's Tailors or Ice Falcon Armory after comparing the full harness prices from both armories. (And Thank You Sir Wolf! I hugely appreciate you're help)
If you're willing to spend that, I would actually refrain from Ice Falcon, and while Merc's Tailor is good, they might not be your best option for what you want. Both are good for the money, but Merc's Tailor is meant for spending on a budget (and therefore will be "off-the-racK" rather than perfectly fitted), and Ice Falcon is really closer to fantasy than historical (and it sounds like that matters to you). I would personally go for one of the custom makers. For example, Best Armour has some full harnesses of the exact styles you're looking at that fit well within your range, and they will make it to your measurements (a VERY important thing with full armour). They aren't the best in terms of time management, but they're a good example of what you can get for that price range.
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Does this mean that I will have to purchase this?
(http://www.revivalclothing.com/images/products/display/armingcotte_Linen_Black_front_display.jpg)
and this?
(http://www.revivalclothing.com/images/products/display/PourpointWithArmour_display.jpg)
You need either/or, but not both. The cotte already has the leg points, and is appropriate for later 15th c. harnesses. If you're wearing a padded gambeson, though, you'll want the pourpoint intead for underneath of it.
And another thing to consider, supposed if I got the Italian Harness, would these help at all? Or should I get this?
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/armour005%5B1%5D.JPG)
or this?
(http://static.fastcommerce.com/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/armor3%20020.jpg)
I really dislike those. They're bulky, and the cut of the design is weird so that they don't really look natural when worn. I ordered one when they first came out and instantly returned it. They're okay, but I think you can get better for not much more. (e.g. the Revival Clothing model)
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http://www.flarcheveque.com/Homeb.html contact francois. he is canada's macpherson. REALLY good stuff.
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http://www.armuredube.com/armuredube.com/Accueil.html this is eric. i think francois learned form him. very good too.
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And I hate to say this but Historic Enterprises is the enemy, Brian Price's wife Gwen is head of that company. I heard this from both instructors at SIGMA and they recommended Revival as the alternative.
I think you're thinking of Revival.us, not Historic Enterprises. HE is run by Jeff Hedgecock and his wife, I think. Revival.us is Brian Price and his wife.
Note that Revival.us and Revival Clothing are two separate things.
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Yeah, the armour styles issue is very flexible. And it's interesting to note that for the longest time (not by the late 15th though methinks) that they were doing their best to conquer Italy.
I point my legs to the Revival arming doublet with no problem. Biggest issue for me was the stitching attaching to points (leg) burst out after a demo.
No big issue. Linen was fine, Leather was fine, just get Mum to sew it back on.
But since your budget is about 5 times mine is, go with separate pourpoint/doublet.
Best armour is recommended by alot of people, and they do good work. Gotta watch that language barrier though. (although enough people this side of the pond have been sporting their stuff, so there's obviously a solution...)
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Brethren: I think that my Teachers at SIGMA are the ones who unknowingly are confused. I will tell this right now for possible discussion on Tuesday night.
Das Bill: Thank you so much for your help. It is most appreciated. If Ice Falcon and Merc Tailors are out. This leaves me with Historic Enterprises and Best Armor. What are your views concerning Historic Enterprises?
I have looked at Best Armor at their 15th Century Harness which doesn't look bad. Except there are few straps on their and it looks like a man at arms harness, rather than a full harness.
(http://www.bestarmour.com/armour/armour_27e.jpg)
(http://www.bestarmour.com/armour/armour_27g.jpg)
(http://www.bestarmour.com/armour/armour_27h.jpg)
(http://www.bestarmour.com/armour/armour_27i.jpg)
If there are alternatives, Historic Enterprises has these
http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-italoflemish-circa-1471-p-575.html?cPath=101_133 (http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-italoflemish-circa-1471-p-575.html?cPath=101_133)
http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-italian-milanese-circa-1470-p-574.html?cPath=101_133 (http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-italian-milanese-circa-1470-p-574.html?cPath=101_133)
Also, this arming doublet: has anyone used this? If so, how does it fare? Good? Bad?
And I might get this either red or blue
http://historicenterprises.com/doublet-arming-15th-century-w-free-arming-coif-p-713.html?cPath=101_135 (http://historicenterprises.com/doublet-arming-15th-century-w-free-arming-coif-p-713.html?cPath=101_135)
In summary: which if these harnesses are more accurate?
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Sir Wolf: Thanks for the websites! This definitely helps when looking for alternatives.
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ummm i'm lost. the Milanese version has straps. its the style.
there is no difference between a knight and a man at arms harness. they are interchangeable. the difference is socially and monetarily within the peerage of the realm
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Das Bill: Thank you so much for your help. It is most appreciated. If Ice Falcon and Merc Tailors are out. This leaves me with Historic Enterprises and Best Armor. What are your views concerning Historic Enterprises?
Oh, you have WAY more options than just them! Just look at this links page, for starters:
http://www.myarmoury.com/links.html
I haven't had personal experience with HE, so I can't really say one way or another other than that they look quite good.
I have looked at Best Armor at their 15th Century Harness which doesn't look bad. Except there are few straps on their and it looks like a man at arms harness, rather than a full harness.
As Sir Wolf says, there's no difference between a man at arm's harness and a full harness, and straps are just a part of Milanese armor. Check out these two in Vienna.
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Das Bill: Thanks and best of all, I found this
http://www.wassonartistry.com/index.php (http://www.wassonartistry.com/index.php)
http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=late15thcent (http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=late15thcent)
(http://www.wassonartistry.com/images/armor/late15thcent/IMG_0041.JPG)
(http://www.wassonartistry.com/images/armor/late15thcent/IMG_0192.JPG)
Now this is the armor I like and want to order! Finally! ;D
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watson is good. nice pic. i had lost his url
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Local (NY) and best of all, this suit looks exactly what Ia m looking for.
Any thoughts, views on this guy?
If not, I will look his work on MyArmory.com and
(http://www.wassonartistry.com/images/armor/late15thcent/IMG_0012.JPG)
Breastplate detail for scrutinizing!
Another thing, his Gothic Harnesses are simply gorgeous! And he has one for sale, hhmm....
which one to choose now?
(http://www.wassonartistry.com/images/forsale//IMG_1376.JPG)
(http://www.wassonartistry.com/images/armor/late15thcent/IMG_0192.JPG)
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On second, I will settle with the Late 15th century Italian Harness once and for all!
The problem has finally been solved!
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Wasson does excellent work. Good choice. :)
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I agree that Jeff Wasson is a good choice. I don't own any of his work, but every one of his pieces I've seen "look right" and appear to be well researched. I've had the pleasure of some minor correspondence with Mr. Wasson and found him to have a deep and genuine knowledge of armour as well as a pleasant personality. :)
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Wow @ Wasson...first time I've heard or seen their work but man is it gorgeous.
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Isn't he the guy that makes a new set of armor for his son almost every year? since he was two?
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no that is umm crud totally lost it. its on the tip of my tongue.
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Isn't he the guy that makes a new set of armor for his son almost every year? since he was two?
You're thinking of Wade Allen.
http://www.ils.unc.edu/~allen/newarmour.html
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Ah yes that's him! Thanks Bill! :)
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I see that everyone is in full agreement with the Harness choice as well as armorer choice!
Now this idea just came to me, since i was earlier creating prototypes from Merc tailors, why not I create a full Kit from Merc tailor's with the Jousting Helmet from Ice Falcon!
The Kit would be for HEMA related purposes, as well a kit for other organizations that keep sending me the invites (SCA, Adrian Empire, Markland Medieval Mercenary Militia/Order of the Golden Lion)
So it would look like this:
(http://store.fastcommerce.com/_staticProxy/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/019.JPG)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/stackneck%20gorget%20front.JPG)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Pauldrons%20w%20haute%20plates.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/breastplate.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Plackard.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/15th%20Century%20Arms.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/fingered%20gauntlets.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/legs.jpg)
(http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/two%20piece%20greave.jpg)
(Now bear in mind that this is a Kit prototype)
So hence I would be ordering (with the monies) a Full Harness and a Full Kit! Not bad eh?
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If you've got the budget, go with Wasson. If he does the whole rig, it's flow together beautifully. Another thing to look out for is interchangability of parts. Some armours just aren't compatible because of sizing differences. It's not the armourer's fault either, just if you're dead set on multiple armourers, at least make sure they know what the designs are going to look like to accommodate them. (Especially if you've got fluting)
BTW, Man-at-arms = Knight. In period literature, they are interchangeable. Throw out the notion of a band of pantsless mercenaries running through the countrside with a muddied and bloodied half harness and a gauntlet strapped to their head.
Men-at-arms were the posh thing to be. A knight might be a foppish couch potato with a title, but a Man-at-arms... The title really says it all
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Sir Nathan: I thank you for your advice. If I have the budget, I would go for it all the way. But if worse does come to worse, I would resort with a Maximilian style harness where the suit would be Merc Tailors or Patrick Thaden. But still thanks, I like the title "Man at Arms" thanks to you!
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Yep, a man-at-arms is the same thing, just without the knight title (or with it, it can be an inclusive term).
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If he posts all those pics just a few more times, I think Sir Edward will have to start paying additional fees for the extra space. lol
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Then I will cease and decease on posting pics, and just post links to the individual pieces. That should be more fun!
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Now let's try this again, shall we?
Point Summary: I will go for Wasson all the way but it depends on my personal budget. If trhe quote price from Wasson doesn't fit into my budget. I will then resort to a Maximilian Style Full Harness or Full Kit from either Merc Tailor's or from Patrick Thaden. As you can see, I have a back up plan (keep in mind this is only for future reference).
16th Century Full Harness Prototype (Maximilian Style)
http://www.thadenarmory.com/gallery/gallery_armor.htm (http://www.thadenarmory.com/gallery/gallery_armor.htm)
(Suit based on variant elements of German Armour, Maximilian Style. Along with the 16th Century Close Helm.)
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/chris.html (http://www.lightlink.com/armory/chris.html)
(an example for reference, early 16th Century Close Helm is just an idea for Full Kit)
Another historical reference
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_ana_charlesv.html (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_ana_charlesv.html)
Full Kit Ideas
Helmets
http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=363 (http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=363)
http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-1011-tudor-close-helm.aspx (http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-1011-tudor-close-helm.aspx)
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1250.html (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1250.html)
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-1634-maximilian-close-helm-ah-3824.aspx (http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-1634-maximilian-close-helm-ah-3824.aspx)
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1029.html (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1029.html)
(Late 15th Century Style Idea)
Gorget
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=50 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=50)
Pauldrons
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=55 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=55)
Breastplate
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=37 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=37)
Arms Harness
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=31 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=31)
Gauntlets
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=41 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=41)
Leg Harness
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=141 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=141)
Greaves
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=74 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=74)
Concept idea came from Stephan Fick's Harness showing here:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150116563013255&set=a.10150116562168255.317136.630693254&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150116563013255&set=a.10150116562168255.317136.630693254&type=1&theater)
(Only with either a Armet Helmet or Close Helmet instead of a Burgonet)
What I am trying to get to is the conceptual idea of 16th Century Style Kits that resemble these
http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_eng02.jpg (http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_eng02.jpg)
http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_mow_charlesv17.jpg (http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_mow_charlesv17.jpg)
http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_mow_clifford03.jpg (http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_mow_clifford03.jpg)
Here is an essay on MyArmory.com that talks about the 16th century Style Harnesses
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_16c_armour.html (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_16c_armour.html)
I hope this helps everyone in terms of my back up plan and what is based on what. But keep in mind that this is just a plan in case that the Wasson Quote doesn't meet up with my budget. I will let you all know when that happens.
Cheers!
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If he posts all those pics just a few more times, I think Sir Edward will have to start paying additional fees for the extra space. lol
If the pics are hotlinked to the other site (versus attachments), it doesn't cost Sir Edward anything for bandwidth, as it's being displayed from the other server. That's why you can't see the KOA pics, since KOA is blocked for you, but ModernChivalry isn't, you can see the content from the MC server, but not KOA. :)
I would say with so many pics, linking is better from a visual standpoint, since the pages get gigantimonious with so many pics, and then someone quotes the post with the pics...
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Glad that works Sir James.
I am still going with 15th Century Italian, I will be making inquiries from the armorers about the quotes for such orders.
I will let everyone know what happens.
Cheers!
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Thread Update: Due to advice and recommendations made by my instructors at SIGMA and some deep thinking and considerations.
I have decided to go with a 14th Century Kit. Most likely from Merc Tailor's or from Historic Enterprises.
I will later on post my kit and harnesses prototypes.
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excellent!
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Well transitional definitely offers you the most versatility! :)
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I think you made a great choice, but I'm a little biased. The years 1300 to 1400 were witness to an explosion of armour development. Early in the century a mail hauberk, chausses, great helm and maybe some knee protection is all you need. By the end of the century you can very nearly have a full "white armour". I prefer the year 1350 which gives me a ton of leeway. ;)
The houndskull bascinet is your best avatar to date!
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I think you made a great choice, but I'm a little biased. The years 1300 to 1400 were witness to an explosion of armour development. Early in the century a mail hauberk, chausses, great helm and maybe some knee protection is all you need. By the end of the century you can very nearly have a full "white armour". I prefer the year 1350 which gives me a ton of leeway. ;)
The houndskull bascinet is your best avatar to date!
Yeah, I just love this century for that very reason. You can mix and match, and find some happy spot anywhere along that continuum to choose for your kit.
And I really do like the mid to late 14th C armor a lot. Just really hate most of the helmets. :) The bascinets had some versions that were OK, but I think a lot of them are awfully ugly, particularly the houndskull/bigfaces. I appreciate them historically, but just really don't like the look. Same of the klappvisors and the like aren't bad though. Personally I think the helms looked good toward the end of the 13th and the beginning of the 14th with the great helms and sugarloafs, and then starting looking really good again in the 15th C. But in the middle there, it's slimmer pickings for me. :)
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Same here....14th Century is an excellent time for armor and armor enthusiasts!
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OK, for the first Kit for KFH (Knight for Hire), here it goes
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1276.html (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1276.html)
The Merc Tailor website is down, I don't know why. But i will type down the rest of the Kit in which I hope everyone should be familiar with the pieces.
14th Century Gorget
Besegues
Spaulders
Late 14th/Early 15th Century Breast and Back Plate
14th-15th Century Arms (will ask Allan to make the Rondel Elbows)
Wisby Type 1 Gauntlets
14th-15th Century Legs
Plate Greaves
For this Kit, Revival's Agincourt Arming Cotte will come in handy for the pointers, but I will use the pourpoint for the leg harness only.
Now for the Ren Faire Look! (This time using full harnesses! ;D)
http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=agincourt (http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=agincourt)
http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=1380senglish (http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=1380senglish)
For HEMA
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1078.html (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1078.html)
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1298.html (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1298.html)
Ringmaille Coat (no sleeves)
14th-15th Century Arms w/Integral Spaulders
Demi Gauntlets
Full Harness: http://www.bestarmour.com/armour_6.html (http://www.bestarmour.com/armour_6.html)
(KA 6.2)
For SCA
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/klap-visor-bascinet-ff80818119f1676e011aa1376fac12d6-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/klap-visor-bascinet-ff80818119f1676e011aa1376fac12d6-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/6mm-flat-riveted-large-steel-custom-aventail-w-riveted-brass-tips-ff8081812f43597c012fe63e66297bcb-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/6mm-flat-riveted-large-steel-custom-aventail-w-riveted-brass-tips-ff8081812f43597c012fe63e66297bcb-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-grade-14th-century-shoulder-pauldrons-ff80818118fcdfb4011905e4369950a8-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-grade-14th-century-shoulder-pauldrons-ff80818118fcdfb4011905e4369950a8-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-chernburg-breastplate-with-rolled-edges-ff8081811961735c01197889d9831ab9-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-chernburg-breastplate-with-rolled-edges-ff8081811961735c01197889d9831ab9-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/matching-splint-embossed-arms-and-legs-set-ff80818119f1676e011aa1beb0d52691-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/matching-splint-embossed-arms-and-legs-set-ff80818119f1676e011aa1beb0d52691-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-steel-finger-gauntlets-ff80818117a128ef0117a26addc9386c-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-steel-finger-gauntlets-ff80818117a128ef0117a26addc9386c-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-greaves-ff80818117967ef80117980b8e2c0a01-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-greaves-ff80818117967ef80117980b8e2c0a01-p.html)
For Adrian
http://www.anshelmarms.com/bascinets.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/bascinets.html)
(Back-Point Bascinet w/Sidemounted Pignose Visor)
(Aventail w/Visor Strap)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/elbows.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/elbows.html)
(Composite Late 14th Century Spaulders and Arm Harness)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/bodyarmor.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/bodyarmor.html)
(Crecy-Poitiers Era Coat of Plates)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/gauntlets.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/gauntlets.html)
(Wisby Gauntlets)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/legs.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/legs.html)
(Composite Late 14th Century Leg Harness, Schynbalds and Sabatons)
For Markland
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-pig-face-bascinet-with-hinge-vervelles-and-additional-interchangeable-bargrill-ff8081811ba38dc1011c141804035023-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-pig-face-bascinet-with-hinge-vervelles-and-additional-interchangeable-bargrill-ff8081811ba38dc1011c141804035023-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-gorget-ff80818118efe7590118f20ca3634e30-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-gorget-ff80818118efe7590118f20ca3634e30-p.html)
http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7&products_id=28 (http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7&products_id=28)
(with their Kidney Plates for further protection)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/full-stainless-ducal-grade-late-14th-century-arms-ff8081812b212e35012b349a90510f1b-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/full-stainless-ducal-grade-late-14th-century-arms-ff8081812b212e35012b349a90510f1b-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/late-14th-century-chernburg-legs-ff80818118efe7590118f1d43e25421a-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/late-14th-century-chernburg-legs-ff80818118efe7590118f1d43e25421a-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/gated-stainless-steel-greaves-ff80818117967e33011798f1c59c30e9-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/gated-stainless-steel-greaves-ff80818117967e33011798f1c59c30e9-p.html)
Full Harness: http://www.anshelmarms.com/harnesses.html
(Full 14th Century Harness)
For Selohaar
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-3624-visored-great-helm-gh0180.aspx (http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-3624-visored-great-helm-gh0180.aspx)
http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7&products_id=29 (http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7&products_id=29)
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-2181-leather-brigandine-coat-of-plates-bts-2112.aspx (http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-2181-leather-brigandine-coat-of-plates-bts-2112.aspx)
Merc Tailor's
14th Century Elbow Copps
Splinted Bracers (steel finish)
Wisby Type 3 Gauntlets
14th Century Knee Copps
Splinted Greaves (steel finish)
Full Harness: http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/full-late-14th-century-harness-stainless-ff80818123928a96012400f98b395e60-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/full-late-14th-century-harness-stainless-ff80818123928a96012400f98b395e60-p.html)
I know that this may appear to be over the top. I have decided to make one Kit but with Interchangeable parts. Each of those parts are the subtle differences for different purposes. Think of it like this, you have the Full Kit along with different helms, armor pieces that you change for a different function. This makes it easy instead of buying an entire Kit with the separate parts.
Sir Wolf: Please be kind as to "edit" for innacuracies in the kit's I have posted here. For the SCA, Adrian Markland and Selohaar kits I do take some liberty to include some nice pieces that may not be accurate but are theer for the purpose of having a blend of historical accuracy with some fantasy like elements.
But thank you everyone for your support in my choice for a 14th Century Kit! Any advice is always welcome!
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Here is the Kit/Harness List with several modifications
Merc Tailor Kit
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=65 (http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=65)
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=111 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=111)
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=130 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=130)
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=122 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=122)
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=145 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=145)
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=116 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=116)
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=48 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=48)
Ice Falcon Armory Kit
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-pigface-bascinet-w-cage-and-stainless-aventail-ff808181231a637a01232dc646851352-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-pigface-bascinet-w-cage-and-stainless-aventail-ff808181231a637a01232dc646851352-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-grade-14th-century-shoulder-pauldrons-ff80818118fcdfb4011905e4369950a8-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-grade-14th-century-shoulder-pauldrons-ff80818118fcdfb4011905e4369950a8-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-grade-chernburg-breastplate-with-lance-stop-and-brass-trim-ff80818118efe29f0118f206671030c2-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ducal-grade-chernburg-breastplate-with-lance-stop-and-brass-trim-ff80818118efe29f0118f206671030c2-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/full-stainless-ducal-grade-late-14th-century-arms-ff8081812b212e35012b349a90510f1b-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/full-stainless-ducal-grade-late-14th-century-arms-ff8081812b212e35012b349a90510f1b-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-steel-finger-gauntlets-ff80818117a128ef0117a26addc9386c-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-steel-finger-gauntlets-ff80818117a128ef0117a26addc9386c-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/late-14th-century-chernburg-legs-ff80818118efe7590118f1d43e25421a-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/late-14th-century-chernburg-legs-ff80818118efe7590118f1d43e25421a-p.html)
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-greaves-ff80818117967ef80117980b8e2c0a01-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-greaves-ff80818117967ef80117980b8e2c0a01-p.html)
here is the Full Late 14th Century Harness as an option
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/full-late-14th-century-harness-stainless-ff80818123928a96012400f98b395e60-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/full-late-14th-century-harness-stainless-ff80818123928a96012400f98b395e60-p.html)
Anshelm Arms and Armor Kit
http://www.anshelmarms.com/bascinets.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/bascinets.html)
(Back-Point Bascinet w/Sidemounted Pignose Visor)
(Aventail w/Visor Strap)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/elbows.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/elbows.html)
(Composite Late 14th Century Spaulders and Arm Harness)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/bodyarmor.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/bodyarmor.html)
(Late 14th Century Globose Breastplate)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/gauntlets.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/gauntlets.html)
(Finger Gauntlets w/Brass Edging)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/legs.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/legs.html)
(Composite Late 14th Century Leg Harness, Schynbalds and Sabatons)
or the alternative
http://www.anshelmarms.com/harnesses.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/harnesses.html)
(Full 14th Century Harness)
and now with Jolly Knight Armory (all thanks to Das Bill) here is a prototype idea
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=56 (http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=56)
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_28&products_id=41 (http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_28&products_id=41)
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_29&products_id=79 (http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_29&products_id=79)
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_29&products_id=67 (http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_29&products_id=67)
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_29&products_id=78 (http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_29&products_id=78)
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=75 (http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=75)
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=51 (http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=51)
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I would personally go with the pauldrons without the haut guards (the pieces sticking up) ... every historical piece of armor, and the very few, that I've seen with those seem to be done as jousting reinforcement plates
I thought the haut guards were to protect a mounted knights neck/head from thrusts from thrusts from below.
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Yeah, it seems that they're meant to deflect lances or something, since they're jousting features. They do look cool though.
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Pauldrons w/Haute Guards? That was in the earlier prototype for the Gothic Harness. Right now, it is the Churberg Kit from Jolly Armory. Later on, I will order a fitted Globose Breastplate which I can exchange the Coat of Plates with the Globose Breastplate anytime I need to!
But still thanks for the helpful advice.