ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Aiden of Oreland on 2013-10-08, 04:24:24
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So I have been struggling on this for some time now. I stress about what my symbol and crest should be. I really desire it to embody me as a Knight and for it to be unique. There isn't much to work with with my current crests of my families for I know names have changed over time. As some of you may have seen me in my white and green surcout that I built or created for it to represent my Lennon family crest. Does any one have suggestions on how I might go about this? How have all of you come up with your designs? I mean I have studied Fluer de lis designs for ideas.
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That's a very good question. There are quite a few ways to go about this, actually. What some people will do, is play with one of the Coat-of-Arms programs out there, such as Blazon95 (http://www.harnmaster.us/blazon.html), or Inkwell's Coat of Arms Design Studio (http://inkwellideas.com/coat_of_arms/) (this is the one we standardized on for the Order roster). With those, you can experiment and see what you like.
The down side is that these programs can't do everything. They have a small number of charges to choose from, and have other limitations.
Another angle to approach it from, is to think about the meaning you want it to convey. What sorts of things are important to you? There are websites out there that list the heraldic meanings for different charges, and you can pick based on the meanings rather than the looks, if you want.
For mine, this is what I did:
I decided I wanted one or more of these: Dragon, Ankh, Sword, because they all had specific meanings to me, in terms of how I got here with these historical and chivalric interests.
I had always used blue and black as my colors, but also added white as a third.
Then, I drew up 40 shield designs on the computer, using various combinations of these elements. Some had only two of the colors, or only one or two of the symbols. Others had more. Over the course of a week, I narrowed it down to 5 shields. Then I sat on it for a while, and eventually the idea struck that I kept. It wasn't one of those original designs at all, but combined elements from the last few.
What you'll want to avoid doing is what some people have called "resumé heraldry", in which people try to squeeze in every little detail that means something to them. Don't make it overly complicated, since you'll probably be painting it on something. And don't be afraid to make it mostly geometric instead of using lions and dragons. A lot can be done with stripes and lines, surprisingly.
Another good thing to do is look at a lot of other people's designs and get some ideas. Some SCA websites have heraldry for their kingdoms. I also like looking at some of the shields on the Selohaar roll of arms (http://www.selohaar.org/rollofarms.htm).
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If your white and green surcoat is indicative of your ancestry, something else you could consider is using that as a base and building your arms onto that. Perhaps keep the colors, but change around the design, or keep the design and add another charge or two onto it.
Heraldry was a very personal thing. It was, after all, meant to identify a particular person. So it can be almost whatever you want, as long as you're satisfied with it (and as long as it doesn't intentionally conflict with the arms of someone else).
You could also check out this introduction to heraldry: http://heraldry.sca.org/armory/primer/index.html (http://heraldry.sca.org/armory/primer/index.html) It's very basic, but it might give you a few ideas, or at least show you how many different things can be done.
Also, welcome to the forums. :)
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Besides being symbolic of your family name or heritage, your Coat of Arms (CoA) should say something of you. It is a unique identifier of your person, quality, beliefs, faith, trade/occupation, etc. In essence, every part of it says something about YOU in simplicity or extravagance. The more elaborate your design, the more prestigious but the more expensive so most of us go with .... Keep it simple.
The colors, charges, fields, etc all must come together to identify YOU or your family. All the resources you need are here. Start with your surname (last name) and build upon it.
Some just take up the mantle of an Order like the Templars to save face & make it easier. It is easier but takes the personal aspect out of your own heraldry.
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Thanks a lot! I have spent weeks researching and such but I found it so difficult because I knew this would be a symbol that I'd carry with me and I want it to really and truly represent. I will most definitly look through these sites! Thanks again for the advice. I should come up with a design during the summer do to my education schedule. Knowledge must come first.
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Yeah, it something you don't really want to rush. Take your time until you come up with something you're happy with and that you feel represents you well enough. When I did my arms, I didn't really know a whole lot about the symbolism behind heraldry at the time, so it's rather basic and probably doesn't represent me as a person as well as it could (though fortunately, I am able to fudge it a little and "backwards-symbolize" it). I could always change it, I suppose, but I've worn it to the point where it just feels "normal" to me.
I also hadn't found this forum yet, which would have been a nice resource to have, so if you have any questions or need any help, don't be afraid to ask. :)
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Some very good points made and advice given. I don't have much else to add, but here's a link that explains how I came up with mine: http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/historical/my-heraldry/index/ (http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/historical/my-heraldry/index/)
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The good news is that you can always change it, or add to it later. It's just harder to do later, after you've painted shields and made banners.
It's also good news that the surcoat doesn't have to match the heraldry. It's really the shield that matters. Surcoats can be completely different, or incorporate some of the design, or rearrange it. Those were all done back in the day. So even if you update it later, you can repaint a shield or make a new one, and keep using some of your other gear that you already have.
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So even if you update it later, you can repaint a shield or make a new one, and keep using some of your other gear that you already have.
Hmm, "or make a new one" ... spoken perfectly as a "you can make more than one kit!" suggestion. You beat me to it on that one.
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Ive just decided to go off the uniform desighn of an old playmobile ive had since, well it's one of my earliest memories.
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I also suppose I could start out with a very basic design. For I know that heraldry does change when you are awarded something. Such as a stripe or a flag. Also would you recommend a heraldry leaning on the side of German instead of Irish because there were technically no knights from Ireland. And I mean warrior knights not modern knighted men. I ask this for my origin is Irish and German and dome Russian. Did Russia have "Knights in shiny armor" because I may look into that and find family coat of arms.
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They did indeed - look up St. Vladimir of Kyivan Rus - Vladimir and his boyars (roughly equivalent to landed knights) routed some evil in their day - including thwarting the plans of the legendary witch Baba Yaga. To see some great examples of current reproductions of the medieval arms and armor of that culture look up www.armstreet.com (http://www.armstreet.com)
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Yes i forgot about armstreet. They have nice costum armor. Isnt tht man the insperation for Dracula? Haha baba yaga, bartag the magnificent
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Dracula's inspiration was Vlad Tepes, aka Vlad the Impaler. Different people.
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Thats right, my bad.
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Yep. Vladimir was a saint - though most Romanians I think consider Vlad Tepes on aboutt he same level :)
Baba Yaga was an evil witch who schemed and plotted on how to bring Vladimir to ruin and take over the Rus. She's best known for her wierd magical devices, like her hut that walked around on giant chicken legs...
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This is my mad scramble to figure out a heraldic crest through "paint" lol
It truly is frustrating. Any opinions or suggestions? advice? This is just basically getting the idea web down. I will eventually pull different elements together to come up with an official design.
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I really like the quartered green & white look on the tabbard with the counter-changing maltese crosses (or cross pattee) & chevrons. Looks sharp!!
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Aiden, that's a great start! Actually most of your designs on there look very workable. In the end it will come down to which amongst them will satisfy you the most. One thing to keep in mind is that whatever you choose, you'll likely have to paint and/or sew it at least once (before giving up and choosing to pay others to do it for you). ;)
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Yep, great start! I'm partial to the quartered variants as well. Either the green w/white cross (either style), or the one with the deer and leaf - I'd just put a leaf in the second quartering, or some other charge, to "balance" it - but I'm OCD with things balancing out horizontally and vertically like that.
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Ditto on the quartered surcoats/tabards. They look quite sharp. I kind of like the far left shields in the second and third rows, too, and the quartered shield. I agree that the quartered shield just needs something in the last quadrant, but I'm a bit obsessive-compulsive about balance as well. ;)
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The quartering does look great, but as a counter-point, historically this was frequently done for "marshaling", which was the joining of two sets of heraldry. This may or may not matter to you.
I sometimes try to steer people away from quartering just because so many people do it, and there are so many other cool things that you can do with heraldry out there. But in the end, it's what speaks to you that really matters.
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The quartering does look great, but as a counter-point, historically this was frequently done for "marshaling", which was the joining of two sets of heraldry. This may or may not matter to you.
I sometimes try to steer people away from quartering just because so many people do it, and there are so many other cool things that you can do with heraldry out there. But in the end, it's what speaks to you that really matters.
No I totally agree, thats why on my sheilds I have only one quarter design. That last deer on the very bottom shield I made myself. I do really ljke the surcoat that is quartered. But I like the surcoat and the sheild with maybe the rampant hart with a chevron. The beach leaves I like, but may make them aspen leaves or something else. If I could have a 3rd color what should it be? Brown? Black? Oh ya and would you guys have a recomended shield I could buy to paint and have it capable for SCA. So when I get done a year or two of hema 'that I will join some time in the next 2). And the combination of meanings in my heraldic designs blend nicely. For I am Sir Aiden the Benevolent. Plus the deer and green and white/silver is related to my lennon family crest. The chevrons are related to a few other crests in my routes. I should have a final decision on thing by the end of summer.
Yep, great start! I'm partial to the quartered variants as well. Either the green w/white cross (either style), or the one with the deer and leaf - I'd just put a leaf in the second quartering, or some other charge, to "balance" it - but I'm OCD with things balancing out horizontally and vertically like that.
Ditto on the quartered surcoats/tabards. They look quite sharp. I kind of like the far left shields in the second and third rows, too, and the quartered shield. I agree that the quartered shield just needs something in the last quadrant, but I'm a bit obsessive-compulsive about balance as well. ;)
Haha sry about that, I didn't mean to not put that other beach leaf in. Well thank you all for liking it so much! That just can raise a man's spirit (yet I am not a men yet legally). Again, this is all scrambled together after months of creating new ideas onto the page.
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All of this makes me glad I got my Arms passed in the SCA in '87.
What with the shields, AoA, tattoo, armour color theme, and whatnot it'd be a bastard to change now.
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All of this makes me glad I got my Arms passed in the SCA in '92.
What with the shields, AoA, tattoo, armour color theme, and whatnot it'd be a bastard to change now.
Yeah, Aiden if you are definitely planning on joining the SCA and want to use the heraldry you make with them, I would highly recommend getting it approved with them before painting or sewing it on anything. I imagine it would really suck to spend all that time and/or money on nice heraldic gear only to find that someone else is already using it, or that it doesn't meet SCA standards. ;)
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All of this makes me glad I got my Arms passed in the SCA in '92.
What with the shields, AoA, tattoo, armour color theme, and whatnot it'd be a bastard to change now.
Yeah, Aiden if you are definitely planning on joining the SCA and want to use the heraldry you make with them, I would highly recommend getting it approved with them before painting or sewing it on anything. I imagine it would really suck to spend all that time and/or money on nice heraldic gear only to find that someone else is already using it, or that it doesn't meet SCA standards. ;)
This, this, this!
You'd be amazed at what doesn't pass in the SCA, just because it's too similar to someone's existing design. Also, when it comes to gear you might use in the SCA, it's best to find out what the local Marshal will permit. This is true of any combat group. It's best to find out what the group will permit, and what they will recommend.
In my case, I registered with the SCA after painting my shield, but it was in the hopes that I could pass it without changes (or only minor tweaks), for the sake of protecting its uniqueness. My priorities were different though, since I don't fight in the SCA.
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All of this makes me glad I got my Arms passed in the SCA in '92.
What with the shields, AoA, tattoo, armour color theme, and whatnot it'd be a bastard to change now.
Yeah, Aiden if you are definitely planning on joining the SCA and want to use the heraldry you make with them, I would highly recommend getting it approved with them before painting or sewing it on anything. I imagine it would really suck to spend all that time and/or money on nice heraldic gear only to find that someone else is already using it, or that it doesn't meet SCA standards. ;)
This, this, this!
You'd be amazed at what doesn't pass in the SCA, just because it's too similar to someone's existing design. Also, when it comes to gear you might use in the SCA, it's best to find out what the local Marshal will permit. This is true of any combat group. It's best to find out what the group will permit, and what they will recommend.
In my case, I registered with the SCA after painting my shield, but it was in the hopes that I could pass it without changes (or only minor tweaks), for the sake of protecting its uniqueness. My priorities were different though, since I don't fight in the SCA.
Drats. NOW YOU TELL ME! You know what, I'll make one for now, and if needed to be changed then so be it. Wow that complicates things... But hey, I got years, youth is with me, I got time. I think I will continue with my design and use it as my knightly symbol for when I work toward joining the order. Or should i just use one heraldry for everything based on my local SCA group near Philly. Cuz I live in Ambler/Fort Washington area.
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Well, it's up to you, really. I only mentioned it as a heads-up in case you were explicitly planning on using that particular design with the SCA. If you wanted heraldry just to wear at RenFests or to use within our little Modern Chivalry group or just to have, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going ahead a making something now. Later on down the line, if it passes in the SCA, great! If not and you have to make a new one, it's no big deal. For our purposes, there's no rule against having more than one set of arms for more than one "persona". :)
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Yeah I just joined the SCA and I picked out my colors just need to figure out the process of getting heraldry approved and see if what I have planned is okay...it involves lions and emerald green and autumn gold :)
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Well, it's up to you, really. I only mentioned it as a heads-up in case you were explicitly planning on using that particular design with the SCA. If you wanted heraldry just to wear at RenFests or to use within our little Modern Chivalry group or just to have, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going ahead a making something now. Later on down the line, if it passes in the SCA, great! If not and you have to make a new one, it's no big deal. For our purposes, there's no rule against having more than one set of arms for more than one "persona". :)
Well, its better I know now. I may just get a cheap sheild and cheap fabric to make something for show. Haha, I could quarter when I join my new SCA "family".
Yeah I just joined the SCA and I picked out my colors just need to figure out the process of getting heraldry approved and see if what I have planned is okay...it involves lions and emerald green and autumn gold :)
Sounds like a really nice heraldry. You'll have to show me it when you finish.
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For our purposes, there's no rule against having more than one set of arms for more than one "persona". :)
Allow me to stress this part. :D
I have personal arms, and Templar arms. You can add a third or fourth if you want, too. You could have arms for a 13th century impression, and arms for a 15th century impression. Or two alternate sets of heraldry for 14th century.
I'm working on acquiring a blackened set of armor. Since my arms are white on black, worn with regular silver steel armor, what I may do is make an inverted surcoat - black over white field - to wear with the black armor. Sort of an evil twin, alter-ego kind of thing.
You're only restricted on arms if you want to pick a "persona" for SCA. And nobody says that has to match in anything else you do (renn fest, etc). So you can have your "SCA" arms and your "Renn Fest" arms.
Diversity is the spice of medieval life! :D
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For our purposes, there's no rule against having more than one set of arms for more than one "persona". :)
Allow me to stress this part. :D
I have personal arms, and Templar arms. You can add a third or fourth if you want, too. You could have arms for a 13th century impression, and arms for a 15th century impression. Or two alternate sets of heraldry for 14th century.
I'm working on acquiring a blackened set of armor. Since my arms are white on black, worn with regular silver steel armor, what I may do is make an inverted surcoat - black over white field - to wear with the black armor. Sort of an evil twin, alter-ego kind of thing.
You're only restricted on arms if you want to pick a "persona" for SCA. And nobody says that has to match in anything else you do (renn fest, etc). So you can have your "SCA" arms and your "Renn Fest" arms.
Diversity is the spice of medieval life! :D
Well then there you have it! This shall be my common heraldry I suppose. Like I said before, when I join my SCA family I'll quarter it lol. I think I'll play around with it a bit more, and show the results in about another month or 2.
Scratch that, here is what I shall use till I decide to change it. What do you think!! ;D did I say a month or two, I just came up with the idea. ok, that is all.
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It looks good Aiden. It would fit the SCA heraldry requirements and rules (by design).
I was looking at your other selections too. I thought the 'black stag rampant with the crown Or (gold)' and brown antlers was distinctive. Also, it does not show 'as clear' with the chevron in the background. It has some nice detail and should be visible to the eyes. I would shrink the stag to the shield proportionally and bring it to the base of the shield under the chevron. This way you see the detail of both in full. Just my two cents.
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Now can you say it Heraldically?
Don't feel bad if you can't. I've only had mine 26 years and still can't get it all straight most days. (see sig below) ;)
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It looks good Aiden. It would fit the SCA heraldry requirements and rules (by design).
I was looking at your other selections too. I thought the 'black stag rampant with the crown Or (gold)' and brown antlers was distinctive. Also, it does not show 'as clear' with the chevron in the background. It has some nice detail and should be visible to the eyes. I would shrink the stag to the shield proportionally and bring it to the base of the shield under the chevron. This way you see the detail of both in full. Just my two cents.
Yes I see what you mean, i would use the black hart if it wasn't the game if thrones one 😝 but all i did was take that hart and make it colored into the one you just saw. Again like I said, this is primarily what it will look like, in the future there will be variations. By summer or midsummers eve It will be official. I hope. But I will experiment with your suggestions Lord Dane.
Now can you say it Heraldically?
Don't feel bad if you can't. I've only had mine 26 years and still can't get it all straight most days. (see sig below) ;)
Wait, wait... I got this hmm... Here we go : "A rampant hart, lying in front of two pointed chevrons, under a chief baring three formee crosses" i just winged it. Lol
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I quite like it! :D And I like the surcoat you came up with to go with it, too.
Now let's see if I can get this without looking up anything:
"Argent, over two chevrons vert, a rampant hart proper [not sure how the location of the crown Or would be blazoned], on a chief vert, three crosses pattée [or formée], argent."
Or...something like that.... :-\
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I quite like it! :D And I like the surcoat you came up with to go with it, too.
Now let's see if I can get this without looking up anything:
"Argent, over two chevrons vert, a rampant hart proper [not sure how the location of the crown Or would be blazoned], on a chief vert, three crosses pattée [or formée], argent."
Or...something like that.... :-\
Sounds legit, here are the meanings behind everything(incase you don't know:
•Hart: one who will not fight unless provoked; peace and harmony.
•Crown(on hart): Defender of a fortress, token of civic honour; one who first mounted the breach in the walls of a fortress
•Formée Cross: Military honour(I use this because I am german and reminds me of german iron cross)
•Chevron: Protection; Builders or others who have accomplished some work of faithful service
•Chief: Top one-third of the shield; signifies dominion and authority; often granted as a special reward for prudence and wisdom or successful command in war
•Green: Hope, joy, and loyalty in love
•White: Peace and sincerity
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This is an update on my heraldic design. I know I said that would be official for now, I should have stressed that it was still be edited. Any how, this is another look at one of my ideas. Ignore the poor quality of the surcoat.
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I like it. Nice job.
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cool
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I like this one a lot.
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I like it too, and it doesn't violate any of the heraldry rules either. :)
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ugh the inkwell program is such a pain in my butt! I hate Java...I did when I was learning and I do now that I have to use it...
I might end up just using photoshop to make my heraldry design!
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I really like it, too!
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ugh the inkwell program is such a pain in my butt! I hate Java...I did when I was learning and I do now that I have to use it...
I might end up just using photoshop to make my heraldry design!
Ya I used paint for this. But to get the shield shape to be right i got it off a heraldry design site. Its the same as most of the coat of arms the men on this site have.
Yes I quite like it! I really want to use a stag but I want the other stuff too so it wont really work so I may drop the whole stag thing. I'm still debating on whether or not to keep the bordering chevrons or not. My biggest concern is how the surcotte will look. Im thinking of making the green chief on both sides so I can be more easily identified. Except the back won't have the formee crosses. I may add a secondary chevron like thing at the bottom. I will be sure to post another update later this month.
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ugh the inkwell program is such a pain in my butt! I hate Java...I did when I was learning and I do now that I have to use it...
I might end up just using photoshop to make my heraldry design!
Ya I used paint for this. But to get the shield shape to be right i got it off a heraldry design site. Its the same as most of the coat of arms the men on this site have.
Yes I quite like it! I really want to use a stag but I want the other stuff too so it wont really work so I may drop the whole stag thing. I'm still debating on whether or not to keep the bordering chevrons or not. My biggest concern is how the surcotte will look. Im thinking of making the green chief on both sides so I can be more easily identified. Except the back won't have the formee crosses. I may add a secondary chevron like thing at the bottom. I will be sure to post another update later this month.
A green chief border at top with the 3 crosses, and a stag over the white background - just drop the chevron and it will be easy to keep the stag without looking too "busy" for early heraldry
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ugh the inkwell program is such a pain in my butt! I hate Java...I did when I was learning and I do now that I have to use it...
I might end up just using photoshop to make my heraldry design!
Ya I used paint for this. But to get the shield shape to be right i got it off a heraldry design site. Its the same as most of the coat of arms the men on this site have.
Yes I quite like it! I really want to use a stag but I want the other stuff too so it wont really work so I may drop the whole stag thing. I'm still debating on whether or not to keep the bordering chevrons or not. My biggest concern is how the surcotte will look. Im thinking of making the green chief on both sides so I can be more easily identified. Except the back won't have the formee crosses. I may add a secondary chevron like thing at the bottom. I will be sure to post another update later this month.
A green chief border at top with the 3 crosses, and a stag over the white background - just drop the chevron and it will be easy to keep the stag without looking too "busy" for early heraldry
I did something with that with earlier pieces of mine. But they had different elements. I'll go back over and play around a but more and post the results.
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ugh the inkwell program is such a pain in my butt! I hate Java...I did when I was learning and I do now that I have to use it...
I might end up just using photoshop to make my heraldry design!
Yeah, there's no "perfect" heraldry editor out there, unfortunately.
For the Order website, we've standardized around a 170 x 200 resolution. But I generally ask people to submit a much larger image to me and let me resize it.
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This is the height and spacing I would modify all the other eagles at in my other mock ups so they are evenly spaced from the top and side borders...I think...
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/CoA5.png)
I like the key I just wish the program let me change it so it was horizontal instead of vertical...also probably need to adjust it so the shaft of the key is in the middle rather than the picture itself (it is at 50% but the program puts the whole picture in the middle rather than the shaft of the key).
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/CoA1.png)
Some cool variations with 3 eagles instead of 2:
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/CoA4.png)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/CoA3.png)
Opinions or observations?
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i like the first one.
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First or second; first is first choice, second is second choice. Purely coincidental.
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i like the first one.
Yeah, I do too but I think towers might be overdone a bit and really like the idea of keys...maybe if I find a different type of key and use some art editing program...
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/keys-large.png)
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I like the first one, too, but I can understand why you're worried that castles might be overused.
Maybe try a variation with two keys crossed in saltire?
A castle and a key might make for some interesting symbolism, though it would also be that much more difficult to reproduce it on things. ;)
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Don't know how much it matters to you guys, but most of what passes for heraldry these days, including the descriptions of the various elements, are not medieval but 16th - 18th century meanings. Heraldry was not an exact science in the middle ages, and there was pretty much no regulation of it for nearly the entire medieval period. Until some time in the 14th century the most common way of acquiring arms was simply to invent them for yourself. It wasn't until 1415 that any official organization existed to regulate them and settle disputes. So if you portay a knight from before then, they sky's really the limit, within reason, and what we know about trends of heraldic design throughout history.
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I like the key I just wish the program let me change it so it was horizontal instead of vertical
I missed this since there were pretty pictures.
Pick the object by clicking on the design square in the middle, and it has rotation there. It's mildly wonky but put "0" (without quotes) in the rotation box (it'll be empty by default) and then click the +15 / -15 to rotate it around. You can do 90* for horizontal, or do 45* and -45* with two of them to do crossed keys like you have below.
It's a fairly versatile program given the $0 price tag. :D
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Hi
There are at least two heraldry groups on FB. Heraldry Society and International Heraldry Society. Both have helped me in my design.
Timothy
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I like the key I just wish the program let me change it so it was horizontal instead of vertical...also probably need to adjust it so the shaft of the key is in the middle rather than the picture itself (it is at 50% but the program puts the whole picture in the middle rather than the shaft of the key).
It does let you change all of those things. To rotate horizontal, edit the "rotate" field to have a 90 or 270. To shift it left or right, change the "Horizontal" and "Vertical" values.
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Don't know how much it matters to you guys, but most of what passes for heraldry these days, including the descriptions of the various elements, are not medieval but 16th - 18th century meanings. Heraldry was not an exact science in the middle ages, and there was pretty much no regulation of it for nearly the entire medieval period. Until some time in the 14th century the most common way of acquiring arms was simply to invent them for yourself. It wasn't until 1415 that any official organization existed to regulate them and settle disputes. So if you portay a knight from before then, they sky's really the limit, within reason, and what we know about trends of heraldic design throughout history.
Yes, this is a good reminder. This is partly why we don't enforce any of it, in terms of arms used in the Order. But I try to encourage people to work within the rules, in case it matters to them, or they want to also register their arms with the SCA or another organization.
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Can't forget that if your heraldry looks to much like another SCA member in the same group as you, it is invalid.
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So my designs were turned down as someone already has picked out green field and chevron division in or and 2 charges above and 1 below...so I worked with an SCA herald and came up with this. It is a Cant on my name as Costa also is the root word for Costilla...rib...I think it will look fierce in the battlefield and on a jupon!
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/Jorge2.png)
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so thanks, now we'll all be hungry for ribs when we see you shield
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If I ever face you in any SCA battle wearing that tunic ... I am going to cover you in Honey Smoked flavor BBQ sauce at the onset & banquet on your bones. :P
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Haha we will see who eats who...
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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I like it! It's very refreshingly different.
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Agreed, different and nice!
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Thanks...I can't wait to see it in darker tones and translated onto my shield and jupon/surcoat...the complex jupon for late 14th century Spaniard I want might be a bit beyond my sewing skills at the moment so I might go for a more traditional French surcoat for mid to late 14th century...also even if made in linen not having it cover my sleeves might help keep me cool in the North Carolina summer!
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"Per pale Vert and Or, four pairs of rib bones issuant from the flanks counterchanged." that sounds about right...at least what the SCA herald sent me for it...
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I hate to be that guy, but... those bones look more like femurs than ribs
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I hate to be that guy, but... those bones look more like femurs than ribs
Here are a few examples of ribs in heraldry...remember this are issuant from the flanks...so you dont see the whole rib form...
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/ribs.jpg)
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"Per pale Vert and Or, four pairs of rib bones issuant from the flanks counterchanged." that sounds about right...at least what the SCA herald sent me for it...
Are you happy enough with it to add the image and text to the Order's roster? I can add those at any time.
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"Per pale Vert and Or, four pairs of rib bones issuant from the flanks counterchanged." that sounds about right...at least what the SCA herald sent me for it...
Are you happy enough with it to add the image and text to the Order's roster? I can add those at any time.
He is going to send me a copy of the heraldic device in darker shades which is what I prefer. The lighter shade was used for SCA submission so there would be no issues with them. When I get that new device sent to me it should be ready for roster...I will write something up for it etc.
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OK that sounds good. I could also change the hues on the image you have, if you want. Either way works.
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OK that sounds good. I could also change the hues on the image you have, if you want. Either way works.
No need to have two people do the same thing :)
Thank you for the offer though!
Now I need to get some pictures taken of me in my kit...also need to get heraldry done up for my surcoat and shield!
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do ittttt
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ugh the inkwell program is such a pain in my butt! I hate Java...I did when I was learning and I do now that I have to use it...
I might end up just using photoshop to make my heraldry design!
Ya I used paint for this. But to get the shield shape to be right i got it off a heraldry design site. Its the same as most of the coat of arms the men on this site have.
Yes I quite like it! I really want to use a stag but I want the other stuff too so it wont really work so I may drop the whole stag thing. I'm still debating on whether or not to keep the bordering chevrons or not. My biggest concern is how the surcotte will look. Im thinking of making the green chief on both sides so I can be more easily identified. Except the back won't have the formee crosses. I may add a secondary chevron like thing at the bottom. I will be sure to post another update later this month.
A green chief border at top with the 3 crosses, and a stag over the white background - just drop the chevron and it will be easy to keep the stag without looking too "busy" for early heraldry
Like this? (I'll smooth it out later)
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Very nice aiden!
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/Jorge_de_la_Costa_Gold.png)
Edit: Here is the final submission for heraldry :)
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ugh the inkwell program is such a pain in my butt! I hate Java...I did when I was learning and I do now that I have to use it...
I might end up just using photoshop to make my heraldry design!
Ya I used paint for this. But to get the shield shape to be right i got it off a heraldry design site. Its the same as most of the coat of arms the men on this site have.
Yes I quite like it! I really want to use a stag but I want the other stuff too so it wont really work so I may drop the whole stag thing. I'm still debating on whether or not to keep the bordering chevrons or not. My biggest concern is how the surcotte will look. Im thinking of making the green chief on both sides so I can be more easily identified. Except the back won't have the formee crosses. I may add a secondary chevron like thing at the bottom. I will be sure to post another update later this month.
A green chief border at top with the 3 crosses, and a stag over the white background - just drop the chevron and it will be easy to keep the stag without looking too "busy" for early heraldry
Like this? (I'll smooth it out later)
Bingo! I might stretch the shield a bit taller so that the stag has a bit more room, change the proportions maybe, but that's exactly what I had in mind.
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Edit: Here is the final submission for heraldry :)
Added!
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Edit: Here is the final submission for heraldry :)
Added!
Awesome, to add a picture of me in Kit and add a paragraph or so and modify my name so it doesn't say Jorge A. (I would like Don Jorge de la Costa instead :)) I just can send you a PM with links etc?
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Yes, that'll work just fine. Send it on over!
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ugh the inkwell program is such a pain in my butt! I hate Java...I did when I was learning and I do now that I have to use it...
I might end up just using photoshop to make my heraldry design!
Ya I used paint for this. But to get the shield shape to be right i got it off a heraldry design site. Its the same as most of the coat of arms the men on this site have.
Yes I quite like it! I really want to use a stag but I want the other stuff too so it wont really work so I may drop the whole stag thing. I'm still debating on whether or not to keep the bordering chevrons or not. My biggest concern is how the surcotte will look. Im thinking of making the green chief on both sides so I can be more easily identified. Except the back won't have the formee crosses. I may add a secondary chevron like thing at the bottom. I will be sure to post another update later this month.
A green chief border at top with the 3 crosses, and a stag over the white background - just drop the chevron and it will be easy to keep the stag without looking too "busy" for early heraldry
Like this? (I'll smooth it out later)
Bingo! I might stretch the shield a bit taller so that the stag has a bit more room, change the proportions maybe, but that's exactly what I had in mind.
roughly, hows that
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A crowned stag... You part of House Baratheon?
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I like it
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A crowned stag... You part of House Baratheon?
Not that I know of, but the Lennon coat of arms has a stag in it.
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Btw crowned stag wouldn't work for SCA...not sure if anyone told you yet...but yeah conflict for that probably.
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Btw crowned stag wouldn't work for SCA...not sure if anyone told you yet...but yeah conflict for that probably.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s)
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People might confuse you for King Joffrey Baratheon. That wouldn't be good...
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Btw crowned stag wouldn't work for SCA...not sure if anyone told you yet...but yeah conflict for that probably.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s)
Join the SCA Heraldry group on Facebook and have one of their heralds work with you and make sure there are no conflicts...
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People might confuse you for King Joffrey Baratheon. That wouldn't be good...
lol
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He is right. SCA Heraldry rules on crowns in heraldry must be associated with crown titles obtained throughout the society. If you held a 'crown title' or 'ranking' or 'office' that permitted said crown, it would be permitted in your personal coat of arms/heraldry within SCA and acceptable. Otherwise, the crown is not allowable by their rules. I'm an officer in the Baron of the Bridge (SCA - East Kingdom).
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Well, then I have no choice but to ditch it then.
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Here is the final draft of my coat of arms! Enjoy! This will be my Heraldry until I come up with a more unique design. But I need a brake from this for awhile and concentrate on other projects.
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Website roster is updated.
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Is this the proper way to say my heraldry thus far: Argent, over chevron vert, a rampant hart proper, on a chief vert, three crosses formée, argent.
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Is this the proper way to say my heraldry thus far: Argent, over chevron vert, a rampant hart proper, on a chief vert, three crosses formée, argent.
Where's the chevron vert?
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Is this the proper way to say my heraldry thus far: Argent, over chevron vert, a rampant hart proper, on a chief vert, three crosses formée, argent.
Where's the chevron vert?
Woops! That was for a different heraldry my bad. How's this: Argent, a rampant hart proper, on a chief vert, three crosses formée, argent.
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Woops! That was for a different heraldry my bad. How's this: Argent, a rampant hart proper, on a chief vert, three crosses formée, argent.
That looks pretty good. I'm trying to decide if it's better to put the rampant hart before or after describing the chief. I'm thinking it's clearer the way you have it.
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Yeah, I'd say having the hart before the chief is more clear. :)
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Thanks, Sir Edward for putting mine up as well - I still need to figure out the appropriate heraldic description, however.
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Woops! That was for a different heraldry my bad. How's this: Argent, a rampant hart proper, on a chief vert, three crosses formée, argent.
You have laid out the blazon very well. :)
If I might suggest:
“Argent, a hart rampant proper, on a chief vert three crosses formée argent”
Take, for example, the very similar blazon of Henry Russell (c. 1455):
“Argent, a lyon rampant gules, on a chief sable three escallops of the first.”
The phrase “of the first” meaning the escallops are argent.
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Thanks, Sir Edward for putting mine up as well - I still need to figure out the appropriate heraldic description, however.
Maybe we can help, let's see the heraldry :)
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Already up on my Order "about" knight page - main thing I think is to change the background from white to green/black...
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Yep, there's a reason I went with my SCA arms for the Order. 27 years old and I still can't speak them heraldically.
If I may make a suggestion for putting it on a shield? Make two stencils. One for the Iron Cross and one for the Stag so you can draw them again easier. Oh, and be prepared for Jews, especially Ashkenazi, to look at you really funny.
Have you submitted this to the SCA College of Heralds?
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Yep, there's a reason I went with my SCA arms for the Order. 27 years old and I still can't speak them heraldically.
If I may make a suggestion for putting it on a shield? Make two stencils. One for the Iron Cross and one for the Stag so you can draw them again easier. Oh, and be prepared for Jews, especially Ashkenazi, to look at you really funny.
Have you submitted this to the SCA College of Heralds?
Why? Because the formée crosses look like the German Iron cross lol. I am not in SCA yet, but it might be good to submit it before a similar one is taken.
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Hi
I was reading this thread and I had a question on the SCA and other similar groups. I understand that they have their own rules regarding heraldry and what they will and won't approve. If a person wants to use their own arms can they really say no to it's use?
Thanks
Timothy
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SCA is funny in what they deem historical, or appropriately suited as far as specifications in heraldry. Keeping it simple is the standard. No pun intended. Actual family crest is hard to deny by the College of scribes who maintain the heraldric rules. Their rules can be challenged and changed by petition if there is questionable conflict.
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thanks
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The SCA also discourages (or disallows, I'm not sure which) the use of existing heraldry from the real world. That is, you shouldn't use your own family's arms.
Getting it to pass is also a challenge from the standpoint of uniqueness. If it too closely resembles other already-registered arms, then it won't pass. They require at least two points of difference from all other arms, if I recall correctly.
Simple is better, but some of the simplest arms are also difficult because they may resemble something else too closely. For instance, even if you use a bird that no one else is using, most birds can look the same from a distance, so if the colors and positioning match, it might still not pass.
Generally speaking, if you want to register your arms, you should get it passed before painting it on anything.
In terms of them disallowing your use of heraldry that is not passed-- Obviously they can't stop you from painting shields, or using it at non-SCA events. But they will probably enforce it if you try to use that heraldry in an official tournament. Beyond that, I'm not sure.
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I’ve been using my non-registered arms (http://modernchivalry.org/knights/view/Rodney) for over 12 years in the SCA.
The College of Heralds has shot down more of my name and arms submissions than I can recall. In one instance, a regional deputy denied a submission that was written for me by another herald! :o
At this point I’m over it and use what I want on the field of combat and in tournaments.
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I’ve been using my non-registered arms (http://modernchivalry.org/knights/view/Rodney) for over 12 years in the SCA.
The College of Heralds has shot down more of my name and arms submissions than I can recall. In one instance, a regional deputy denied a submission that was written for me by another herald! :o
At this point I’m over it and use what I want on the field of combat and in tournaments.
Ack! Another herald wrote my stuff...hopefully it passes...my name is pretty easy to register as the name shows up in 15th century manuscripts...lets hope my heraldry passes...if not I will wear my tunic anyway...because you know...I am a rebel :)
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Yeah, the results can vary quite a bit. I registered mine back in 2008, and it went through on the first attempt... which is a good thing, considering I painted shields already, and wasn't going to change it. ;)
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What's the link for registration submission? Also, am I correct in guessing you must be an active SCA member to do so?
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What's the link for registration submission? Also, am I correct in guessing you must be an active SCA member to do so?
Technically yes, but I'm not sure if they bother to verify that or not.
Do they have a link for it? That's a good question. I did mine at the herald's tent at Pennsic.
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What's the link for registration submission? Also, am I correct in guessing you must be an active SCA member to do so?
You submit you stuff through your Kingdoms Heralds (who's your local branch Herald?), and the SCA got permission to not worry about conflicting with real world designs so long as they are not direct copies. You can use your families heraldry if you can prove you have a mundane legal right to, as some have.
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What's the link for registration submission? Also, am I correct in guessing you must be an active SCA member to do so?
You submit you stuff through your Kingdoms Heralds (who's your local branch Herald?), and the SCA got permission to not worry about conflicting with real world designs so long as they are not direct copies. You can use your families heraldry if you can prove you have a mundane legal right to, as some have.
My ribs are common family heraldry for Acosta family names...but the colors and design is my own...I should be fine :)
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What's the link for registration submission? Also, am I correct in guessing you must be an active SCA member to do so?
You submit you stuff through your Kingdoms Heralds (who's your local branch Herald?), and the SCA got permission to not worry about conflicting with real world designs so long as they are not direct copies. You can use your families heraldry if you can prove you have a mundane legal right to, as some have.
My ribs are common family heraldry for Acosta family names...but the colors and design is my own...I should be fine :)
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Those ribs are quite common. I had them just the other day with some BBQ sauce.
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As promised, this summer I would edit my heraldry in hope I come closer to my goal. Here is an updated version I decided on. The difference here is I made the stag more simple, I also made the green slightly darker. but I cant decide on the right shade of green that I want. I also smoothed and thinned out the border a bit as well. I think either this summer or the next, I will try to join a local SCA group near Philadelphia and submit my heraldry, that is if I decide that this is it.
Here I also have an idea for a surcoat. I cannot find a way to incorporate the stag though. I chose this pattern because if I were to make a hart/stag crest for my helm it would replace the need for it on my surcoat. Though, I could just put the chief and 3 formee crosses on the surcoat on the bosom. Opinions?
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Nice job, Aiden. The parti-color surcoat with counter-changing crosses is perfect look. Go with it. ;D
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I actually really like that. Nice job!
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Very cool!
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That looks great! Well done! :)
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I think either this summer or the next, I will try to join a local SCA group near Philadelphia and submit my heraldry, that is if I decide that this is it.
So... I'll admit something now, I am a very picky person when it comes to designing something. Since my last update to my heraldry there was an essence to it that seemed to discomfort me, in the sense that something was off about the design. While at the MD Faire I went into a book shop and scrolled through a book about heraldry(I don't remember what the book was Titled). It talked about styles and purposes behind heraldic designs. One of the sections described how often an animal, such as a lion, would fill up as much space as possible on the ground it was on. So after comparing the initial art style to my stags art style, it didn't match up. That's when I realized it was the stag I found out of place in my heraldry. Not to say my stags art style didn't exist, it just wasn't popular for an early 12th/13th coat of arms. So my options at this point was to either ditch the stag, or redesign the whole thing. Seeing how I am not an artist, I decided to just ditch it. I'll instead incorporate it as a crest on a helm. Besides, I have found it much more appealing without it.
So here is an older design I considered once before, except compared to all my other ones this is a properly sized and proportioned crest. It's certainly more classical to the period and it's simple. Now, I considered having an ermine background on the white, behind the vert chevron. Only problem is, I don't know how to get it on there and have it look nice. I could just leave this the way it is of course, but if somebody is good at making heraldry I would be very appreciative if they could make the heraldry with the ermine.
Now, I realize that making it more simplistic will make it harder to pass for any future SCA purposes, but I can always make a desperate Coat of Arms if this doesn't pass.
Thoughts?
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I think it looks great with the chevron! That's something that's often overlooked by people, is that the earlier heraldry tended to be more geometric and simple. And, as an added bonus, it's easier to paint on a shield. ;)
For the ermine, are you thinking an ermine field (lots of little ermines, some potentially intersecting the chevron), or just a few individual ermines in specific places around the chevron? It's possible these may make it look a lot more "busy", but sometimes you can be surprised.
On the SCA front, it's hard to say. Sometimes simple gets through just because most people tend to start with something complicated. Avoiding dragons and swords helps a lot here. :)
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As with my own, Page Aiden. I like it- congratulations! As you can see, I'm horrible at photography, but you get the point. In case you wondered, I had my shield done at oakheartarmory.com - good price, too.
(http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv64/ebonpaladin/Armor/IMG_0159_zpsaee55e17.jpg)
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I like your new (old) idea of the chevron. It has a classic, old school, heraldry feel too it. I must admit that the stag pops as well, but reproducing it could prove to be a pain. Trust me, I have a bonnacon!
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I think it looks great with the chevron! That's something that's often overlooked by people, is that the earlier heraldry tended to be more geometric and simple. And, as an added bonus, it's easier to paint on a shield. ;)
Both of these things, very much.
I like it!
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I like it (but I'm prone to chevrons)!
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I think it looks great with the chevron! That's something that's often overlooked by people, is that the earlier heraldry tended to be more geometric and simple. And, as an added bonus, it's easier to paint on a shield. ;)
For the ermine, are you thinking an ermine field (lots of little ermines, some potentially intersecting the chevron), or just a few individual ermines in specific places around the chevron? It's possible these may make it look a lot more "busy", but sometimes you can be surprised.
On the SCA front, it's hard to say. Sometimes simple gets through just because most people tend to start with something complicated. Avoiding dragons and swords helps a lot here. :)
For the ermine I was considering maybe three on the left side of the chevron and 3 on the right, with 4 underneath. But I agree, the ermine may make it too busy. It would look better to have an ermine field without the chevron, but I like chevrons too much to do that.
I may tweak the green more, I can't seem to find a vert that satisfies me. That won't take very long though.
Something I have been looking to figure out is how to match the surcoat, helms, and other accessories to the heraldry. For a surcoat, I could easily make multiple ones with different designs. Such as having one for a tournament and one for the battlefield. Plus it'd vary based on the centuries I do. My only concern is holding up to the traditional heraldry and surcoat styles. Making the two properly match. Old painting and pictures usually just show a single colored surcoat. Sometimes even having the shield itself on the surcoat. The helm may take a few tries.
As with my own, Page Aiden. I like it- congratulations! As you can see, I'm horrible at photography, but you get the point. In case you wondered, I had my shield done at oakheartarmory.com - good price, too.
I have an Oakheart armory shield also! I have the last heraldry I designed painted on it (without a finish incase I decided to change it). Great shield make. Though the edges seem to get really beat up, perhaps it's be better if I got a leather or steel trim. But where to get thoughts I can't recall.
Alightly off topic... Do you think the concept of having your heraldry on a surcoat was the equivalence to our dog tags today?
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Very astute reason and choice. I changed my COA as well when I found out my original was wrong. At least you didn't invest too much time and money into surcoats and shield painting your old COA! ;)
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Dog tags? Yes, something like that- a means to be able to discern friend from foe. Which is why modern armies use uniforms, with identifying patches, and dog tags. Heralds would be able to 'read' your blazon and announce your arrival at tournaments and you'd be able to be recorded in the rolls.
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I could see the surcoat acting as an identifier like that. However, historically this wasn't always the case. There are examples of the surcoat tying into the heraldry well, and other cases of the surcoat looking nothing like the heraldry. The shield itself was the identifier on the field originally, before plate armor took over, and the heraldry moved to banners and pennons, and sometimes horse barding as well.
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I could see the surcoat acting as an identifier like that. However, historically this wasn't always the case. There are examples of the surcoat tying into the heraldry well, and other cases of the surcoat looking nothing like the heraldry. The shield itself was the identifier on the field originally, before plate armor took over, and the heraldry moved to banners and pennons, and sometimes horse barding as well.
I remember seeing crests that had nothing to do with the coat of arms, either. Definitely some diversity amongst the heraldic devices, even for an individual.
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I could see the surcoat acting as an identifier like that. However, historically this wasn't always the case. There are examples of the surcoat tying into the heraldry well, and other cases of the surcoat looking nothing like the heraldry. The shield itself was the identifier on the field originally, before plate armor took over, and the heraldry moved to banners and pennons, and sometimes horse barding as well.
I remember seeing crests that had nothing to do with the coat of arms, either. Definitely some diversity amongst the heraldic devices, even for an individual.
That's great to know! I had a great surcoat design in mind, was just a bit hesitant is all. I plan to do a party style surcoat like I posted earlier, except the right side will have vert chevrons instead of vert formee crosses. I think that'll look rather handsome.