ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir William on 2013-02-01, 20:22:15
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I was toying with the idea of getting rid of all of my current collection of armor and starting from scratch; then I segued into thinking about whether or not my armor makes me credible, or if by wearing it, I give credence to the armor?
Does armor make one a knight? No, no...it doesn't- although it can make you feel knightly; it certainly did for me before I took the oath of knighthood myself...then getting inducted into the Order further solidified it for me, but what about all those who are termed cos-players? I'm sure a good number of them feed into it and believe themselves to be...what's your take on it?
Let's discuss.
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It certainly goes beyond the armor you wear, of course. Though as a practical suggestion-- I'd consider getting the new stuff first, and let go of the old stuff as you go, so you're never forced to be "naked". :)
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Excellent point, Lord Commander...not much fun cruising the Faire in mundane attire.
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I consider myself a knight, yet the only armour I have is my fencing kevlars. ^_^
The problem with a discussion like this is that the definition needs to be flexible. If you put down that knight needs these qualifications, people who deserve it may not classify, and those who do not deserve it may. When a set system like that is put into effect, over time the system becomes bureaucratic and heartless, which is not something we, as knights should stand for.
The way my Order selects knights, and the way we recommend to the movement we started, is that a candidate is a knight if considered knightly by all existing knights of any given order. If they can impress all in an order, then they fit the qualifications FOR that order, and if they should be approved for an order, they could be considered a knight. Whether or not they choose to join said order, or remain a lone knight is up to them, but from the point that they are approved for an order, they classify as a knight.
As for knightly living, it's merely a title. If you consider yourself to be living a knightly existence, then you can classify yourself as a knight. But a self-given title is worthless if you are the only one who acknowledges it. You have to live knightly, and have people think you are worthy of such a title before it is of any real value.
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Excellent topic. I'll spill my mind on it for a bit, and try to keep it relatively brief. :)
IMO, Armor doesn't make a Knight any more than a Knight makes the armor "knightly". Now, "first impression", someone in a full harness tends to be thought of as a knight or warrior at first glance by most people. Only by interacting with the person can you begin to find out if they act in a manner befitting a knight; whether they wear armor or not. A knave in armor is no knight, yet a knight without armor is still a knightly.
I find cos-players to be on a different spectrum than us, odd as that may sound. They're interpreting a specific person, typically fantasy, whereas, we are as ourselves, and basing our notions, actions and equipment on historical precedence. If we're talking anime and such, they're not going to actually be aliens, or shoot fireballs out of their hands, so it's completely a fantasy context. And it makes them happy, so, more power to 'em!
The biggest difference I feel between myself and people who do that, is when I take off the armor and go home, I still try to act knightly when I'm away from everything. I open doors for people, say please and thank you ... common courtesy, to most, but something lost to many.
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It certainly goes beyond the armor you wear, of course. Though as a practical suggestion-- I'd consider getting the new stuff first, and let go of the old stuff as you go, so you're never forced to be "naked". :)
I say let go of the personal materialism & embrace selflessness above all. Being knightly certainly entails more virtue than one's tin-can & armory (although I consider it to be an essential component but that's just me). ;)
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I know this is late but after reading this I think I have a mind to respond to this discussion.
What makes me a Knight is three things:
1. Living by a Warrior Code of Moral Principles and Virtues that makes me stand out in spite of appearances (with or without armor)
2. Being set apart from the rest of a society in which it willingly degrades and disregards Morality including the notion of Honor (save those that recognize it and respect it).
3. Even with no armor or sword, being a Knight does not mean having the equipment and showing it off as though you were a soldier heavily decorated for service in a combat mission. Rather being a Knight is a choice to live with Moral Integrity and Honor in your daily life and showing your Chivalry by deeds rather than words.
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In my mind I would like to draw a line on the ground and ask myself if I had all the armor in the world I could ever want do I do that sword and shield justice, do I present myself in a manner comparable to that of Sir Marshal and what those articles would have stood for for him? If so then I am truly being knightly, however if I am not upholding the code than I am but a man in shiny metal. Consider what was spoken by the son of King Edward in one of my favorite films A Knights Tale to "Sir Ulric" before he was truly knighted, and I think that would be applicable to this topic.
I was toying with the idea of getting rid of all of my current collection of armor and starting from scratch; then I segued into thinking about whether or not my armor makes me credible, or if by wearing it, I give credence to the armor?
Does armor make one a knight? No, no...it doesn't- although it can make you feel knightly; it certainly did for me before I took the oath of knighthood myself...then getting inducted into the Order further solidified it for me, but what about all those who are termed cos-players? I'm sure a good number of them feed into it and believe themselves to be...what's your take on it?
Let's discuss.
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Well said, RackThor. As historically inaccurate as A Knights Tale is, for entertainment and intent of the story, it's one of my favorite movies. I know that scene well.
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As do we all, I think. That's a true sentiment, nevermind when or who delivered it.
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A real knight uses his whitebelt to keep his surcoat closed.
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Who wears open surcoats? lol
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Who wears open surcoats? lol
Well sometimes I like to let loose & let the surcoat just hang there like a robe. Now where are my slippers???
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I say that the armour is simply an outward expression of the knight within, especially in our context. It's really just letting a person's chivalry shine out for all to see, similar to an amplifier to an electric guitar. Does it make the sound? No, but its loudness and prescence are the reason you can't play like a rockstar without one.
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I have often pondered this very questions myself, and it is one that I pose to each and every Squire I take under my wing prior to them becoming a knight. My humble opinion is that Knights are not made, they are recognized. What makes one a knight is a special something inside them that sets them apart from thier fellow man. It radiates a leadership on the field and off ( a natural willingness to listen to them), a sense of trust that allows people to divulge thier inner thoughts to them with complete confidence that they can be trusted (even if they hardly know them), an ability to be strong when others need them to brace upon, and to be gentle when they need to be comforting. A knights greatest virtues are in how they affect those around them in a positive manner. Does this mean a knight is morally perfect, by no means. A knight is a mortal and as such will fail to live up to thier beliefs from time to time, but a knight that believes in a code has the strength to aknowledge his weaknesses and failings and get back up and try again. To the point of armour... I believe that the armor is akin to a uniform, its so that people see us and know we are knights, not for our egos, but rather for thier ease. From a marketing standpoint, the flash of the armour and the clash of swords draws people to us, and allows us to meet them so that we find those diamonds in the rough in the crowd.
Just my 2 cents worth my Brothers.
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Well said, Sir Steven.
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Sir Nathan, I concur with you on this one.
I have often pondered this very questions myself, and it is one that I pose to each and every Squire I take under my wing prior to them becoming a knight. My humble opinion is that Knights are not made, they are recognized. What makes one a knight is a special something inside them that sets them apart from thier fellow man. It radiates a leadership on the field and off ( a natural willingness to listen to them), a sense of trust that allows people to divulge thier inner thoughts to them with complete confidence that they can be trusted (even if they hardly know them), an ability to be strong when others need them to brace upon, and to be gentle when they need to be comforting. A knights greatest virtues are in how they affect those around them in a positive manner. Does this mean a knight is morally perfect, by no means. A knight is a mortal and as such will fail to live up to thier beliefs from time to time, but a knight that believes in a code has the strength to aknowledge his weaknesses and failings and get back up and try again. To the point of armour... I believe that the armor is akin to a uniform, its so that people see us and know we are knights, not for our egos, but rather for thier ease. From a marketing standpoint, the flash of the armour and the clash of swords draws people to us, and allows us to meet them so that we find those diamonds in the rough in the crowd.
Just my 2 cents worth my Brothers.
Sir Steven: Well said! I agree on this matter!
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Well stated & spoken like a veteran, Sir Steven. :)
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What makes a man a knight, is not his tools but his fortitude and understanding. The knowing that he never stands alone even when he has fallen, that his sword shows compassion equally to death, that what must be done is not always right, a man who can show kindness before and after a war to his enemies, but never during, to have honor and pride but never force upon them the job of the crutch, to have respect for all things, and to hold truth, honor, loyalty, reverence, and courtesy above all material things. That is what makes a knight. (to me any way)
As for the armor, it was there for a few reasons.
1) No man does nothing (to defend himself) if he wants to live.
2) Knights under the system of vassalage were worth protecting as they are key to the social ways of the time.
3) It was not really a symbol of the knight, many have worn armor and never had the title.
4) The first reason.
5) Reason 1
6) Reasons 1,4,5
Ultimately, knights did not parade themselves around in full harness (unless at tourney). However, in the today many would not assume you are a knight if you didn’t have armor unless they were familiar with historical textiles and wears.
I know this is an old subject and I am quite late but that is my thoughts.
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What is important is sharing your thoughts, good Sir. Well-spoken words should always reflect the intended meaning without being perceived by others as anything less. Acting upon them is what must be done in good faith and what makes a man knightly. :)
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What makes a man a knight, is not his tools but his fortitude and understanding. The knowing that he never stands alone even when he has fallen, that his sword shows compassion equally to death, that what must be done is not always right, a man who can show kindness before and after a war to his enemies, but never during, to have honor and pride but never force upon them the job of the crutch, to have respect for all things, and to hold truth, honor, loyalty, reverence, and courtesy above all material things. That is what makes a knight. (to me any way)
Well spoken Sir Vander.
Ultimately, knights did not parade themselves around in full harness (unless at tourney). However, in the today many would not assume you are a knight if you didn’t have armor unless they were familiar with historical textiles and wears.
True indeed.
hat is important is sharing your thoughts, good Sir. Well-spoken words should always reflect the intended meaning without being perceived by others as anything less. Acting upon them is what must be done in good faith and what makes a man knightly. :)
Amen and Amen! Well said Lord Dane.
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I don't think armor has anything to do with whether you are a knight or not. Its in the way that you carry yourself in everyday life. If you strive to live by the code then you are a knight in all aspects of the meaning of it. You knightly manner is your armor, the way that you live the code defines your character. Most attacks in the modern age are used with words so your defense is your code.
The armor IMHO is for show and to make us recognizable to others although your actions should make you recognizable too. But you are right it would not look pretty running around the faire "naked".
Here is a picture of my rig..
Lord Murchadh
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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I don't think armor has anything to do with whether you are a knight or not. Its in the way that you carry yourself in everyday life. If you strive to live by the code then you are a knight in all aspects of the meaning of it. You knightly manner is your armor, the way that you live the code defines your character. Most attacks in the modern age are used with words so your defense is your code.
Exactly, exactly! Well spoken.
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But you are right it would not look pretty running around the faire "naked"
Speak for yourself! I have the body of a Russian God. ;D
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But you are right it would not look pretty running around the faire "naked"
Speak for yourself! I have the body of a Russian God. ;D
A bulldog named "Boris"??? ???
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Svarog!
I be 6' & 206lbs nowadays!
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You dropped those 19lbs like a bad habit- looks good on ya man.
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Looking good! We're just about the same weight (give or take 2 pounds) and height actually!
Though I think I'm lacking in the Tight Shirt Pics On Demand Department! ;)
TSPODD for short! We're right down the hall from the Ministry of Silly Walks!
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Looking good! We're just about the same weight (give or take 2 pounds) and height actually!
Though I think I'm lacking in the Tight Shirt Pics On Demand Department! ;)
TSPODD for short! We're right down the hall from the Ministry of Silly Walks!
Tee Spod? ;D
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I thought long and well about that very question many years ago. What makes a knight. One could argue that knightly behavior makes a knight, or title from a lord, perhaps even his wealth and armor. Imyself have my own formulated opinion.
A knight is someone who shines like a beacon, someone who stands for his beliefs and stands for others even when no one will stand with him. A knight strives to be temprent in judgement, yet is not afraid to hand down punishment for injustice. A knight needs no reason to do good, and makes a point to show kindness and understanding to those less fortunate then himself.
Knightly behavior, Charity, Honor, Hospitality, Courtesy, Integrity, these intangible virtues are paramount to knightly behavior. A knight needs to always be aware of his actions, how they reflect on himself and his peers and lord. I could continue but I believe my point is made. A knight is a combination of inborn ability and learned behavior.
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I thought long and well about that very question many years ago. What makes a knight. One could argue that knightly behavior makes a knight, or title from a lord, perhaps even his wealth and armor. Imyself have my own formulated opinion.
A knight is someone who shines like a beacon, someone who stands for his beliefs and stands for others even when no one will stand with him. A knight strives to be temprent in judgement, yet is not afraid to hand down punishment for injustice. A knight needs no reason to do good, and makes a point to show kindness and understanding to those less fortunate then himself.
Knightly behavior, Charity, Honor, Hospitality, Courtesy, Integrity, these intangible virtues are paramount to knightly behavior. A knight needs to always be aware of his actions, how they reflect on himself and his peers and lord. I could continue but I believe my point is made. A knight is a combination of inborn ability and learned behavior.
That is an excellent answer, Lord Tristin.
I've seen a wide range of answers to this sort of question over the years, and there are many descriptions, with a lot of overlap. Some people/groups put a different amount of emphasis on different aspects. For instance, the chivalry section on the AA has had discussions about which of the knightly virtues is the most important. Something that comes up a lot there is renown and prowess. While personally, I think in the modern day these aren't the most important, there is some good historical context for these.
In my mind, honor and integrity are paramount, and a willingness to do what is right, simply because it is right, even if no one is looking.
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Seconded. Well worded, Lord Tristin. :) You & I shall share much in the way of words on this forum I think.
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I've seen a wide range of answers to this sort of question over the years, and there are many descriptions, with a lot of overlap. Some people/groups put a different amount of emphasis on different aspects. For instance, the chivalry section on the AA has had discussions about which of the knightly virtues is the most important. Something that comes up a lot there is renown and prowess. While personally, I think in the modern day these aren't the most important, there is some good historical context for these.
In my mind, honor and integrity are paramount, and a willingness to do what is right, simply because it is right, even if no one is looking.
Agreed Sr Edward.
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I believe that the essence of a Knight comes from within; from their heart and spirit, and from without when they are recognized by others for their deeds.
In the world from which I hail there is a saying, penned by the Heathen author Eric Wodening, which says; "We are our deeds."
I will add to this by saying that my late grandfather used to remark: "A Warrior is a living balance: A mixture of strength, wisdom and proper humility."
I sincerely believe this as well.
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I thought long and well about that very question many years ago. What makes a knight. One could argue that knightly behavior makes a knight, or title from a lord, perhaps even his wealth and armor. Imyself have my own formulated opinion.
A knight is someone who shines like a beacon, someone who stands for his beliefs and stands for others even when no one will stand with him. A knight strives to be temprent in judgement, yet is not afraid to hand down punishment for injustice. A knight needs no reason to do good, and makes a point to show kindness and understanding to those less fortunate then himself.
Knightly behavior, Charity, Honor, Hospitality, Courtesy, Integrity, these intangible virtues are paramount to knightly behavior. A knight needs to always be aware of his actions, how they reflect on himself and his peers and lord. I could continue but I believe my point is made. A knight is a combination of inborn ability and learned behavior.
Well stated Lord Tristin. I had purposely refrained from commenting in this discussion for I had not been able to muster up the appropriate solitude and tranquility often needed to contemplate upon such an encompassing, sincere and introspective question, for it truly is a soul searching question. Thank you Lord Tristin for putting into words that which I consider sacred yet have not been able to aptly convey into words. Well done! :)
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Seconded, Sir Brian. Excellent words Lord Tristin. :)
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Thank you for your kind words Sir Brian. I strive to take my time when formulating my words. Occasionally I will speak out of turn but I strive to change that about myself.
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Thinking before speaking or acting is a fine discipline I think.
Well said, Tristin
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I have to agree with Lord Tristan.
I've met many "knights" who were anything BUT knightly. I think that is what drew me to this forum where I actually registered instead of just "creeping around" and gathering research for my own means. Here is a place where although, we all have differing opinions on what makes a "knight" at the same time, they are all very similar as well.
I can't help but also think of that scene in "Knight's Tale" and the whole movie in general. The language and music, even the costumes that you would think are accurate are not. Historically. But anthropologically speaking, resounding to the "human condition" as we like to call it, Yes, "Knight's Tale" is incredibly anthropologically correct.
Being a knight is not worn with a belt, even though it definitely adds to it
Being a knight is not a given when one has the most EPIC of kit, though it definitely adds to that person's presence.
I'm thinking of another movie now, a Marvel one, where the weakest of the group was in fact the strongest. To be knightly, isn't born, made, or trained. It's earned. The ability to lay down your life, to risk it all for the betterment of others, like those people in Boston, who were just "civilians" as Corvus put it, THEY are knightly.
Or, as a dear friend of mine said, before he passed from his injuries, "no regrets." Would my friend consider himself a hero? I doubt it. He was "just doing his job," in direct disregard of the tridents embedded in his coffin, the start of a sad tradition of my generation, the cigars and coins left at his grave, or the medal of honor hung at his neck. Going out of the way, and doing the extraordinary, "tilting when they should draw," THAT is knightly.
The rest of us? We're just continually striving, excelling, and struggling, along the path.
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I've met many "knights" who were anything BUT knightly. I think that is what drew me to this forum where I actually registered instead of just "creeping around" and gathering research for my own means. Here is a place where although, we all have differing opinions on what makes a "knight" at the same time, they are all very similar as well.
I can't help but also think of that scene in "Knight's Tale" and the whole movie in general. The language and music, even the costumes that you would think are accurate are not. Historically. But anthropologically speaking, resounding to the "human condition" as we like to call it, Yes, "Knight's Tale" is incredibly anthropologically correct.
Being a knight is not worn with a belt, even though it definitely adds to it
Being a knight is not a given when one has the most EPIC of kit, though it definitely adds to that person's presence.
I'm thinking of another movie now, a Marvel one, where the weakest of the group was in fact the strongest. To be knightly, isn't born, made, or trained. It's earned. The ability to lay down your life, to risk it all for the betterment of others, like those people in Boston, who were just "civilians" as Corvus put it, THEY are knightly.
Or, as a dear friend of mine said, before he passed from his injuries, "no regrets." Would my friend consider himself a hero? I doubt it. He was "just doing his job," in direct disregard of the tridents embedded in his coffin, the start of a sad tradition of my generation, the cigars and coins left at his grave, or the medal of honor hung at his neck. Going out of the way, and doing the extraordinary, "tilting when they should draw," THAT is knightly.
The rest of us? We're just continually striving, excelling, and struggling, along the path.
Hear! Hear! Hear! Well spoken B. Patricius!
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I have to agree with Lord Tristan.
I've met many "knights" who were anything BUT knightly. I think that is what drew me to this forum where I actually registered instead of just "creeping around" and gathering research for my own means. Here is a place where although, we all have differing opinions on what makes a "knight" at the same time, they are all very similar as well.
I can't help but also think of that scene in "Knight's Tale" and the whole movie in general. The language and music, even the costumes that you would think are accurate are not. Historically. But anthropologically speaking, resounding to the "human condition" as we like to call it, Yes, "Knight's Tale" is incredibly anthropologically correct.
Being a knight is not worn with a belt, even though it definitely adds to it
Being a knight is not a given when one has the most EPIC of kit, though it definitely adds to that person's presence.
I'm thinking of another movie now, a Marvel one, where the weakest of the group was in fact the strongest. To be knightly, isn't born, made, or trained. It's earned. The ability to lay down your life, to risk it all for the betterment of others, like those people in Boston, who were just "civilians" as Corvus put it, THEY are knightly.
Or, as a dear friend of mine said, before he passed from his injuries, "no regrets." Would my friend consider himself a hero? I doubt it. He was "just doing his job," in direct disregard of the tridents embedded in his coffin, the start of a sad tradition of my generation, the cigars and coins left at his grave, or the medal of honor hung at his neck. Going out of the way, and doing the extraordinary, "tilting when they should draw," THAT is knightly.
The rest of us? We're just continually striving, excelling, and struggling, along the path.
This is very inspiring, bro.
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Corvus, Joshua, thank you for your kind words. :) It's an honor to be here, and contribute where I can, when I can.
YIS
B. Patricius
PS
throughout my young life, 8 years old on, I was raised with Honor, Courage and Commitment.
Now, I'm "retired" and I'm still trying to get used to that.
So now, I have a new "Ethos" - ~Officium-Honestas-Sacrificium~ latin for (I hope, googled it so if it's wrong please tell me) Duty, Honor, Sacrifice
and my friend who said "no regrets"
here's a link to another thread where I posted more about him
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2435.0.html (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2435.0.html)
and if I'm being too sappy, I've been up for almost 48 hours. the half-pint needs a regular schedule, even if Meg (my lady) cannot because of a work FUBAR for this week. So yeah, taking care of both ATM. It's an excuse, and a poor one, but it's what I've got. :-[
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Being 'knightly' is like being 'noble'. It is not a title given but more a recognition of traits or action that make one so. We all know the traits of chivalry and good virtue that one seeks to be knightly. But which ones really define a person as knightly??
For me, that's easy...
Selflessness - giving everything of yourself including up to sacrificing one's life for a greater good in service to another or others
Faith - being virtuous and exemplifying pious behavior in a manner reflective of religious ideal that makes one a shining example to others in both word and action; having conviction in your beliefs that coincides in both your words and actions without being hypocritical or deceptive
Honor - upholding your virtues with fervent fortitude and nobility
Prudence - acting reasonably under circumstances that exhibit rational thought and sound judgment without engaging in senseless acts based upon lack of knowledge and emotion
Wisdom - expressing rational thought and sound judgment in making decisions that exercise fairness in all situations
But that's just my interpretation of what makes someone knightly in my eyes above other virtues. These ironically are the divine virtues of justice.
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Very well said, Lord Dane. And my prayers go out to your brother in arms in Mass. Happy hunting and stay frosty.
YIS
B. Patricius
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Hunting is over for me (least in this case). Back to bed. Give your condolences & prayers to M.I.T. Police who will be burying one of theirs next week. :( :'( Thoughts mean alot. Transit Police shot will survive and recover.
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Thanks for the update Lord Dane. And job well done.
and truly, my heart goes out to the MITPD. 26... always so young and promising
And I pray for a speedy recovery for the Transit officer. Black on the shields, but at least it was a job completed this time. Bravo zulu.
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I personally don't believe that armor defines a knight. The prestigious title of Knight should be given to someone who has shown that they are both chivalrous and honorable. While donning a suit of armor is indeed indicative of a time when knights were prominent, it did not define them. Their deeds, courage, honor, and selfless service did. These are just my thoughts on knighthood though.
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Armored or not, what makes a knight? Well I personally don't believe that it is the armor as I don't believe that the clothes make the man. A man should be judged by his actions and how he carries himself. My faith in God and wanting to help my fellow man make this world of ours a better place to live in is what makes me a knight. I have a strong sense of duty, honor and morals that I thank God that my parents instilled in me. I have been married to the greatest woman in the world for over 20 years now and that in itself is something you do not see much of in this world anymore. Do I deserve to be called a knight? I will let God and you my peers decide that.