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Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2014-01-31, 14:57:15
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An interesting, if not controversial subject in the HEMA community. There is a theory that too much protective gear harms the martial art, because people ramp up their power, while not being defensive enough to avoid being struck. The idea is that this can paradoxically create more injuries, and more double-hits.
Thoughts? Agree? Disagree?
Towards a new approach in HEMA-tournaments: Let’s fence naked!
http://www.hroarr.com/towards-a-new-approach-in-hema-tournaments-lets-fence-naked/ (http://www.hroarr.com/towards-a-new-approach-in-hema-tournaments-lets-fence-naked/)
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Or speedos
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I shower naked, that's enough nudity for me. :)
It somewhat reminds me of the saying "beware of old people with dangerous jobs". The young ones don't have the experience, and the ones who live through all of the danger are to be respected (and sometimes feared). It really is a completely different game when you can say "hand" and acknowledge you got hit on the hand and go right back to another round, versus saying "@(#*$@#$!" as you grip your hand in agony because that steel trainer just broke 8 bones because you had no hand protection at all.
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It is an interesting premise and I have some doubts about protective clothing/armor of some kind not being worn back then. Even though the illustrations and artwork in various codices or reproductions have not displayed any sort of protective equipment I cannot believe that they didn't take some safety precautions given the lack of modern medicinal practices when a simple scratch or cut could easily turn septic and become fatal.
I fully agree that most blossfechten techniques are certainly compromised due to the wearing of bulky protective gear but the fühlen (feel) of combat and the engagement cannot be truly realized by just doing drills or half-tempo duels. For refinement of technique I certainly do not wear the steel gauntlets or the lacrosse gloves but after I feel comfortable with a technique I will practice it with the gauntlets to learn the subtle differences. :-\
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I think some of the general problem with the HEMA community is that they're constantly trying to reinvent the wheel and seem to be independently discovering martial arts apart from already established martial arts.
A while ago it was making the rounds that the power of a sword swing comes from weight-transfer in the hips... you don't say? This has been a known fact forever in every other martial art that power generation comes from body weight transfer, not your arm... But it seemed to be touted as a revelation for the HEMA community in some circles.
Protective gear is just another symptom. Look at every other competitive martial art. They all wear minimal protective gear, and the ability to get hurt is always present and part of the sport. Boxers and MMA practioners come to mind. If you can't get hurt, you will never learn to defend yourself. Now, of course a newcomer should wear more gear as they learn control etc, as they do in other martial arts, but at the top tier, competitions generally occur with minimal gear so as not to get in the way of technique.
The thing with gear that sets HEMA apart is a steel sword can do a lot of damage, (but so can a fist or knee on the right person), but let's just assume that the sword in general has a greater potential for damage. If we accept that as true, then it would follow that perhaps some more protective gear would be required to prevent grievous injury. It's a hard question... but I firmly believe that at the top tier of any competitive martial art, technique reigns supreme and protective gear will always hinder at that level of play. I think that's obvious to other martial arts, but again, it's only now making headway in the HEMA community.
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My 2 cents~
Related to what Ian said: I'm doing just such a thing in the SCA. The better I do, the less gear I wear, I wear way less kit than I did 10 years ago. At the top of my game I rarely get hit in the arms or legs at all and could probably go minimum there without serious consequence. For years Duke Jade of Starfall, 16 time King of the West, wore SCA minimums to fight hard hitting folks cause he just never got hurt bad. Now that he's older those armour bits are coming back (and some of those decisions about no armour are haunting him).
However I have to go to work Monday as a Software Tester. I need my hands.
Why can't folks just do what we did in TKD for years with putting on as much protection as the power level called for? Slow work/no contact= Minimal. Full Contact & power= maximum.
You may look at an UFC fight and note that all they have is cup (sometimes), mouth guard, & gloves but what they don't show is all the gear they use for training & that the minimums are used in specific instances for specific reasons and not as an all the time thing.
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I get the sentiment, but as a guy who plays with swords and MMA, I'd far rather take a knee to the body than a full-force sword strike, even with a steel blunt. Hell, any fool who can oberhau is theoretically capable of killing you in a HEMA bout. Remember in a HEMA bout one solid blow almost always decides the bout, while countless blows are exchanged in a MMA match.
I think minimalist gear will mean something different for HEMA than MMA or SCA.
Perhaps light (very hard plastic?) gauntlets, a jack-chain type defense on the arms, a torso protector, gorget, cup, and fencing mask/secret helm mix?
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I get the sentiment, but as a guy who plays with swords and MMA, I'd far rather take a knee to the body than a full-force sword strike, even with a steel blunt. Hell, any fool who can oberhau is theoretically capable of killing you in a HEMA bout. Remember in a HEMA bout one solid blow almost always decides the bout, while countless blows are exchanged in a MMA match.
This ignores the statement that minimal gear would be reserved for people of higher and superior skill levels. Newbies, who can't control their power in any martial art of course wear the most gear. The best people in all martial arts (except HEMA) wear the least. And a knee to the skull can surely kill you just the same as a blunt sword, and that's a perfectly legal target in MMA. But only experienced practitioners should be playing at that level.
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But full-force knees to the skull are rather rare in MMA. The vast majority of blows are decidedly without killing potential, excepting in rare anomalies. The most common MMA hits are probably leg kicks and punches to the body/head. (This is ignoring grappling clench submission game, which has no parallel in longsword HEMA as practiced today) These are rarely going to seriously injure a professional fighter. The most common HEMA hits are hand/arm/shoulder cuts. Without some type of protective gear, a full force cut has a decent chance to disable the wrist, for a long time.
While I think less/lighter/less restrictive gear will always be better, I don't think HEMA can safely be done at full force without some type of protective gear.
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But full-force knees to the skull are rather rare in MMA. The vast majority of blows are decidedly without killing potential, excepting in rare anomalies. The most common MMA hits are probably leg kicks and punches to the body/head. (This is ignoring grappling clench submission game, which has no parallel in longsword HEMA as practiced today) These are rarely going to seriously injure a professional fighter. The most common HEMA hits are hand/arm/shoulder cuts. Without some type of protective gear, a full force cut has a decent chance to disable the wrist, for a long time.
While I think less/lighter/less restrictive gear will always be better, I don't think HEMA can safely be done at full force without some type of protective gear.
All very true Nathan. But is it necessary for HEMA to be practiced at full force? I agree that the killing or serious injury potential is higher in HEMA, but this is predicated on the assumption that at the top tiers of HEMA it need be practiced with that level of force. I don't know if it needs to be or not. If people are good enough, then I think technique can be valuable absent full force, but I'm not nearly experienced enough to make that judgement.
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But full-force knees to the skull are rather rare in MMA. The vast majority of blows are decidedly without killing potential, excepting in rare anomalies. The most common MMA hits are probably leg kicks and punches to the body/head. (This is ignoring grappling clench submission game, which has no parallel in longsword HEMA as practiced today) These are rarely going to seriously injure a professional fighter. The most common HEMA hits are hand/arm/shoulder cuts. Without some type of protective gear, a full force cut has a decent chance to disable the wrist, for a long time.
While I think less/lighter/less restrictive gear will always be better, I don't think HEMA can safely be done at full force without some type of protective gear.
All very true Nathan. But is it necessary for HEMA to be practiced at full force? I agree that the killing or serious injury potential is higher in HEMA, but this is predicated on the assumption that at the top tiers of HEMA it need be practiced with that level of force. I don't know if it needs to be or not. If people are good enough, then I think technique can be valuable absent full force, but I'm not nearly experienced enough to make that judgement.
The subtle distinction with that question Sir Ian is the tendency for the exchanges to ratchet up in speed (and thus power) as it continues. Most especially if it is two highly skilled and intense combatants. Neither means for the tempo to increase but as the duel continues with each defending skillfully it will basically come down to one setting up a complex combination for a quick conclusion or quickly exploiting a minor mistake of the other. True masters are capable of maintaining the required constant state of control and not be 'caught up' in the excitement of battle and I can assure you that I will never attain that level! ;)
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I think that speed will be a defining part of any HEMA duel, and I don't see how a top-tier bout could recognize a fighter's great speed without the power. Sure, there will be some pulling, but the blows will be at full speed, hopefully, and thus a high amount of power will almost certainly present.
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I witnessed some very fine, disciplined and skilled fighters this past weekend at the ShortPoint event hosted by Maryland KDF and some of the fights were clearly getting a bit out of hand. Mainly due to a couple of fighters but they dueled some of the top HEMA practitioners who naturally ratcheted up their speed and power in response, even so that some of the exchanges were downright scary! Still after all is said and done, it was technique that won out of brawn and raw aggression every time.
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Speaking of which, here's a video of some very skilled practioners binding (slowly!) with sharp swords in I.33 style, and no protective gear to speak of:
Berlin dec 2013 sharps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zUQ6GjtGDY#ws)
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<snip>Still after all is said and done, it was technique that won out of brawn and raw aggression every time.
That's the nice thing about wearing armour. Your technique can include Brawn & Raw Aggression as a strategy to win. :)