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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Aiden of Oreland on 2013-11-20, 20:48:12
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I have made a surcoat. But that was out of scratch and I didn't follow any guide lines. I just, well, made it. I suppose many of you have crafted their own surcoats and tunics. How do I make one? A surcoat? What kind of stitching, how wide should I make it? How long? What parts of my body do I measure? Pretty much a step by step instructions. I tried searching and looking it up but I could never find anything on the matter. Could you help me? Oh and how to make like a flag or pennant would be cool too. Ones that could be displayed out side or at a SCA event.
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There's a .pdf file here (http://cottesimple.com/tutorials/early-14thc-surcotte/) that might help you out. I haven't tried the instructions yet (though I plan to...eventually), but they seem pretty thorough.
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There's a .pdf file here (http://cottesimple.com/tutorials/early-14thc-surcotte/) that might help you out. I haven't tried the instructions yet (though I plan to...eventually), but they seem pretty thorough.
Yes, you can't beat anything Tasha Kelly (the person behind La Cotte Simple) puts out. She's the person who developed the pattern for my arming doublet as well. She does some of the best medieval garment reproduction there is.
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Wow! This is actually amazing. Plus Im a visual learner so this is just perfect! Im also excited because I am slowely about to come up with a heraldic design. A green secondary on a white/silver surface. A ranpant stag holding a shield under his fore arms. Maybe place beach leaves in there. Though, my surcoat is likely to be a quartered design with a head of an elk/stag/buck on one sqaure and two chevrons on the other. But the question is, what should the background behind the stag head be? And what should the background and chevrons be?
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Have you decided then upon a specific period for your harness? – I ask because whichever period you have chosen would also help determine the style of surcoat you are making. Surcoats were of the long variety up until the early 14th century when the front part became shorter, around mid-thigh and the back remained long although not as long has the previous centuries. By the battle of Crecy both the front and back were shorter and eventually were the length as Sir Ian’s.
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14th-15th century but for now im going to hold back making making one. For I am not fully grown. Plus I may have a change of heart. Plus it will be german.
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14th-15th century but for now im going to hold back making making one. For I am not fully grown. Plus I may have a change of heart. Plus it will be german.
By the 15th century surcoats pretty much go out of style. They change drastically over the course of the 14th century, so if you can narrow down to a decade or two, that would determine the type of surcoat you would wear.
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14th-15th century but for now im going to hold back making making one. For I am not fully grown. Plus I may have a change of heart. Plus it will be german.
By the 15th century surcoats pretty much go out of style. They change drastically over the course of the 14th century, so if you can narrow down to a decade or two, that would determine the type of surcoat you would wear.
Could you show me examples of 14th century German surcoats?
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Don't think of centuries as culturally isolated from one another. It's just a convenient way to tell time, nothing more. So the 14th century is not a cohesive unit of time that has cultural similarity within itself, and thus distinguishes itself from the 13th or 15th centuries. Rather, cultural changes happen on their own time, and often happen over the span of decades, not centuries. That was a really long way for me to say that styles change rapidly within one century and are not the same or even similar throughout :)
Anyways... for the beginning of the 14th century you're looking at a long ankle-length surcoat like this:
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/1030-6_gallery.jpg)
In general, during the middle of the century, you're looking at the surcoat getting shorter (just above knee length) like these:
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/albrecht_von_hohenlohe_s2_r91_medium.jpg)
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/marschalls_von_waldeck_s158_r4147_medium.jpg)
By the later parts of the 14th century, the Germans, much like the French and English have gone to the Jupon, which is still a 'surcoat' but it's very tightly fitted and very short (ignore the cape he has on):
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/weikhard_frosch_s382_r5872_medium.jpg)
The 'Cyclas' style surcoat, or the short in the front, long in the back style doesn't really seem to be a thing in Germany, but it was definitely big in England during the 1340's.
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/william_crathorne_s58_r970_medium.jpg)
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Don't think of centuries as culturally isolated from one another. It's just a convenient way to tell time, nothing more. So the 14th century is not a cohesive unit of time that has cultural similarity within itself, and thus distinguishes itself from the 13th or 15th centuries. Rather, cultural changes happen on their own time, and often happen over the span of decades, not centuries. That was a really long way for me to say that styles change rapidly within one century and are not the same or even similar throughout :)
Agreed. It's a natural human quirk to want to "compress" time the farther back you go; it's hard to fully grasp how long a century really is, and how much change can take place in that amount of time.
When I start losing track or getting confused, I like to think of our own recent history: the 20th century. To say that blue jeans and t-shirts was the fashion for the entire 20th century would be silly, especially to anyone who was around in the 1940s and 1950s. Compare an American World War I soldier to an American Vietnam soldier to an American Gulf War soldier. It's still all 20th century, but they all have their differences and similarities. It just helps put things in perspective a little bit. :)
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How about 13th century examples? Also while on the subject, could you give me some example of "soft" clothing styles? So I can have more than just armor but also middle-upper class clothing.
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Excellent example, Douglass! Even the differences in a WW1 kit and a WW2 it are huge and they aren't that far apart time-wise. Makes me rethink trying to stretch my kit's time frame.
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How about 13th century examples? Also while on the subject, could you give me some example of "soft" clothing styles? So I can have more than just armor but also middle-upper class clothing.
ok thats a start :)
now, where? england? italy? german area? etc?
early or late 13th c?
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How about 13th century examples? Also while on the subject, could you give me some example of "soft" clothing styles? So I can have more than just armor but also middle-upper class clothing.
ok thats a start :)
now, where? england? italy? german area? etc?
early or late 13th c?
Germany, and I'm sorry if I keep asking it by century, I am asking for a timline almost. So I can see all my options in that century.
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Try doing some of the research for yourself, it can be very rewarding. Go to a site like http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/). Click on the search tab and enter the years you're interested in, then select 'Germany' and try to look at the trends you notice in the results. You can also look at the site http://manuscriptminiatures.com/ (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/) and run the same search to see period artwork.
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Try doing some of the research for yourself, it can be very rewarding.
QFT and it really is half the fun! ;)
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Also, if you're looking at 13th century, I would highly recommend looking through the Maciejowski Bible (sometimes called the Morgan Bible). It has excellent examples of both martial and civil gear from about the mid-century.
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_bible.htm (http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_bible.htm)
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oh yes it is!
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I do like the waist high from the 14th century. But I may just make the shin length surcoat too. Why not have both :) . I may have to buy a Klapvisor bascinet and a Great helm. Maybe make helmet decor, I'll have to look into how to make the the waist one. Hey by the way, thanks for giving me so much help and putting up with me. I know I have a tendency to ask a lot of stuff on the forum. But know I do look a little into it first and that I'm not justing shooting things out of my mind lol. I'll cut back a bit though. Try and ask things that are more "valuable" if ya catch my meaning lads. Anyway, Do you think that awesome link you guys sent me earlier for the surcotte has one for the waist length tunic?
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Why not have both :)
Yes. This is the correct answer to all of your decision questions from this point forward. ;)
If you're talking about the La Cotte Simple pattern, the hemline length is to taste. There's no set measurement on it, so you can make it as long or as short as you want it.
I don't know how much sewing experience you have, but if you are unsure about making it, I personally would recommend making a mockup out of a cheap fabric like muslin before cutting up your more expensive material. Then you can see if you need to add/remove material, or modify the pattern. You can always cut away excess material if you have too much, but it's a bit more difficult to add material if you don't have enough.
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Why not have both :)
Yes. This is the correct answer to all of your decision questions from this point forward. ;)
If you're talking about the La Cotte Simple pattern, the hemline length is to taste. There's no set measurement on it, so you can make it as long or as short as you want it.
I don't know how much sewing experience you have, but if you are unsure about making it, I personally would recommend making a mockup out of a cheap fabric like muslin before cutting up your more expensive material. Then you can see if you need to add/remove material, or modify the pattern. You can always cut away excess material if you have too much, but it's a bit more difficult to add material if you don't have enough.
Ya, The one you see me wearing in this pic is one I made out of scratch. No instructions. Just kinda was like "Im going to make a surcoat before I go to MD Renfair" I made it so it jad 2 different kind of cloths. I ruffer tuffer one on the out side and a soft one on the inside. I did this so the soft one would be easier on the maille. Came out pretty good. Ignore the belt hight.
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Why not have both :)
Yes. This is the correct answer to all of your decision questions from this point forward. ;)
Agreed wholeheartedly! :D
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Be careful Aiden or Sir James will have you buying 'the national debt'. :) LOL
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Be careful Aiden or Sir James will have you buying 'the national debt'. :) LOL
It's an antique! And priceless! Plus, the value of the debt keeps going up. It's a solid investment, nothing else on the market like it. Literally the only one of it's kind!
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Be careful Aiden or Sir James will have you buying 'the national debt'. :) LOL
It's an antique! And priceless! Plus, the value of the debt keeps going up. It's a solid investment, nothing else on the market like it. Literally the only one of it's kind!
Again, why not buy that too! The more the merrier!
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Be careful Aiden or Sir James will have you buying 'the national debt'. :) LOL
It's an antique! And priceless! Plus, the value of the debt keeps going up. It's a solid investment, nothing else on the market like it. Literally the only one of it's kind!
/wrists
sad truth...
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This may be off the subject a bit, but I noticed that some of the pictures presented show a man wearing a Klappvisier holding a Great Helm. I know they wore the caps with Aventails, but did they also wear Klappvisier under great helms? I tried looking it up but nothing really on the subject.
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Not that I recall. If you have an image in mind, I'd love to see it. Some of the early bascinets were worn under great helms, but these didn't need visors, because of the great helm.
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Not that I recall. If you have an image in mind, I'd love to see it. Some of the early bascinets were worn under great helms, but these didn't need visors, because of the great helm.
These and some others I have seen. On Wikipedia it said they wore klappvisier(klappvisor) under great helms.
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During most of the time that the great helm was worn over a bascinet, it was typically of the visorless variety. I suppose you could put a great helm on over a visored bascinet, but chances are you'd remove the visor to wear both helms. Klappvisor just refers to the way the visor was attached (in this case a single hinge above the center of the visor on the skull's forehead). You can have a flat shovel-face visor like you've linked or a houndskull visor on a klappvisor attachment.
All that really matters if you want to wear a great helm over the bascinet is the shape of the bascinet's skull so that the great helm will fit since the visor would be removed anyway.
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Good luck with the bascinet visor fitting under a Great helm. Not meant to go together.
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That's certainly interesting with those helmets. I had only seen the visorless as well.
I think Sir Ian is correct. A klappvisor's visor is easily removed, and would probably need to happen to fit the helmet over the head. I can't see it possibly fitting anywhere near correctly with the visor on too - not to mention it also doubles the vision restrictions, looking through visor slots inside of visor slots.
Careful with Wikipedia as a source. It's not always reliable, and is sometimes just regurgitated from another site, which may be incorrect. If they cited that, check the original source if you can.
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Ya, I kind of only use wikipedia as a "guideline" if ya catch my meaning. To kinda get me in the right direction. But, a problem I am now facing is actually finding a bascinet (not klappvisor) w/ aventail. The only place that I can find one is therionarms but even then, it is discontinued. I mean if I have to I'll ask Clang's armory or royal oak armory for a costum made one to fit under a helmet of my choosing.
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Ya, I kind of only use wikipedia as a "guideline" if ya catch my meaning. To kinda get me in the right direction. But, a problem I am now facing is actually finding a bascinet (not klappvisor) w/ aventail. The only place that I can find one is therionarms but even then, it is discontinued. I mean if I have to I'll ask Clang's armory or royal oak armory for a costum made one to fit under a helmet of my choosing.
Hurry up. They are discontinued. I got one. They still have a couple. Historically accurate look.
Aventail is black butted ring maille with brass trim but can be changed out easy enough.
http://www.theknightshop.co.uk/catalog/bascinet-with-aventail-gauge-p-967.html?osCsid=f75d843c4a278cd55c1a367b4e24d7bc (http://www.theknightshop.co.uk/catalog/bascinet-with-aventail-gauge-p-967.html?osCsid=f75d843c4a278cd55c1a367b4e24d7bc)
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Ya, I kind of only use wikipedia as a "guideline" if ya catch my meaning. To kinda get me in the right direction. But, a problem I am now facing is actually finding a bascinet (not klappvisor) w/ aventail. The only place that I can find one is therionarms but even then, it is discontinued. I mean if I have to I'll ask Clang's armory or royal oak armory for a costum made one to fit under a helmet of my choosing.
Hurry up. They are discontinued. I got one. They still have a couple. Historically accurate look.
Aventail is black butted ring maille with brass trim but can be changed out easy enough.
http://www.theknightshop.co.uk/catalog/bascinet-with-aventail-gauge-p-967.html?osCsid=f75d843c4a278cd55c1a367b4e24d7bc (http://www.theknightshop.co.uk/catalog/bascinet-with-aventail-gauge-p-967.html?osCsid=f75d843c4a278cd55c1a367b4e24d7bc)
By Jov! I cannot get it this moment :( but maybe you can get it for me for chrismas lol. How much is it in $ not £ do you think I could possibly get it in the next month? I mean if they say discontinued then none other will purchase it right?
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Oh never mind, its $294.9704. Thats not too bad. Gonna need to work hard lol. Thanks man, I was starting to get angery that I couldn't find any bascinets.