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Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: B. Patricius on 2013-07-03, 23:24:40
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Greetings all,
I'm a member of the Adrian Empire, and as I'm now officially part of the group the heralds are knocking on my door so to speak waiting for my device. Luckily, within the Adrian Empire they live by the KISS method and require it to be simple in it's layout. My device is a badger, because well, if there was ever an animal that emulated me, especially when I haven't had my cup of joe yet, it's the badger. Also, what's really cool is that we have a good population of badgers in our area and I actually just saw one on ol Rte 66/Az95 while my lady and I were discussing it. It was my first glimpse at a badger in the wild, and yes, he was contemplating picking a fight with her van! 8)
So, I basically have the device set up. It's just the finer details I'm having a bit of a problem with. I've attached the two different ideas for you all to see, and I'm even thinking of adding another where the badger is true proper, in brown, because they thought that would look cool with my quartered background.
Basically, I can't decide on yellow and red quartered, or white and red quartered. The brown badger would probably blend in with the yellow so that badger will stay black and white, but the red and white one, the brown badger would definitely pop. I'm just trying to decide how "Templar" looking I really want my device to be, since this is really for my secular kit rather than one for a Holy Order. Either that, or it's just me seeing it, and if that's the case, I'd appreciate that criticism as well.
Let me know what you guys think, I'd really appreciate the input!
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How interested are you in making a historically correct Coat of Arms, and how much background information do you have on historical heraldry? Are you familiar with things like metals vs colors and what can be on what and all that jazz? If you are interested in going historical, let us know because that will greatly affect guidance.
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Coat of Arms (CoA) depends greatly upon what you wish to say about yourself, hertiage, kit, persona... Like Ian stated, it will be based predominantly upon how historical & accurate you wish it to be. We can all help in this area if you want options. I just recently re-did my heraldry to suit my Order kit that I will use here with the group. However, I have CoA for my SCA Order & my own personal heraldry based upon my real life name. It's all in what you wish to portray.
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I want it to be fairly historically accurate for sure. Just like everything else in my kit. According to the rules both of those would pass. I know enough about the basic rules, like no color on color and metal on metal. Hence why the rampant badger is in the center, so he's less than 50% on it. At least for Adria, it's good. Feel free to critique it. The major elements that will stay are the badger and the colors. The rest can change.
Thanks for the help!
B. Patricius
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Either color set is completely legit. Red and white have been used by many, many more people than just the templars, and unless it's a white field with a red cross (which by the way is a symbol of England and Genoa, as well as the templars), I don't think you have to worry too much about it.I like how clean the red and white looks personally, and it would allow you to do more of the brown/grey of a badger proper if you decided to go that way. I personally like the black badger.
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Yep, either combination will work just fine.
If the heraldic rules matter to you, both are legit. In the field division, you can have pretty much any color combination you want, since the colors are "next to" each other, so you don't even have to use a "metal" (white or yellow) there if you want. Except, that if the charge is a "color" (which black is), then there needs to be a "metal" behind it.
I like the look of both.
Of course, people tend to gravitate toward quartering like that since we tend to think of that as a very standard medieval thing to do. But historically, it tended to signify "marshalling", which is a combining of arms when families are joined by marriage, though you're using a single charge in front of it instead of inside the quadrants. That's perfectly legit.
But these days so many reenactors want to do it, that they overlook the wide range of other types of divisions that can be done, as well as the "ordinaries" that can be placed on top (such as a chief, or bend, etc).
For a lot of the terminology, and options available, one of the SCA pages has a really great primer on heraldry concepts:
http://heraldry.sca.org/armory/primer/ (http://heraldry.sca.org/armory/primer/)
I think it's really useful as well to look at Rolls of Arms (both historical, and the ones from other groups such as The Order of Selohaar (http://www.selohaar.org/rollofarms.htm), and some of the SCA heralds pages).
Anyway, that's all just in case you're using this as a starting point. If you're just picking between colors at this stage, well, that's entirely up to you, and I think both look great. :)
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badger badger badger badger.........
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badger badger badger badger.........
Knights of Ni!?!? what about Knights of BADGER!?!
(http://media-cache-ak1.pinimg.com/550x/cb/2a/ff/cb2aff8ee6fc04cc5aa1ec8c03e504ad.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/550x/f0/59/ad/f059ad30cae658f4c48c7eff5d92ac7a.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/550x/fe/f0/03/fef003bc3b7e6a35bda2cf0dfff90351.jpg)
Sir Wolf, EPIC new avatar btw B)
cool, thanks everybody!
I have a member of the "herald's circle" within the SCA that's a good friend of mine, he looked it over and said it was legit for SCA even because there are so few badgers lol and it definitely passed the rules.
As for the color combinations... well I guess y'all ain't a help at all!! :D you like em both too?! :o I was hoping you'd make it easy for me ;D
as for the red and white, here's why:
(http://www.torpedobilly.co.nz/images/murphy-coat-of-arms-shield-large.jpg) I now know that has nothing to do with me personally, but Lord help ya if you tell my family that! It went into my psyche all the same. The same with my alma mater, Mater Dei High School:
(http://www.mattconstruction.com/images/projects/_medium/Mater_Dei_High_School_Santa_Ana_CA_Athletics_Facilities_(8).jpg) so in that, it's ingrained practically, but at the same time, it now seems a bit overdone too. I either honor that past, or I start a new chapter. I also already have some beautiful red damask lying around from a red tag remnant, I got it cheap, doesn't mean I can't change it.
I'm debating doing something else with the field, but I love the single badger as the device, if I'm even using the right terms. Reading heraldry is the worst for me lol. To be honest, I'm not much of a team player anymore, and that's one of the reasons for the nickname. That and the one here tried to pick a fight with my lady's van! :D
I'm hoping I can at least come up with a thread half of Lord Dane's. I went through his again, after he talked to me about his. I really agree this is something important. I approach all this much like quite a few of you others. I'll have a "templar kit" for sure, but my device for "my Lady's kit" as I like to call it, so I can swoon her, this is the most important start.
on that note, as much as I love the quartered design (particularly for garb and such), in the Adrian Empire, I'm the first badger. I can literally do what I wish. So in that, what are your opinions on making it even simpler? Halved or even just a solid metal background? I do realize that in the beginning it was quite simple. But I'm trying to dance a fine line between archaeologically correct, anthropologically correct, and romanticized fiction :D
my goal, is to have the surcoat be worthy of DoK, it'll be handstitched with linen thread. That to me, is the most important. I want to be able to stand next to you guys.
YIS
B. Patricius
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If you like the red and white, go for the red and white.
DoK even has machine sewn things, however, they should be hidden (such as the Revival Clothing / Historic Enterprises clothing)
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Hand-sewn stuff is great, but unless you're doing some hardcore living-history, most people won't notice the difference.
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Brother Patricius,
You have the right idea about keeping it simple....you have metal on color with overall charge very period looking and easy to replicate which is what you want...I like it and if you want to see mine just let me know...mine are actually registered heraldry with the college of heralds...so if you have any questions just let me know..
Lord Murchadh
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Thanks for all the help guys :D
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Oh yes, simple is good for one main reason-- whatever you decide on, you'll have to paint it on something eventually. :)
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Or someone else will. :)
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Patricius, forgot to put my heraldry and interpretation on here earlier. Copied from my site: http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/historical/my-heraldry/index/ (http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/historical/my-heraldry/index/)
My personal heraldry is similar to the Anderson of Erbury historical one; both contain 3 charges, and both are chevron. However, the charges and field are inverted in color.
The BLACK FIELD is symbolic of the evil/darkness of the world.
The WHITE is in homage to the white that a Knight would wear during his vigil before his knighting. It is also a symbol of purity, and to stand in contrast to the darkness.
The CHEVRON division is a symbol of a wall of protection against those who would do harm to it's occupants.
The LIONS are symbolic of the way a lion pride relies upon each other to survive; the same way that a family needs each other to survive and prosper. My zodiac symbol is also the lion (Leo).
The TOP LIONS, specifically, are symbolic of parents; something I hope to be a half of some day. It also symbolizes that one person cannot accomplish everything on their own; they need a partner.
The LOWER LION, specifically, is symbolic of all family / children / loved ones. They are protected by the wall, as well as their guardians (the top lions).
(http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/content/historical/my-heraldry/index/images/gonfalon.jpg)
And as you posted historical heraldry with your same last name (regardless of family heritage or not), I did something similar with mine. See "Anderson of Erbury" http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/historical/clan-heraldry/index/ (http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/historical/clan-heraldry/index/)
Nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from a historical coat of arms, whether it's in your family tree, or just happens to have the same last name, or another name entirely. The great thing is, there's no "family" coat of arms, so there's no right or wrong of it that way.
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Brother Patricius,
Just a thought, ...
Try putting the red field above the white field (halved not quartered).
In the red field above, place your black honey badger in a forward facing position not rampant.
In the white field below, place a red maltese Templar cross centered.
The red field above is symbolic of your true self (if the honey badger is significant in this fashion).
The white field below represents your faith, beliefs, values, ideals, etc or other self.
Both are different in context but an integral part of the other as seen in the whole.
One cannot separate one from the other but only makes them fit together to be reflective of you.
Keep the color scheme as it works well together with the charges.
If this seems appropriate based on what you are seeking, you found your heraldry.
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That is an intriguing variance Lord Dane and something for you to consider Patricius.
If it is any help, my COA is actually marshaled along with my wife’s which I developed simultaneously with mine. Her primary metal and color is Silver and Black respectively and the Rose charge is synonymous with her given name. The Silver represents the purity of her beautiful soul and loving heart, the Black represents her faithfulness in our love and marriage. As I hold her high above me, her COA is chief on my COA. The wavy line of division represents the sea which I traveled upon so that by providence we first met. The field of Green is my hope and joy of rebirth due to my Christian faith and the Gold Griffin for me represents my pursuit of better understanding and respect of my Lord and yet to have perseverance to be ever vigilant and death-defying in protecting those that I love.
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Sir Brian, I don't believe I've ever heard the description of your coat of arms. That's very eloquent!
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Very touching Sir Brian. Nice sentiments put into your heraldry that reflect yourself sincerely.
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Sir Brian, I don't believe I've ever heard the description of your coat of arms. That's very eloquent!
Very touching Sir Brian. Nice sentiments put into your heraldry that reflect yourself sincerely.
Thank you gentlemen! :)
I thought I had described the significance of my COA in my original post a couple years ago but after finding and reviewing it I had not. Well there it is then! ;)
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Although I'm late to the party, I'm partial to the quartering of red and white myself. I prefer the white over the yellow, all day long.
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Sir Brian, I don't believe I've ever heard the description of your coat of arms. That's very eloquent!
Very touching Sir Brian. Nice sentiments put into your heraldry that reflect yourself sincerely.
Thank you gentlemen! :)
I thought I had described the significance of my COA in my original post a couple years ago but after finding and reviewing it I had not. Well there it is then! ;)
We had talked offline a few years ago and I knew the griffin and rose was yours and your wife's, respectively, but I didn't know about the wavy division or the colors.
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hey, thats cool.
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BAN BAN BAN!!! Oh wait ... that's Sir Wolf's line. :P
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Sir Brian, I don't believe I've ever heard the description of your coat of arms. That's very eloquent!
Very touching Sir Brian. Nice sentiments put into your heraldry that reflect yourself sincerely.
Thank you gentlemen! :)
I thought I had described the significance of my COA in my original post a couple years ago but after finding and reviewing it I had not. Well there it is then! ;)
Yes, its new to me too, but knowing you, not surprising. I think we share a similar outlook on the elevation of our wives as the Ladies they are.
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Sir Brian,
let me start off by saying your description of your heraldry is most eloquent, beautiful and very touching. Just like I wish mine to be. It's awesome. And in that:
Brother Patricius,
Just a thought, ...
Try putting the red field above the white field (halved not quartered).
In the red field above, place your black honey badger in a forward facing position not rampant.
In the white field below, place a red maltese Templar cross centered.
The red field above is symbolic of your true self (if the honey badger is significant in this fashion).
The white field below represents your faith, beliefs, values, ideals, etc or other self.
Both are different in context but an integral part of the other as seen in the whole.
One cannot separate one from the other but only makes them fit together to be reflective of you.
Keep the color scheme as it works well together with the charges.
If this seems appropriate based on what you are seeking, you found your heraldry.
I'm going to try this. I like how it has my badger up top, the shield halved like the Beausant of the Templars, something I was thinking about myself to begin with, where the blackness describes their past and the white describes who they wanted to be. Very touching Lord Dane. For you all to have never met me in person, I truly feel like we are brothers and sisters in arms.
Now to find an angry heraldic badger facing forward 8) reminds me of the little guy trying to take on my lady's van.
everyone else, thank you so much for your input as well. I wish to have my lady on that pedestal as well, but her being a single Mom, if only for 13 months, definitely made her a stubborn one :D
oh well, guess I need to show her more pictures of y'all in armor, kissing your lady's hands. She loved those pictures of Sir Brian and Joe Metz