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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Nate on 2015-02-18, 23:18:17

Title: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir Nate on 2015-02-18, 23:18:17
I was looking at arms and armor site, and noticed that they have a longsword labeled as 12th century and say there are findings of that style as early as 1100. I thought the first two handed swords weren't until the 13th century? Thoughts? Are there any findings to support this....? I am a bit confused.
http://armor.com/sword089.html (http://armor.com/sword089.html)
(http://armor.com/images/sword089a_s.jpg)
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2015-02-19, 02:23:42
It is a sword that can be used in two hands or one like Albions 'The Duke', but probably meant for a modified pommel style of gripping when used in two hands, especially with that length of grip.

This kind of sword started appearing at the same time maille started covering ones opponents more & more.
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir Nate on 2015-02-19, 22:51:33
It is a sword that can be used in two hands or one like Albions 'The Duke', but probably meant for a modified pommel style of gripping when used in two hands, especially with that length of grip.

This kind of sword started appearing at the same time maille started covering ones opponents more & more.
I'm not sure they had swords with grips this long. At least not until the latter of the 13th century
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir James A on 2015-02-19, 23:19:32
At 43" overall it's around "long sword" length. The original has a 150 year span it may have been from, so 1250 is plenty within 13th century; right in the middle, actually. :)

I'm not sure if it's an outlier statistically, but remember there is "common" and "happened but not commonly".
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2015-02-20, 21:17:48
I'm not sure if it's an outlier statistically, but remember there is "common" and "happened but not commonly".

That's my understanding, that "longswords" existed as early as the 12th, but weren't very common.
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir Nate on 2015-02-20, 22:26:02
I'm not sure if it's an outlier statistically, but remember there is "common" and "happened but not commonly".

That's my understanding, that "longswords" existed as early as the 12th, but weren't very common.

Oh, I've always told people it wasn't seen until the mid 13th century.
Usually when talking about how many pre 1250 movies give the hero a two handed sword(particulary ironclad and KOH).


(edit by Sir Edward: moved the message outside of the quoted block)
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir William on 2015-02-24, 17:15:57
Naythan, you should not use movies as a reference to weapon historicity- because it rarely happens and when it does, usually by accident.  There are a few exceptions, Arn: Night Templar comes to mind as they went to Albion for all of their weapons needs (oh to have been one of the knight-extras, I would simply have demanded the sword as recompense in lieu of cash lol)...actually, Arn's the only one to come to mind that went that extra length for their swords.  KoH (1184AD w/a bastard sword) and Robin Hood (1199AD or thereabouts, singlehand) went with Windlass, while Ironclad appears to have went with someone else.  Then there's all the smaller budget films- I don't know who they're getting their weapons from but some of them are dog-ugly.  I've always thought that would be the case- not everyone's going to have the pristine man-killer we're so used to seeing.  I'm sure someone somewhere carried the Ford Pinto of swords just as the nobleman would have the Lamborghini of swords.
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir James A on 2015-02-24, 21:39:20
^ what Sir William said. Every time you use a non-period source, you're getting farther and farther from what you're trying to recreate. Think of the old "telephone" game, and what the starting phrase vs ending phrase is.
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir Nate on 2015-02-24, 23:12:18
Naythan, you should not use movies as a reference to weapon historicity- because it rarely happens and when it does, usually by accident.  There are a few exceptions, Arn: Night Templar comes to mind as they went to Albion for all of their weapons needs (oh to have been one of the knight-extras, I would simply have demanded the sword as recompense in lieu of cash lol)...actually, Arn's the only one to come to mind that went that extra length for their swords.  KoH (1184AD w/a bastard sword) and Robin Hood (1199AD or thereabouts, singlehand) went with Windlass, while Ironclad appears to have went with someone else.  Then there's all the smaller budget films- I don't know who they're getting their weapons from but some of them are dog-ugly.  I've always thought that would be the case- not everyone's going to have the pristine man-killer we're so used to seeing.  I'm sure someone somewhere carried the Ford Pinto of swords just as the nobleman would have the Lamborghini of swords.
I wasn't sourcing films,  I was referncing a situation where people think knights all had swords that size or that they were common because movies in KOH, Ironclad, and Brave heart, the hero has a two handed sword, or a great sword. Im not saying that means they did, Im saying its because of films like that Ive had to tell people they didn't have two handed swords like that yet. 
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2015-03-02, 19:14:20
Oh, I've always told people it wasn't seen until the mid 13th century.
Usually when talking about how many pre 1250 movies give the hero a two handed sword(particulary ironclad and KOH).

They became somewhat more common in the late 13th, and much more popular in the 14th, where we start to see the manuscripts describing their use. So you've been erring on the correct side of things. :)

Ironclad is particularly bad in some ways, in that the sword isn't just a longsword, it's freaking huge. The really large two-handers are a much later invention, being seen more with Landesknechts, and bearing swords, and a variety of other 15th/16th c. uses. These would be pretty much unheard of prior to the 14th, if I recall correctly.

Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir Humphrey on 2015-03-16, 15:50:45
I have that sword.  I would call it a Hand and a Half.  I can wield it one handed, but I'm 6'4".   A person of shorter stature might have trouble with one hand.   there is enough room, even with my big hams, to grip it with two hands, although the second hand would wrap around the pommel too.  I got mine used from Joe Metz and do not regret it in the least.  Here it is after grip rewrap along with the scabbard I made for it.

Sir Humphrey
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir James A on 2015-03-17, 16:41:28
^ that's beautiful!
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir William on 2015-03-17, 20:01:35
I wasn't sourcing films,  I was referncing a situation where people think knights all had swords that size or that they were common because movies in KOH, Ironclad, and Brave heart, the hero has a two handed sword, or a great sword. Im not saying that means they did, Im saying its because of films like that Ive had to tell people they didn't have two handed swords like that yet.

That just means you get a chance to educate the listeners- and another opportunity to expound on all things knightly, not just swords!  You can't help what Hollywood's done to the contemporary mind with regard to knights however- you can point out what they got right, rather than all the things they got wrong.  It'll make for a more meaningful discussion- don't get me wrong, I've been there, casting all kinds of shade at this or that movie for the things they got wrong but if you're talking to a bunch of people who got interested in knights in the first place because of these movies, you may not want to figuratively crap on what they liked about it as an opener.  Just my humble opinion, of course.

And Sir Humphrey- love what you've done with that sword.
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Chuck G. on 2015-03-21, 05:11:24
Oh, I've always told people it wasn't seen until the mid 13th century.
Usually when talking about how many pre 1250 movies give the hero a two handed sword(particulary ironclad and KOH).

They became somewhat more common in the late 13th, and much more popular in the 14th, where we start to see the manuscripts describing their use. So you've been erring on the correct side of things. :)

Ironclad is particularly bad in some ways, in that the sword isn't just a longsword, it's freaking huge. The really large two-handers are a much later invention, being seen more with Landesknechts, and bearing swords, and a variety of other 15th/16th c. uses. These would be pretty much unheard of prior to the 14th, if I recall correctly.

However, this Albion offering does seem to be based on originals from the 13th-14th centuries documented by Peter Johnsson's research, and is 55 inches long (!):
http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-2hander-archduke.htm (http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-2hander-archduke.htm)
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Don Jorge on 2015-03-21, 12:58:18
I have that sword.  I would call it a Hand and a Half.  I can wield it one handed, but I'm 6'4".   A person of shorter stature might have trouble with one hand.   there is enough room, even with my big hams, to grip it with two hands, although the second hand would wrap around the pommel too.  I got mine used from Joe Metz and do not regret it in the least.  Here it is after grip rewrap along with the scabbard I made for it.

Sir Humphrey

So beautiful!
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Lord Dane on 2015-03-24, 13:01:13
Gorgeous work
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Chuck G. on 2020-09-08, 05:02:40
I have that sword.  I would call it a Hand and a Half.  I can wield it one handed, but I'm 6'4".   A person of shorter stature might have trouble with one hand.   there is enough room, even with my big hams, to grip it with two hands, although the second hand would wrap around the pommel too.  I got mine used from Joe Metz and do not regret it in the least.  Here it is after grip rewrap along with the scabbard I made for it.

Sir Humphrey

Beautiful work! Earlier this year I finished a rehilt of an older version of this sword that I found on eBay to satisfy a strong desire for a High Middle Ages war sword with an octagonal pommel and medieval coins used as decoration, in the manner of the Duke of Urbino sword. This particular A&A example was of fairly early production – at least 20 years old per communication with their shop, given the combination of parts and the maker's mark used to stamp the blade.

Upon stripping the hilt I found some oddments with the tang that needed to be addressed, but otherwise no real problems. The pommel was great, particularly since it already had center recesses, but one side was too shallow and needed to be deepened. After considerable effort and expense trying to find a way to deal with that, I finally settled on using a Dremel grinding stone to deepen that side. The grip was reworked as well, simply to make it a bit slimmer and a better fit for the cross and pommel. Upon completion, I glued some reproduction medieval silver pennies into the recesses.

The main effort was with the crossguard. After much deliberation I decided against reworking the existing cross and made a new one from a mild steel bar. It is shorter overall than the original "spike" guard that was part of the as built piece and features a simple square cross section. I used a specialty tool I devised to help inlet the guard to fit the blade better.

I got compliments from the A&A shop on how the piece turned out, so I did something right!

I do need to make a scabbard at some point, however.
Title: Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
Post by: Sir Nate on 2021-07-27, 04:58:02
I have that sword.  I would call it a Hand and a Half.  I can wield it one handed, but I'm 6'4".   A person of shorter stature might have trouble with one hand.   there is enough room, even with my big hams, to grip it with two hands, although the second hand would wrap around the pommel too.  I got mine used from Joe Metz and do not regret it in the least.  Here it is after grip rewrap along with the scabbard I made for it.

Sir Humphrey

Beautiful work! Earlier this year I finished a rehilt of an older version of this sword that I found on eBay to satisfy a strong desire for a High Middle Ages war sword with an octagonal pommel and medieval coins used as decoration, in the manner of the Duke of Urbino sword. This particular A&A example was of fairly early production – at least 20 years old per communication with their shop, given the combination of parts and the maker's mark used to stamp the blade.

Upon stripping the hilt I found some oddments with the tang that needed to be addressed, but otherwise no real problems. The pommel was great, particularly since it already had center recesses, but one side was too shallow and needed to be deepened. After considerable effort and expense trying to find a way to deal with that, I finally settled on using a Dremel grinding stone to deepen that side. The grip was reworked as well, simply to make it a bit slimmer and a better fit for the cross and pommel. Upon completion, I glued some reproduction medieval silver pennies into the recesses.

The main effort was with the crossguard. After much deliberation I decided against reworking the existing cross and made a new one from a mild steel bar. It is shorter overall than the original "spike" guard that was part of the as built piece and features a simple square cross section. I used a specialty tool I devised to help inlet the guard to fit the blade better.

I got compliments from the A&A shop on how the piece turned out, so I did something right!

I do need to make a scabbard at some point, however.


Looks Excellent! I especially like the silver pennies!