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Main => The Armoury => The Workshop => Topic started by: Ian on 2014-08-14, 23:43:25

Title: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-14, 23:43:25
Leg Harness suspension should be comfortable!  Since this is sometimes a hard concept to explain I just made a video instead.

The first video explains the principle and theory of comfortable suspension:

  How to Suspend a Medieval Leg Harness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMdNbPQipB0#ws)

The second video focuses on historically defensible ways to do it in the late 14th and early 15th century.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1otNlYgX4eA
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2014-08-15, 03:08:20
Looks like I may have to try the waist belt idea for my chausses though that will require some crafting. Good video though, now I realize you don't have to lace the pourpoint ALL the way up now, that will make things a lot easier for my chausses now.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2014-08-15, 03:57:55
Thanks for posting the informative video.  A short vid is worth a thousand (or more) words.

I learned three main points (pun intended):

I don’t have to spiral lace my pourpoint all the way up.   :)
You’re much thinner than I.   ;)
I need to get off my butt and make a properly patterned arming coat that looks & performs half as well as yours!    :o
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-15, 11:59:40
For a full arming doublet you should lace it all the way up.  I just didn't bother to lace that vest up in the video to further emphasize the point that it's not actively contributing to the suspension of the legs if and only if the garment fits tight enough at the waist and hips. 

Theoretically, if you wear one of those vests, you can literally cut the shoulder seams completely and it should still function 100%.  The shoulders don't do anything, but I guess it would look weird if you just had a little mini-corset on to suspend your legs :)  The upper half of a full arming doublet does serve a purpose though and needs to be laced.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Patrick on 2014-08-15, 12:59:38
Great vid!  Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-08-15, 13:31:08

I have this scheduled to go up on the Order's FB page at noon.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-08-15, 21:12:10
i got bored. no boobies in this video ;)
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-15, 23:16:05
i got bored. no boobies in this video ;)

Maybe I could get a goat to run around in the background of my next video
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-08-16, 00:37:52
you had me at goat
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Lord Dane on 2014-08-16, 14:27:45
Very helpful, Sir Ian. :) Now I just need someone to help get dressed day in & out. LOL
Maybe I'll start a new program ... squire-4-hire.com.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-08-16, 21:17:40
i got bored. no boobies in this video ;)
+1
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2014-08-18, 02:53:27
i got bored. no boobies in this video ;)

The sad fact of the matter is that I read this post as "I got bored, no newbies in this video".   :-[
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-08-18, 03:15:47
i got bored. no boobies in this video ;)
Here's a really nice pair I found just for you! ;)
(http://www.duskyswondersite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/blue-footed-booby-two.jpg)





So on a more serious note: Ian, have you found that spiral lacing makes a difference? I know that was the period method, so the point is probably moot, but I was wondering if there were any advantages to spiral lacing over something like a modern cross lacing.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Eva de Carduus Weald on 2014-08-18, 14:00:16
How do you spiral lace? (insert newb post)
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-18, 14:06:55
So on a more serious note: Ian, have you found that spiral lacing makes a difference? I know that was the period method, so the point is probably moot, but I was wondering if there were any advantages to spiral lacing over something like a modern cross lacing.

Doug, I find that spiral lacing is easier, because it just requires one lace.  Or if you do cross lace with one really long lace, you don't have to worry about making sure anything's even when spiral lacing.  I also find that spiral lacing allows me to achieve the desired fit and tightness at each section of the garment.  I'm a little more in control of tightness when compared to cross lacing, which is just evenly tight the whole way.  It also may be a figment of my imagination but I don't  notice spiral laced garments backing off over time.  And finally, and possibly most importantly in this endeavor is that it is of course the historically correct way to do it.  Virtually all examples of front closing garments on effigies and in artwork are spiral laced.  There are a few exceptions, but they're exceedingly rare.

How do you spiral lace? (insert newb post)

Eva, spiral lacing requires that the lacing eyelets be sewn in an offset pattern.  So unlike modern lacing where the opposing eyelets are directly across from each other, eyelets on a garment intended for spiral lacing are staggered.  It is the appropriate lacing method for most historical garments up to the 18th century.  The first and last eyelets are little different (there doubled up), you can see the difference here (this is in order to start the proper pattern).  The reason for the half-spaced eyelets on the first and last set is to ensure you can start the spiral pattern and at the same time keep the garment from shifting and making the edges unaligned:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8299/7921321814_fbffdae73e_o.gif)

And here's the accompanying tutorial on the proper method of hole placement and how to lace the garment:
http://www.festiveattyre.com/p/the-zen-of-spiral-lacing.html (http://www.festiveattyre.com/p/the-zen-of-spiral-lacing.html)
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2014-08-19, 02:24:49
Ian,

I spiral lace my pourpoint from the bottom up and I’m left with a lengthy string at my neck opening.  I usually lace it back through the second-to-last eyelet, pull it snug, and tuck the remainder down the front of my shirt.  I don’t tie it in any fashion and have never had the lace loosen on me.  Is this the historically correct method?  If not, what is?
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-19, 02:37:58
Ian,

I spiral lace my pourpoint from the bottom up and I’m left with a lengthy string at my neck opening.  I usually lace it back through the second-to-last eyelet, pull it snug, and tuck the remainder down the front of my shirt.  I don’t tie it in any fashion and have never had the lace loosen on me.  Is this the historically correct method?  If not, what is?

I don't know exactly how they tied it off or if they did, but I basically do the same thing you do.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-08-19, 11:39:20
if u look at 15th paintings etc you see the single looped bow knot
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Eva de Carduus Weald on 2014-08-19, 15:02:47
Ah thank you very much for the link, that makes a lot of sense. And it can get rid of the little bow I have been having on all of my previous garb. It also looks like you could tie the bottom and top together if you really want to. When I make my guard tabard I will ask the seamstress to make off set holes for spiral lacing.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-19, 15:04:34
In another thread you asked about a cotehardie being similar to an arming garment.  It's not.  It's not load-bearing.  Either garment I'm wearing in this video will work, the second garment will support both a leg and arm harness though, if that is a concern.  I personally point my arms to my maille, but some people don't.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Eva de Carduus Weald on 2014-08-19, 15:18:56
Ohh sorry I missed that somewhere. Hmm well when I get to the point of having a mail shirt I could tie to that. Or it looks like the arming coat isn't too complex I can make it out of stronger material than my usual garb, the coathardie will be made of linen.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-19, 15:23:13
Ohh sorry I missed that somewhere. Hmm well when I get to the point of having a mail shirt I could tie to that. Or it looks like the arming coat isn't too complex I can make it out of stronger material than my usual garb, the coathardie will be made of linen.

Honestly, arming garments are whole different discussion on their own with equal complexity to armor in some cases.  But they're in some respects more important than armor, because without a well fitted arming garment even the most expensive custom armor will not function or wear properly.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Eva de Carduus Weald on 2014-08-19, 15:33:38
Eeek, perhaps that should be my first research project then. I don't want to buy something and not have it work well.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-08-19, 19:54:34
if u look at 15th paintings etc you see the single looped bow knot

^ that's what I do with mine, hasn't ever come undone in 3 years
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-08-21, 02:48:22
The shoulders don't do anything, but I guess it would look weird if you just had a little mini-corset on to suspend your legs :)

So, um, I kind of ran with this and made a quick prototype for my mail chausses to replace the thick belt I've been using. It's less corset and more girdle though. Kind of like the belt setup we were discussing on FB. I haven't had a chance to properly test it yet, but it does fit very snug around my waist and does seem to have that "lock in" effect. I'll let you know how it goes when I strap some armor to it.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-21, 02:49:44
The shoulders don't do anything, but I guess it would look weird if you just had a little mini-corset on to suspend your legs :)

So, um, I kind of ran with this and made a quick prototype for my mail chausses to replace the thick belt I've been using. It's less corset and more girdle though. Kind of like the belt setup we were discussing on FB. I haven't had a chance to properly test it yet, but it does fit very snug around my waist and does seem to have that "lock in" effect. I'll let you know how it goes when I strap some armor to it.

Leather?  I'm very interested to see how this turns out.  Post photos and your findings, even if it doesn't work.  Experimental archaeology at work!
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-08-21, 02:55:10
Cheap fabric for now, but if it looks like I'm on the right track, I'll probably make another in leather.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-08-21, 13:48:12
Cool, I look forward to seeing how that works out.

Right now, I suspend my mail chausses with a belt, and it's tough to wear it for long periods of time (especially since they weigh nearly as much as a haubergeon). The pourpoint seems completely out of place for circa 1300, and I don't think we have evidence of anything other than belts being used at that time. But for something that's hidden from view, I will cheat like crazy, unapologetically.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-08-22, 00:15:00
Here's a quick test fit I did today. Excuse the awkward photo angles.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3884/14807726508_8cce756667_c.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5579/14994310515_3b6d977876_c.jpg)

It seems to work very well, and I immediately noticed how much more comfortable it was compared to the belt I had been using. I really didn't even feel like I had it on.
I only wore it around for about and hour, though, and I didn't bother lacing my chausses up completely or donning any arming garments. The Pittsburgh RenFest is coming up this weekend, so I'll see how it holds up to a full day's use and report back. :)

Here's how I have it all set up. Cute, isn't it?
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5587/14807608279_f335fe9ebf_c.jpg)

Again, it's just cheap fabric and a somewhat chinchy construction (I doubt those lacing eyelets would hold up for a long time). I didn't want to go cutting into my good leather until I at least had an idea if it would work or not, but so far, it looks promising.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-22, 00:19:45
Very nice!  That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to describe.  It's just got to be more comfortable than a C-Belt or a narrow belt.  I would guess that lacing your chausses up would only make the wear more comfortable, because it should take some weight off the points.  I might try making the belt a little longer length wise, so that the ends are closer together when it's laced tight, if anything just to get more surface area against your body and less stress on the lace. 
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-08-22, 13:05:41

That looks great! How much does it pull on the points? Is that steel or aluminum mail?

Part of my problem is that my chausses simply weigh so much. The weight on the points is quite nasty, even with a lot of lacing tied off around the knee, etc. I see yours are open around the back of the leg too, so I'm sure that helps with the weight.

Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-22, 13:14:29

That looks great! How much does it pull on the points? Is that steel or aluminum mail?

Part of my problem is that my chausses simply weigh so much. The weight on the points is quite nasty, even with a lot of lacing tied off around the knee, etc. I see yours are open around the back of the leg too, so I'm sure that helps with the weight.

I would suggest multiple points per leg if the weight of one leg is too much for one point. 

For those interested (Sir William has already found it, thanks Sir William!) I am trying to start a discussion about this on the AA.  Sometimes the AA doesn't respond well to thinking outside the box, so it may just be dismissed outright with a haruumph... like a lot of non-standard ideas are, but we'll see!

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=173292 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=173292)
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-08-22, 17:49:00
I'm not sure if I should be terrified or giggle childishly at the thought of a comfortable man-girdle-corset, even if it does have armor attached to it. :)
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Patrick on 2014-08-22, 21:15:10
Well I can put those P90X DVDs away now...
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-08-23, 01:34:22
Yeah, multiple points would probably be a good idea for full chausses. I never considered that they would indeed be heavier than my lace-up ones.
More experimentation is probably required on that front, but it actually seems like the eyelets for lacing up the girdle have more signs of stress than the ones holding up the chausses (My mistake for making the girdle a wee bit too short). I think the crossed laces over the leather reinforcements help distribute some of the stress of holding up the mail. So I've heard, anyway.

I'm not sure if I should be terrified or giggle childishly at the thought of a comfortable man-girdle-corset, even if it does have armor attached to it. :)

Okay, so that’s one man-girdle-corset with fancy floral embroidery and a pretty lace frill for Sir James. Any other takers? ;)
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-08-23, 19:23:41
I think the crossed laces over the leather reinforcements help distribute some of the stress of holding up the mail. So I've heard, anyway.

I don't cross my laces, but, I do have the four-hole patch style like you use. I think the biggest things are it's a firmer support surface, and distributing the weight amongst the four points (instead of a single one like on cross-lacing) helps reduce the stretching and pulling effect. It doesn't eliminate it, but it does reduce it.

I bet your leather one won't show nearly as much "tug" to it with the cross-lacing. And I'd bet if you did single-piece leather trim of sufficient enough weight on both sides of the fabric one, you wouldn't see the fabric pulling either. It's easy to pull fabric in single holes, since the nature of the fabric weave gives it some slack without tearing, whereas leather won't.

I'm not sure if I should be terrified or giggle childishly at the thought of a comfortable man-girdle-corset, even if it does have armor attached to it. :)

Okay, so that’s one man-girdle-corset with fancy floral embroidery and a pretty lace frill for Sir James. Any other takers? ;)

I can only get one? I was hoping for a semi-formal AND a formal. :(

Sir Ian: I just got to watch the video now. Excellent! The only thing I could add to it would be that you said the garment isn't big enough to close; I would just note that it's actually correct that it is "smaller" than it looks like it should be, for those still new to the concept. Everything else is great!

I'm surprised those two-hole thin leather points actually held that 40 pound weight too. Both pourpoints I had tore them in half the first time I wore them, and in less than an hour or two (once was just at home!).

Going back a year or two, one thing finally clicked why you can point your legs to the inside of your gambeson without a headache like I had; you have slits at the bottom. My gambeson was solid all the way around (minus front buttons, of course) and doesn't "flip" up as easily as yours, it wanted to twist and bind when trying to tie something to the inside of it. You may have motivated me to revisit my gambeson. :D
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-23, 21:15:37
Going back a year or two, one thing finally clicked why you can point your legs to the inside of your gambeson without a headache like I had; you have slits at the bottom. My gambeson was solid all the way around (minus front buttons, of course) and doesn't "flip" up as easily as yours, it wanted to twist and bind when trying to tie something to the inside of it. You may have motivated me to revisit my gambeson. :D

Opening up the side seams and re-hemming it so there's some slits would be relatively trivial if you wanted to mod yours.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-08-25, 00:18:07
So I just spent an eight-hour day walking round with my chausses strapped to the man-girdle and Holy. Cow. This is about the best piece of kit I have!

Okay, maybe that's overstating it just a bit, but seriously, this thing was awesome. It held up well the entire day, I didn't have to adjust it once, it didn't sag or slide down my hips at all, an it kept the chausses right where they were supposed to be. It didn't even feel like I had it on all day.

I'd definitely recommend that my fellow chausse-wearers at least look into the idea. I don't really know if it would react any differently with heavier, full chausses, but it may be worth checking out. Major kudos to Sir Ian for originally inspiring the idea!
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-08-25, 00:32:00
So I just spent an eight-hour day walking round with my chausses strapped to the man-girdle and Holy. Cow. This is about the best piece of kit I have!

Okay, maybe that's overstating it just a bit, but seriously, this thing was awesome. It held up well the entire day, I didn't have to adjust it once, it didn't sag or slide down my hips at all, an it kept the chausses right where they were supposed to be. It didn't even feel like I had it on all day.

I'd definitely recommend that my fellow chausse-wearers at least look into the idea. I don't really know if it would react any differently with heavier, full chausses, but it may be worth checking out. Major kudos to Sir Ian for originally inspiring the idea!

Thank you for being the guinea pig for the idea.  I'm happy it's working out!  It seemed sound in my head, I just don't have any chausses to try it with.  Now get a historical version done before DoK :) *nudge nudge*
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-08-25, 21:42:15
Going back a year or two, one thing finally clicked why you can point your legs to the inside of your gambeson without a headache like I had; you have slits at the bottom. My gambeson was solid all the way around (minus front buttons, of course) and doesn't "flip" up as easily as yours, it wanted to twist and bind when trying to tie something to the inside of it. You may have motivated me to revisit my gambeson. :D

Opening up the side seams and re-hemming it so there's some slits would be relatively trivial if you wanted to mod yours.

That's a much better option than my usual "fetch me the scissors and glue!" I was going to embark upon. Thank goodness I didn't start on it yet. :) I'll report back when I get it done.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-09-16, 11:00:03
I need to build me one of these for my leg harness until my cdb gets done! It looks comfy.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-09-16, 13:20:08
I need to build me one of these for my leg harness until my cdb gets done! It looks comfy.

I may actually go this route and not worry about tailoring my next CdB as closely.  I have to eventually replace my CdB with a hand-quilted version... not looking forward to that.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-09-16, 17:14:33
I need to build me one of these for my leg harness until my cdb gets done! It looks comfy.

I may actually go this route and not worry about tailoring my next CdB as closely.  I have to eventually replace my CdB with a hand-quilted version... not looking forward to that.

Possibly stupid question, but, one of these over a pourpoint - any particular reason, living history in particular?
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-09-16, 17:24:01
I need to build me one of these for my leg harness until my cdb gets done! It looks comfy.

I may actually go this route and not worry about tailoring my next CdB as closely.  I have to eventually replace my CdB with a hand-quilted version... not looking forward to that.

Possibly stupid question, but, one of these over a pourpoint - any particular reason, living history in particular?

Fabric belt under a pourpoint, not over.  It would make tailoring a CdB a lot easier, and there's evidence of suspended plate legs that disappear under the upper body garment with no visible points.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-09-16, 17:38:42
I need to build me one of these for my leg harness until my cdb gets done! It looks comfy.

I may actually go this route and not worry about tailoring my next CdB as closely.  I have to eventually replace my CdB with a hand-quilted version... not looking forward to that.

Possibly stupid question, but, one of these over a pourpoint - any particular reason, living history in particular?

Fabric belt under a pourpoint, not over.  It would make tailoring a CdB a lot easier, and there's evidence of suspended plate legs that disappear under the upper body garment with no visible points.

Sorry, poor choice of words on my part. :( I didn't mean wearing it over, I meant "over a pourpoint" as "as preferential to a pourpoint", or, why would you make one of these instead of using a pourpoint? (since you already have one)

I know the straps on a pourpoint are pointless for most people, just curious on your thoughts of pourpoint vs this suspension method. :)

edit: If you have links / pics on hand of the hidden leg suspension, I'd like to see them. I've been through a few iterations of leg suspension and it's a neat subject.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-09-16, 18:16:40
Oh!  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I have to make a new pourpoint eventually anyway.  Mine does not meet vetting standards because it is machine quilted.  It needs to be hand quilted.  It's also a giant pain in the butt to tailor it just right to get it to support a leg harness without transferring any weight to my shoulders.  So just out of convenience I would consider doing this method since it's historic and would save me some grief on the next CdB pourpoint project.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-09-16, 23:25:09
Yeah watching Jessica Finley make this green hand quilted CdB for Sean makes me cringe...so much work and details!
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2014-09-17, 00:22:38
Yeah watching Jessica Finley make this green hand quilted CdB for Sean makes me cringe...so much work and details!

The martial version of that cote need not be so tedious. 
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-09-17, 14:20:46
Oh!  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I have to make a new pourpoint eventually anyway.  Mine does not meet vetting standards because it is machine quilted.  It needs to be hand quilted.  It's also a giant pain in the butt to tailor it just right to get it to support a leg harness without transferring any weight to my shoulders.  So just out of convenience I would consider doing this method since it's historic and would save me some grief on the next CdB pourpoint project.

Ah, that makes perfect sense, I forgot about the vetting. If you think it's hard to tailor for you, try tailoring it where your stomach is bigger than your waist, and it constantly wants to drag itself down to the thinner area. My pourpoint needs those shoulder straps lol.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2015-03-12, 21:46:26
I decided to revisit this and prototype the idea in some cow hide I had lying around.

It functions identically to a textile support which is what I had hoped it would do.  The leather edging along the top hem prevents the 'belt' from stretching when you buckle it tight.  This is important so that it doesn't shift after wearing it.  It offers the same flexibility and comfort as a textile, and none of the restrictiveness of a thick c-belt.  It also distributes the weight over a large surface area so you don't get digging in to the hips as you would with a thinner belt alternative.  You retain the same range of motion you would with an arming doublet, including comfortably sitting down.

This method will also work for maille chausses, and you can easily whip-stitch a maille skirt to the bottom hem to suspend that comfortably as well.  The only reason I would choose this method *over* the arming doublet is for ease of tailoring in the textile garment, or convenience.  If you do a time period that has a huge gap in knowledge when it comes to suspending legs, this is a viable solution, and dare I say superior to some of the more uncomfortable or inflexible methods out there.

A Charles de Blois style pourpoint is what I normally use to suspend my legs comfortably, but I will be the first to admit that the tailoring of this garment can be tough when you absolutely want to ensure that 0 weight transfer goes to your shoulders.  It's quite achievable (I get absolutely no weight transfer to my shoulders in my version), but it may be beyond the comfort level of some folks.  It involves making sure that when laced tightly the garment is completely girdling the hips and waist, and that there is enough vertical length in the garment to prevent tugging at the shoulders when weight is pulling the hem with gravity.  It also can't be too much vertical length that it appears in excess and looks messy.  If that's not something you want to mess with but seek a comfortable alternative, the leather arming girdle is comparatively simple to engineer.  For comparison my hand-sewn CdB pictured below represents about 100 hrs of work, the hand-sewn leather arming girdle represents about 5.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8643/16502725579_59af09bd25.jpg)

This is the speculative alternative:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8678/16609192178_b9a200c4f3_z.jpg)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7597/16797146165_1f251d0dae_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir William on 2015-03-13, 13:41:52
Dude, you are filled with all kinds of awesome sauce- I caught the thread on AA.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Nate on 2015-03-13, 18:07:59
yah this is really awesome. I'll need to make or get one somehow, it will be useful once I have Mail chausses plus my cuisses.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Brian on 2015-03-15, 11:00:36
Excellent job Sir Ian! I will have to add this to my 'TO DO' list! Do you prefer the fit and function of this over a Pourpoint?
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2015-03-15, 18:24:15
Excellent job Sir Ian! I will have to add this to my 'TO DO' list! Do you prefer the fit and function of this over a Pourpoint?

If you're wearing a properly tailored arming garment, the fit and function should be identical.  That was the point of this venture into experimental archaeology, to see if I could reproduce something as comfortable as a properly tailored arming doublet without the doublet.  Having just vetted both this (with a required modification, the arming patches will need to be relocated to the inside in keeping with the aesthetic of medieval leatherwork), and the new hand sewn CdB, I intend to try each out for a full day at MTA this weekend and compare.

If for some reason the leather girdle functions better, then it would be an indication that my CdB has something wrong with it's tailoring.  I would prefer the girdle as an alternative, not a replacement for a proper arming garment.  From the historical side, we know that armed men were using arming doublets to suspend leg harness.  We also know that there was some other means of suspending a leg harness since there is imagery of men in harness with clearly no visible means of support on their exposed doublets, yet their leg harness has to be supported by something.  We may never know what that something is, but this is one of the good guesses.  For earlier periods when there was no arming doublet, like the age of maille, we know from text that some sort of 'belt' or 'girdle' was used.  But what it looked like, no one knows.  Again, this is a good guess.  If it works as  intended it will certainly be a superior alternative to most of what the people wearing maille are utilizing right now (c-belts, thin belts, vests etc), and in keeping with the vague sources.

It would also work very well for a person interested in wearing a maille skirt.  You can whip-stitch a maille skirt to the hem of the leather girdle, and at the same time use it to support your leg harness from the inside.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2015-03-17, 20:30:42
I've modified this as was recommended.  The arming tabs were cut off and re-stitched to the inside.  This is in keeping more with an appropriate medieval leatherworking aesthetic and also presents a much cleaner look.  This also makes the girdle more compatible with a maille skirt.  If you whipped a skirt to the leather hem, you could point your legs underneath with no interference. 

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8743/16821541606_f7237064ae_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Lord Dane on 2015-03-17, 22:14:32
Exceptional work Ian!!! :) I love the girdle. It looks quite comfortable and the workmanship shows. You definitely gave me some ideas for my harness.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Humphrey on 2015-03-18, 13:54:33
When/If I finally get some mail chauses, I'll be making me one of these girdles.  I think Ian and others have broken the code.  I'll have to admit, that I no longer have acessable hip bones.  Age and exeriance does to a man.  Maybe I can get it tight enough that it wont slip down and tangle me up.

Sir Humphrey
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2015-03-19, 05:02:10
I'll have to admit, that I no longer have acessable hip bones.  Age and exeriance does to a man.  Maybe I can get it tight enough that it wont slip down and tangle me up.

Sir Humphrey

Ha!  I discussed that very issue with Ian on AA.  :o
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir William on 2015-03-19, 14:43:31
Oh!  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I have to make a new pourpoint eventually anyway.  Mine does not meet vetting standards because it is machine quilted.  It needs to be hand quilted.  It's also a giant pain in the butt to tailor it just right to get it to support a leg harness without transferring any weight to my shoulders.  So just out of convenience I would consider doing this method since it's historic and would save me some grief on the next CdB pourpoint project.

Good sir, if you do decide to let that machined one go, keep me in mind?  I know I might be slightly more 'girthy' than you but I'm working on that.  lol
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Nate on 2015-04-21, 01:25:58
My friend samuel Petterson made a linen one.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2015-04-21, 01:36:45
It looks like he just made a big rectangle, it needs to be shaped to match the curve of the hips to function optimally.   When rolled out it actually should be more of a U shape with the upper edge shorter than the lower edge.

The U shape will prevent it from sliding down over time because the length of the top edge is less than your hip circumference, so it can't slip off.  A rectangle will tend to slide down over time, or bunch up because at no point is it less than the widest circumference of your body.  I've attached a really bad track-pad drawing of the basic idea.  My design is also set up to buckle in the back.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2015-04-23, 00:05:12
^ second what Sir Ian said

Look at the C-Belt shaping as an example too.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Lord Dane on 2015-07-13, 07:58:22
Questions for you guys: What would be the difference between using Ian's girdle idea (linen or leather with tie points) and using a leather kidney belt with the cross straps and buckles?? Would there be historical variation, difference, or significance?? Kidney belts are more protection than support from a Roman-Greco era when Gladiators fought but seems it would work the same in principle for Crusader era maille chausses or even plate armor (depending on how you rig the suspension). It might be more rigid but certainly seems feasible. Thoughts???
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2015-07-13, 13:57:13
Questions for you guys: What would be the difference between using Ian's girdle idea (linen or leather with tie points) and using a leather kidney belt with the cross straps and buckles?? Would there be historical variation, difference, or significance?? Kidney belts are more protection than support from a Roman-Greco era when Gladiators fought but seems it would work the same in principle for Crusader era maille chausses or even plate armor (depending on how you rig the suspension). It might be more rigid but certainly seems feasible. Thoughts???

The historical significance is that there's no evidence for a kidney belt in the middle ages, or anything discretely worn to protect the kidneys.  Obviously things like a Coat of Plates or the fauld on a cuirass, or maille would do it, but a kidney belt is something else entirely.  Nothing like that shows up in any armory inventories that I'm aware of, which is likely where they would show up if they existed since they wouldn't be a visible layer in artwork. 

That being said, a kidney belt may physically work to support a pair of chausses, it's just not optimal.  The shape is basically a rectangle with a swell in the middle to protect the kidneys, so it will probably tend to ride down over time.  That's why a normal belt isn't that great either.  The materials for the kidney belt are also not ideal.  The reason for not using thick rigid materials like that are important.  The thicker and more rigid the material, the more it will dig in to your hips and make wear uncomfortable.  The reason for wearing a flexible, supple leather or textile is to use something that conforms naturally to the body.  With increased application of downward force on something flexible and conforming, you may feel increased pressure, but you won't get edges digging in to your hip bones and skin.  With any sort of thick, rigid material, over time you will get that feeling like your belt is cutting in to you.  The downward force will be variable as you move around, so you don't want something that will cause you pain every time you lift your leg and it tugs on your support system. 
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2015-07-14, 03:21:25
... With any sort of thick, rigid material, over time you will get that feeling like your belt is cutting in to you.  The downward force will be variable as you move around, so you don't want something that will cause you pain every time you lift your leg and it tugs on your support system.

Been there, done that, not going back!   :o
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2015-07-14, 23:33:31
That being said, a kidney belt may physically work to support a pair of chausses, it's just not optimal.

It will, and it is not.

(http://james-anderson-iii.com/content/tutorials/pages/pointing-leg-armor/large/Photo0442.jpg)

(C-Belt vs Kidney belt, but same idea)
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Ian on 2015-08-17, 16:28:29
Here's my current thinking on the 'historical' ways to accomplish this comfortably (also added to the arming series thread and the first post in this thread):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1otNlYgX4eA
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Henrik Granlid on 2015-09-14, 21:38:34
Patterned, cut, batted and tacked. I'll go to quilting and sewing tomorrow I think. However, I am undecided on wether or not to get pvc for a quilting frame, rather than just keeping it lax across my knee.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2017-08-05, 17:25:59
ive tried period and non period ways of doing this. stuff still sags, twists, pulls on the hips, back or shoulders.
Title: Re: Suspending a Leg Harness
Post by: Sir James A on 2017-08-10, 01:53:32
I've had pretty good luck with the lendenier this year