ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Brian on 2010-09-23, 20:25:03
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I humbly ask you noble sirs to please provide me with your opinions of which of new COA designs looks best. :-\
First:
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/coa_new-3.jpg)
Second:
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/coa_new-4.jpg)
Third:
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/coa_new-5.jpg)
Thank you for your opinions! :)
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Sir Brian, I actually prefer the third, if only because of its coventional placement of your charges AND the separator is a flat line...kinda like the wavy one too, but the first one I'd only use if it were for a female knight or... -at-arms.
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Wow, that's a difficult choice. I mean, I like the classic straight lines, but you also don't see people doing the more complex transitions like the first one very often. It's pretty cool. But I really love graceful curves too, like the middle one. Ugh.
This is why I drew up more than 40 variations before settling down on my current heraldry. My only recommendation is to be 100% sure you have what you want before getting a banner from Dirk & Arrow. :)
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2 and 3 have my eye. i like the more complex of 2 but then i like the simplicity of 3 ahhhhhhhhhhh
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I like them all, Sir Brian, but I would have to go with two, or three....
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Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and opinions! I think I prefer the wavy line of division on the chief but have also considered inverting the color/metal of the chief so it would look like this:
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/coa_new-6.jpg)
as an alternate to the previous second choice. :-\
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/coa_new-4.jpg)
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now i think i like the white better with the black rose!
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Yeah me too! The more I look at it the better I like it! The best part is I won't have to change the color/metal of my torse whenever I pull the great helm out of semi-retirement! ;)
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Interesting. I hadn't thought to try that, which is ironic since that's what I did with mine. Black and white go with everything, but the white has a very different feel. In my case, it somehow felt more knightly to go with blue/white instead of blue/black as the main colors. Stepping out of darkness, perhaps? :)
I wish I could see both combinations on your surcoat side-by-side. Heh. Maybe we need to do a little photoshopping. :)
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OK, let's look at this:
(http://modernchivalry.org/pictures/brian-surcoat-wavy-white.jpg) (http://modernchivalry.org/pictures/brian-surcoat-wavy-black.jpg)
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i dont think it would look like that on a surcoat. remember the rules of heraldry. isnt the top to become the right hand side and the bottom the left? i'm trying to remember. we had it in an earlier posting. it does look cool though.
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You know, I have no idea. It would be a good thing to have all figured out before putting it to fabric!
EDIT: I had been under the assumption that it would either match the shield exactly, or otherwise if you're going with a two-color vertical split like mine, that you'd want to preserve which color is in dexter and which is in sinister. This makes my current surcoat backwards, since the white should be in dexter (the wearer's right).
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Lol, most excellent Sir Edward and thank you that helps immensely but I believe Sir Wolf might be correct.
That was part of what is wrong with my original surcoat. - At most it should have been quartered.
For the new COA I believe the primary color and metal will suffice for the surcoat.
(Besides I could seriously hurt myself trying to sew those wavy stitch lines!) :D
So with my paltry attempt of blazonry I came up with this:
Vert, a gryphon or segreant. On a chief wavy argent, a rose sable.
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huzzah!
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Most excellent. :) I did some quick googling, and I couldn't find anything specific about rules for translating it to the surcoat, except some mention that the surcoats sometimes had additional charges not in the heraldry.
So yeah, unless we can find better documentation, I'd stick with parti-colored (per-pale, like mine) or quarterly (per cross), and just preserve which colors/metals are in dexter and sinister.
So for me, I should switch the colors, and put the dragon and ankh over their correct colors. :)
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(http://modernchivalry.org/pictures/brian-surcoat-whitegreen.jpg)
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WHOA! You might be onto something there Sir Edward! That looks great! I'll take three of them!
Can you have them ready before our October 16th invasion weekend? ;)
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Haha, it's hard enough to find time to sew my own. :)
The interesting thing is that I'm not sure if what I did is correct. Technically, the green is in dexter, I think, because the chief sits over it (in terms of layering) and it's the only color in the base division of the shield. However, if you called it "Per Fess, Argent and Vert", the white would be in dexter. Really, the only visible difference is where the color separation is. Right across the middle it's really Per Fess, whereas close to the top, it's a Chief over a single-color field. But I'm just not sure in the case of the chief as to which color is suppose to come "first".
EDIT: as an aside, this is cool: http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/variants.html (http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/variants.html) ... I forgot all about fimbriation and voiding and all that.
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So with my paltry attempt of blazonry I came up with this:
Vert, a gryphon or segreant. On a chief wavy argent, a rose sable.
Ok the blazon program confirmed my blazonry skills are sadly lacking! The program blazoned my new COA as follows: :-[
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent, a rose Sable, a Gryphon Segreant Or
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The black rose on the white field (argent-silver) would have actually been more realistic, and authentic.
I like the wave too, SHARP! ;D
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OK, let's look at this:
(http://modernchivalry.org/pictures/brian-surcoat-wavy-white.jpg)
Ok, I’ve been searching the net for several hours and have seen many variations of surcoats/jupons with some of them being quite elaborate ~ the best known example being the black prince’s jupon complete with his cadency label. Therefore I think I will attempt to portray the wavy chief of my new COA on my new surcoat. Wish me luck! (omg what am I getting myself into?!? :D)
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Ok, I’ve been searching the net for several hours and have seen many variations of surcoats/jupons with some of them being quite elaborate ~ the best known example being the black prince’s jupon complete with his cadency label. Therefore I think I will attempt to portray the wavy chief of my new COA on my new surcoat. Wish me luck! (omg what am I getting myself into?!? :D)
Wow, good luck! I can only do straight lines. :)
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I think I'll try and do it as an appliqué instead of sweating on getting two separate pieces of fabric to adjoin correctly, even then it is still going to be a squiggly line PITA! (yes pita is an acronym!) ;)
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Can't wait to see the finished product!
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uh oh! I was afraid I'd find something like this!
http://www.jrbsilks.com/product_info.php?pName=apple-green&cName=dupioni-solids&osCsid=bf38e64aacb9acb00dd42e6930bcb52a (http://www.jrbsilks.com/product_info.php?pName=apple-green&cName=dupioni-solids&osCsid=bf38e64aacb9acb00dd42e6930bcb52a)
WHY does the best shade of green have to come only in silk?
*sigh* This is going to be an expensive surcoat! :-\
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Traditionally speaking, weren't knightly surcoats made of silk?
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Well yes the more successful knights had them. I was mainly concerned with the durability of the silk, so
I decided I’ll make the surcoat with a heavy weight linen (7.1 oz) liner for the silk. ;)
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Silk's pretty tough tho, or I thought it would be. Either way, its gonna be fantastic...I'm not quite there yet with the complex heraldry having just gotten the Crusader itch calmed down in the blood. ;)
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Well you could always develop your COA, you know the ones you put aside before you took up the cross and vows of a Templar! ;)
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I like the new surcoat Sir Brian!. I think that I would put a heavy linen or canvas backing on the silk too. It should help with the wear on the silk. Silk is pretty durable but unfortunately from my experience is subject to snags and runs, which a liner should help prevent the armor from doing. I look forward to seeing the finished product in person.
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Historically they could be made of silk, linen, or wool. It would depend on your wealth, how durable you would want it to be, availability of fabric, etc.
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In what order are they, from richest to poorest?
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I'm not sure how linen and wool compared, in terms of cost. Silk would be the most expensive I think.
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Which still holds true today! :D
btw,
Ok so I’ve been psychically making this surcoat and how best to do the white portion of it. I was thinking of cutting the wavy shape on two pieces of white silk then sew them together to form an appliqué then sew that onto the surcoat. :-\
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That's probably a good way to do it. A lot would have been done as appliques back in the day anyway. If you can pin it in place, you can run some curvy stitch lines to stitch down the edges. I'm not sure how it's done, but I've seen appliques with edge stitching that's kinda like that dense stitching done in button-holes. Or, you could hem the edges before attaching them.
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BTW, just one word of warning about using white fabric.... it's a lot harder to keep clean, and shows the armor grime really fast. I can't get all of the black out of my white shirts that I wear under the armor, for instance. Most, but not all.
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^^^definitely, what he said. Now I have but two shirts that I wear under armor now, simply for that reason.
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No worries there my friends! I'm well accustomed to handwashing my torse because the white portion of it gets so filthy from rubbing up against my mailled armpits when I hold it. ;)
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Actually, according to my research, linen was very expensive while wool was cheap and silk was relatively inexpensive. Cotton was very expensive and generally only seen on clothing for nobility.
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umm no linen was an everyday item. you will find everyone had linen under garments and tunics under their wools. cotton was not used in Europe as a clothing item until later (post 15th century anyways)
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After purchasing the dupioni silk fabric and bias tape from Hancock fabric the other day, my executive producer (my wife) strongly suggested that I hire someone to make my new surcoat – Considering that I have approximately $110.00 in material invested thus far (linen, silk and bias tape) I am inclined to agree with her, so I am now on a quest for a seamstress/tailor which won’t be an easy task especially since my first foray into that particular outsourced services was a royal PITA! :-\
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Maybe we'll have to have you talk to my wonderful seamstress who made my nobles. I don't know what her schedule is like, but I'm sure she'd do an amazing job on it.
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Really? Well she does magnificent work! Are they going to be there Sunday?
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I'm guessing they'll be there this weekend. I don't remember them mentioning any other plans. I don't know how much she'll charge. If you have the material, it would just be labor. You'd have to work it out with her.
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Are you guys going this weekend?
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Are you guys going this weekend?
Still figuring that out. The weather looks great, but we also haven't taken a weekend off from faire since the MDRF season started. I'll know soon.
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I'll be there Sunday...going Teutonic while my wife will wear her German frauline garb. :)
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One of my coworkers is gonna be there on Sunday; seems one of her friends is debuting for the first time as part of the cast so she's going to support her girl. Not sure if I wanna go as a Crusader, Templar or a knight-errant. That last one just means I have no charge, no coat of arms. Yet. Or a shield...need a shield for that one too.
It really gets costly when you start adding in multiple personae, doesn't it? lol
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Hehe, yeah, that's why I didn't keep up with my Templar stuff and just focused on my own colors and heraldry. It's more personal, and keeps it "simple" to just have one set of details to worry about. But that all expands out again when you get more than one kit from different points in time.
I'm still not sure if we'll be there this weekend, since we didn't get a chance to talk about it last night. I'm shooting for Sunday, but just not sure yet.
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It really gets costly when you start adding in multiple personae, doesn't it? lol
HAH tell me about it
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Well, my wife mentioned going this weekend...as its gonna be warmer tomorrow (80s) I might opt for a Sunday outing, if at all. Barring that, will definitely be there for 10/16.
I made the Templar gear more than it should've been...it could've been simple with a hauberk and (maybe) chausses. I really got the plate parts for my next year's persona (was supposed to be THIS year but funds ran short prior to season's start so...) so I'm looking fwd to completing that.
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Well here is a couple of pictures of my new shield with my CoA...first coat of paint on the charges.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/My%20Kit/NewShield_1.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/My%20Kit/NewShield_2.jpg)
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Looking good! I can't wait to see it all together with a new surcoat. :)
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Awesome Brian!
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Sweeeet!
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Did you debut the new shield at MDRF over the weekend, or are you waiting until the surcoat's done?
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No I'm waiting for the new surcoat and the new helm to be done first. I still have a second coat of paint to put on the charges and then seal the paint before the shield is ready for the public anyways.
;)
Of course I'm still kicking around the idea of adding scales to my aventail whenever that arrives! :-\
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Have you tried Blazoning it yet? I forget. :)
I was thinking it might be something along the lines of Vert, a griffin segreant or, on a chief wavy argent a rose to dexter sable.
The rose would be "to dexter" I think, because plants are assumed to be upright (as are swords and weapons).
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Vert, a gryphon or segreant. On a chief wavy argent, a rose sable.
Ah that's right, you did blazon it earlier in the thread. "Segreant" should come before "or" since the color is last. You might be able to leave out the "to dexter" I added in my previous post, since the chief itself is horizontal. It's amazing how complex this stuff can get. :)
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Ok the blazon program confirmed my blazonry skills are sadly lacking! The program blazoned my new COA as follows: :-[
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent, a rose Sable, a Gryphon Segreant Or
Yeah I posted a follow up after I used that blazon program you linked me to and you are right that is puts the color last and YES this heraldry stuff can easily become convoluted! :D
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Sir Brian, love the new shield, looking forward to seeing matching helm and surcoat! So what's everyone else coming with NEXT year? Anything new?
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Next year I'll debut my first kit. New for me so it should be a lot of fun.
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woohoo. post progress ;) ask questions ;)
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New to you = new to all of us as we haven't seen it yet! And yes, post progress pics, those are always fun. I probably should do the same but I assembled most of my kit before I had the good sense to become a member here.
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I know that this is late, but here is my Coat of Arms in which I penned my Title: "Knight of The Lion Blade"
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1484064721050&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1484064721050&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater)
The Coat of Arms was created via inkwellideas.com
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The idea came from this shield that I found on this website during my earlier harness searches
http://www.swordsandarmor.com/mall/shields-custom-crests.htm (http://www.swordsandarmor.com/mall/shields-custom-crests.htm)
(http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/Custom_Shields/Gold_Lions.jpg)
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I know that this is late, but here is my Coat of Arms in which I penned my Title: "Knight of The Lion Blade"
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1484064721050&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1484064721050&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater)
The Coat of Arms was created via inkwellideas.com
Nice. I think I'd blazon it like this: "Sable, between two lions combatant Or, a sword Or"
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Shouldn't there be some kind of reference to the claws and tongue being gules?
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Shouldn't there be some kind of reference to the claws and tongue being gules?
I was thinking more of the one he drew rather than the photo, which had them entirely Or. But you're right, in the photo you could include something like "langued and armed gules", though the tongue being red is usually just assumed if not specified.
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I know that this is late, but here is my Coat of Arms in which I penned my Title: "Knight of The Lion Blade"
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1484064721050&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1484064721050&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater)
The Coat of Arms was created via inkwellideas.com
I like it! That looks similar to my old, old arms I had drawn up. I had two lions in the same position, gold on black, except with a castle in the middle. Then I changed to 3 lions rampant, but it seemed to common for period royalty, so I added the chevron.
The fun part is finding someone to do complex COA for embroidery and such. :)
Shouldn't there be some kind of reference to the claws and tongue being gules?
Good question. My lions are all white, but I don't have anything specified for the color of the claws and tongue. I posted on the AA for heraldric advice on how to phrase it, since I don't know the details of how it would be said.
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Good question. My lions are all white, but I don't have anything specified for the color of the claws and tongue. I posted on the AA for heraldric advice on how to phrase it, since I don't know the details of how it would be said.
It looks like we posted at the same time (to the second). :) See above. If red, you can just leave it out. If they're the same color as the entire charge, then technically you can leave it out too. You really only need to include it if you're trying to be very specific, or they have a non-standard color or otherwise differ from the body.
EDIT: There are a lot of details that can be left out if they're not significant. For instance, if you have three of the same charge, it's not uncommon to leave out their arrangement altogether if they're in a triangular arrangement that just fits, such as around a chevron. But it's possible to specify these sorts of things in excruciating detail if necessary. (see here for sample arrangements: http://www.gamedecor.com/abasworld/heraldry/orientation.htm (http://www.gamedecor.com/abasworld/heraldry/orientation.htm)). It's also customary to leave out details if they're the assumed "default" details, for example in the case above, swords are assumed to be pointing upward.
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In the first version of my COA, the claws and tongue were red. However when I redid on ink well ideas, I was content of letting the lions be completely Or.
"Sable, between two lions combatant Or, a sword Or"
Yep, that would be it! Thank you!
Let me ask you Brethren on what can you make out in terms of the symbolism in this device?
The clue is that it involves the relationship between Two famous Virtues? What are they?
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The clue is that it involves the relationship between Two famous Virtues? What are they?
I guess that depends a lot on what you want it to mean. :) The lion frequently symbolizes courage or strength, and the sword is often associated with justice or honor.
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OK, I will tell the answer: Two Lions symbolize Brotherhood or the relationship between Father and Son. Or it can symbolize the relationship between Honor and Courage, Valor and Humility or Truth and Justice. Two Lions facing one sword can symbolize Chivalry (as the Code) and Knighthood (the mannerism of a Knight) serving or protecting the Sword of Justice from evil influences or serving the Cause of Justice and Freedom. This is just my interpretation of my COA.
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cool.
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Now let me ask you all, which one looks better. I am starting to get a bit tired of the black fur and decided to try something new.
Gules, between two lions combatant Or, sword Or
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1565288191586&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1565288191586&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater)
or the former Sable, between two lions combatant Or, sword Or.
What do you think about this brethren?
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Wow, that's a tough call. I have to say, the gold over red is quite striking. I sometimes think we rely on black a little too much. It looks great, but it gets used a lot. It's nice to see some bright colors put to use too. We have to remember that our historical brethren really liked their bright colors.
So personally, my vote would be for Gules and Or, but they both look great.
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Ditto. I like the gules and or. Of course you could also have the sword argent. :)
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The red over gold definitely "pops" more. It's a "royalty" sort of color combo.
I think it would be "Gules, a Sword between two lions combatant Or" as the heraldic text, if the lions and sword are both gold.
I like Sir Brian's idea of differentiating the sword with an alternate color.
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i really like the red one
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Of course I have to vote for the red one! ;)
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Of course I have to vote for the red one! Wink
That has made my morning! lol!
Anyway, thank you everyone for your thoughts and ideas. Here is the updated COA with the Sword Argent.
"Gules, Sword Argent in between two Lions combatant Or."
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1566756388290&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1566756388290&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater)
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That looks pretty good too. Another option is to make it a "sword proper" which would have an argent blade, but the hilt would be more natural colors.
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Here is the same COA with a "sword proper"
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1567546608045&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1567546608045&set=a.1259735752966.33079.1816843454&type=1&theater)
I tried making the handle a brown color but I figured that a gold handle would look classic!
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Yep I think you've got a winner there! :)
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Yep I think you've got a winner there! :)
Yep, I like it too!
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Well I'm late I see but I prefer the red one as well.