ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Thorsteinn on 2012-06-19, 18:54:20
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Swordfighting: Not What You Think It Is by John Clement (http://io9.com/5918644/swordfighting-not-what-you-think-it-is?utm_campaign=socialflow_io9_facebook&utm_source=io9_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)
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What a horrible article.
How many times in the last decade and a half has he been challenged to prove his mettle and answer for his words only to have him be off with some piss poor excuse?
Can anyone remember the last time he fought a resisting opponent not of his tradition at something resembling full speed & power?
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Something that will make you even more irritated is that when he says "pretentious historical role-playing societies", or something like that, he's usually referring to the SCA. Otherwise his article starts off telling the truth, just with that sort of snide implication that he always carries, of him being right, and the rest of the world automatically being wrong, by virtue of the fact that they're not him.
As you correctly point out, he's isolated himself from the rest of the WMA/HEMA community, and vanishes when anyone challenges him to back up or prove his points. The problem with this, is that when he's right, it's still hard to take him seriously. I feel that he expects his name and number of years invested in the subject to be enough to maintain his academic integrity, but it's this sort of isolationism, single-minded interpretation, and use of derogatory attitudes to put everyone else down in nearly everything he writes that really damage his credibility. So he only comes off as credible to those outside the community and don't know any better.
This article is written in his typical way. Instead of taking the opportunity to truly teach you something, instead it seems to carry the goal of being self-aggrandizing, and diminishing to everyone else. I mean really, what was the point of completely digressing into this:
Despite the many people now claiming to be studying the historical teachings on Medieval and Renaissance swordsmanship, in their practices the majority invariably don't employ the correct postures, don't use the proper movements, don't apply the central tenets, and instead typically reduce it all down to adolescent sword-tagging games.
Really? The whole community is doing "adolescent sword-tagging"?
Realistically, I know he's very skilled and athletic, and would probably mop the floor with me in a fight. But that doesn't mean that they way the rest of the community (a community he used to be involved in and has now vanished from) is reconstructing things wrongly. Quite the opposite, I think, since I've seen over just the last 5 years all sorts of really wonderful things get discovered and interpreted better. Things which he's made statements about in other articles, and the rest of the community has had some VERY good rebuttals for.
Some of his students will defend him and argue endlessly on the forum. And frequently when they're trying to pick apart some other group's interpretation, they'll look at photos and videos of a beginner student as their example, or something that doesn't even relate to the point they're making. That part I find sickening.
Despite his skills and knowledge, I have a hard time reading his articles without getting really, really mad, just because of the attitude. He thinks he's the only authority, and he's not. No humility whatsoever.
He makes valid points about TV, movies, and stage shows (ignoring the fact that they're meant to be entertaining, not educational). But it's really disingenuous to lump the rest of HEMA, WMA, and SCA into that.
/rant.
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Crap, Sir Edward ninja'd me again and pretty much covered what I was going to write and lots more, but I'll post anyways since I went to all that trouble to dust off my Thesaurus. ;)
I thought the article started off well enough but then the author's narcissism inevitably took over and rapidly descended into a maelstrom of utter rubbish mixed with equal parts of self glorification and petty condescension to any potential difference of opinion. All in all it is sad that someone who has invested so much time and effort lacks the basic social skills and honor to convey his knowledge to others without such a horrendously bitter aftertaste.
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I just read that article...when he gets to describing his background and history, it almost read like- "oh, look at me, I'm teh awesome" - although I'll admit to being somewhat biased since I've heard his name before, but nothing good in association with it, beyond the years he's studied the craft. His arrogance offends me.
I will admit, however- he makes some very salient points...none of us live in a world where you could be put to the sword at a moment's notice, we don't fear for our lives in that manner. Nuclear holocaust, foreign invasion (which is currently happening now even if no one's noticed, but that's for another topic), auto accident, terminal disease- yes. By the sword? Very unlikely. So it takes away the need to know aspect and becomes a pursuit of personal desire...I'm inclined to agree with him that the lack of life or death means most of us won't be as good as our forebears, if only because it isn't required knowledge in order to help stay alive. With that said, there are always instances and flashes of greatness that occur despite the odds or the current climate.
If living (and dying) by the sword were to ever be realized due to some malfunction of technology and weapons (say gunpowder no longer worked, I know someone somewhere's wrote a book delineating such a scenario) then I believe we'd see some truly remarkable swordsmen come about, and it might not be from where you'd think...but until that happens, all of us who strive to recreate what is essentially a dead art are simply students of the sword, as the masters died hundreds of years ago and left behind NO HOW-TO VIDEOS.
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Same old, same old. Some people will never change. :(
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He's no Mike Loades, Gemini Asonte, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler, Ken Mondshein, or Toby Capwell.
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Since everyone so elegantly covered this, I'll paraphrase by saying something my dad likes to say. "Same ****, different bucket."
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Everyone here has eloquently said what I had in mind while this trashy article. Here are a few extra points I had in mind.
What makes him so important that he has to take an elitist stance that everyone is an amatuer except him? What about the contributions made Gregory Mele? Christian Tobler? Ken Mondshein? Tom Leoni? Is he saying that their contributions to the HEMA Community are garbage? If so what contributions has he made so far besides repeating himself?
How skilled is he? I imagine that he is exceptionally skilled but is he skilled to prove his teaching are better than any other instructors? I need to see it to believe it. Or better get him to fight against me and I will show how skilled he is. (Pun intended) But really how skilled is he? I would like to see how he would fare against someone like Jake Norwood or Guy Windsor. That would be awesome.
Last point: YOU SON OF A GUN, HOW DARE YOU BAD MOUTH THE COMMUNITY! >:( Now I am pissed, you mean to tell us that we are a bunch of loosers while we have done more accurate research than you have and formed better interpretations of combat techniques than you who swears that your method is better than ours In short: WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE! >:(
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Well, my last vestiges of respect for ARMA or John Clements have been officially destroyed (as if the rapier stab to the groin video wasn't enough ::)) I swear, all I heard from what was
"I'm a pretentious D-Bag! I think I'm better than everyone else! I could defeat you all, but I won't accept any fights because I'm obviously that much better! Grrrrrrr!!!!! Watch me defeat more of my own students!"
Yeah, he raises a god point, that we don't live or die by the sword, but neither does he and his students. And I seriously doubt anyone trains exactly like and with the time and dedication of a knight in period, or a swordmaster of the period. It's not like his students are forced to quit their day job and go live and train in the secret douche-colony of John Clements to train for hours every single day unceasingly! Or maybe he should follow through on some of his claims and actually make his students and himself live or die by the sword and use sharps. Then hopefully he'd get a debilitating injury and we wouldn't have to listen to his stupid rants..... 8)
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I would like to see how he would fare against someone like Jake Norwood or Guy Windsor. That would be awesome.
Actually Jake Norwood used to be an ARMA student. Until he saw the light, and realized there's a much wider world out there. Now Jake's a valuable member of the rest of the HEMA world, with a lot to contribute. I know we're all glad to have him.
Or maybe he should follow through on some of his claims and actually make his students and himself live or die by the sword and use sharps. Then hopefully he'd get a debilitating injury and we wouldn't have to listen to his stupid rants..... 8)
Somewhere there's a video of him and one of his "inner circle" dudes fighting with sharps. They're keeping it pretty controlled and careful... and yet... Seriously? Accidents happen. I don't think I'd trust myself well enough, let alone anyone else, to keep it safe for that.
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I would like to see how he would fare against someone like Jake Norwood or Guy Windsor. That would be awesome.
Actually Jake Norwood used to be one of his students. Until he saw the light, and realized there's a much wider world out there. Now Jake's a valuable member of the rest of the HEMA world, with a lot to contribute. I know we're all glad to have him.
Which gives me hope for others who are still training with John. Although I only met Jake twice and attended one training session at his school as a sort of 'exchange' student with a couple of other MASHS students, he impressed me not only with his infallible manners but his extremely humble yet skilled instruction.
Or maybe he should follow through on some of his claims and actually make his students and himself live or die by the sword and use sharps. Then hopefully he'd get a debilitating injury and we wouldn't have to listen to his stupid rants..... 8)
Somewhere there's a video of him and one of his "inner circle" dudes fighting with sharps. They're keeping it pretty controlled and careful... and yet... Seriously? Accidents happen. I don't think I'd trust myself well enough, let alone anyone else, to keep it safe for that.
Boy o’ boy that just exudes a total John Kreese (Sensei of Cobra Kai) mentality which is infantile at best. Total nut-jobs like him are truly a danger not only to themselves but to anyone else foolish enough to train with them as well as poor examples of the art to the uninformed. ::)
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I'm searching to see if I can find the video with the sharps, and no luck yet. Though here's one with JC and one of his other guys doing a fight with blunts, and no face or hand protection. :)
http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23405 (http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23405)
For reference, this is the sort of thing that can go wrong with sharps (see attached image). Supposedly this injury was done by a student to himself when missing a static cutting target. I'm not sure who it was, it was mentioned on myArmoury.
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Clements has ~30 years of experience, has been a consultant on a number of things, has had access to original manuscripts that 99% of us will never get to see or touch, and, having taken a class with him in person ... he's a really motivated, energetic, good teacher. Because of that, the saddest part of the article, to me, is that he persists in his 'holier than thou' attitude; and if he'd just step off his pedestal, he could have some great contributions to the community. >:(
And ... Ick! That picture still strikes fear in me every time, since I first saw it! I'm going to ramble for a minute, since it's an important topic. The picture is from here:
http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sword-fighting.html (http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sword-fighting.html)
(scroll down to 'ONE FINAL WORD ON SWORD SAFETY')
This injury was caused by a Gladius sword that cut right through the target and kept going, biting deep into the cutters leg and causing him to lose 6 pints of blood and requiring 66 stiches and emergency surgery...
Swords are not toys. So please, for your own sake AT THE VERY LEAST, read the ebook and watch the video to avoid this kind of thing happening to you...
For anyone who doubts that swords can't cause brutal injuries just because we live in an 'advanced age' compared to the 'medieval muck-dwellers' ... stare at that picture, and think about 66 stitches and losing 6 pints of blood. We're around swords a lot, and we have to be vigilant to not become too 'used to it', and we must treat them with the respect they deserve. If we don't, we start to gamble, literally, with limbs and lives.
For reference, average male adults have 10-12 pints of blood, so you're talking 50% or higher blood loss.... safety, respect, and more safety!
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I have not taken much umbrage from John's words, if only because I don't know the man personally and he doesn't know me...I'm nothing special, just not of a mind to take offense when he is clearly not referring to me, or you guys.
As flagrant as his self-worship is, he does make some salient points...sword fighting is NOT what most people think it is, he's right about that. 99% of the world-at-large thinks swordfighting is what we've seen on the big screen, swashbuckling, gung-ho, balletic even, if that's a word. Sounds right. In any case...he has a point; I don't agree with casting broad aspersions as he does- it seems to me that he writes from a stance of aggravation...maybe some onlooker or budding student expressed some form of derision at what he considers his life's work. Since I can fully understand not being understood, I'd be willing to give him a pass on that one. That might not be the case...and if it is not, so be it. He is one man among many...he might even be the best, but there will come one who can best him, that is part of the natural order of things. Except for Bruce Lee...none could stand him, you'll not tell me different! ;)
I inject a little levity to say this- none of us should take ownership for his snide comments to the sword community at-large, it simply does not apply to us. To varying degrees, everyone here has an understanding of the sword, its history, its allure and its lethality. We're also human, so we're prone to mistakes, misplaced bravado (at least in my case), but these are things that can be remedied with time, study and application.
I do dumb stuff from time to time...sometimes, I'm aware even when doing it; it is a personality issue with me, I'm imperfect and I know it. I also know that I could probably learn a lot from this man, if I could just get past his massive ego- but who cares, I'm not interested and his rant is just one of many that can be found on any given subject on the Internet. Dump it and move on.
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http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sword-fighting.html (http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sword-fighting.html)
(scroll down to 'ONE FINAL WORD ON SWORD SAFETY')
This injury was caused by a Gladius sword that cut right through the target and kept going, biting deep into the cutters leg and causing him to lose 6 pints of blood and requiring 66 stiches and emergency surgery...
Swords are not toys. So please, for your own sake AT THE VERY LEAST, read the ebook and watch the video to avoid this kind of thing happening to you...
For anyone who doubts that swords can't cause brutal injuries just because we live in an 'advanced age' compared to the 'medieval muck-dwellers' ... stare at that picture, and think about 66 stitches and losing 6 pints of blood. We're around swords a lot, and we have to be vigilant to not become too 'used to it', and we must treat them with the respect they deserve. If we don't, we start to gamble, literally, with limbs and lives.
For reference, average male adults have 10-12 pints of blood, so you're talking 50% or higher blood loss.... safety, respect, and more safety!
And then think that the sword that dealt that blow was a gladius, a sword not optimized for cutting, and the person cut himself (assuming from that that he tried to slow down, or at least had an extremely awkward cut). Also, it was the lower leg, one of the not so freakishly lethal areas of the body. Imagine if it was a longsword, or say John clements' life-risking sharp duel went wrong? Cuts actually made at another person, with good form, to the torso, or God forbid, the neck. The potential for insta-death/maim in a longsword duel with sharps is enormous, and could met out blows to make that horrific cut look tame!
Sir William, we take offence because we DO consider ourselves part of the community at large of which he accuses of playing "adolescent sword-tagging games" I personally can attest that the efficiency of the fighters we train with, learn from, and watch prove itself to be far beyond "adolescent sword-tagging games"
I recognize that he does have skill, resources, is reasonably intelligent, has experience, and has teaching ability. That's honestly the worst part, that he should know better, and probably has much to contribute, if he'd just get off the high horse and talk to people.
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I inject a little levity to say this- none of us should take ownership for his snide comments to the sword community at-large, it simply does not apply to us.
This is the most important thing to remember with this. Having sat at lunch with John Clements and a hand full of his students for an hour or so, back in 2009 or 2010, he is not nearly as abrasive in person as he comes off to be online, and his frustration goes well beyond the WMA community and out into the general populace, Hollywood and all. While he will take pot-shots at the SCA and other WMA groups around almost every corner, the majority of his ire was directed at people who think and perpetrate the notion that medieval combat was like two cavemen slowly banging clubs together while drooling on each other and pooping themselves at the same time.
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That may be true, but boy, whenever he writes, he spends half the article taking shots at everyone else and displaying unending levels of arrogance. A lot of people come off differently in person than they do in their writing, but you'd think that when writing online, you would want to be as credible as possible. To me, when it's dripping with attitude, the credibility goes out the window.
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I feel the same way. IMO it's more forgivable to come off as some guy with attitude in speech than one's writing. when writing you have to deliberately consider everything twice (thinking it out, and then writing it down), as opposed to speaking, where if a person lacks tact they can spew off every little thing that enters their brain. He had to take a look at what he wrote, and say "Yes, this is the message I want the public to see."
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That may be true, but boy, whenever he writes, he spends half the article taking shots at everyone else and displaying unending levels of arrogance. A lot of people come off differently in person than they do in their writing, but you'd think that when writing online, you would want to be as credible as possible. To me, when it's dripping with attitude, the credibility goes out the window.
Oh, absolutely, he's a ****** of the highest level online. No disagreement there. :) Just speaking from an "offline" perspective. In person, he lost my interest when he said 'what is learned in the ARMA circle, stays in the ARMA circle, and thou shalt have no other teachers', before I had even taken any other WMA classes/events - which is a shame, because there's an ARMA group ~20 minutes from me, vs the ~75 minutes to VAF (the closest other WMA group) - but I won't support their attitude.
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Maybe it's just me but it looks like some medieval variation of any of the "Jackass" movie sequels. Just saying. ::)
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Sword wounds. The thing that will strike fear into an enthusiast.
Yep, sharp swords can cause significant damage to the body and increase the risk of death. The proof is the swords by their weight alone is enough to cut and puncture the flesh without using any power. You have to take into consideration that anything sharp will be used with inertia, power and direction, multiply those time the amount of power you throw into a cut, slice or thrust you will create significant damage. This is why unarmored longsword fighting focuses on the Four Openings because arm or leg wounds will be staggering or incapacitating wounds. Torso hits, heat cuts, and opened intestines are killing blows.
But people can be idiots by trying to get away bouting with sharps. They will need an ambulance on the spot.
John Clements to me is a good fighter (although I am a bit skeptical of his martial prowess) but one arrogant individual who thinks he ha sit all because he thinks like a fighter and a scholar at the same time. He can't even cite his resources as much as give physical proof as to why edge to edge contact must be avoided. I believe his credibility is already gone and he is desperate to get it back by using articles.
If you want to see actual drills using sharps in a safe but elegant manner, here it is:
Basic drills with sharps.mov (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWNi3BHkrB4#ws)
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Sir Joshua, if you strike another sword's edge with your own, depending on the strength of that strike, you can nick or even fold the edge if it is razor sharp. I don't think you need to cite resource or demonstrate it for it is widely known, or should be. As for his credibility, whether or not he can actually fight with a sword is one thing, but I do not consider his contributions or knowledge to be of little value, quite the contrary.
What I, and everyone else it seems take issue with is his attitude. Unfortunately, that is a personal shortcoming that he needs to work on, no one can alter that for him. FWIW, I can understand where he's coming from- let us assume for the nonce that this is in fact his life's work and he treats it with the honor and gravitas one should for his/her life's work - thinking about your own, or my own, how irritated would you get if, despite your best attempts, the world at-large remained ignorant of your contributions and intellect, opting instead to continue holding onto ill-conceived, even downright wrong notions about what it is you or I do? Not as in the hobby it is for most of us, but your life's work, the road less travelled, the one thing you do that sparks your creativity, your love of your craft- your very reason for being?
Now, I'm only playing devil's advocate, I'm not condoning his attitude or even suggesting he has the right of it (he has a right to feel however the hell he wants to, but he does not have a right to expect that all others must accept it w/out reserve), only suggesting there may be more to it than what we read in the article, or articles that he's written in the past.
Also, those drills you posted are not inherently safe. Safer than two unknowns fencing, yes, as these two seem to know one another and share a mutual trust- but the only safety equipment I see are their helmets, and the fact that they are moving very slowly- even so, one slip by either fencer and you're looking at a potential ER visit. Even with full armor and padding, injuries can occur with sharps. No, I would not advocate practicing in that manner. Let them armor up- then they're safer.
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Also, those drills you posted are not inherently safe. Safer than two unknowns fencing, yes, as these two seem to know one another and share a mutual trust- but the only safety equipment I see are their helmets, and the fact that they are moving very slowly- even so, one slip by either fencer and you're looking at a potential ER visit. Even with full armor and padding, injuries can occur with sharps. No, I would not advocate practicing in that manner. Let them armor up- then they're safer.
Agreed. I'll go so far as to say there is *never* a "safe way" to practice with sharps with another person. There is "safeR", but the only time, IMO, sharps should ever be used, is for solo cutting (or zombie apocalypse...). There's no reason whatsoever to put life and limb at risk by using sharps when trainers are safer and available, regardless of skill or lack of skill, accidents can happen, and using sharps proves a lack of concern for yourself and others, rather than courage or bravery. I can go stand in traffic knowing that most people will swerve to avoid me, and bank my odds until I do get hit by someone not paying attention or who doesn't see me ... and in that case too, it's not bravery, it's hedging a bet until I lose, and with nothing to gain.
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Agreed.
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Sir Joshua, if you strike another sword's edge with your own, depending on the strength of that strike, you can nick or even fold the edge if it is razor sharp. I don't think you need to cite resource or demonstrate it for it is widely known, or should be. As for his credibility, whether or not he can actually fight with a sword is one thing, but I do not consider his contributions or knowledge to be of little value, quite the contrary.
What I, and everyone else it seems take issue with is his attitude. Unfortunately, that is a personal shortcoming that he needs to work on, no one can alter that for him. FWIW, I can understand where he's coming from- let us assume for the nonce that this is in fact his life's work and he treats it with the honor and gravitas one should for his/her life's work - thinking about your own, or my own, how irritated would you get if, despite your best attempts, the world at-large remained ignorant of your contributions and intellect, opting instead to continue holding onto ill-conceived, even downright wrong notions about what it is you or I do? Not as in the hobby it is for most of us, but your life's work, the road less travelled, the one thing you do that sparks your creativity, your love of your craft- your very reason for being?
Now, I'm only playing devil's advocate, I'm not condoning his attitude or even suggesting he has the right of it (he has a right to feel however the hell he wants to, but he does not have a right to expect that all others must accept it w/out reserve), only suggesting there may be more to it than what we read in the article, or articles that he's written in the past.
Point taken Sir William. Concerning the video, I would blame Guy Windsor for having the idea of drilling with sharps but I think that with what you and Sir James said, you are correct in that regard but also I think it is a nice idea to drill using sharps. It gives us a reality check and can be a bridge to reconstructing the Art used in real life. Mutual trust and severe caution are always taken into consideration.
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Guy Windsor and his caliber of instructors are probably the only ones I'd trust to do this. You can see in his video that he kept it really low-key. They knew what each other were doing at all times, and the moves were slow and without power. The only reason to use sharps in a drill is to see how a real sword behaves differently in the bind as compared to a blunt. The difference is subtle, but real.
It's a valuable exercise if you can do it safely enough (I still think in that video they're crazy for not having hand protection and for showing that much bare skin, but at least they have the masks). But the key is to keep it really slow and controlled, with no surprises.
Under most circumstances, the sharps are a really bad idea. And it's just dumb to use them at any kind of speed.
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I can't fall asleep so I'm perusing the forums. I met Mr. Clements in 2005. I also back then signed up for ARMA. At the time, I knew little about the SCA or other groups. I just happened to bump into him, literally at a ren-faire, we started talking so I thought to join.
After taking advantage of ARMA's extensive resources and library I left that group in 2007. I basically got tired of the "our way is the only way" kind of attitude. Also, of note, I wasn't anywhere where I could practice with them unfortunately, I was on my own. In 2010, I learned the past of Mr. Clements and his relationship with the SCA, or as far as their perspective of it.
Personally, I think there is a lot out there that is wrong, and it's true. But, there's also a lot out there, both recent developments and much older stuff, that isn't wrong and is in fact quite good. We're all trying to interpret something that may have one picture, or two, snapshots if you will, of a full movement. Try and imagine if there were individual frames, like for animation, of those movements instead? It would be amazing, and far easier for everyone to see something more similar. But as far as I'm concerned, there are schools today, as there were hundreds of years ago. And I must say, one of the things I enjoy, is that today it seems, no one for the most part, except Mr. Clements, says their way is the only way! When I checked out the SCA for four months, three days a week training for minimum four hours a day, I really enjoyed how I could show them my stuff, and although they were quite persuasive about how they did it, allowed me to at least show mine.
Beyond that, I too have a problem with a lack of respect towards the weapon. That has been a pet peeve of mine since I was little, and needless to say in this group, I don't think I need to extrapolate on the gory details of what scarred me. It saddens and scares me that people can get lax. It doesn't matter if it's a police officer with their sidearm, a Marine and his rifle, or a SCAdian with a "stick." All can kill and maim and we need to respect them as such. Usually if I see that kind of disrespect towards that particular weapon, I don't practice with them anymore, be it at a range, the desert, or on a tournament field.
It saddens me that Mr. Clements has gotten this elitist sort of viewpoint because I know he's a treasure-trove of knowledge. The fact remains though, we weren't there to witness it. We don't have recordings (and how often to people call "foul" in a baseball game or football game with video devices!?) all we have is our passions and their artifacts. Everything else has come from that, and we all can do so much more if we work together.
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He's no Mike Loades, Gemini Asonte, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler, Ken Mondshein, or Toby Capwell.
You forgot Bob Charon.
If someone needs to tear someone else down in order to feel better about themselves, they are a 't**d in a punchbowl'.
I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules ;D
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).
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If someone needs to tear someone else down in order to feel better about themselves, they are a 't**d in a punchbowl'.
vs.
I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules ;D
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).
Isn't that the same thing?
What purpose would John Clements fighting anyone with BotN rules serve? BotN and Armored Combat League have virtually nothing to do with the historical technique of Liechtenauer or Fiore, or anything from our past for that matter. It's just a brawl in armor using swords as clubs. Sure it's a tough sport, and cool to watch, but it has nothing to do with the techniques people like John Clements, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler etc are interested in reviving. You just want to see someone get beat up, isn't that the same as bringing someone else down to feel better about oneself?
John Clements can be very abrasive. That's his personality, but to pretend like he's not a good swordsman is denying a fact staring everyone in the face. He just seems to be the guy who likes to take his ball and go home if others don't see things his way, but his accomplishments in the world of historical swordsmanship cannot be overlooked.
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Yeah!!! Medieval hockey baby!! I feel the urge to check someone into a wall & clock them with a stick. ;D
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If someone needs to tear someone else down in order to feel better about themselves, they are a 't**d in a punchbowl'.
vs.
I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules ;D
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).
Isn't that the same thing?
What purpose would John Clements fighting anyone with BotN rules serve? BotN and Armored Combat League have virtually nothing to do with the historical technique of Liechtenauer or Fiore, or anything from our past for that matter. It's just a brawl in armor using swords as clubs. Sure it's a tough sport, and cool to watch, but it has nothing to do with the techniques people like John Clements, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler etc are interested in reviving. You just want to see someone get beat up, isn't that the same as bringing someone else down to feel better about oneself?
John Clements can be very abrasive. That's his personality, but to pretend like he's not a good swordsman is denying a fact staring everyone in the face. He just seems to be the guy who likes to take his ball and go home if others don't see things his way, but his accomplishments in the world of historical swordsmanship cannot be overlooked.
Well stated Sir Ian and absolutely spot on. Nobody can deny that John Clements is passionate and dedicated about his study of the various HEMA disciplines. If we were to compare the HEMA world to the world of Harry Potter, John Clement would be Severus Snape who afterall, was far more than he appeared to be as well as being exceptionally skilled in his craft. ;)
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Well stated Sir Ian and absolutely spot on. Nobody can deny that John Clements is passionate and dedicated about his study of the various HEMA disciplines.
Seconded! Thank you Sir Ian for putting that into perspective.
I may have neglected to mention it in here, but John Clements is the reason that I am even interested in WMA/HEMA at all.
I've long had the interest in medieval armor and weapons, however, the knowledge from that interest all drew from the "typical" sources - Hollywood movies (Excalibur, First Knight, A Knight's Tale, Black Knight, Robin Hood, etc), Renn Faire shows, and choreographed stage combat of "thrust, parry, thrust, parry" or "awkwardly and slowly swinging this sword-thing like a grunting caveman club" (Crude and slow, clansman, crude and slow). Let's just say I had a normal modern-day mindset of medieval combat, and it didn't match up with actual historical manuscripts at all. I had been looking around the internet for any local SCA practices when I found the ARMA forums and there was a thread about Clements coming to do non-SCA "real sword" classes about a half hour from me, so I signed up...
When I met him in person he was not as unruly as he is in most of his writings; he is also extremely passionate and he's very knowledgeable (whether people agree or disagree with his interpretations is another thread). He did smack down on the SCA, which may have been since I mentioned SCA as my only medieval combat experience (he went around the room and had everyone introduce themselves). It could have been because everything he taught about blade handling had nothing to do with the SCA methods, saying a sword is a sword and not a club, he covered binding, etc.
The class with him was the first WMA/HEMA exposure I had at all. From the start I was in awe of how he handled the sword; 15 years of owning them and I had *never* seen such gracefulness *and* aggression. It's hard to match his physical enthusiasm and aggression in some of his videos when compared to others. He noticed that I was behind the others in grasping the basic guards and strikes; it may have helped I was the only one without a red shirt, which I learned later in the day meant I was the only non-ARMA member there. He didn't say "you slow, boy?" or anything to that effect; he paused what he was teaching and asked if I needed help, and showed me what I was doing wrong.
The class was a couple hours (2, maybe 3?) long, although it all felt a blurry whirlwind of excitement. After class was over, they went to lunch there in town (walking distance). I got to go as well, which was a nice gesture as I was the "odd one out" being the only non-member there. Everyone sat around and talked, I wasn't left out of any conversations, and it was pleasant. After lunch we went back, and there was a follow-up class... however at that point it was "the regular class is over" and "ARMA members only" for the after-lunch portion. I was okay with that since it was not advertised as being a two-part class, so I got what I paid for. I was saddened that there was an online process to go through for applying and approval for membership in the group, as it meant I couldn't ask "Can I join you guys?" on the spot (as the founder/main guy was right there). I always wondered what happened at that second part.
I applied online, but never got an acceptance, which I guess is implied rejection. I didn't own an Albion, I had never heard of one, and my only experience was SCA, and I didn't like the "what you learn here stays here" concept of being unable to share things with my brother or friends, so I'm not too shocked I wasn't accepted. After I learned more, it was clear we probably would not have meshed well philosophically.
After that, I went home with a completely new respect for the European style swords. Had I not gone to that class, even though I didn't end up in ARMA, and had I picked up the local SCA fighter practice again, I likely would have been down a far different path than I am now.
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That's the thing, love or hate the guy, he does a lot to gain exposure for the sword-arts at large. He's passionate about it, is very skilled, and it shows. To some degree, we all have him to thank for helping to get historical sword combat into enough of a spotlight that we can actually have a modern resurgence of these arts. He was a pioneer in that regard.
It really comes down to a philosophical difference between his organization and the rest of the HEMA/WMA community (which itself can be further divided at times).
I just wish he didn't spend half the words in his writings disparaging everyone else. Make your point, and let it stand (or not) on its own. If you have to waste your breath disparaging everything else, there's a problem. It's just not necessary.
Because of the closed-door, drink the kool-aid, street-fighter sort of approach he's had lately, ARMA starts to come off as being the Cobra Kai of the HEMA world. Again, it's not really necessary, and it just sequesters them away from everyone else.
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don't make me go all crane front kick to your chin!
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Until he's willing to prove what he knows against a resisting opponent who isn't of his tradition, on camera, he will always come off to me like the Kiai Master in the fight vid below IE the "My Awesomeness is too awesome for you! If I used it on you you would explode from my sheer awesomeness which is why I don't fight".
Kiai Master vs MMA best (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LYnEBDJjVY#)
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My dad can beat up your dad.
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My dog just ate your honor roll student.
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"he's the best, ah-ahhhhhhhh"
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That's the thing, love or hate the guy, he does a lot to gain exposure for the sword-arts at large. He's passionate about it, is very skilled, and it shows. To some degree, we all have him to thank for helping to get historical sword combat into enough of a spotlight that we can actually have a modern resurgence of these arts. He was a pioneer in that regard.
I also like that he, though not very often, posts videos of different aspects and includes demonstrations. I haven't seen that from many other "high tier" teachers. For people like me who don't have anyone else nearby, and are too focused on buying armor to spend lots of money on classes, videos are a great learning tool.
I just wish he didn't spend half the words in his writings disparaging everyone else. Make your point, and let it stand (or not) on its own. If you have to waste your breath disparaging everything else, there's a problem. It's just not necessary.
Agreed, and it's a shame that in all the years of his doing WMA/HEMA, he still continues doing that.
Until he's willing to prove what he knows against a resisting opponent who isn't of his tradition, on camera, he will always come off to me like the Kiai Master in the fight vid below IE the "My Awesomeness is too awesome for you! If I used it on you you would explode from my sheer awesomeness which is why I don't fight".
I used to think that, but it's still just a competition for points or other measurement of "win" vs "lose". It doesn't show who does or doesn't understand what the Masters of history were trying to teach. It doesn't show who is right or wrong. It doesn't show which style is superior or inferior. How do we know the "winner" is right on how they've learned, and using an inferior style, but still "won"? A superior fighter with an inferior style can still win. What does that mean to the Art?
Unless two people are fighting each other using sharps with full intent to break bones and/or kill one another, it doesn't prove anything. I'd rather we have more WMA/HEMA teachers, than less. :)
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We had a guest at MASHS yesterday and he was from Southern California where he is part of the KRON Martial Arts - HEMA schools. His name is Myles Cupp and he was very gracious and skilled with the longsword, as well as the rapier. He is in our region to attend the Longpoint Tournament next weekend and found the MASHS website and trained with us for the day. We all welcomed him and really enjoyed training with someone we never fought with before. As I said he was very skilled with the longsword but we also got him to try the French Small sword and the Saber. Which brings me to the point that whenever the HEMA/WMA community loses this passion to resurrect these lost martial arts then that will probably be the day I stop because as fun as it all is the most exciting thing about this type of training is being a part of this great rediscovery! ;)
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Kiai Master vs MMA best (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LYnEBDJjVY#)
What the hell is a Kiai master? It looked like he missed most of his 'blows' - that one guy who was flopping about like a fish was most comical. He looked almost surprised when he got hit the first time...can only imagine he was quite nonplussed when the next several shots connected and put him down. Question is- how many of his students remained after that?
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A bit like this dude I suspect.
Phony Karate Master - No Touch KO Debunked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0#)
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A bit like this dude I suspect.
Phony Karate Master - No Touch KO Debunked]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0#]Phony Karate Master - No Touch KO Debunked (http://[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0#)[/url]
Naruto and DragonBallZ aren't real!?!?
*stomping off in a temper tantrum*
I believe that's apples to oranges in regards to Clements vs Anyone, though.
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I believe that's apples to oranges in regards to Clements vs Anyone, though.
Precisely. John Clements doesn't claim to use magic like those idiots. Even then, it's not like the heads of various martial arts schools go around challenging each other Mortal Kombat style, to see who's kung fu is strongest... Stuff like that is straight out of a movie. I think it's a bit silly to expect John Clements to have to fight some WMA person from another organization to prove himself. He's done that already through meticulous research, handling of original artifacts and manuscripts etc...
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I think it's a bit silly to expect John Clements to have to fight some WMA person from another organization to prove himself. He's done that already through meticulous research, handling of original artifacts and manuscripts etc...
I disagree. All the research and handling of original artifacts in the world does not necessarily translate to skill in the practical application. And that various so-called masters no longer participate in contests, well, I can't honestly say that's such a great thing. For one, you could hardly call yourself the best if you've gone largely unchallenged by worthy opponents- beating up on your students only proves you can beat them.
I used to be a huge Bruce Lee fan, well, I still am, just not so rabid with it- but he was challenged pretty regularly early in his career because no one believed he could be that good. Except he was, and he'd proven it time and again. I'm sure if I did some research, I'd find other masters of their respective craft doing the same.
I guess what I'm saying is, why shouldn't they?
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For one, you could hardly call yourself the best if you've gone largely unchallenged by worthy opponents- beating up on your students only proves you can beat them.
Shhhhhh, Charlie Andrews will hear you. :D
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LOL @ the Andrews reference
Yea...you get me.
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Because John Clements is not saying he can beat everyone in the world in a sword fight like those stupid chi ball fools. He's not claiming that at all, no one in WMA is claiming they're the ones who can beat everyone else. It's about understanding a lost art, not about who can beat who at it. The whole point of HEMA/WMA is to figure out what the masters were teaching in the 14th/15th centuries and understand it. It's a quest for knowledge and the practical application of that knowledge. Fighting one another is how we begin to understand. It's the process by which we unlock the mysteries because it reveals how biomechanics play in and what works and what doesn't. Insisting that people fight each other to prove their prowess is misguided bravado that has little to do with the point of this particular martial art in the first place.
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I see your approach to it all, but I don't know if I agree with you Sir Ian; from my POV, the point of any martial art was guided by one underlying principle, regardless of which style you choose to study- to impose your will on your opponent and win. HEMA/WMA, as you say, is to figure out what was taught, what was most effective- but the sole purpose of any of these arts was to best your opponent. Nowadays, we have the luxury of taking up martial arts for any number of reasons- physical fitness, to learn discipline, holistic balance, and/or to defend one's self, or to study a lost art just for the sake of it or purely for sport as it is with most of us here- or any combination you care to come up with; still doesn't take away the original purpose of said art. Also, I might add that the sword was made for but one purpose only- to kill. Axes, maces, hammers, bows, arrows, daggers, knives, quarterstaves- all of these sorts of weapons had other uses, domestic and otherwise; not so with the sword. That people have used it for other than what it was intended changes nothing. And from a sporting perspective, it is always a competition, is it not?
As far as proving one's self goes...since Mr. Clements has given the bird to pretty much anyone outside of his circle, I don't see why someone similarly skilled in another style (or even the same, but from outside said circle) couldn't issue a challenge and have it accepted. Naturally, he need not answer it- that's his choice. However, and this is just my POV but if you're gonna talk the talk, you should also be able to (and willing) to walk the walk.
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But Sir William, HEMA/WMA is not a developed martial art. It is a but a fraction of a once developed martial art. It's a martial art in it's infancy of rebirth. I would agree with you if we were talking about fully developed Eastern Martial Arts where the actual techniques themselves are known, but your proficiency at them is what differs. In HEMA/WMA, it is the very techniques that we are unsure of because no continuous line to the masters exists. Without knowing the techniques, it is difficult to apply the same standards of who is better than who.
Mr. Clements hasn't really given the bird to everyone outside of his circle. I would say he's surely given the bird to the SCA because of how he feels some people within the SCA misrepresent their sport as something historical, and I can't say I blame him there. He actually disagrees on only a few points here and there and on certain techniques within the HEMA/WMA community, most famously, the Krumphau. But he's not the villain everyone outside his circles make him out to be. I would argue that it is the very people who claim we should all work together in peace and harmony who are equally responsible for John Clements being pushed from the rest of the HEMA community.
I don't see anyone clamoring for other HEMA/WMA teachers to go fight people. It's just fun to pile on and hate the 'bad boy' of WMA. I see a lot of hypocrisy within WMA with regards to how ARMA is treated. People get mad at Clements for so vociferously defending his own opinions on techniques by doing the same about their own... And Clements isn't going around saying he can beat every other school in a sword fight, so why is the burden of proof to be laid upon his head? I don't see people yelling and screaming for Christian Tobler to go fight someone to prove what he teaches, or anyone else for that matter.
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JC has said more than once he is one of the best swordsmen on the planet, and that others don't count as Swordsmen because they do not meet his definition of the term, and has said that's why he turned down some challenges because he wasn't being challenged by "Real Swordsmen (tm)". As for Christian Tobler, if you challenged him and offered to pay for his travel and room & board then I bet he'd show up no problem. JC had that chance and blew off the folks at the last minute after initially agreeing to the deal.
So yeah... that's why I think say... Syr Gemini is a better swordsman, martial artist, and chivalrous man than JC ever will. Good example: When he got challenged very formally by a group to his north he went up there and took it up. Heck he even filmed it (see below). He beat the entire group and the head master 10 for 10 on their turf under their rules.
Gemini talks the talk, and walks the walk. He studied the masters and came to his own system that way. He teaches, he fights, he's gone into HEMA & SCA tourneys and won or placed well, and if you challenge him he'll kit up and say "Lets go". He's not alone in this attitude. I bet Jake Norwood, Paul Bellatrix, Axel Peterson, and more would & could show up JC in proving to be more than just words & dance moves.
http://youtu.be/f7nBMezkJgQ?t=4m13s (http://youtu.be/f7nBMezkJgQ?t=4m13s)
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I don't see anyone clamoring for other HEMA/WMA teachers to go fight people. It's just fun to pile on and hate the 'bad boy' of WMA. I see a lot of hypocrisy within WMA with regards to how ARMA is treated. People get mad at Clements for so vociferously defending his own opinions on techniques by doing the same about their own... And Clements isn't going around saying he can beat every other school in a sword fight, so why is the burden of proof to be laid upon his head? I don't see people yelling and screaming for Christian Tobler to go fight someone to prove what he teaches, or anyone else for that matter.
JC has said more than once he is one of the best swordsmen on the planet, and that others don't count as Swordsmen because they do not meet his definition of the term, and has said that's why he turned down some challenges because he wasn't being challenged by "Real Swordsmen (tm)". As for Christian Tobler, if you challenged him and offered to pay for his travel and room & board then I bet he'd show up no problem. JC had that chance and blew off the folks at the last minute after initially agreeing to the deal.
Interesting points here.
While I will agree that JC/ARMA probably does get heaped with an unfair amount of criticism, I still see the fault largely with JC/ARMA, as they have a long history of disparaging other WMA/HEMA practitioners and groups, not showing up for things they agreed to (especially if there was any sort of "honor match" or comparative process involved), self aggrandizing, and so on. When JC claimed to personally be the "rosetta stone" of historical sword fighting, I decided I can't really take him seriously anymore. It's a shame, because I know he's skilled and knowledgeable, but he's destroying his own credibility. He comes off as a complete narcissist.
Certainly, he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. I'm sure he could mop the floor with a lot of the community's instructors, because of his athleticism and how much time he spends training. But he's just one man, so if he and his group believe he's the only one who is "correct", they're limiting themselves unnecessarily.
Again, I don't hate JC/ARMA, I just think it's a shame that they've gone off in this isolationist direction, and there's so much they could have done to avoid that, or still could do to come back into the larger community.
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You make a good point, Sir Ian- it is not yet a fully developed art...who is to say we know half of what we should? With that said, does he really possess the wherewithal to cast aspersions when the truth really isn't fully known? I'm no fan of the SCA or some of its denizens (present company excluded of course) but I'll use them as an example anyway. Speculation being what it is, who is to say that what they do has no basis in history? Its probably the closest thing to a tourney we're like to see this side of the pond...granted, there's a good bit of leeway that's allowed w/regard to being historically accurate, mostly for safety and inclusion reasons. I know there's a lot of period nazis who take offense to anyone whose garb or accoutrements don't match their level of snuff but the majority of players don't for various reasons. Yet, they indulge in armored combat on a much larger scale- as we all know, not every man on the field was a consummate swordsman, pikeman, archer or even knight, conscripts rarely are so who can honestly say whether or not how they go about it is totally inaccurate or not? None of us were there...you can quote texts and cite pictorial references but those aren't always set down by people who witnessed the events. I say take it w/a grain of salt when its necessary, or the whole shaker if it suits you- but none of us can say they truly know.
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I unfortunately don't have the time to read this whole thing at the moment but here is my two cents.
John is a nice guy and we share similar opinions about the SCA and other HMB groups. I have also seen people he has challenge walk away from it, and I have also seen him lose a number of fights. He receives a lot of hate because he defends his interpretations of martial science, and people don't like that it conflicts with their interpretations even though a majority have only looked at depictions with out reading the accompanying text. I have only ever disagreed with Clements once, and it was on use of sword and buckler. As for him acting knightly, well he never as far to my knowledge clamed to be.
Basically, he is either liked or hated, I have never met someone who held him in a neutral position, well maybe not never but very few.
my 2 cents.
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He studied the masters and came to his own system that way. He teaches, he fights, he's gone into HEMA & SCA tourneys and won or placed well
If he didn't win, and "placed well"... that means he lost to someone, at some point. Does that mean he has no credibility at all any more?
Would that be different from JC showing up to spar with someone, and losing? Would that one fight between JC and someone make or break his "career"?
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You make a good point, Sir Ian- it is not yet a fully developed art...who is to say we know half of what we should? With that said, does he really possess the wherewithal to cast aspersions when the truth really isn't fully known? I'm no fan of the SCA or some of its denizens (present company excluded of course) but I'll use them as an example anyway. Speculation being what it is, who is to say that what they do has no basis in history? Its probably the closest thing to a tourney we're like to see this side of the pond...granted, there's a good bit of leeway that's allowed w/regard to being historically accurate, mostly for safety and inclusion reasons. I know there's a lot of period nazis who take offense to anyone whose garb or accoutrements don't match their level of snuff but the majority of players don't for various reasons. Yet, they indulge in armored combat on a much larger scale- as we all know, not every man on the field was a consummate swordsman, pikeman, archer or even knight, conscripts rarely are so who can honestly say whether or not how they go about it is totally inaccurate or not? None of us were there...you can quote texts and cite pictorial references but those aren't always set down by people who witnessed the events. I say take it w/a grain of salt when its necessary, or the whole shaker if it suits you- but none of us can say they truly know.
Well, we can almost certainly say that what the SCA does has no basis in history. Read any surviving treatise on the sword, polearm, messer... whatever, and show me SCA techniques. I'm not talking about the way they dress and depict themselves. I'm talking about the techniques they use in their wars and heavy fighting. Wrap shots, and bizarre guards etc. These techniques are honed and designed for one specific purpose, and that is to be good at SCA heavy. They were never intended to be based on historical techniques. They came up with a game of hitting people with sticks and pretend their swords, they were never designed to use them like an actual sword was used in period. Most importantly, this is not something the SCA should take offense too, because it's simply it's own sport.
The problem JC has is that so many people in the SCA get all bent out of shape when you dare claim what they do is not a historical martial art. It was never intended to be! It doesn't look like any surviving text on real historical martial arts! It was invented by a bunch of people looking to have fun in armor in the 70's! Certain members of the SCA misrepresent what they do as a historical martial art to the public at demos etc... this is a problem when people like us are trying to bring real historical martial arts to the public and we literally have to battle the SCA's misinformation. I'm not claiming all SCA members do this, but the few who do cause a lot of damage to the minds of the public interested in real historical swordsmanship. Why can't it just be fun for fun's sake and be it's own sport? I don't get it.... It's like Renaissance Faire organizers getting offended because Living History enthusiasts assert that a Ren Faire is primarily for entertainment and not history. It's the same thing with SCA vs HEMA.
I unfortunately don't have the time to read this whole thing at the moment but here is my two cents.
John is a nice guy and we share similar opinions about the SCA and other HMB groups. I have also seen people he has challenge walk away from it, and I have also seen him lose a number of fights. He receives a lot of hate because he defends his interpretations of martial science, and people don't like that it conflicts with their interpretations even though a majority have only looked at depictions with out reading the accompanying text. I have only ever disagreed with Clements once, and it was on use of sword and buckler. As for him acting knightly, well he never as far to my knowledge clamed to be.
Basically, he is either liked or hated, I have never met someone who held him in a neutral position, well maybe not never but very few.
my 2 cents.
Well said.
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If he didn't win, and "placed well"... that means he lost to someone, at some point. Does that mean he has no credibility at all any more?
Would that be different from JC showing up to spar with someone, and losing? Would that one fight between JC and someone make or break his "career"?
Gemini has never said he is King & God of the One True Path, (nor has Tobler, Capwell, Loades, & others), but it seems often to me that that's exactly what JC is saying. Gemini has entered Combatcon, La Prova Dura, Crown, Coronet, & other EMA & WMA tourney's. He faced other Ways, changed his style, and is constantly improving. I don't really see that as much in ARMA.
I don't care if JC wins or loses. It's not about winning or losing. It's about being more than just words & not being a braggart. Hell I have more honest fight vids, both SCA & HEMA, out there than JC cause I win & lose in them in honest contest.
Words feed Air. Deeds feed Ravens.
On a side note: Is it not nifty that folks like Christian Tobler exist? Still reading my free copy of Fighting with the German Longsword. Still very much liking the continued good work of Freelance Academy Press. :)
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On the lighter side... 10 minute flourish. :)
John Clements' 10 minute flourish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bV-L0w2JzI#)
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It has a nice beat & I can dance to it. 8)
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NAPOLEON DYNAMITE Dance Scene Jon Heder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiAwpYIkRmU#)
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Star Wars kid Fat Jedi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUaaX3qC1M0#)
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The fat kid vid was pretty cool, actually. That other flourish video, was that really Clements?
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The fat kid vid was pretty cool, actually. That other flourish video, was that really Clements?
Yep, that was JC. I have no idea who edited it together though.
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If someone needs to tear someone else down in order to feel better about themselves, they are a 't**d in a punchbowl'.
vs.
I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules ;D
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).
Isn't that the same thing?
What purpose would John Clements fighting anyone with BotN rules serve? BotN and Armored Combat League have virtually nothing to do with the historical technique of Liechtenauer or Fiore, or anything from our past for that matter. It's just a brawl in armor using swords as clubs. Sure it's a tough sport, and cool to watch, but it has nothing to do with the techniques people like John Clements, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler etc are interested in reviving. You just want to see someone get beat up, isn't that the same as bringing someone else down to feel better about oneself?
John Clements can be very abrasive. That's his personality, but to pretend like he's not a good swordsman is denying a fact staring everyone in the face. He just seems to be the guy who likes to take his ball and go home if others don't see things his way, but his accomplishments in the world of historical swordsmanship cannot be overlooked.
Sir Ian, does anyone alive actually know what medival combat was actually like? ;)
I would have a tendency to believe that (other than tournies) combat was much more like BotN than Liechtenauer or Fiore. The latter two more likely were in closely monitored situations (ie judical combat, tournies and the like) while on the actual warfield, I wonder if it would be an advantage.
As for your response of You just want to see someone get beat up, isn't that the same as bringing someone else down to feel better about oneself? I was just curious which style would prevail. I used Nissan as an example because of my experience against him, I coould have easily used several other members whom I know and have fought both SCA singles and melees with and against.
I apologize if you read ill intent into my post.
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don't see anyone clamoring for other HEMA/WMA teachers to go fight people. It's just fun to pile on and hate the 'bad boy' of WMA. I see a lot of hypocrisy within WMA with regards to how ARMA is treated. People get mad at Clements for so vociferously defending his own opinions on techniques by doing the same about their own... And Clements isn't going around saying he can beat every other school in a sword fight, so why is the burden of proof to be laid upon his head? I don't see people yelling and screaming for Christian Tobler to go fight someone to prove what he teaches, or anyone else for that matter.
Because Tobler, Mondescheim, Charon etal, are not like Clements. I know Bob Charon personally and the others by words and deeds.
Clements track record proves his 'likeability'.
Or to quote someone "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig"
(and no, I am not calling Clements a pig, I am alliterating to the fact that no matter how well you dress something up, it is still true to it's base,)
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I'll have to re-read the accounts of deeds like the Combat of the Thirty, but from what I remember, they didn't sound like the BotN brawls. But yes, people like Froissart have written accounts of actual battles and tournaments, so we do have an idea of what real medieval combat was like.
I just find it amusing that people constantly call out Clements for not being knightly or chivalrous or this or that and hurling all kinds of insults his way. Is that knightly, or chivalrous to do? Pot, this is kettle.... Besides, why does Clements have to be knightly or chivalrous? Is he claiming to be a Knight? No, he's a martial arts teacher and historical researcher, and he's damn good at it.
Whether you like him or not, he's done more to bring HEMA/WMA to the public's mind than anyone, if just by virtue of him being on TV all the time unlike any of the other's mentioned. People like Dr. Sydney Anglo don't back ARMA because it's a den of iniquity like so many pretend. I have the utmost respect for all of the gentlemen mentioned in this thread, but I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Clements and I find it tiresome that people constantly feel the need to go out of their way to bash him, when a lot of people probably wouldn't have ever even gotten the spark to be interested in HEMA/WMA if it wasn't for his efforts in the first place, be it directly as some in this thread have accounted, or indirectly by him getting the word out.
In fact, you can even take it a step further and be thankful that he comes off so abrasive sometimes, because it sparks actual discussion on technique. And that is useful! If people are just constantly avoiding conflict, you wind up with stagnation. I'm willing to be his thoughts on the krumphau alone have caused hundreds of other HEMA organizations to at least scrutinize what they were doing and really think it through, and we need that kind of thought in the art.
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I'll have to re-read the accounts of deeds like the Combat of the Thirty, but from what I remember, they didn't sound like the BotN brawls.
Either way, it's a once-a-year tournament (I think), and it represents a very very tiny fraction of the overall SCA group, in a tournament far different from their usual. Can't take that one tournament and extrapolate it to the rest of the SCA, just like we don't take the Tournament of the Phoenix joust by Jeffrey Hedgecock to be equivalent to the renn-fest jousts.
Besides, why does Clements have to be knightly or chivalrous? Is he claiming to be a Knight? No, he's a martial arts teacher and historical researcher, and he's damn good at it.
Sir Ian, you've pretty much nailed it. That hadn't crossed my mind. People can tell me I'm not a fire truck, and if I haven't said I'm a fire truck ... why does it matter? Brilliant!
I have the utmost respect for all of the gentlemen mentioned in this thread, but I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Clements and I find it tiresome that people constantly feel the need to go out of their way to bash him, when a lot of people probably wouldn't have ever even gotten the spark to be interested in HEMA/WMA if it wasn't for his efforts in the first place, be it directly as some in this thread have accounted, or indirectly by him getting the word out.
Agreed. I've met him, and he wasn't a jerk. The only thing that came off harsh was the "ARMA members only" part, and the "don't talk to others" part. But that's ARMA rules, and Clements *himself* was a nice guy.
Here's a recent video of his:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27vUArC0KRo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27vUArC0KRo)
He shows techniques I haven't seen anywhere else, he's dynamic with his presentation, his students are paying attention and, dare I say, even having fun. And a couple times, he asks if they're okay after showing techniques, and helps them up off the ground a few times. What a douche, right? :)
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Sir James, I meant the real Combat of the Thirty, not the SCA re-creation.
Three accounts of the historical deed can be read in Freelance's reader here:
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/combatofthethirty.aspx (http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/combatofthethirty.aspx)
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I'll have to re-read the accounts of deeds like the Combat of the Thirty, but from what I remember, they didn't sound like the BotN brawls. But yes, people like Froissart have written accounts of actual battles and tournaments, so we do have an idea of what real medieval combat was like.
CotT was not a battle, but a contencious tourney.
Agincourt
Lake Pepius
Vienna
Stamford Bridge
They were battles
I just find it amusing that people constantly call out Clements for not being knightly or chivalrous or this or that and hurling all kinds of insults his way. Is that knightly, or chivalrous to do? Pot, this is kettle.... Besides, why does Clements have to be knightly or chivalrous? Is he claiming to be a Knight? No, he's a martial arts teacher and historical researcher, and he's damn good at it.
I did not "call him out" nor do I consider him "knightly' nor "chivalrous".
I find him to be a pompous ass, who may be able to kick mine, but a pompous ass anyway.
Mordred was a knight and a king, but was in no way knightly, nor chivalrous
Whether you like him or not, he's done more to bring HEMA/WMA to the public's mind than anyone, if just by virtue of him being on TV all the time unlike any of the other's mentioned. People like Dr. Sydney Anglo don't back ARMA because it's a den of iniquity like so many pretend. I have the utmost respect for all of the gentlemen mentioned in this thread, but I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Clements and I find it tiresome that people constantly feel the need to go out of their way to bash him, when a lot of people probably wouldn't have ever even gotten the spark to be interested in HEMA/WMA if it wasn't for his efforts in the first place, be it directly as some in this thread have accounted, or indirectly by him getting the word out.
So, bad 'pub' is the same as good 'pub'? His attitude may have driven away as many if not more people interested in this.
In fact, you can even take it a step further and be thankful that he comes off so abrasive sometimes, because it sparks actual discussion on technique. And that is useful! If people are just constantly avoiding conflict, you wind up with stagnation. I'm willing to be his thoughts on the krumphau alone have caused hundreds of other HEMA organizations to at least scrutinize what they were doing and really think it through, and we need that kind of thought in the art.
I will leave you to your choice. I have (for the better part of a decade) to find him an ass.
I choose to leave him as such.
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CotT was not a battle, but a contencious tourney.
Agincourt
Lake Pepius
Vienna
Stamford Bridge
They were battles
Precisely why I brought up Froissart and his contemporaries after mentioning CoTT, thanks for reinforcing my point.
I did not "call him out" nor do I consider him "knightly' nor "chivalrous".
I find him to be a pompous ass, who may be able to kick mine, but a pompous ass anyway.
That's great, I'm responding to the title of this entire thread and the sentiment it carries.
So, bad 'pub' is the same as good 'pub'? His attitude may have driven away as many if not more people interested in this.
What bad publicity? His only bad publicity is inside the circles of HEMA that the public doesn't see anyway. He doesn't do bad publicity for his television interviews. The public has no idea about his reputation. They see him in things like Medieval Fight Book and Reclaiming the Blade, and he's not the monster others make him out to be in those. His actual mainstream publicity is quite tame and informative. That's what I was referring to. You're injecting his reputation in the HEMA world specifically in to what the public sees of him, and the fact of the matter is they don't see that stuff. The public interacts with John Clements the way Sir James did, by taking an introductory class. They don't see internet flame wars about how much pomposity he may or may not have. That's why I said he's done so much for putting HEMA in the minds of the public in a positive way. People just want to hate him and give him no credit for all the good he's done, and you're showing it.
I did not "call him out"...".
I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).
You didn't?
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A lot of great points being discussed here and I am neither a fan nor a foe of JC yet I do acknowledge and applaud his contributions to illuminating HEMA/WMA to the masses in which his gregarious and impassioned presentation is nigh incomparable. Yet it is very apparent that he has always cultivated and steadfastly maintained his isolationistic aura. He has either produced and/or promoted the good the bad and the ugly in concepts, interpretations and controversial demonstrations, like this one discussed here: http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,208.0.html (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,208.0.html)
So I suppose he will always be an enigma to me unless I he happens to open an ARMA academy near me and allows me to join/train I suppose I will continue to consider him a brilliant crackpot! :-\
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CotT was not a battle, but a contencious tourney.
Agincourt
Lake Pepius
Vienna
Stamford Bridge
They were battles
Precisely why I brought up Froissart and his contemporaries after mentioning CoTT, thanks for reinforcing my point.
I did not "call him out" nor do I consider him "knightly' nor "chivalrous".
I find him to be a pompous ass, who may be able to kick mine, but a pompous ass anyway.
That's great, I'm responding to the title of this entire thread and the sentiment it carries.
So, bad 'pub' is the same as good 'pub'? His attitude may have driven away as many if not more people interested in this.
What bad publicity? His only bad publicity is inside the circles of HEMA that the public doesn't see anyway. He doesn't do bad publicity for his television interviews. The public has no idea about his reputation. They see him in things like Medieval Fight Book and Reclaiming the Blade, and he's not the monster others make him out to be in those. His actual mainstream publicity is quite tame and informative. That's what I was referring to. You're injecting his reputation in the HEMA world specifically in to what the public sees of him, and the fact of the matter is they don't see that stuff. The public interacts with John Clements the way Sir James did, by taking an introductory class. They don't see internet flame wars about how much pomposity he may or may not have. That's why I said he's done so much for putting HEMA in the minds of the public in a positive way. People just want to hate him and give him no credit for all the good he's done, and you're showing it.
I did not "call him out"...".
I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).
You didn't?
don't see anyone clamoring for other HEMA/WMA teachers to go fight people. It's just fun to pile on and hate the 'bad boy' of WMA. I see a lot of hypocrisy within WMA with regards to how ARMA is treated. People get mad at Clements for so vociferously defending his own opinions on techniques by doing the same about their own... And Clements isn't going around saying he can beat every other school in a sword fight, so why is the burden of proof to be laid upon his head? I don't see people yelling and screaming for Christian Tobler to go fight someone to prove what he teaches, or anyone else for that matter.
Because Tobler, Mondescheim, Charon etal, are not like Clements. I know Bob Charon personally and the others by words and deeds.
Clements track record proves his 'likeability'.
Or to quote someone "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig"
(and no, I am not calling Clements a pig, I am alliterating to the fact that no matter how well you dress something up, it is still true to it's base,)
From above.
Appearantly, you are a Clements fan, so no matter what I say or present will not be 'good enough'.
HMMMMM, kinda like John himself.
Make your own observation from my comment.
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Ah, so now begin the personal accusations, I'd prefer if you could respond to the points instead, but that's fine. I am a John Clements fan, I'm also equally a Christian Tobler fan, a Greg Mele fan, a Bill Grandy fan et all... I am a fan of anyone who contributes to the world of HEMA and WMA, and the chivalric arts in general, so yeah, you got me! I would defend any of those men just the same as I would John Clements.
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Ah, so now begin the personal accusations, I'd prefer if you could respond to the points instead, but that's fine. I am a John Clements fan, I'm also equally a Christian Tobler fan, a Greg Mele fan, a Bill Grandy fan et all... I am a fan of anyone who contributes to the world of HEMA and WMA, and the chivalric arts in general, so yeah, you got me! I would defend any of those men just the same as I would John Clements.
I try to be a good example to my 10 and 12 y/o children.
John Clements is not to them.
'Nuff said
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Ah, so now begin the personal accusations, I'd prefer if you could respond to the points instead, but that's fine. I am a John Clements fan, I'm also equally a Christian Tobler fan, a Greg Mele fan, a Bill Grandy fan et all... I am a fan of anyone who contributes to the world of HEMA and WMA, and the chivalric arts in general, so yeah, you got me! I would defend any of those men just the same as I would John Clements.
I'd like to point out that being a fan of John Clements and anyone (or everyone) else in WMA/HEMA are not mutually exclusive.
Did anyone watch the video I posted?
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Yeah, it's a great video, and I agree with your comments on it from your above post. I think it illustrates not only that he can be a good teacher and not a douche, but it shows ARMA's particular attention to biomechanics and practical technique. A lot of their videos are equally as informative and offer some unique perspective.
And yes, that's an important point that liking JC and other HEMA instructors is not a mutually exclusive proposition. You don't have to pick sides. People want it to be good vs evil, but it's just different perspectives. Learn from all of them!
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Hey all, let's keep it civil. We haven't crossed the line yet, just a friendly reminder. :)
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Hey all, let's keep it civil. We haven't crossed the line yet, just a friendly reminder. :)
I dunno, implications about the example I set for my own child crossed the line. I just chose to ignore it. :)
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Does this mean I can't be a 3rd party interceder & antagonize the situation to the point of bloodshed?? :( Darnit!!!
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Hey all, let's keep it civil. We haven't crossed the line yet, just a friendly reminder. :)
I dunno, implications about the example I set for my own child crossed the line. I just chose to ignore it. :)
I must have missed that. I'll have to go back and re-read.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27vUArC0KRo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27vUArC0KRo)
He shows techniques I haven't seen anywhere else, he's dynamic with his presentation, his students are paying attention and, dare I say, even having fun.
Yeah, it's a great video, and I agree with your comments on it from your above post. I think it illustrates not only that he can be a good teacher and not a douche, but it shows ARMA's particular attention to biomechanics and practical technique. A lot of their videos are equally as informative and offer some unique perspective.
His teaching style is both captivating and informative and I do enjoy his videos and have experimented with some of his techniques with a variance of success. What is curious though, is given that his years of study is on par with many other scholars of HEMA who are generally not congruent with some of his interpretations of the manuscripts, which suggests to me that JC is expanding and experimenting upon the art as everyone involved with HEMA is in the rediscovering/redeveloping of this lost art. This isn't a bad thing, just an observation along with the curious notion of wondering: Did this occur back in the days of yore when the contemporaries of the Masters Liechtenauer, Talhoffer, Ringeck and Meyer may have had similar disagreements of technique? ???
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What is curious though, is given that his years of study is on par with many other scholars of HEMA who are generally not congruent with some of his interpretations of the manuscripts, which suggests to me that JC is expanding and experimenting upon the art as everyone involved with HEMA is in the rediscovering/redeveloping of this lost art. This isn't a bad thing, just an observation along with the curious notion of wondering: Did this occur back in the days of yore when the contemporaries of the Masters Liechtenauer, Talhoffer, Ringeck and Meyer may have had similar disagreements of technique? ???
Excellent observation. I had toyed with this idea as well. I do believe that John is experimenting, extrapolating, and developing his own ideas and techniques that go beyond what the masters left for us. I also think this is very valid. In fact, it's one of the things that draws me to the ARMA approach. They take the evidence, they take their knowledge of biomechanics, and they experiment with things to see what works in practice, and combine that with real athleticism.
I'm willing to bet anything that the period masters did disagree on technique and theory, and it would be awesome to see how and if they resolved or discussed these things.
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I'm willing to bet anything that the period masters did disagree on technique and theory, and it would be awesome to see how and if they resolved or discussed these things.
Definitely agreed! Especially when those same masters would be competing with other masters who want to sell *their* secret techniques and fighting styles to the highest bidder(s).
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Oh btw, JC was interviewed and did some cutting demonstrations in this recent documentary that is available on Netflicks which is titled: 'Secrets of the Viking Sword'
http://video.pbs.org/video/2284159044/ (http://video.pbs.org/video/2284159044/)
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Oh btw, JC was interviewed and did some cutting demonstrations in this recent documentary that is available on Netflicks which is titled: 'Secrets of the Viking Sword'
http://video.pbs.org/video/2284159044/ (http://video.pbs.org/video/2284159044/)
JC was not very happy with how that show turned out, talked to him about it actually on another forum. they left a lot out that he wanted in, etc.
I'm willing to bet anything that the period masters did disagree on technique and theory, and it would be awesome to see how and if they resolved or discussed these things.
Definitely agreed! Especially when those same masters would be competing with other masters who want to sell *their* secret techniques and fighting styles to the highest bidder(s).
Totally agree as well. There are members of a group I participate in who disagree with my interpretations and teaching, and in fact those members talk to the "students" in the group about me the same way you hear people talking about JC "in the negative fashion" that is. slander is a sport don't ya know ::)
also, wasn't there some deal about Fabris calling copy-right on Giganti.
(^bit off topic I know my bad)
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Oh btw, JC was interviewed and did some cutting demonstrations in this recent documentary that is available on Netflicks which is titled: 'Secrets of the Viking Sword'
http://video.pbs.org/video/2284159044/ (http://video.pbs.org/video/2284159044/)
JC was not very happy with how that show turned out, talked to him about it actually on another forum. they left a lot out that he wanted in, etc.
Even still the parts they did leave in was a crucial fact about the sword’s edge not needing to be excessively sharp to effectively cut which JC presented and demonstrated in his typical and very believable aplomb. :)
Totally agree as well. There are members of a group I participate in who disagree with my interpretations and teaching, and in fact those members talk to the "students" in the group about me the same way you hear people talking about JC "in the negative fashion" that is. slander is a sport don't ya know ::)
It is a peculiar human trait to often misalign another person’s perspective about you based upon our personal basis of comparison and woefully adopt and project these incorrect perceptions based upon this flawed process.
One of my personal experiences in this regard:
For the first two years I studied with my HEMA group there was an advanced student that I could never get a ‘read’ on. He is a very intense swordsman yet an aloof type of person especially to some of the newer students, which I came to realize were the students he couldn’t quite get a ‘read’ on himself. It was frustrating to deal with the notion that I and some other students was not worthy of this elite student’s consideration nor his coveted training advice. Yet as time went by there developed a measure of understanding of one another or perhaps I just didn’t suck as bad as I when I first started. ;)
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It is a peculiar human trait to often misalign another person’s perspective about you based upon our personal basis of comparison and woefully adopt and project these incorrect perceptions based upon this flawed process.
One of my personal experiences in this regard:
For the first two years I studied with my HEMA group there was an advanced student that I could never get a ‘read’ on. He is a very intense swordsman yet an aloof type of person especially to some of the newer students, which I came to realize were the students he couldn’t quite get a ‘read’ on himself. It was frustrating to deal with the notion that I and some other students was not worthy of this elite student’s consideration nor his coveted training advice. Yet as time went by there developed a measure of understanding of one another or perhaps I just didn’t suck as bad as I when I first started. ;)
^very true.