ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2012-04-03, 01:57:46
-
Longsword Practice, Order of the Marshal, April 1, 2012. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBeowsETRmo#ws)
OK, I'm badly repeating myself a lot. I'm working on that. lol!
-
The duel portion of the demo turned out great! I can't wait to see the rest! :)
I'd say we are well matched for this demonstration. Your technique is beautiful while mine seems more beastly...err...wait a minute...???
NO WE ARE NOT RENAMING THE DEMO DUEL OF THE BEAUTY AND THE BEAST! ;)
-
@ 3:46 is a shot of beauty.
There were a few times when, as the tempo of blows & overall speed came up both y'all form started to tighten up alot.
-
Yeah I really have to stop leaving myself open like that...I guess I was trying the 'Gopher Gambit' which is when you hope your adversary missteps into a gopher hole and is momentarily distracted and open for a cleaving mittlehau. ;)
-
If you notice, I stepped back slightly and then came back in with the attack. Distance control. :)
-
If you notice, I stepped back slightly and then came back in with the attack. Nothing more than just distance control there. :)
Yes that is the crucial phase of the 'Gopher Gambit' when you was suppose to step into a gopher hole! ;)
-
Yes that is the crucial phase of the 'Gopher Gambit' when you was suppose to step into a gopher hole! ;)
So neither of us fell for each other's shenanigans? Uh oh, that means we might both have to rely on technique. What's the world coming to? :)
-
At 2:02 starts my nebenhut play, and good Sir Brian simply backed away instead of taking the bait. Darn :)
-
Yeah I liked that bit and think the audience may enjoy that as well. :)
-
I wonder how the German style compares to the Italian style. Would be interesting to see the 2 styles employed against each other to see the differences, strengths and weaknesses.
-
I think they're pretty comparable. Stylistically different, of course, but functionally I think they're equivalent.
-
Apparantly they have a whole bunch of extra guards, and is an extremely unpredictable, fast paced style. Though it seems all of this extra movement comes from the fact that when a swordsman says the Italian names of the gaurds and cuts, their arms and hands involuntarily begin to move at a high velocity, leading to a sudden change of guard or strike.
Teaching the art is very difficult, as when this happens to the instructor, and they try to explain the name of the gaurd or cut they have just involuntarily used, their arms start moving again, and this can continue in a vicious unbreakable cycle for hours until the teacher passes out from exhaustion. 8)
-
Apparantly they have a whole bunch of extra guards, and is an extremely unpredictable, fast paced style. Though it seems all of this extra movement comes from the fact that when a swordsman says the Italian names of the gaurds and cuts, their arms and hands involuntarily begin to move at a high velocity, leading to a sudden change of guard or strike.
Teaching the art is very difficult, as when this happens to the instructor, and they try to explain the name of the gaurd or cut they have just involuntarily used, their arms start moving again, and this can continue in a vicious unbreakable cycle for hours until the teacher passes out from exhaustion. 8)
As I person of 100% Italian ancestry, I can verify this fact... I have to remain completely silent while I type as well, or I find it impossible to keep my hands on the keys... ;)
-
I know how it feels. The Q stands for "Quarantillo" ;). During public speaking I often have to remind myself to keep the hands down, or at least on SOMETHING.
I'm also heavily German, so I'm pretty intense with my hand motions. If I'm in an actual argument I look like I'm reenacting one of Hitler's hate-speeches, with the way I'm throwing my arms about and gesturing. :P
-
Apparantly they have a whole bunch of extra guards, and is an extremely unpredictable, fast paced style. Though it seems all of this extra movement comes from the fact that when a swordsman says the Italian names of the gaurds and cuts, their arms and hands involuntarily begin to move at a high velocity, leading to a sudden change of guard or strike.
Teaching the art is very difficult, as when this happens to the instructor, and they try to explain the name of the gaurd or cut they have just involuntarily used, their arms start moving again, and this can continue in a vicious unbreakable cycle for hours until the teacher passes out from exhaustion. 8)
As I person of 100% Italian ancestry, I can verify this fact... I have to remain completely silent while I type as well, or I find it impossible to keep my hands on the keys... ;)
Lol you two are killing me! :D
-
you guys are horrible :)
Overall learning the Italian style is relatively easy, though I'm still learning how to string combinations together to think 2-3 steps ahead based on what an opponent may or may not do. That's the hard part for me as I tend to perform one or two maneuvers and then stop to think what's next?
There are quite a few interpretations of the various guards too on how they are played out.
-
What do you call an Italian with no hands?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Mute. ;D
-
AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
-
If you notice, I stepped back slightly and then came back in with the attack. Nothing more than just distance control there. :)
Yes that is the crucial phase of the 'Gopher Gambit' when you was suppose to step into a gopher hole! ;)
I can dig some extra holes and place some artificial grass over them to blend them in. Hmm... and perhaps randomly buried magnets. And some reflective mirrors so it's impossible to keep your eyes out of the sun? :D
-
you guys are horrible :)
Overall learning the Italian style is relatively easy, though I'm still learning how to string combinations together to think 2-3 steps ahead based on what an opponent may or may not do. That's the hard part for me as I tend to perform one or two maneuvers and then stop to think what's next?
There are quite a few interpretations of the various guards too on how they are played out.
Yeah, me too. I've started falling into a few patterns, because they work. But I need to work on keeping it more dynamic without pausing to think too hard.
What throws me for a loop the worst is when I try to do something complicated, and it works... then I stop and think "now what???"
-
Yeah I think this is an issue with all students of any type of martial art. Maintaining a fluidity of motion and intent can only come with repetition. What is one of the most appealing things about studying WMA is the fundamentals are decently covered but the refinements are left up to the individual to discover and develop for themselves. :)
As I consider myself still a novice student that is reasonably comfortable with the foundations of the longsword I am really enjoying on developing the refinements of ‘MY’ fighting style. I find using a pell really helps in developing my own katas to borrow a Japanese term. I try to visualize my opponent’s initial guard and attacks or defense while I practice perfecting a kata and infusing it into my muscle memory. Some work nearly all the time and others are a work in progress and still others are under the mental category of: NEVER DO THIS AGAIN! ;)
-
NEVER DO THIS AGAIN! ;)
Parrying with your thumb is probably in this category. I learned that one the hard way myself. :)
-
In short, both Sir Edward and Sir Brian did an nice job with with bout. I saw a couple of good techniques and distance control from both combatants.
How ever in regards to double kills, my philosophy is this: "You FREAKIN FAILED TO PARRY YOU IDIOT! ( ;) )
In regards to the differences between Italian and German Longsword arts, Italian has twelve guards as opposed the the 8 German guards. Footwork and body mechanics are also different. Fiore suggests linear footwork with additional triangle stepping (you step in three points like that of a triangle). Also the stance which reveals body mechanics, more athletic in nature whereas in German stance and body mechanics, they are more relaxed in posture, and footwork is more circular than linear (Dobringer advises to step offline and at an angle simultaneously). Liechtenauer advises as well to invest in one strike that will get the job done instead of having to strike 2 for 4 strikes all at once. (If you think about it, German fencers are lazy fencers, lazy in relaxation, but not lazy when dealing a good blow).
Fighting techniques from both German and Italian (Liechtenauer vs. Fiore), there are many similarities than differences to the point where there only subtle differences that stick out. Almost like Apples vs Oranges.
Yeah I think this is an issue with all students of any type of martial art. Maintaining a fluidity of motion and intent can only come with repetition. What is one of the most appealing things about studying WMA is the fundamentals are decently covered but the refinements are left up to the individual to discover and develop for themselves.
You make a good point here Sir Brian, fluidity of motion and intent is a game of tactics than can only work with an mind open to the best and worst scenarios in combat. To me its more mental strategy than what works in a fight.
As I consider myself still a novice student that is reasonably comfortable with the foundations of the longsword I am really enjoying on developing the refinements of ‘MY’ fighting style. I find using a pell really helps in developing my own katas to borrow a Japanese term. I try to visualize my opponent’s initial guard and attacks or defense while I practice perfecting a kata and infusing it into my muscle memory. Some work nearly all the time and others are a work in progress and still others are under the mental category of: NEVER DO THIS AGAIN!
That is a good training method, please remember its all on muscle memory, you must continue this in order that several techniques or more can be ingrained to the point of instinct.
Yeah, me too. I've started falling into a few patterns, because they work. But I need to work on keeping it more dynamic without pausing to think too hard.
What throws me for a loop the worst is when I try to do something complicated, and it works... then I stop and think "now what???"
That is a mental leap in which bouting at full speed can throw a lot of people of track. This is why in Das Bill's messer videos, there is bouting "at speed", slow progressing to almost fast but slow enough to allow the mind to calculate more thoroughly with tactics and strategies. This is a bouting method that I know, because I have seen it done at SIGMA.
Overall learning the Italian style is relatively easy, though I'm still learning how to string combinations together to think 2-3 steps ahead based on what an opponent may or may not do. That's the hard part for me as I tend to perform one or two maneuvers and then stop to think what's next?
When memorizing the Italian techniques, there is that 2-3 pattern, which is more of a mental game, be sure to include the details that Fiore gives in his plays (gioco largo and gioco stretto concepts, sword in one hand, bind work, closing in, grappling edge or point work).
I know how it feels. The Q stands for "Quarantillo" ;). During public speaking I often have to remind myself to keep the hands down, or at least on SOMETHING.
I'm also heavily German, so I'm pretty intense with my hand motions. If I'm in an actual argument I look like I'm reenacting one of Hitler's hate-speeches, with the way I'm throwing my arms about and gesturing. :P
LOL! I'm more Italian when I perchance argue, I sound as if I'm going to fight someone due to me having a loud voice! LOL!
Best part is that I'm not only Puerto Rican, but also partly Spanish and Italian ;D So I know why Italians are very competitive ;)
-
Do you guys do sword+heater shield practice at all? Thats what I'd be interested in learning as thats period for the 1200s. Sure would beat rattan combat too, I dont care for full force blows as I got little in the means of strength which has been sapped.
-
Unfortunately there's very little surviving in the manuscripts about "sword and board" so to speak, so most of what's known has to be extrapolated from other things. It looks like it wasn't written down as much because people tended not to fight with them on foot so much by the time they starting writing it down in the 13th century and later. Instead people tended to favor bucklers by then, or the longsword... and then going into plate armor, the plates are your shield.
So the short answer is that in the HEMA/WMA community, you don't see a lot of it, but it's not completely absent either. Some of the Italian stuff covers the rotella (circular shield), and it gets used a little differently than you expect at first.
After working with the rotella a little bit, I have to say, I much prefer the buckler.
-
Me doing my HEMA thing a few years back:
Sean vs Tim Sep7th2010.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JftR4kqWJ9k#)
Michael-Forrest vs Sean.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWexmx_nLpM#)
-
Yeah thats one issue for me, I am not into the plate armor era at all actually as the crusades ended by then. There are viking reenacting too but I don't really have an affinity for that day and age. Still seems cool to spar with weapons, would like to try it one day dispite myself knowing almost nothing about sparring apart from some SCA/Markland style sparring with a sword and board.
-
Ulrich:
http://www.hurstwic.com/training/index.htm (http://www.hurstwic.com/training/index.htm)
http://www.hurstwic.org/viking/ (http://www.hurstwic.org/viking/)
http://www.hurstwic.org/history/text/history.htm (http://www.hurstwic.org/history/text/history.htm)
-
Yeah thats one issue for me, I am not into the plate armor era at all actually as the crusades ended by then. There are viking reenacting too but I don't really have an affinity for that day and age. Still seems cool to spar with weapons, would like to try it one day dispite myself knowing almost nothing about sparring apart from some SCA/Markland style sparring with a sword and board.
Doesn't matter if you know anything or think you know everything about it. Find a couple people, grab some swords and shields, and have at it. There's no "test" for any of this, so have fun with it - longsword, sword and shield, polearm - all fun stuff. :) Find a couple friends, pick your favorite tools to try to kill with (oh, and not die), then, have a blast. If it's not fun, you're doing something wrong.
-
Find a couple friends, pick your favorite tools to try to kill with (oh, and not die), then, have a blast. If it's not fun, you're doing something wrong.
+1 :)
I had the rust knocked out of me today at the local SCA practice. Took a short dane axe head shot that really rang my bell (amongst other embarrassing shots). Next Saturday I will be at it again at a demo for a museum.
I plan to have big fun! :D :D :D
-
Yeah thats one issue for me, I am not into the plate armor era at all actually as the crusades ended by then. There are viking reenacting too but I don't really have an affinity for that day and age. Still seems cool to spar with weapons, would like to try it one day dispite myself knowing almost nothing about sparring apart from some SCA/Markland style sparring with a sword and board.
Doesn't matter if you know anything or think you know everything about it. Find a couple people, grab some swords and shields, and have at it. There's no "test" for any of this, so have fun with it - longsword, sword and shield, polearm - all fun stuff. :) Find a couple friends, pick your favorite tools to try to kill with (oh, and not die), then, have a blast. If it's not fun, you're doing something wrong.
This is precisely how nearly every HEMA/WMA group got their start. A couple of like minded folks got together and 'rediscovered' these lost medieval martial arts. ;)
-
Yep! The best way to do it "right" is to just grab some like-minded people to start a "study group" and have at it... and buy a book that shows the techniques. You guys can work through them from the book, and then try it out on each other.
Even better is if you can go to one or two HEMA/WMA events to let some people point out your rough spots and bad habits, then go back and put some of those corrections into your group of guys. But even if you can't do that, as long as you have a few enthusiastic people, you'll have a great time and learn a lot.
-
Me doing my HEMA thing a few years back:
Looking good. Were those wooden wasters? I couldn't tell if they were wood or one of the newer synthetics. I was glad to see you guys not ramping it up to full power, since you were wearing light gear. Looks like you guys had some fun. :)
-
They were Dwarven Forge nylon wasters (which I thought were pretty good but others disagreed).
And I was working at about 25% power and 50% speed though in the vid of me vs Mike I broke his pinky badly in the last move. He did a stupid + him not wearing proper hand protection= bad day.
I liked it as it gave me a different perspective on fighting though what they learned from me was:
1) Don't depend on the bind as Ivan will try not to give it to you.
2) Don't depend on weefle blocks as Ivan may power through them.
3) 'Low percentage shot' does not equal 'will never get thrown at you', like leg shots for example.
4) Get used to getting hit cause I am.
What I learned from them was a whole new perspective that I am very slowly incorporation into my bastard sword from.
-
Yeah thats one issue for me, I am not into the plate armor era at all actually as the crusades ended by then. There are viking reenacting too but I don't really have an affinity for that day and age. Still seems cool to spar with weapons, would like to try it one day dispite myself knowing almost nothing about sparring apart from some SCA/Markland style sparring with a sword and board.
Doesn't matter if you know anything or think you know everything about it. Find a couple people, grab some swords and shields, and have at it. There's no "test" for any of this, so have fun with it - longsword, sword and shield, polearm - all fun stuff. :) Find a couple friends, pick your favorite tools to try to kill with (oh, and not die), then, have a blast. If it's not fun, you're doing something wrong.
Yeah, thing is I barely know anyone close by whos willing to do any of this with me. Needless to say none of my friends like to duel, they'd all rather play video games than do ANYTHING physical.
-
Yeah, thing is I barely know anyone close by whos willing to do any of this with me. Needless to say none of my friends like to duel, they'd all rather play video games than do ANYTHING physical.
I'd say something about the youth these days... but I grew up in front of my computer and nintendo, so... I can't. :)
-
Yeah thats one issue for me, I am not into the plate armor era at all actually as the crusades ended by then. There are viking reenacting too but I don't really have an affinity for that day and age. Still seems cool to spar with weapons, would like to try it one day dispite myself knowing almost nothing about sparring apart from some SCA/Markland style sparring with a sword and board.
Doesn't matter if you know anything or think you know everything about it. Find a couple people, grab some swords and shields, and have at it. There's no "test" for any of this, so have fun with it - longsword, sword and shield, polearm - all fun stuff. :) Find a couple friends, pick your favorite tools to try to kill with (oh, and not die), then, have a blast. If it's not fun, you're doing something wrong.
Yeah, thing is I barely know anyone close by whos willing to do any of this with me. Needless to say none of my friends like to duel, they'd all rather play video games than do ANYTHING physical.
You can use the time to acquire and read about it a bit, and as you're still young, you'll be going off to college or possibly just moving out in general, in the next couple years. Always the possibility you'll find others of like mind at that time. And if so, you've already got books & gear, so you're ahead of the curve. Try making a craigslist post to see if anyone is interested. I've got the same problem, nobody "local" so to speak (less than roughly an hour each way - which I already drive for work). I'd bet there is somebody nearby with similar interests, the key is finding out who they are, and how to find out.
Try checking any local youth groups. Or try checking some sports clubs. Maybe look for fencing groups. Ask around at faires, even wicked faire or anything with a half-medieval theme. If nothing else, it'll help break the shyness a bit, and best case, you find a training buddy (or two, or three). Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Yeah, thing is I barely know anyone close by whos willing to do any of this with me. Needless to say none of my friends like to duel, they'd all rather play video games than do ANYTHING physical.
I'd say something about the youth these days... but I grew up in front of my computer and nintendo, so... I can't. :)
Ha, me too. If it was daylight, we were playing football, basketball, tennis, dodgeball, wrestling, riding bikes - night time was console games, then eventually lugging computers across the street to play LAN games, when 56k internet was 'that really fast connection'. Of course, some of the favorites were Shining Force, Diablo I/II, Final Fantasy - fantasy/rpg stuff. :D If I was that age again, I don't know how I'd even begin to tear myself away from things like Assassin's Creed and the other immersive 3D stuff that's so common and in-depth today; half the games I had as a kid, you could beat, start to finish, in a couple hours max, and you couldn't save them anyway. So much easier to walk away from!
-
@Ulrich:
Where do you live?
-
Yeah, thing is I barely know anyone close by whos willing to do any of this with me. Needless to say none of my friends like to duel, they'd all rather play video games than do ANYTHING physical.
I don't know if you've noticed, Sir Ulrich, but a lot of us play video games; myself, I'm a console guy so I'm into CoD, AC, GTA and am currently working my way through Skyrim. Others, like Sirs Edward, Brian, James, I think Nathan and definitely Ian are PC gamers...Mount and Blade is something they've been talking about almost since I've known them, and/or the SW Old Republic MMO. I grew up on Colecovision first, then Nintendo...by the time I was an adult, games had come a long way from the days of Donkey Kong so in essence, we're all like your friends to a certain degree. The only difference being that, at least for me, video games by themselves just don't cut it. A great little/big pastime to while away lots of hours but as I've gotten older, I find my desires turning to more physical pursuits. For starters, I never seriously worked out til I hit my 30s- now its more for health than musculature but the two aren't mutually exclusive. Fencing has so far proven to be a pretty physical activity- both in my classes and witnessing Sir Edward and Sir Brian put on impromptu duels...the only difference between that and a gym is the fencing is really, really FUN.
Get acquainted with the material, read it, practice what you can- eventually you'll be going to college and depending on where it is, you may find that there's already an interest group formed for WMA purposes. You might even make that one of your hidden criteria as far as where to continue your education! Just a thought.
Ulrich is in NJ, Ivan.
-
.....
Ulrich is in NJ, Ivan.
Here ya go! Get into some armour and get some lovely rattan therapy. :D
The Southern Region
http://www.eastkingdom.org/LocalGroups.html (http://www.eastkingdom.org/LocalGroups.html)
Map!
(http://www.eastkingdom.org/images/MapSouth_current.gif)
-
Ivan, where are the WV guys located? I lean more towards WMA myself, but I've always wanted to give SCA a go.
BTW Ulrich, it's quite possible to learn much by yourself. I learned the very basics by sitting in my room working on footwork and by swinging a sword in the backyard. While nothing truly compares to having regular sparring partners, it sure is something.
-
For NathanQ: You are in the Kingdom of Aethelmearc. Look under 'Region 1'. (http://www.aethelmearc.org/ (http://www.aethelmearc.org/) http://www.aethelmearc.org/groups.php (http://www.aethelmearc.org/groups.php))
For to find out where 'you' might be SCA wise:
http://sca.org/geography/ (http://sca.org/geography/)
Hope that helps!
-Ivan
-
Now this is interesting, first sword and board fighting, then the "evils" of video games then Local SCA Groups.
Proud to say I also live in NJ, and in reference to Ivan's map, I would be in the Baron of Carillion.
Concerning video games: I relate to this as well, I used to play them (more action/adventure than rpgs). I gave that up before going into martial arts and eventually HEMA. I do not regret it at all :)
Get acquainted with the material, read it, practice what you can- eventually you'll be going to college and depending on where it is, you may find that there's already an interest group formed for WMA purposes. You might even make that one of your hidden criteria as far as where to continue your education! Just a thought.
That is the plan indeed, that is also how I got my start in my studies in German Longsword and now the Bolognese Swordsmanship tradition (focus on the sidesword itself with the buckler, but will get into sword and rotella shield, polearms and the Spadone).
Even better is if you can go to one or two HEMA/WMA events to let some people point out your rough spots and bad habits, then go back and put some of those corrections into your group of guys. But even if you can't do that, as long as you have a few enthusiastic people, you'll have a great time and learn a lot.
That is my intent in going to NHSC, since I have got a good start in Bolognese sidesword, I would love to refine and drill my basics which are always important. As the saying goes "Patient (or persistent) practice of the fundamentals will assure you victory, do not be impatient with the fight."
In regards to the SCA, i will consider giving it a go after college, what is great is that there is Cut and Thrust Fencing (steel weapons and bucklers are allowed!) Which is more historically accurate than the familiar rattan combat and its Rapier Fencing (which prohibits percussive cuts). Type in Cut and Thrust fencing on youtube and you will find some good stuff there.
-
Ivan, where are the WV guys located? I lean more towards WMA myself, but I've always wanted to give SCA a go.
I'm not sure if it's still active/popular, but there is/was weekend practice on Martinsburg, WV. That's the town near my house, but about 10-15 minutes closer. I've considered going up there to check it out once I've got my 'to do list' back down to reasonable and have the time to go check it out without feeling that I'm getting into more things when I'm already close to 100% capacity. Let me know if you check it out!