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Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir William on 2014-02-06, 19:05:38

Title: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-06, 19:05:38
This type of thread is done on the Armour Archive to great success; I thought I'd try it here because there are numerous threads for any number of impressions one might want to do, but one they do not have is a reference point for reenactors interested in this particular period.  I did find threads on Hospitaliers (1200-1250 for instance), Spanish, French and other types of knights or men-at-arms but none for an English Knight.  If there is little difference, say, between a French and English knight, let me know that as well...

As you may have guessed, there's plenty of thread material on the AA for those interested in the 14th C Mafia but nothing for the 13th Englishman, so I thought I'd choose that as my starting foundation.

So, what I'm after is this: any and all information on the arms, armor, garments/soft kit and accessories that a 13th C knight would have on his person, be it on campaign or at home.  If you have links to books, pictures or online repositories, those would be most welcome.  Personal anecdotes and experiences are also encouraged- ideally this would lead to a discussion but overall, I'd like this to be a one-stop shop so that I, and anyone else interrested in the period, could come here and do a quick lookup in the thread w/out having to hunt anything down.

Since I am looking to make as close an impression as possible to Living History (I know, I know, OMG Sir William is going there right), I would appreciate only period-appropriate suggestions; this means no plate- cuirasses or breast plates, gorgets, bevors, bascinets or armets to name a few things.  I'd like to be able to include simple elbows, knees and schynbalds if possible but if that does not begin til 14th C then I won't be including them.

Thank you all for your interest and contribution to this thread.

William
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Ian on 2014-02-06, 19:57:09
A quick survey in manuscripts of the first half of the 13th century armor.

1200-1225, you can see that in this image from the Arundel MS Psalter (in what appears to be depicting the Massacre of the Holy Innocents, that's King Herod on the left), he is wearing a full hauberk, norman style nasal helm, and maille chausses that lace up in the pack (as opposed to the stocking style).

(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/756-1_gallery.jpg)

Also from 1200-1225, but a different manuscript, again we see the laced in the back style of chausses and teardrop shaped shields:
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/34-1_gallery.jpg)

1200-1225 again, but now no chausses at all, the rest of the armor stays the same:
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/943-7_gallery.jpg)

1225-1250, proto-great helm, stocking style chausses?  Integrated hands in the hauberk:
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/150-6_gallery.jpg)

This very famous image from 1250 (and the inspiration for the Albion Chevalier!) shows an integrated set of mittens (with what may be a linen or leather palm) on his hauberk.  He's a knight, and is wearing laced in the back chausses still.  Prick style spurs as corroborated by 13th century finds.  Leather thongs on the coif to help keep it fitted properly.
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/156-1_large.jpg)

Now this one in 1250 shows plate knees and schynbalds on the dude wearing the crown on the lower right, indicating that this was available to the very well-off mid-century.
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/1089-3_large.jpg)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Ian on 2014-02-06, 20:04:00
Plate knees are the first piece of plate armor to show up on effigies around 1240:

1241 -
Gilbert Marshal 4th Earl of Pembroke
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/gilbert_marshal_s82_r1430_large.jpg)

1250-
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/iddesleigh_knight_s5_r5293_large.jpg)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-02-06, 20:08:43
Are those plate knees on those effigies, though, or cuir bouilli? Is there a way to tell? I often get stumped by those.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Brian on 2014-02-06, 20:10:54
And rightly so since it really could be either one. ;)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-06, 20:15:50
Sirs Ian & Brian, and Douglas many thanks...was hoping you'd chime in with something like this.  A great start!  From these images, what I need is:

1 - a full hauberk, w/integral mittens or fingers/hands - looks like anywhere from mid-thigh to knee length should be fine w/integral mail coif;
2 - maile chausses - lace up in the back would probably be more form fitting and look tighter (easier than having the tailored stocking)
3 - helm; the 1250 image looks like a salt shaker style- its either that, conical w/nasal or an early pot helm (one of the faceplate ones without the lower neck)
4 - full length surcoat - when did they first start showing up, 1225 onward?  Silk, linen or wool?  The plate from 1225 they look knee length, but the 1250 plate (thought that was supposed to be Baldwin I, is that not so?) it looks ankle length.  Ankle length would suit me because then I could cheat a bit and just have chausses from the knee down.  With such a long surcoat the knees wouldn't necessarily be seen (altho I might go with a simple cop to keep up appearances).

In some of the images it looks like there's either a textile border at the bottom of the hauberk, or is that the ubiquitous 'supertunic' I have seen mention of?

Also, since I can't tell- would the swordbelt have buckle and strap-end or would it be the tied kind?  I am shooting for 1250-1299 timeframe.  I know that's a pretty big chunk of time w/regard to advancements.

Nevermind, I see on the last two effigies they're sporting buckles and straps- and what looks like tooling/decoration on the belts- in Gilbert's place, both the shield strap/guige and swordbelt appear to be decorative.  The last 1250 image...is that a dual belt suspension/rig I'm seeing?  What's that thing wrapped around the head?

If that covers all outer wear, let us move onto what's beneath.  I'll probably go w/linen for the braies, undertunic (supertunic over top of that?), under chausses...would I have worn any padding on the legs?  I've been seeing a good number of gamboised-style cuisses but am wondering if maybe that's later on.

What about head coverings?  Linen coif the only option?  I wonder if they ever used leather for a coif, not the armored kind?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-02-06, 21:31:49
Which part of the century are you looking to do? The conical/nasal helms were all the rage at the start of the century. Around 1250, great helms were appearing, but they tended to be of the more cylindrical or wide-topped versions. The more "normal" great helms started appearing in the 1270's roughly, and then continued into the early 14th century.

"Soup can" knees were available in the later part of the century. Throughout the whole century, long surcoats were the primary outer garment.

Mail was predominantly long hauberks, plus mail chausses. Often a long tunic would be worn under the hauberk, just slightly longer than the mail (visible in the artwork that lacks a surcoat).

Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-06, 21:40:57
If I had to nail down a specific year, I'll say 1290.  That's far enough from the 14th C and yet close enough that I'm in the beginnings of the 'big deal' as it were.  Can't say I care much for the pothelms I have seen; that salt shaker you have though, that's classy looking - isn't also appropriate to the 13th?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-02-06, 21:46:11
Yeah, the 1280-1300 time frame will give you a lot of options, including the "typical" great helm style. By then, the wide-topped "proto" great helms had gone out of style, and Great Helms in general were at their height. You might be able to use a sugarloaf here as well.

However, you'll need to avoid the dome-topped (specifically the "Pembridge" style) helms, as those didn't appear until the 14th.

The style of great helm I use is very appropriate to those decades. Though of course, the likelihood is that the brass occularia that we have on modern reproductions is out of place. The available evidence suggests that the color difference was probably painted on in most cases.

My avatar picture would work for around circa 1300, but there's not much preventing it from working for around 1280 or 1290 (except the sword).
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-02-06, 21:54:07
As far as underthings go, linen braies are spot on. I've seen fabric chausses (which I'll refer to as hosen in this thread to distinguish them from armor chausses so I don't confuse myself) offered in linen, but I would recommend wool over linen; it has more stretch. Then you'd also have your padded aketon/gambeson under your hauberk.

It might be worth it to pick up English Medieval Knight 1200-1300 (http://www.amazon.com/English-Medieval-Knight-1200-1300-Warrior/dp/1841761443/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391722693&sr=8-1&keywords=english+medieval+knight+1200-1300).  I haven't read it yet so I don't know how accurate the text is (I know you have to be careful with Osprey books sometimes), but the illustrations are by Graham Turner, who is considered one of the better artists with Osprey. His illustrations break down a lot of the gear rather nicely. It also has a bunch of good photographs of effigies and such.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Ian on 2014-02-06, 23:48:17
Well, for 1290-1300 disregard a lot of my opening post... lemme refine it a bit
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Ian on 2014-02-07, 00:08:25
Plate bits are a lot more common that late in the century than before.

Here's a fellow with center creased knees dated 1289.  He still  has a lot of kit that's recognizable earlier in the century.  Maille head to toe with integrated hands and feet, and probably coif, with plate knee augmentation.  Also note the smaller heater shield compared to shields earlier in the century.  Also of high importance on this effigy is the surcoat style.  I call it a mullet surcoat... short in the front and long in the back!  Ha... anyway, it's an English style I believe:

(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/roger_de_trumpington_s33_r580_large.jpg)

I pulled this one only because of the helm.  It's a Dargen style great helm, very appropriate for this period:
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/unknown_humez_s82_r1459_large.jpg)

From the 1282-1300 Manusciprt Lancelot du Lac again we see the Dargen Pommern style great helm being worn:
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/215-1_large.jpg)

One thing I'm noticing on FRENCH effigies that I'm not noticing on English, is that the French are wearing those shoulder thingies, that really weren't armor, they seem to just display heraldy:
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/renaud_de_la_tournelle_s115_r2063_large.jpg)

In summary:

1. Maille head to toe, integrated coif/hands/feet.  Unsure if chausses are stocking or lace-up by this time with greater frequency, both probably exist.
2. Long surcoat, option to go with the mullet (silk or wool is probably best (wool is WAY less expensive))
3. Great helm of Dargen style
4. heater shield
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Ian on 2014-02-07, 00:18:38
Oh... and welcome to the dark side.... ;-)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-02-07, 00:53:39
muahahhahha
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2014-02-07, 03:48:56
"Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen."
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-02-07, 04:00:34
One thing I'm noticing on FRENCH effigies that I'm not noticing on English, is that the French are wearing those shoulder thingies, that really weren't armor, they seem to just display heraldy:

Ailettes. :)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-07, 04:16:53
Did they hav sugar loafs in the early 13th century?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-02-07, 04:32:10
Sugarloaf helms seem to have started appearing in the last few decades of the 13th century. The pic that Sir Ian posted of Roger de Trumpington (i.e. this one here (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/roger_de_trumpington_s33_r580_large.jpg)) shows what I believe to be an early sugarloaf, or something very similar.

And I just noticed: is he also wearing ailettes, or is that just some kind of decorative background?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-07, 04:40:12
Well, I guess now I am 13th century knight. Douglas let us switch gear for a few months. I want to be a late 12th century and early 13th knight.
You can also replace all my gear while your borrowing it too.
Then we can trade back. Lol.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-02-07, 04:55:00
Heh, I'm not even in the right period my own darn self. I'm sort of a "the entire 13th century exploded on me and I picked up whatever wasn't covered in peasant guts." I have early period stuff, late period stuff...I'm a mess. ;D
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-07, 15:08:34
Lord Rodney...lol - is it weird that I "heard" the voice as I read that?

I'm not quite at the threshold but I'm walking up to the door...thanks for the bit about the shield (and all the rest) Sir Ian.  Would it be safe to say that there were no heaters in the Holy Land?  That'll just mean I'll need a new shield for my Templar persona and will need to repaint the old one into something more appropriate.  I do like that Dargen helm...well, the only one I've ever seen is the one done by Royal Oak Armoury; I'm assuming it is up to LH snuff?

Douglas, hard to tell whether those are supposed to be ailettes or not...I'd say no, only because they were heraldic in purpose so it wouldn't make sense to represent the backs of them, you know what I mean?  Also, is it artistic license or was Trumpington's helm really big enough to almost encase his shoulders in it as well?

Thanks for all the good stuff guys, I'm stoked!  I'm hoping to debut this project at MDRF; I don't think I'll be able to get it all together in time for VARF.  Would love to, but I don't know...

And I just thought of something else; is there any evidence of blackened or darkened armor (other than rust) recorded during this period shortly before the 14th?  I'd hate to go thru the trouble only to find its a 'mafia' thing.  ;)

Oh and...do any of you have a suggestion as to which sword or sword type I should get?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Brian on 2014-02-07, 15:39:01
One thing I'm noticing on FRENCH effigies that I'm not noticing on English, is that the French are wearing those shoulder thingies, that really weren't armor, they seem to just display heraldy:

Ailettes. :)

I was under the impression the 'jury' was still out on them being just for show or real armor - i.e. precursors to spaulders?  ???
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-02-07, 15:43:43
Oh and...do any of you have a suggestion as to which sword or sword type I should get?

Oakeshott type XII, XIII, and XIV would all work for the period, I believe. You're just a hair early for a type XV, but not by much.

This would include Albions such as:

Single-hand:  Knight, Sheriff, Yeoman, Sovereign
Longswords:  Baron, Duke, Steward, Count
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-07, 16:08:33
Isn't that odd- Albion does not have a type XIII in their line up.  Well, what's not to love in that selection, right?  They're swords, I'm partial to all of them.  lol

The Sheriff, Yeoman or Sovereign would be best because either one of those could carry me into the 14th if/when I decide to go there...but part of the fun of moving on up through the ages is the necessity of a new sword, right?

So, Knight it is! 

What about heraldry and heraldry colors?  Will my current coat of arms be considered out of date or fashion by the 1290s?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-02-07, 16:17:02

The simplicity of your Heraldry is very good for earlier in the century, but I'd say you're fine. Inherited arms could still be fairly simple, though a lot of the newer arms would be just starting to get more complex. It didn't really explode until deeper in the 14th, just like the armor, so I think you're probably OK.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-07, 16:24:45
Ah good, that's a load off my mind there.  I'm attached to them as they are...
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-02-07, 16:27:58
On Facebook SCA group I saw this type of helm for 400 bucks...looks pretty...I think this is 13th Century no?

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/1780633_628317360556195_1892385271_n.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/1010621_627349247319673_891233915_n.jpg)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2014-02-07, 19:55:38
Look for the Zweihammer one if you can find it used.

Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Ian on 2014-02-07, 20:01:36
Off the top of my head, the helm Belemrys linked is too early for the impression you're after Sir William.  A sugarloaf or dargen style helm would be appropriate.  And yes, the Royal Oak Armoury version of the Dargen or Madeln helm are both appropriate and both up to LH snuff.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-02-07, 20:28:24

Right, that one is more of an early 13th century design. The great helms superseded those flat tops with the open backs.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-07, 21:31:39
Not to mention, that is a nice helm Belemrys, but it is SCA style so it wouldn't suit for LH.  I'm inclined more toward the Dargen helm because I just like the lines- and I think Sir Edward's got one and its a real dandy; that it's LH snuff is perfect.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-02-07, 22:02:16
Oh don't get me wrong no need for heavy helmet if you arent going to fight in it..and it generally looks a lot nicer when made for LH and not munitions...
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Mike W. on 2014-02-08, 00:26:49
Another source you may wish peruse through for valuable info is the Maciejowski Bible. It's got great depictions of 13th century knights, armor, and soft kits.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-08, 03:54:06
Another sword that's an albion, and slit cheaper is the squire a single handed sword.

Off the top of my head, the helm Belemrys linked is too early for the impression you're after Sir William.  A sugarloaf or dargen style helm would be appropriate.  And yes, the Royal Oak Armoury version of the Dargen or Madeln helm are both appropriate and both up to LH snuff.

Do you think sugar loaf might be ok, say kings crusade era? Just early 13th in general.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-02-08, 03:59:21
Sugarloafs are decidedly late 13th. At the start of the 13th, it was conical/nasal helms, plus flat-top "cap" style helms. Those evolved to have faceplates, but were still open at the sides and back. By the middle of the century, the early types of great helms took over (Mac Bible, for instance). Around the 1270s or so, the more "modern" great helms took over, and shortly after the sugarloafs came on the scene. What's interesting to note is that the sugarloafs appear to be almost like a fad, because the regular great helms stuck around longer, well into the 14th, evolving into the dome-topped great helms that were worn over an inner steel arming cap.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-08, 04:16:00
Sugarloafs are decidedly late 13th. At the start of the 13th, it was conical/nasal helms, plus flat-top "cap" style helms. Those evolved to have faceplates, but were still open at the sides and back. By the middle of the century, the early types of great helms took over (Mac Bible, for instance). Around the 1270s or so, the more "modern" great helms took over, and shortly after the sugarloafs came on the scene. What's interesting to note is that the sugarloafs appear to be almost like a fad, because the regular great helms stuck around longer, well into the 14th, evolving into the dome-topped great helms that were worn over an inner steel arming cap.


Ya I had forgotten how long normal great helms were used. Still I love sugar loafs, I guess if I get a Teutonic surcoat I'll go for that late 13th look.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-02-08, 14:28:44
go ponder over th3 75 years of the great helm page
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-08, 16:36:59
go ponder over th3 75 years of the great helm page

Hmm?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-02-08, 16:44:35
http://www.liebaart.org/helm/ (http://www.liebaart.org/helm/)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Patrick on 2014-02-08, 18:30:12
Leibert will be your best friend for this era.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-02-08, 20:46:03
http://www.liebaart.org/naviga_e.htm (http://www.liebaart.org/naviga_e.htm)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-09, 16:18:12
Thanks for the link!

Btw I've been talking with ulric about mail in the 13th century.
I really want full round rivet mail, but he tells me to get the rearranging mail for that century.
Did they have full round rivet mail in the late 13th century?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2014-02-10, 02:41:46
I reenact the 13th century pretty well and have pics of my kit all throughout this whole site. However the guy to ask for that would be Joe Metz who has his Flickr album. He's the one who basically inspired how I wanted to do my kit, as theres many similarities between his kit and mine though I would say his is probably better than mine we're pretty close and similar with what we used.
Heres a pic of him and I with me in a nearly complete kit, only thing missing was a sword and thats only cause I didnt have the belt, so I used a mace instead, at the moment I do have a sword belt of the 13th century with an older 12th century sword being used in the late 13th.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/10596356694/#in/set-72157637221932746/lightbox/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/10596356694/#in/set-72157637221932746/lightbox/)
As what Ian posted with the knee cops and shynbalds being used in the mid 13th I went that route because I couldnt get my chausses on myself as they were tie in the back and they were too big. I am currently working on trying to tailor the feet, I sealed the backs up with riveted links to convert them to full leg ones as they were a bit oversized on my legs. Thats what Joe did with his too which him and I being nearly the same size and build worked for both of us, not sure if it would work if you're anybit bigger so I'd suggest full leg ones anyway if thats what you want. Tie in the back are simply less convenient.

Helmets wise I would suggest a great helm similar to ours though I own 2 rather fine ones I didnt want a cheap heavy GDFB one as I don't plan to do any fighting in my kit apart from cutting demos. Royal Oak armory's great helms are probably the best you can get on this side of the pond their dargen is the best replica I have seen, I also own the Madeln Great Helm as well.

Maille wise I would suggest round riveted round ring with alternating flat punched rings, as thats what most of Europe used, if you're doing Germany like I am then you can get away with Wedge riveted which first appeared there in either the 1220s or 1230s, it did NOT spread outwards till about 1300. Avoid flat ring round riveted as that stuff is rather inferior in quality and looks nothing like the real stuff. Wedge however I have seen examples similar, round ring round riveted I also have.

Shields wise you can get away with a kite early on or a "converted kite" similar to my teutonic shield. Later in the century they got smaller due to plate becoming a bit more dominant, you wont see it in many art examples but in effigies there are examples of early coat of plates as early as 1250, I wouldnt recommend it if you're not used to tons of weight, I can wear my maille just fine but coat of plates over maille is rather heavy honestly. Most of the visby armor dates to about 1290 and was long outdated in that era as Sweden was quite poor.

Swords wise you can get away with anything between a type X and a type XIV for the 13th though germany tended to hold onto older designs more along with crescent pommels which are hard to find in modern repros.

Hands armor wise both mittens and gloves made of maille existed. I use gloves but plan to eventually make integrated mittens for my hauberk.

Coifs were mostly integrated until the later half when separate ones started making a comeback. I use a separate one that dates to the early 14th century. Joe Metz uses a separate one too but tucks it in to give the illusion of an integrated one, I'd suggest doing that and you HAVE to tailor them to make them "look right".

Hope this info helps, this is most of what I know about the 13th century it being my period of interest the most.
 
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-10, 03:30:05
Actually all that really did it help. But my question still stands.
Did they have full round rivet mail?

I also found out the other day why the word chain mail started being used.
In this link.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.php (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.php)

It's very interesting.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-02-10, 03:59:23
What do you mean specifically by full round rivet mail? Round rings and round rivets? Round rings and wedge rivets?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2014-02-10, 06:20:07
Fully riveted maille didnt really exist until at least 1300 in case you're wondering. I wouldnt go after flat ring round riveted either because that stuff is junk, I had some and the inside of the maille is scratchy, round ring riveted is much smoother and wedge riveted is basically flat inside. But I am telling you the half solid stuff is what they used.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Ian on 2014-02-10, 19:17:08
But I am telling you the half solid stuff is what they used.

Yep, for crusader period the standard answer is alternating riveted and punched rings.  Fully riveted became popular some time in the 14th century from what we know.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Mike W. on 2014-02-10, 19:38:52
Wasn't round wire dome riveted with solid punched flat rings used during the 11th century? I've been trying to find out what type of maille was used when.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2014-02-11, 12:37:21
11th century you're looking at round riveted round ring with alternating flat punched rings as well. Anywhere between Roman and to the early 1200s almost all maille was made that way. Some was smaller rings some was bigger but they all are pretty much the combo of round ring round riveted with flat punched rings. Thats part of the reason I sold my entire fully riveted maille set off and exchanged it for half solid though I went with wedge riveted cause I couldnt find round ring riveted. Though my coif is fully riveted it's a rare Erik Schmid coif so I am keeping and using it anyway. I would suggest all the best stuff's maille because it's both cheap and more accurate to the early medieval. For the later period I would suggest GDFB Wedge or Icefalcon wedge riveted. Though for a German impression you can get away with wedge as long as your kits above either the 1220s or 1230s.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-15, 03:18:26
Mwahhaahaha! I looked every were on the internet. Real archeological finds of full round rivet mail armor existing in even the 12th century.
Note:it is Norman mail, on first link. Second like is website listing pics of different findings of mail in a lot of century's.
3rd link is full round Ivey 13th century Viking mail.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bayeux_haubert.JPG (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bayeux_haubert.JPG)
https://sites.google.com/site/archoevidence/home/mail-armour (https://sites.google.com/site/archoevidence/home/mail-armour)
http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_mail.htm (http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_mail.htm)
This last link is more 12th circa mail.

http://www.djurfeldt.com/patrik/kungslena.html (http://www.djurfeldt.com/patrik/kungslena.html)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-02-15, 20:43:47
Good links. I can't see enough detail on the wikipedia picture, but good info on the other links.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2014-02-15, 21:54:10
One of those maille examples on that viking site resembles mine quite a bit. The flat ring wedge riveted one I mean.
(http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/pix/mail_no35.jpg)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-15, 22:05:19
Now that there is proof of full round rivet mail in those centurys.
I will go buy it.
Im very very happy.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-19, 18:00:11
When you say 'full round rivet' am I right in thinking you mean round links (as opposed to flat)?
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-02-19, 19:47:52
When you say 'full round rivet' am I right in thinking you mean round links (as opposed to flat)?

As Sir William said, there is round ring and flat ring. Round rivet and wedge rivet. You can have round ring round rivet, flat ring round rivet, flat ring wedge rivet... I haven't seen any repro round ring wedge rivet but there is some that looks to be that style historically.

Some historical maille is also "flat round ring" where the ring is neither round nor flat, but rounded on the sides and flat on the top and bottom. It gets complicated. :)
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-19, 19:58:03
I've seen examples of that last one, Sir James...and those flattened rounds looked stamped with letters of some sort; think I saw both a Muslim and a Russian example of such work, on the AA.

Now, I've another question- footwear.  How accurate to the 13th would this be?

http://www.bootsbybohemond.net/index.php/shop-ii/product/6-medieval-high-buckle-boot (http://www.bootsbybohemond.net/index.php/shop-ii/product/6-medieval-high-buckle-boot)

I hope they are, because I really hate short boots.
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-02-19, 20:52:47
Round ring. Sorry
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Sir William on 2014-02-19, 21:35:24
Post pics once you've gotten your maille!
Title: Re: I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight
Post by: Ser Cor Volaire on 2018-01-23, 02:58:37
Sir William,
Any further updates on your project?