ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2010-10-28, 20:47:43
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I've heard it said that compassion can be shown in giving a drink of water to a thirsty friend, but true honor can be found in giving a drink of water to a thirsty enemy.
Honor is a nebulous concept, as it has taken many forms throughout the ages. For instance, during the renaissance there were complex rules about the use of duels to settle matters of honor, much of which centered around attempting to disprove a lie about you, which could tarnish your honor. This form of honor is an intangible quality, like reputation, but internal as well.
However the word honor also describes one's own behavior, particularly in how you behave when no one sees, or in how you treat an adversary.
Honor is something that many people associate with knights, almost to a fault. That is, often times "honor" is not thought of as a common trait today, and instead is often relegated to "a nobler time". However, I don't think the need for honor has ever diminished, and there's as great a need for it today as there ever was before. We tend to see severe lack of it our politicians, and some large businesses, where greed often can take center stage.
What do you think are some good examples of honor today? And historically? How does it fit into our framework of chivalry?
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Ten views and no takers. Okay, I'll go first. I'm hard-pressed to find a good example of honor today. I'm not saying they aren't out there, they just aren't high profile enough to hit the radar. As far as historical examples, I'll offer up the Roman Cincinnatus. During a time of crisis, Cincinnatus was asked by the Roman Republic to take on the roll of dictator and commander of the army. Sixteen days later, after having routed the republic's enemies and with the army still flush with the victory, Cincinnatus returned power back to the senate and went back to his estate. Could you see any modern leader thrust into the role of military dictator ceeding power so willingly?
Sir Edward asks how honor fits into our code of chivalry, and I submit this: If Truth is the bones of chivalry and Humility the sinew that hold it together (as Sir Brian so eliquantly put it), Honor is the muscle that sets it in motion. Honor is active, it about how one carries himself through the various episodes of his life. A person can be honest, and humble, but not necessarilly be honorable. There may be a dozen "Truths" to a situation, but the honorable man knows there is only one that is in the spirit of chivalry and acts accordingly--regardless of who is watching, the difficulty involved, or the results to himself.
The modern world tends to relegate Honor to a "different time" because deep down, it is inconvenient, or is viewed with suspicion. Honorable behavior is all to often a facade for acquiring power, or to use as spin control. It seems the more squeaky clean someone is nowadays, the darker the secrets they're hiding. We live in age of cynicism where people tend to behave as if the world is too messed up to change so they might as just go for theirs and damn anying else. Too often our only barometer of success is material wealth and status, and people who play by the rules are chumps to be taken advantage of. We've even killed the knight, reducing him down to a barbarous savage preying on the peasantry, adhering to a chivalric code simply to profit by way of ransom. What society fails to grasp, is honor--chivalry--is an ideal that can never be lived up to. It is a quest undertaken for the journey, not the destination. All who take the path will fall victim to close scrutiny and should not be derided for it. It is the setting out on the path and the small changes it makes in us that will ultimately make changes in the world.
Hope that didn't weird anyone out :-\
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well said
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Very well stated Red Knight and I like your correlation of honor being the muscle that sets chivalry in motion! :)
I often am reminded of the movie Rob Roy when Liam Neeson playing as Robert MacGregor is explaining honor to his two young sons.
“Honor is the gift that a man gives to himself” – Although a well written line from the notoriously inaccurate Hollywood movie machine, the words are nonetheless utterly true and they resonate within the very soul of everyone that longs for the days when chivalry was paramount in the bygone world.
But if I were to expand upon that explanation I would say that Respect is the very linchpin of honor:
Respect first and foremost of oneself, Respect for your peers and their honor, Respect for those in need of mercy, charity and protection. For without respect honor is but a sham and vain undertaking of ignorant juveniles at play. – The numerous duels perpetrated long after the decline of all other chivalric ideals comes to mind. ;)
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i think respect is todays word for honor. or it should be. agreed!
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I agree completely with you gentlemen. Honor without respect is mere artiface, and an excuse for base behavior in the name of chivalry.
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re reading this i do think that society thinks that honor like so many other chivalry ideals are something that are out of reach so they don't try. respect/honor being one of the ones most wanted and claimed to have been slighted with. people fail to see that baby steps get them in the correct direction just as fast as giant leaps. having the honor to fess up and leave your insurance info when you back up into an unmanned parked car or to simply tell the truth without fear etc.
wikipedia and the dictionary have so many different names for honor its crazy. but i sorta like: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honor
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To live honorably is to accept a more difficult road in life, if only because you'll be by yourself for most of the journey. As you've all stated, rather eloquently, being a man of honor is to invite ignorance and ridicule- two defense mechanisms baser folk use to deride something they cannot understand.
Something so little as correcting a cashier when they give back too much change can cause the people around you to give you a second look- and cynicism being as rampant as it is, they all question the why of it. Nevermind that an honorable man also sleeps well at night- he fears no reprisal because he's done nothing wrong. At least, that's how I see it.
Its easy to sit back and be a casual observer, give in to lower instincts simply because other sheep have told you thus, and you've witnessed it for yourself. One need not be a crusader in all things, but it is important that one understands the need to fight for what you believe in...should you decide not to, you can blame no one but your own self when things go awry that probably could've been avoided had you taken a stand when the opportunity came. This can apply to many things, I'm not speaking on any one instance.
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To live honorably is to accept a more difficult road in life, if only because you'll be by yourself for most of the journey.
That's why I'm always hanging out here!
Something so little as correcting a cashier when they give back too much change can cause the people around you to give you a second look- and cynicism being as rampant as it is, they all question the why of it.
That seriously happened to me over the weekend, and in the few moments it took to make the correction, I heard multiple grumblings behind me along the lines of "Just take it and get moving." Yes it might have been expedient, but it would not have been right. The young lady at the checkout thanked me, because it saved her from having her drawer come up short at the end of the night. They may be big, or they may be small, but there are always consequences to our actions.
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Agreed; I had the same experience yesterday at a local deli- the owner is a genial guy, made a simple mistake and I corrected him on it. Granted, he probably wouldn't have gotten in much trouble being the owner and all but still- it was the principle of the matter. Let the sheep continue bleating, its what they're best at.
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Well spoken everyone.
I see honor as being ready and able to tell right from wrong, at all times, and make the choice to do right. Not just when it is convenient or beneficial to yourself, but particularly when it is not. It's not just about reputation, but also what you do when no one knows or sees. It's holding yourself to a higher standard of being fair, just, and fighting against evil and injustice, large or small.
I had almost forgotten-- Sir Brian and I were talking on one of the last faire weekends about Saladin during the crusades. The leader of the Saracen forces, he was a man with an amazing sense of honor. I wish I could remember most of the historical examples, but it's been quite some time since I read about it. I think I need a refresher soon. :)
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In reading Steven Runciman's the Third Crusade, dry as it was, there are direct references to Saladin, his wisdom, his sense of chivalry, but not much about the man. Just from what I myself have read, Saladin was, quite possibly, the greatest man of his day, with whom honor and integrity were firmly ingrained.
He's on my research list as well...Runciman made no bones about some of the more barbarous acts of the Crusaders, and made mention that Saladin's camp did not respond in kind as far as cruelty went.
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What's also interesting is that Saladin also found European knighthood to be fascinating, and wanted learn all about it and be knighted himself. I think someone did knight him eventually, though he certainly was well regarded as a chivalrous knight across Europe. Again, I forget the details.
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It'd be good if you could dig that one up...do you find it hard to avoid romanticizing this or that one based on personal like/dislike? I admit to that particular issue...if I see someone as a hero, they get all of the assorted positives that are normally associated with heroes, whether or not they directly apply is always something I have to think on later.
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Yeah, apparently Saladin's virtues were exaggerated a bit during the Victorian era's medieval revival, just like the overall image of the "knight in shining armor". However, since there are a lot of historical records of his chivalric and honorable acts, as well as praise from his enemies in Europe, there's a lot of truth behind it.
But you're right, it's hard to separate out what it true and what isn't, when reputations take on a life of their own.
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I was giving this some thought...most if not all of us are familiar with or aware of the HBO series Rome, right? In Caesar's Comentarii de Bello Gallico, he mentions two soldiers by name, Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo, but not much else about them. The series took their particular viewpoints regarding how the world was unfolding around them and I got to thinking...Vorenus was portrayed as a stoic, by-the-books Roman 2nd centurion while Pullo was portrayed as akin to a pirate, fighting, drinking and women were his vices and he indulged them quite a bit...but what if they got it wrong, you know? What if there roles were switched or worse yet, they were some sort of vagabond-type soldiers who plundered indiscriminately and did all sorts of barbaric things that the Romans were notorious for against their enemies?
It is said that history is written by the victor; I have noticed in my research that English Kings, for instance, share a lot of the same attributes, if their individual descriptions are meant to be believed. Just food for thought; and due diligence is of minor value with regard to the actual truth because no one who lived then is alive now to tell about it.
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I was watching A Knight's Tale again today, and there was a scene that brought this thread to mind. In the first joust between Ulrich (William) and Coleville (Edward), after the first pass, Edward approaches William and says "Sir Ulrich, I am done. I have never not finished, and I wish to maintain my honor.". After that, they both stop jousting, while William could have easily won. He took the honorable path by showing his opponent mercy, though I'm a bit confused to call that honor or mercy...
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Had they been involved in actual combat, it would have been mercy. As they were using arms of courtsey, the only thing to lose (aside from arms, armour, and horse) would have been honor. Just my take on the scene.
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I still see that scene as firmly being an act of honor. William could have beaten him, and would have, but chose to sacrifice a sure victory to allow Edward to leave the field with his dignity intact. I see that as very honorable.
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Agreed; as he says later on in the film- you compete when you should retire, and that is knightly too. It was a knightly act, letting him retire w/his honor intact.
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Sometimes old discussions, like fond memories need to be dusted off and brought back into the light. I happened upon this website:
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/10/01/manly-honor-part-i-what-is-honor/ (http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/10/01/manly-honor-part-i-what-is-honor/)
This is a link to a seven part dissertation on Honor. A very informative read that I found myself nodding in agreement with on many portions of Part 1: What is honor and I’m looking forward to reading the rest. :)
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Nice! I'll take a look.
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I am inclined to agree with all of you on most things. But, after all, isn't that why we congregate here?
To add to this, I must say that chivalry, honor, truth, respect, integrity, humility, courage, are all words that are defined by the person perceiving them.
I have seen much honor in my enemy when at times I could not see it in my friends.
I also believe that honor still exists as long as people BELIEVE it still exists. For example, we all like to moan and groan about the Hollywood "machine" and about how "out of touch with reality" some of its celebrities are. But despite what the writers, directors, or actors may have wished to be perceived, isn't in the eyes of the beholder as to what is true or not, and therefore what is honorable?
Kingdom of Heaven, which has been well respected and equally admonished by historians, nerds, re-enactors, fans, and critics alike, has very good lessons to be learned. If one sees them as such. Same for The Last Samurai, which the director wholeheartedly admits to "Romanticizing Bushido much in the same way as Dumas romanticized Chivalry with his D'Artagnan trilogy." Both movies have brought me comfort in times of need, regardless of what others thought of them.
I also believe honor is around us each and every day if we choose to see it. There is a little boy in our neighborhood who is mentally and physically handicapped. It's sad that most of the children in the area tend to avoid him. Except for two. Two brothers who play with him, whether the others wish to or not. Yesterday the older brother basically went full speed into a wall, while at the same time, the handicapped one just apparently fell. Both were upset. I ended up checking on both of them. Both were alright in the end. It was interesting though, the older brother, who did have a nice little battle scar from his ordeal in physics, saw the handicapped boy appearing to be hurt. After I told him I was sure his fingers weren't broken and that he'd heal in time, he immediately went to that other boys' aid. He then told me with gestures how the other "wasn't all there" but in a polite way. I told him I knew and also knew the others parents. He then, even with the pain in his arm, which we all know at ten years old, blood, scabs, and cracked knuckles can almost be the brink of shock, helped the handicapped boy up, put him on his bike and helped him ride and then they both continued to play as boys do.
One of the other kids came out and started making fun of the handicapped boy. The older brother, and his younger brother too, immediately verbally attacked the bully. He then had the gall to call them out, and ask why they defended the "f*kn retard" and yes, this 9-11 year old used that language! They both, together immediately responded "because he can't himself. And he is a great guy once you take the time to know him."
I had to step in, although most times I just sit back and enjoy watching the kids play as I smoke my pipe. I asked the bully, pretending to side with him, which apartment he lived in, which was the one I thought, and had him lead me home and away from the "hopeless." With that too, I winked at the two brothers, who have gotten to know me, and my little two year old over the past couple weeks since they moved here, so they knew they were fine. I took him home, explained what had happened outside. His family said, and I quote "well, boys are boys, what the f*k are we to do?" As a side note, that boy, the bully has a younger brother about my girl's age, who on numerous occasions has been left outside un-attended to where I've almost called CPS. I immediately looked the parent in the eye, and replied, "and to think, my friends, my brothers, sacrificed so much, so you could have the freedom to believe that" and walked off.
I then walked up to the other three, asked how they were and if they were still having fun. Which of course, they all were. The two brothers' dad came out, and I finally got to meet him. I told him "you should be proud of your boys, they're learning well." He just smirked after the shock settled, and replied "well, they still have much to go."
Honor is still around, chivalry is still around. The key is if we choose to see it, accept it, and be a part to it, and make it an integral part of our lives. Those two boys, they'll never let it die whether they know the terms yet or not.
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I've seemed to run low on spoons for replying to this via writing. Can I do a vid?
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I've seemed to run low on spoons for replying to this via writing. Can I do a vid?
If you have the battery life & memory cards, by all means. :)
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Do a vid? Why not?
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Honor is... Right thought & right action. It's what you do when things aren't easy. It's your name. It's who you are when no one is there to see it.
It's what you feel leaving you when you do wrong things and before you feel bad. It's what you know you need to fix before you can move on when that happens.
It's that soft voice from within speaking to you that comforts you in the dark when all have left. It keeps you warm then, helps you stand upright and fight for everything that's good and true.
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Well said!
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So in modern terms then ... if 'honor' is "right thought & right action" then that must make it dishonor if it is "left thought & left action." Now that just proves 'conservatives' are the very definition of honor & good-intention & 'liberals' are nothing but dishonorable curs full of malcontent. LOL ;D *APPLAUSE* Thank you. thank you. I'll be here all week folks.
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Personal honor is as important today as ever it was. Unfortunately there appears to be fewer and fewer people who reality check their own. In the past the Church did a great job of instilling a real sense of it through the habit of reflection of conscience and mandatory Confession. I've lived under 2 different honor code systems at military schools. The code is imposed on new recruits because a basic set of rules is necessary for a code to work. One schools honor code in particular is famous, and rightfully so, because the graduates from this school are actively recruited by the combat arms branches for one reason: You can trust everything they say to be the absolute fact. In combat this is obviously an important character trait. The code is simple and has worked perfectly for more than 150 years: "A cadet does not lie, cheat, steal, nor tolerate those who do." The word lie is expanded to include quibbling. (That would mean nary a man would be left standing if this honor code was imposed upon the U S Congress.) The code is not instilled but rather implanted in this manner...first infringement and your ass is kicked out of the place in the middle of the night. It works great!
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I'm wondering Grand Master Garland, if you ever walked the "Long Grey Line," or were a sailor like our Sir Ian?
I grew up first at St. Mary Katherine's Military School, and then Mater Dei High School. It was funny, because I couldn't believe how "lax" everything was at the high school even though it was Catholic as well. I then served, but worked for a living mind you.
I definitely feel honor today is as crucial as ever. And as others have said, it's sad to see so many who don't follow it, let alone those that make fun of it. But as one Gunnie said to me when I was very young, "it takes only a spark to drown out the darkness" and within this group, I see a good many sparks.
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I agree with you Br. Patricius. Few in our time follow the path of honor. For men are like sheep who with rare exception follow the flock and that flock today is not only led but also taught by those who are not true friends. Men first must look for the truth, but so few do today; and if they find truth, so few have the necessary grace to realize it; and finally, that very remnant after having searched and found truth must be willing to overthrow negative preconditioning, and possess the courage to commit their lives to it. On this very matter:
I've been interested in Yeoman Thorsteinn's good works on the disorder of asperges which he lives with and in the positive response to his postings from the forum members. I would like to say here that we Knights of St. John are engaged in developing an advocacy program for those who live with disorders of the brain. We choose to identify the root causative factors almost exclusively to be faulty utilization of endogenous monoamine neurotransmitters rather than as what most professionals in the field pin as the source: the vagaries of "behavioral health". In other words we are focusing on advocacy which searches in all cases for a clinical etiology and the effective neuropharmacology to be applied for each case.
I did walk the path of the "Long Grey Line", but only for two years. My quest for the truth had previously begun at the VMI where the rat line instilled in me that particular form of honor of which I previously spoke. It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path. God's will be done. 8)
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It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path. God's will be done. 8)
I'm sorry that you feel this way about those of us on active duty service to our country. I personally don't find it hard to reconcile the things I may not agree with in the military with my personal honor.
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It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path. God's will be done. 8)
I'm sorry that you feel this way about those of us on active duty service to our country. I personally don't find it hard to reconcile the things I may not agree with in the military with my personal honor.
Nor would I think that hired knights of the past would find difficulty in serving a king, baron or otherwise, while retaining their personal honor. It is possible to do things you don't agree with, considering the request, while not dishonoring yourself. To borrow a line from A Knight's Tale:
Jocelyn: If you would prove your love, you should do your worst.... Instead of winning to honor me with your fine reputation, I want you to lose.... To show your obedience to your lover and not to yourself.
Does doing this lessen his honor (by not doing what he wants)? Would winning increase his honor by disrespecting his lover's request?
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It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path. God's will be done. 8)
I'm sorry that you feel this way about those of us on active duty service to our country. I personally don't find it hard to reconcile the things I may not agree with in the military with my personal honor.
Sir Ian, I've said it before but it bears repeating: Thank you for your service.
Standing by an oath sworn (in this case the defense of country) is inextricably tied to personal honor. If a order is not amoral or against the rules of war, there is no dishonor in doing one's duty, regardless of personal opinion concerning policy. That, IMHO, should be proof enough that the members of our armed forces are NOT "federal mercenaries".
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Honor is a deeply personal trait that has profound impact of those who take an Oath to serve, whether it be for justice, a military, a country, or even a leader. It defines in part the character of the person who takes it upon themselves to live up to the meaning of its virtue and value (which can significantly vary in both personal & professional viewpoints). What is important about honor is that it is lived up to regardless of the circumstances that even at times includes making sacrifices that are above and beyond our own self-serving interests.
Those of us that serve others by an Oath know what it means to have honor & as such, it is a distinct part of that person's character. To honor the words and meaning of the office you hold, in itself defines you hold honor in your words and in itself, makes you a person of honor. One does not need to be a hero to have honor, but by simply living up to its ideal, you have obtained the meaning of the virtue. I salute those who serve with honor, and will sacrifice the same to serve them as my brethren in spite of those who would offend them.
Honor is sacrifice above all and selflessness in service; not selfishness in one's actions.
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Is my decison 30 years ago not to become a "federal mercenary" a cause for you all to personalize the term? Don't confuse my experiences with your own. The majority of men I knew in the service weren't there for honor or country but did do their duty under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. At that time most of my classmates at West Point were there for a free, first class education which they paid off with 5 years in service. In the SFGA just about everyone I knew was there to get paid for parachuting out of airplanes. Sorry, but that's just my experience. I've served 8 years in the Army. Moreover, I was a private mercenary for another 8 years so in regards to Sir Patrick's comment, since I was one, the term mercenary has no negative connotation to me. Maybe you guys have other, more esoteric experiences in the military but those are mine. And then there is the matter that for senior military officers personal honor can and is sometimes trumped by political orders from both the US Congress and the US President. This is a well honed tradition of the U S military command structure and frankly it isn't working well considering the current administration in power in WDC. Consider Operation Keelhaul, even the Benghazi station crisis. A friend just came back from Afghanistan: Google "Afghanistan" and "pedophilia". Is there honor in supporting a regime that sanctions institutionalized pedophilia? Not in my world. 8)
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Grand Master,
with all due respect, I think what we all took in some manner or form personally, was just the way you posted It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path. God's will be done. 8)
I know plenty of devout men and women who have taken the Long Grey Line and are serving honorably for their God first, country second. I also know plenty who believe that the term "God, Country, Corps" is a synonym and that in their lives, they cannot have one without the other two. That it took the Corps to understand their God, and respect their country. That came from a man who literally was told "serve or jail." And in his service decided after active duty to continue to serve as a mentor at our military academy, serving the youngest to help them learn from his mistakes rather than follow that life accidentally or on purpose.
A lot of members within this forum, are active duty military. A lot of members within this forum are veterans. A few of us, are even disabled veterans. I know others, just by what they have posted must be some form of either state, county, local, or federal Law Enforcement.
To top that off, And then there is the matter that for senior military officers personal honor can and is sometimes trumped by political orders from both the US Congress and the US President. This is a well honed tradition of the U S military command structure and frankly it isn't working well considering the current administration in power in WDC. Consider Operation Keelhaul, even the Benghazi station crisis. A friend just came back from Afghanistan: Google "Afghanistan" and "pedophilia". Is there honor in supporting a regime that sanctions institutionalized pedophilia? Not in my world. 8)
to put it plainly, quite a few of us know our oaths, and we know the UCMJ. "unlawful orders" is something in there for a reason, and it can be because it strongly doesn't fit with one's personal honor code. I've personally seen a Chief Warrant Officer yell "shove it up your @$$" discretely to an officer and I thought I was going to get it too because I was the helmsman and knew knew the officer was wrong and so obeyed the Warrant rather than the Lieutenant (O3 for the groundpounding types). But the warrant was a CWO4, 35+ years, 25+ years at sea, and was our "boats." To put it plainly it was his job to see to the safety of our ship. And I had my faith in him, as much as our Operations Officer, the LT who was wrong.
We all had a discreet coffee afterwards, on the bridge with no one else there. The op wasn't dangerous, and was fairly routine, but if we had followed Ops' orders, people would have gotten hurt. He knew it too immediately after Boats called him out on it, and actually shook my hand and said "good job" for obeying Boats.
I've seen it in other circles as well.
Basically, I think what everyone is trying to question is what you're getting at? It was through my Catholic faith that called me to a higher purpose to serve, and protect my country and defend those that couldn't defend themselves. No offense is meant by this, but to put it plainly from a cynical, often grumpy, NCO, how do you place a few bad seeds as the whole crop?!? We could easily do it back talking about the pedophiles of the Catholic Church. We could easily argue back about atrocities commited by the Holy Orders, the Hospitallers included mind you, from 1000 years ago.
I can't help but remember how you said it would be a hard time talking about Chivalry without talking about Catholicism and its place within it. As a Catholic, I understand where you're coming from. As an Anthropologist, I can't agree with it. Honor codes don't have to coincide with Religion, with a capital R because all too often those people we are meant to respect as the protectors of our faith are committing some of the worst atrocities that can be made. And yes, above all else, I feel taking advantage of anyone of a minor age, is the worst. And you can argue that I started this, and that's fine. But to be honest, you started it by placing our US Military, all of us, 100%, as "bad apples" by bringing up wrongs in Afghanistan.
War is ugly, and if the world were perfect there would be no need for it. But as St. Bernard de Clairvaux once said, in this world, we need sheepdogs to protect the sheep.
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Br. Patricius, thanks for your reply. I’m happy to explain my statements which appear to be projecting some negative connotation on our military. You are missing the point and mixing the military forces with the politics. Our military is the action arm of political decisions made in WDC and those political decisions are the source of concern for patriots serving in the military. I have always regretted not being able to continue my own career in the US military but have never regretted the difficult decision I made as a 20 year old West Point Cadet . Many of us lost friends and relatives in that war which should have been brought to a happy resolution. So I set out on a personal quest to find the reasons why so many in our country, including the politicians in WDC, were against both our warriors and against the defeat of the Communist genocide in Vietnam. I completed my quest by finding both the reasons and the proofs, eventually being elected Master of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem which struggles against these forces.
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In response to your reply, Grand Master Garland. In all orders of the Faith, regardless be they secular or lay, isn't it "one must be penitent before God?" Because I know in my Order it is.
YIS
B. Patricius
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In response to your reply, Grand Master Garland. In all orders of the Faith, regardless be they secular or lay, isn't it "one must be penitent before God?" Because I know in my Order it is.
YIS
B. Patricius
Me thinks someone has been watching re-runs of "Indiana Jones & the Last Crusade". :P
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;D
not going to lie Lord Dane, as I wrote that, I pictured Joe Metz's picture in his Templar garb kneeling on that book of faces! :D
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Brother Patricius;
I would like to offer my compliments on this comment made by you in a recent post: "I can't help but remember how you said it would be a hard time talking about Chivalry without talking about Catholicism and its place within it. As a Catholic, I understand where you're coming from. As an Anthropologist, I can't agree with it. Honor codes don't have to coincide with Religion, with a capital R because all too often those people we are meant to respect as the protectors of our faith are committing some of the worst atrocities that can be made."
As a person who is both a non Christian and and of Native American extraction I must say that this statement struck me as very well put. I was raised in a traditional way and learned the warrior path from a very young age. I have always had a code of ethics and a healthy sense of morality. Knights and their adventures were something that attracted me very early on and they had a profound effect on how I progressed as I grew older.
Honor is a very important thing to me and to many others like me who are not necessarily of the Christian faiths. I think that living in a chivalrous, gentlemanly and respectable way is a matter of the heart of a man, not particularly his brand of religious belief. There have been and still are many great fellows who I have known - of numerous different faiths - who have been an inspiration as a result of their hale behavior and deeds.
Honor and a code of chivalrous living is what drew me to this forum and to the company of all you hale gentlemen in the first place. I am a deeply spiritual person and I feel that the Creator has always guided me to be the best person I can be.
So thank you for your words. Muchly appreciated indeed.
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Is my decison 30 years ago not to become a "federal mercenary" a cause for you all to personalize the term? Don't confuse my experiences with your own.
Your decision so, of course not. However, your choice of words-
It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path.
-has obviously struck a chord. There's no personal qualifiers there- it simply says that an honorable life would be difficult to live...the implication being not just for you, but for anyone who has served, is still serving or will serve in the future. I get that this is just your experience and no one else's- it just doesn't read that way.
If I've never said it before, I am grateful to all who have served or are currently serving their country- whether or not they feel such service honorable, they've performed it and for that, I thank them.
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Well said!
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People who have no concept of honor (by not serving others) are not ones to judge those who do serve with it. Granted, we all have our own definitions of how we perceive the notion, but it is in the character of the person, the meaning of their words, and the actions they take that make them honorable. Those with honor, get my respect and gratitude. Those without it are not worthy to mention and deserve no attention.
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Excellent discussion here.
It seems to me that the ensuing contrast/comparison on the concept of honor and how that has changed (or not, depending on your view) given the shifting cultural paradigms and principally the once unbreakable linkage between religion and chivalric code -- and what the implications are for those of us now trying to define its "reinterpretation" if you will, is fascinating.
For someone interested in the topic and also working in a professional federal service called to serve the policies of all administrations with equal loyalty and dedication -- and what are the options should you find yourself on a personal level irreconciled to them -- (and raised Catholic in the south!) these all remain very real questions. It's been great to review your discussion.
For me, honor can be an empty, self-obsessed concept if not also linked to dedication, determination and integrity - the grit needed to uphold code because it is right even at the risk of self (offering that drink to your fallen enemy who could strike at you). Yet the other side of the coin must also be the willingness to stand up others - even our superiors - who would claim to speak for that same code if they be in the wrong.
Good stuff.
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For me, honor can be an empty, self-obsessed concept if not also linked to dedication, determination and integrity - the grit needed to uphold code because it is right even at the risk of self (offering that drink to your fallen enemy who could strike at you). Yet the other side of the coin must also be the willingness to stand up others - even our superiors - who would claim to speak for that same code if they be in the wrong.
Good stuff.
QFT
I often think that most people today consider the more vain version of honor rather than the selfless serving version when they argue against it.
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Garyeth, You identify a clear problem as to how one retains personal honor (as well as employment) when faced with an unethical or immoral directive. In the healthcare profession we never considered that such problems would arise but now we see them nearly every day because of the “Affordable Care Act”. Our first maxim had been Primum non nocere, "first, do no harm", but now we see directives transforming that maxim to “do nothing”. The shift from traditional Christian spiritual direction regarding morals and ethics is telling.
At one time I clearly experienced what you describe as an “empty, self-obsessed” sense of honor. I didn't like it and eventually chose the traditional Catholic Deposit of Faith to fill that void. It provided the answers to the “very real questions” you mention. For our Knights that “linkage between religion and chivalric code” has never changed and for us the Code of Christian Chivalry covers all aspects of honor:
“Thou shalt believe the teaching of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and obey all her admonitions. Thou shalt defend the Church. Thou shalt show regard for the weak and defend them. Thou shalt love the country of thy birth. Thou shalt never retreat before the Infidel. Thou shalt never tell a lie and shalt stay true to thy word. Thou shalt be generous and charitable. Thou shalt champion Goodness and Justice against evil and iniquity.”
This code has served Western Civilization well for a thousand years, regardless of what some say. And though the fashion today is for individual interpretation and “choice” in matters of ethics, morals, and even concepts like honor and chivalry, I fear for our descendants who may, as a consequence of that secular fashion, live in a much less charitable world.
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I thought I might add a question to this thread, to see if anyone would like to discuss it further. I encourage our newer forum members to read from the start, and contribute if they would like to do so.
When is honor served best, in strictly adhering to your principles, or bending them (perhaps even breaking them entirely) for the greater good? Is there ever a time when you need to put your own honor aside in order for lives to be saved, or justice to prevail?
These are meant to be tough questions. No right or wrong answers, just a topic of thought and discussion.
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Yes. In the show "Leverage" you see the good & true Boston Detective Lt. Bonano put aside his strict code of honor a bit when the Leverage crew so some shady things, even to the point of knowing that all of them are felons that now do what they do for the greater good.
Later when he is hurt they go to extreme lengths to help him when he is betrayed by LEO's and almost killed. He asks no questions knowing that he'd have to arrest them if he knew the answers.
But doesn't this idea of bending the rules go to the heart of that old geek question: Whom do you trust more? Batman or Superman?
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Wow what a discussion.
Sir Patrick,
Having read your post there may have been a reason you ended up going first. I can not disagree with anything that you have said but there one portion that I would ask you for examples.
"A person can be honest, and humble, but not necessarily be honorable.'Can you please give us an example or two of an act being "honest and humble" but not honorable.
On another point I would say to some extent a modern example of Cincinnatus would be the surrendering, voluntarily, of the near absolute power held by an American president. Every four years we elect one individual with the power most dictators only dream about. At the end of the four year period (or sometimes eight) these individual surrender that near absolute power to their successor. One second past noon on the fourth/eighth year a person who held the power to destroy cites and kill millions is reduced to the status of a citizen. Never again will they hold that power in their hands. Given the history of men and the acquisition of power it is mind boggling that none , so far, have attempted to keep it past its expiration date.
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Man, why can't you guys ask easier questions? This hurts my delicate little pea brain. ;)
In all seriousness, though. With regards to this:
Jocelyn: If you would prove your love, you should do your worst.... Instead of winning to honor me with your fine reputation, I want you to lose.... To show your obedience to your lover and not to yourself.
Does doing this lessen his honor (by not doing what he wants)? Would winning increase his honor by disrespecting his lover's request?
It brings up and interesting conundrum in my mind. On the one hand, purposely losing to prove his love would lessen — or at the very least, do nothing to improve — his overall "honor" in the eyes of the masses who probably care nothing about his love life. The public is there to see someone become a great tournament champion, not to see someone get the girl. But I think his personal honor would improve because of his selflessness.
Whereas on the other hand, winning the tournament would grant him "honor" with his countrymen, and perhaps his fellow knights and his king, but at the expense of his own personal honor. So essentially I suppose it would boil down to whether he wanted to appear honorable before a large group of people, or to sacrifice that in the pursuit of a — I feel — more sincere form of honor, but one that few people would know about.
It seems to me that someone who wanted to do honorable things wouldn't be doing it to impress a lot of people. They'd be doing it because it was the right thing to do. Just like a truly charitable person wouldn't give to the poor just so they could brag to people that they're charitable.
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Wow what a discussion.
Sir Patrick,
Having read your post there may have been a reason you ended up going first. I can not disagree with anything that you have said but there one portion that I would ask you for examples.
"A person can be honest, and humble, but not necessarily be honorable.'Can you please give us an example or two of an act being "honest and humble" but not honorable.
Sure. As mentioned in my original post, honor is active. In order to set it in motion, one must have the resolve to do so. It is one thing to be honest and humble and see what the honorable course is, but all of that means little if you do not ACT on it.
EDITED to try and seperate my response from the original quote box.
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I may be young but I do think Honor could be viewed from many angles.
If an evil family is known for being evil, wouldn't they shame one of their kin for being good?
But that would be to say if the rest of the world considers that family to have honor or dishonor. In world with mostly evil family's I do believe that would apply. But we don't live in a world a evil family's.
then again one might see revenge as a way to uphold ones honor. I don't believe that, one would have to avenge someone, as to when it then would be for the greater good, and your dead would be considered honorable.
In my personal opinion honor, cannot be described by talk or tales even. If you tell someone a story of the most honorable knight in the world, the word honor could still be quite alien to them, as they might view it as doing alot of good deeds.
My argument is that one can learn honor only through actions and experience.
You'd have to know what dishonor is before honor. Read someone the tale of the most dishonorable knights, they may not quite know what honor is yet, but they definetly know what not do. So after some time they can get the right of Idea of what kind of actions to carry out. The less dishonorable things you do the more honor you have, and just upholding that could gain more honor to you and your family.
Honor is upholding your codes, laws, and morals, Yet it is also performing good deeds.
I can't Describe honor, because I only have one word to describe it. Yet I can feel what honor is and do understand it, and I just know I am honorable, even though I have done some dishonorable things in the past.
I disagree with no one, Im easy.
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What are y'all's thoughts on this?
Honor, Dueling, and Drengskapr in the Viking Age. (http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/drengur.htm)
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Nice find, Thorsteinn. Strikes me how how much the Vikings put with will to surrender self to luck and fate in the mix with "honorable" behavior.
Glad to see see this excellent topic still has legs.
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Honor...it's what makes us who we are...without it the world be worse than it is and we would fall to whatever evil or dishonorable person comes around...living and studying the Asian culture it is one of the things I hold dearly and close to my heart and I base my individual code of chivalry around it.
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So much to say on this subject. So much has been said already. Some of it truly astonishing.
I find in my own life, the description of what is honorable changes. I prefer to believe that what is honorable is as variable as humans and the circumstances they find themselves in. And that's not a bad thing. Because there can be no honor in humanity so long as the rules of honor are absolute. If you can think of any immutable law of honor, I can think of at least one exception to it. There is no single precise, succinct definition of honor that is true for all humans in all circumstances. Cultures, religions and governments can have their own definitions, as individuals can, but only a man himself can say what is honorable in the situations he finds himself in. Perhaps even the act of contemplating what is the honorable choice is enough to make one so in today's world. Also, those with like definitions will naturally cleave together but differences between people's sense of honor should, in general, be embraced not persecuted. (in general)
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“Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise; seek what they sought.”
― Matsuo Bashō, poet.
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Tis' true, honor is not as prominent today, as it once was. That said, I do have the pleasure of bearing witness to honorable moments in my career field. The finest example of honor I can think of, is when we render aid to defeated enemies. To save the life of the man that just tried his hardest to take yours, that, is honor.
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Tis' true, honor is not as prominent today, as it once was. That said, I do have the pleasure of bearing witness to honorable moments in my career field. The finest example of honor I can think of, is when we render aid to defeated enemies. To save the life of the man that just tried his hardest to take yours, that, is honor.
Well said. I think honor may not be very common in society as whole today (I also don't think it was as widespread as we like to believe it was in the Middle Ages), it is definitely emphasized in certain populations like the military. I spent 10 years as an officer in the Navy and I will never come across such a large concentration of honor again in my life. I miss flying, but what I miss most of all are the quality of people that I had the opportunity to lead and serve, and the camaraderie therein.
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Now you have to make due with us, Sir Ian ;)
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He will be alright. He is in good company.
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This is one of the best threads I've ever read on this topic. Sir Patrick, especially well penned. I too believe honor is a journey, if for no other reason than we are tested in various different ways throughout life. I will also say that while I consider it a journey, it does have a starting point - the coincidence between integrity, bravery, and service to an ideal.
Excellent topic, Sir Edward.
Respectfully,
Edward, GOTJ
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Well said. I think honor may not be very common in society as whole today (I also don't think it was as widespread as we like to believe it was in the Middle Ages), it is definitely emphasized in certain populations like the military. I spent 10 years as an officer in the Navy and I will never come across such a large concentration of honor again in my life. I miss flying, but what I miss most of all are the quality of people that I had the opportunity to lead and serve, and the camaraderie therein.
I know what you mean, Sir Ian. As a former enlisted Submariner, I got to serve with some of the finest people. Even though I have been out of the Navy for sixteen years this April, I still harken back to those days as an exemplar.
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I think honor may not be very common in society as whole today
This is the case and it is a sad reality.
I would say that instead of simply discussing or debating the finer points of honor, why not do honorable deeds so as to be the example towards people to see and to learn from. '
I recall my moments of honor well and they are lessons to me. I would say that one must be the example and set the example. The common excuse I hear from people is "nobody does it because I have seen anyone that does it." The right answer is the action that speaks "Chivalry" "Honor" and people seeing it and letting them seeing that actions or actions challenge what they believe and setting to them the choice to follow by example or not.