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Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Brian on 2009-10-31, 16:08:10
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During this season at MDRF when I was discussing my harness with Sir Barchan, he told me that my
Mercenary Tailor 14th century gorget was not appropriate for the timeframe of my harness – i.e. 1340ish.
I was a bit taken aback since I was reasonably certain that plated gorgets were plausible even
during the late 13th century and I informed him as such including the point that the Mercenary
Tailor version was resembled more of brigandine style than solid plate. I vaguely recalled a reference
to an obscure document dated around 1294 referring to the purchase of sixty plate gorgets but
couldn’t recall where I read it. Fortunately a related discussion took place on the My Armoury Forum
last year and one of the replies provided the precise reference! :)
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13672&highlight=gorget (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13672&highlight=gorget)
What is more a web search for the source of that information provided this link with a great many
excerpts from the referenced book…I will provide the link but it may have to come back off if Sir Ed
deems it to be a copyright infringement. :-\
European Armor 1066~1700, Claude Blair
http://www.13c.ru/texts/blair.pdf (http://www.13c.ru/texts/blair.pdf)
btw, the above link is a great reference source for helms, crests and surcoats!
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It's not copyright infringement to merely place a link, so I think we're OK. :)
I'll have to take a look at these, this will be an interesting discussion!
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I remember that discussion on myArmoury, actually. They're right, the design that was mentioned in the OP is really more a 15th C design, not the 13th that it claims to be.
Looking at the PDF, it sounds like what they're describing in the early 14th and back into the 13th are more like simple bevors, lacking the complex curves of the later designs, much the way great helms of the period did not have the complex curves of the later bascinets. So which gorgets of a sort existed, it's hard to make the claim that form-fitting plate gorgets made of multiple pieces would have existed at the time.
However, since the one you're using is more of a brig style, I don't know, since nothing really seems to speak to that one way or the other. I can say that none of the effigies I've seen from the time seem to have that, as they seem to progress from mail coifs straight into aventails on bascinets.
Of course, as the document mentions though, it's hard to know what they wore underneath, since the effigies and drawings only show the outer layers.
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However, since the one you're using is more of a brig style, I don't know, since nothing really seems to speak to that one way or the other. I can say that none of the effigies I've seen from the time seem to have that, as they seem to progress from mail coifs straight into aventails on bascinets.
Of course, as the document mentions though, it's hard to know what they wore underneath, since the effigies and drawings only show the outer layers.
Your opinion coincides with my thoughts exactly. I don’t wish to disrespect Sir Barchan, but I think he was mistaken. If I wore the typical bascinet with aventail then my gorget wouldn’t even be visible. :-\
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Interesting. ???
It really depends on how strict you want to be in your authenticity.
As our group specialises in the period from the mid to the late C14th we do come accross similar quandaries too. Some members buy kit just to find that it is far too late for our chosen period ::)
As we have seen no references or evidence that gorgets where worn we try to say away from using them.
We tend to use cerveliers and bascinets with aventails or mail coifs. The mail aventail is sometimes worn over a gamboised aventail so affording extra neck and shoulder protection. We find this also gives the destinctive wide, tapering neck shape seen on many effigies of the period, most famously;
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/england/canterbury-cathedral-photos/xt-4310.jpg
If our members still choose to wear a gorget, for it`s extra protection, then they usually wear it under their jupon/tabard.
Some (including myself) even often use a mail mantle or standard, but once again the period of these is usually under question so I`m not too sure of the authenticity of these;
http://www.sgfnet.co.uk/owainglyndwr/OwainGlyndwr09/Owain%20Glyndwr%202009/content/DSC_0286_large.html
The way I look at is that a lack of evidence for their existance isn`t necessarily evidence of the lack of them. It makes sense that some form of neck and shoulder protection was required as these areas are vunerable to heavy blows, but what is obvious is that any extra protection must have generally been hidden. It may have taken the form of plates attached to the COP/Brigandine or in the form of seperate plated protector like yours.
I personally like your gorget but if you are bothered what others think then I would suggest that, untill you have evidence of the gorget worn over your tabard, you wear it underneath ;) That should keep the authenty nazis off your case :)
G
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ya its one of those things thats ehhhhhhh. I don't know of any off handed references (paintings etc) that show a gorget for your time frame. there is still too much mail and bassinets covering the neck area to be sure. a padded collar or mail over a padded collar I think you would be safe historically.
But that being said you've said your not into the 100 percent club so if your happy with your kit than keep it :) If not, ditch it for a standard(mail collar) :)
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If you want to get technical, I don't think there's any evidence for that type of gorget at all from any period except the modern period. The style is sort of a "what if" style that was invented by modern reenactment and SCA, I believe, so that they could put throat protection on harnesses that otherwise wouldn't use them.
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The below is an excerpt from the European Armor 1066~1700 by Claude Blair link in my OP.
The last decade of the 13th century also saw the introduction of a
plate defence for the chin and neck (gorget* or bevor). A French document
of 1294, for example, lists no less than sixty gorgières de plate
along with other plate armour,8 while the de Nesle inventory of 1302,
also French, includes two gorgerets de plate.9 The earliest illustration of
this defence I have been able to trace appears on the Spanish effigy of
Don Alvaro de Cabrera (M.M.), which was executed shortly before
1314 10 (149). It consists simply of a solid cylindrical collar extending
to just below the nose and carrying a short cape that just covers the
points of the shoulders. This last is covered with rosette-shaped studs,
presumably the heads of rivets securing plates on the inside. A similar
bevor with the plates clearly marked on the cape is depicted on an
effigy of c. 1330 at Coulommiers, France, while scoop-shaped bevors
sloping up to a point in front and apparently made in one piece are
shown in an English MS. of 1326-711 (16, C). This second form,
usually worn with a kettle-hat, is frequently illustrated in Spanish
art throughout the whole of the 14th century but is rarely found elsewhere.
Despite the absence of representations, references to plate bevors
are, however, common in 14th-century texts everywhere in Europe.
And this link is to a picture of Don Alvaro de Cabrera’s effigy, which looks to be a full bevor as described.
http://books.google.com/books?id=C8mXukZi5V8C&lpg=PA23&ots=KJkK3bGmog&dq=effigy%20of%20Don%20Alvaro%20de%20Cabrera&pg=PA23&output=embed (http://books.google.com/books?id=C8mXukZi5V8C&lpg=PA23&ots=KJkK3bGmog&dq=effigy%20of%20Don%20Alvaro%20de%20Cabrera&pg=PA23&output=embed)
The way I look at is that a lack of evidence for their existance isn`t necessarily evidence of the lack of them. It makes sense that some form of neck and shoulder protection was required as these areas are vunerable to heavy blows, but what is obvious is that any extra protection must have generally been hidden. It may have taken the form of plates attached to the COP/Brigandine or in the form of seperate plated protector like yours.
I personally like your gorget but if you are bothered what others think then I would suggest that, untill you have evidence of the gorget worn over your tabard, you wear it underneath ;) That should keep the authenty nazis off your case :)
I had hoped that Allan Senefelder would have interjected his thoughts by now since he made my gorget. ;)
But nonetheless I will keep wearing it as I currently do because I am convinced that there is enough
tangible evidence that plated gorgets were utilized well within the period of my harness. As far as
the technical merits of the TMT design, I also find it to be compellingly plausible and would likely be a
logical progression for providing much more protection for the neck and shoulder as Sir Gerard has
pointed out.
So the best I can surmise is that there is not enough physical evidence to either confirm nor deny
that the essentially brigandine style gorget of TMT was ever utilized. In the worse case since my
harness is at the height of the transitional period I could always claim it to be an armoring dead end! :D
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While I can't speak for sure of the historical accuracy of your particular gorget, Tim at Red Falcon Armories (who made my leg armor and will be making the rest of my 14th century kit when I get the money together) has told me that brigandine style gorgets appeared sometime shortly after the brigandine body armor. According to him they remained popular well into the 17th century due to their relatively good protection value vs. weight and movement restriction. The style that he makes is more similiar to my brig body armor, steel plates covered with leather on the inside and outside, the plates are smaller rectangular plates, not the larger ones like your gorget has. We had a brief discussion on gorgets since I am working on 16th century padded armor to be worn in conjunction with a gorget and possibly pauldrons. I was slightly shocked when he suggested a brig style gorget would be more appropriate for me than a plate style. According to him, most soldiers wore brig. styles, only wealthier officers wore plate style and those were most commonly worn only on ceremonial armor or for ceremonies as a symbol of rank.. In battle, the preference, according to him, seems to be for brig styles. I am not sure where he got his information, but as a professional armorer I would tend to trust his opinion, especially since I have seen him refer people to other armorers for styles of armor that he isn't particularly familiar with or good at making. I think that this brings up an interesting point though, the effigies studied may not reflect the actual battlefield look or armor worn by the various knights. Also, these do not necessarily depict what is worn for those of us looking to portray a common soldier. As has been said before, a lack of depiction or mention in sources does not necessarily mean that the item in question can be ruled out, rather it may be that it was assumed to be common knowledge and thus not worth mentioning.
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see the way i see it is there isn't any real evidence at all for them. we know in our modern thinking think "hey what about my neck etc" and have access to so much different stuff we think it should have been common knowledge for them in the time. I haven't seen any period 13th/14th c gorgets, plate or leather, brig etc. so in my personal opinion I don't think they were there. the argument of just cause there not found argument doesn't really work for me either. just my opinion. :) you don't really even see them in 15thc. more bevors and mail standards than anything else. but like i said i think the gorget works for Sir Brian's look and I really like it and think if he likes it then keep it :)
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see the way i see it is there isn't any real evidence at all for them. we know in our modern thinking think "hey what about my neck etc" and have access to so much different stuff we think it should have been common knowledge for them in the time. I haven't seen any period 13th/14th c gorgets, plate or leather, brig etc. so in my personal opinion I don't think they were there. the argument of just cause there not found argument doesn't really work for me either. just my opinion. :) you don't really even see them in 15thc. more bevors and mail standards than anything else. but like i said i think the gorget works for Sir Brian's look and I really like it and think if he likes it then keep it :)
I tend to be in complete agreement. Now, it only matters if historical accuracy matters to you. If it doesn't, then don't worry about it.
While I can't speak for sure of the historical accuracy of your particular gorget, Tim at Red Falcon Armories (who made my leg armor and will be making the rest of my 14th century kit when I get the money together) has told me that brigandine style gorgets appeared sometime shortly after the brigandine body armor. According to him they remained popular well into the 17th century due to their relatively good protection value vs. weight and movement restriction. The style that he makes is more similiar to my brig body armor, steel plates covered with leather on the inside and outside, the plates are smaller rectangular plates, not the larger ones like your gorget has. We had a brief discussion on gorgets since I am working on 16th century padded armor to be worn in conjunction with a gorget and possibly pauldrons. I was slightly shocked when he suggested a brig style gorget would be more appropriate for me than a plate style. According to him, most soldiers wore brig. styles, only wealthier officers wore plate style and those were most commonly worn only on ceremonial armor or for ceremonies as a symbol of rank.. In battle, the preference, according to him, seems to be for brig styles. I am not sure where he got his information, but as a professional armorer I would tend to trust his opinion, especially since I have seen him refer people to other armorers for styles of armor that he isn't particularly familiar with or good at making. I think that this brings up an interesting point though, the effigies studied may not reflect the actual battlefield look or armor worn by the various knights. Also, these do not necessarily depict what is worn for those of us looking to portray a common soldier. As has been said before, a lack of depiction or mention in sources does not necessarily mean that the item in question can be ruled out, rather it may be that it was assumed to be common knowledge and thus not worth mentioning.
I suspect that's a lot more hearsay than fact. :)
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Believe me I’m very content with my harness being within the ninety percentile group and for all practical purposes that much is even an excess since I only utilize it for renfaire garb for now. ;)
Then again well intentioned and civilized divergence has always been an incentive for me to delve deeper into the research material. It is the company and opinion of such an esteemed gathering as on this forum that helps me solidify a vague and possibly contentious concept into a more precise perception for which I am grateful for all who participates in this discussion. :)
If I was to summarize, my opinion of all historical accuracy conceptions (and in some cases preconceptions) it would simply be that no one should ever make the claim of an item being 100% historically accurate unless they invented a time machine and travelled back to the period in question and fabricated that item utilizing all the methods, tools and materials of the time period, otherwise all other claims of historical accuracy really are just subjective. ;)
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Is that "subjective" or did you mean "bullsh*t? ;)
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I think I tend to agree completely with Sir Brian's last statement of historical accuracy, unless you can actually say you were there via some means of time travel, it is impossible to say for sure 100% that an item is period accurate or not. I have put alot of effort into my Elizabethan soldier kit, and have recieved many compliments on it from people who are familiar with the period, but I would never say that it is 100% accurate. The best I would say is that it is as accurate as I can find in source material and discussions with other reenactors. As for where Tim got his info, I can not say and would hate to speculate, though I do know that he does alot of SCA work.
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Is that "subjective" or did you mean "bullsh*t? ;)
The terms are directly proportional and interchangeable as well as varied in its application contingent upon geographical and societal influences. – Damn I think I just broke my thesaurus! :D
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I think I tend to agree completely with Sir Brian's last statement of historical accuracy, unless you can actually say you were there via some means of time travel, it is impossible to say for sure 100% that an item is period accurate or not. I have put alot of effort into my Elizabethan soldier kit, and have recieved many compliments on it from people who are familiar with the period, but I would never say that it is 100% accurate. The best I would say is that it is as accurate as I can find in source material and discussions with other reenactors. As for where Tim got his info, I can not say and would hate to speculate, though I do know that he does alot of SCA work.
I'm in agreement that very little can be said to be 100% certain. That's true in one's own lifetime, let alone something hundreds of years ago. :) Having said that, there are still degrees of accuracy. Just because something *could* have existed, doesn't mean it did. All of the material to make an atom bomb have always existed, but there's obviously no evidence of atom bombs being made in the 14th century, and it'd be pretty ludicrous to assume this. That's an extreme angle, but my point is that just because people *could* have done something, doesn't mean it occurred to them to do so.
Getting back to my point: If you want something because you like it, then do it. I have no problems with that. But if we're going to say something was done historically, then there should be proof of that. If there proof is vague, then we should be honest that we're making a guess based on lack of evidence. Otherwise we're lying to ourselves as much as other people.
I'm no historically accuracy Nazi, and I don't do living history. But I have to confess that one of my pet peeves is when speculation is stated as fact. :) After all, I hated when people spread rumors in middle school about hearsay that was based on anything, so why should history be any different? ;)
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Getting back to my point: If you want something because you like it, then do it. I have no problems with that. But if we're going to say something was done historically, then there should be proof of that. If there proof is vague, then we should be honest that we're making a guess based on lack of evidence. Otherwise we're lying to ourselves as much as other people.
I'm no historically accuracy Nazi, and I don't do living history. But I have to confess that one of my pet peeves is when speculation is stated as fact. :) After all, I hated when people spread rumors in middle school about hearsay that was based on anything, so why should history be any different? ;)
This is really good because I can fully see we are all essentially debating the merits of a two-headed coin insofar as both sides being right but not absolutely correct! I also share your pet peeve of when speculation is stated as fact and I’ve heard far too much of it in everything from the theory of evolution to who really shot JFK. :)
It is unfortunate that there is so little genuine physical evidence left of the middle ages. Obscure documents, crude paintings and effigies are pretty much all we have left from that period and they all leave too much of a variance for “embellishment”, of course this doesn’t make me a historical accuracy libertarian either! ;)
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Yeah, that's why I make a point of understanding and being honest about the flaws in my kit. I've gone for a certain visual style, but the mail isn't accurate, nor is the leather, boots, hose, spaulders, etc.
We all have to make certain compromises based on comfort, cost, and availability, as the quest for perfection can certainly send you to the poor house, or the mad house, or both. :)
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Sir Brian
I like your plate gorget, I would not worry about it being period- as we are ripping apart the ideas of "period" armor in another thread, basically no one can really say what was period or not- at least in a basic sense. There were truly astonishing, highly artistic, and finely grafted- almost gothic, helms and armor made in Damascus around 1050 and there are well crafted moorish harness and helmets dating from that time to well after. The point is- it could have been made, and the possibility of your segemented plate gorget being used somewhere in any given time is almost a certainty. Mybe you like the fit, maybe you like older ways, or maybe it was gained on a trip -an adnavement on what was avilible elsewhere. Maybe you had gotton or were nearly injured in the neck or seen many fellows cut down by a deflected blow this way, and decided you wanted to protect yourself. Armor tended to be a bit of personal preferences, a bit of wealth, a bit of experience, and a bit of happenstance.
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Milords,
Another consideration in regards to a gorget is, are you fighting in your harness? I wear a hardened leather gorget under my maile coif under my great helm and it has saved my neck (literally) on several occasions. In short, if you are fighting in it, the gorget is one item that one can disregard "historical authenticity" in my opinion.
I am at your service,
Sir Blackwolf
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Stormdelver and Sir Blackwolf,
My apologizes good sirs for being so long in reading your replies…I’ve been away from this forum the past few weeks and heavily involved in the beta testing of a new PC game.
I appreciate your perspectives and especially this portion from Stormdelver:
The point is- it could have been made, and the possibility of your segemented plate gorget being used somewhere in any given time is almost a certainty. Mybe you like the fit, maybe you like older ways, or maybe it was gained on a trip -an adnavement on what was avilible elsewhere. Maybe you had gotton or were nearly injured in the neck or seen many fellows cut down by a deflected blow this way, and decided you wanted to protect yourself. Armor tended to be a bit of personal preferences, a bit of wealth, a bit of experience, and a bit of happenstance.
When I was in the army we were allowed certain latitudes in our field equipment, I’m sure not as much as during wartime like the present, but nonetheless there were some overlooked liberties that would enhance our personal preferences for weapons and equipment. I am confident that this general inclination of all fighting men and women to equip themselves with whatever equipment and weapons gives them the confidence to accomplish their job is universal and timeless. ;)
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I wear what I wear because I like it and I look good in it- or so my wife tells me. Either way, when I'm garbed up, I feel...different. Harder to explain than I'm giving credit for, but its like a superhero putting on his costume; I feel stronger, smarter, rougher with a devil-may-care glint in the eye, and a ready hand on the pommel of my sword. When I can wear one, that is.
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I wear what I wear because I like it and I look good in it- or so my wife tells me. Either way, when I'm garbed up, I feel...different. Harder to explain than I'm giving credit for, but its like a superhero putting on his costume; I feel stronger, smarter, rougher with a devil-may-care glint in the eye, and a ready hand on the pommel of my sword. When I can wear one, that is.
I think you'll find that most of us feel this way. :)
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I’m glad this topic was resurrected so I could post this picture I’ve been meaning to take and post but haven’t until very recently. I wanted to demonstrate how difficult it is to see a gorget that is under a maille coif or aventail and therefore not well represented in the available medieval effigies or artwork. :-\
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/My%20Kit/P9010001.jpg)
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true, but there are still inventories out there and they aren't on them.
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Ah but I remember in one particular book that referenced a ledger where the King of France back in the 1200's purchased 3000 gorgets for an upcoming campaign...I just have to remember the book! :-[
I thought it was in my copy of "The Medieval Soldier" by Vesey Norman but it must have been in another book I signed out of the public library...which means I have to go through my previous checkout listings to find it, but I HAVE to now! ;)
UPDATE:
Ok I think I remember the book title: A knight and his armor by Ewart Oakeshott, I placed it back on hold and should be able to pick it up on my way home this afternoon...(I don't think it's been checked out since the last time I returned it over a year ago!) ;)
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i have this book and will be looking at it today
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pg 26 the writing covers from 13th to 16th century and has the word gorget in there. now we know they are in 15th and 16 centurys but are they in the 13th just from this writing? heehhe.
also have to look at the context and the changing of meanings. is a gorget a heavily padded piece around the neck? what we call a mail aventail off a helmet? a mail standard with or without padding? a neck guard that is attached or un attached to the bottom of some bassinets as seen in funeral effigies? it's a tuff call.
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Lol I'm just happy I remembered the right book which vaguely mentions the word gorget...at my age
that is always a positive! :D
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One of the threads on myarmoury mentioned a padded collar sort of thing. That's a possibility, perhaps?
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Sir Brian's picture kind of lends some credence to the idea of a gorget being worn; I know in effigies I've looked at, I've always noticed how the neck area seemed overly thick and large...I'm thinking of the Black Prince's effigy at the moment; maybe it is artistic license but it could just as well been some form of armament at the neck.
(http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv64/ebonpaladin/Armor/EdwardBlackPrincetombeffigy.jpg)
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Yeah, it's hard to say... it could also just be the way the mail hangs down straight from the head instead of conforming to the neck.
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That's probably it.
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UPDATE:
Ok I think I remember the book title: A knight and his armor by Ewart Oakeshott, I placed it back on hold and should be able to pick it up on my way home this afternoon
pg 26 the writing covers from 13th to 16th century and has the word gorget in there. now we know they are in 15th and 16 centurys but are they in the 13th just from this writing? heehhe.
also have to look at the context and the changing of meanings. is a gorget a heavily padded piece around the neck? what we call a mail aventail off a helmet? a mail standard with or without padding? a neck guard that is attached or un attached to the bottom of some bassinets as seen in funeral effigies? it's a tuff call.
Ok I checked that part as well and that isn’t the book I have the vague recollection that mentioned a ledger of purchased equipment for an upcoming campaign. – I remember it was a document dated to the mid to late 13c and listed 3000 gorgets purchased along with other arms and equipment for the King of France.
*sigh* getting old sucks! :(
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Who's getting old? I'm getting BETTER w/time. ;)
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Believe me I’m very content with my harness being within the ninety percentile group and for all practical purposes that much is even an excess since I only utilize it for renfaire garb for now. ;)
Then again well intentioned and civilized divergence has always been an incentive for me to delve deeper into the research material. It is the company and opinion of such an esteemed gathering as on this forum that helps me solidify a vague and possibly contentious concept into a more precise perception for which I am grateful for all who participates in this discussion. :)
If I was to summarize, my opinion of all historical accuracy conceptions (and in some cases preconceptions) it would simply be that no one should ever make the claim of an item being 100% historically accurate unless they invented a time machine and travelled back to the period in question and fabricated that item utilizing all the methods, tools and materials of the time period, otherwise all other claims of historical accuracy really are just subjective. ;)
I share your sentiments, Sir Brian (even if my comments are a late addition to this string). :) I personally like your harness and if it works for your persona even if there is no factual basis or historical reference, so be it. It looks good and fits a historical pattern that did exist at one point. None except those of the time period can actually attest to what was, only to what we presume to be a standard of armor wearers of the period. Even if researchers find factual basis, historical authenticity is not always "accurate" as we find more about of our past (or in essence, reminded of things we actually did practice at one point in time).
Armorers could only do what they had the skill to do (w/ the materials they had at their disposal) but those with the skill could invent wonders for those with the right coin even in early days. Even historical effigies are not going to give every account or historical depiction of what may have existed in a specific time period, but it can always be inferred as possible unless ruled out completely...
I try to make my persona a mix between myself and what was time period, and reflect it both in my armor kit and weapons. I prefer to make my persona more factual or historical than LARP-like or fantasy-based (which could pretty much go anywhere your imagination can take you). Just some food for thought, and like anything else, it's my opinion and subject to scrutiny. It's trying to find a balance between who you are as an individual and the depiction of who you are trying to portray that makes your look come together.
Historians are always going to scrutinize as scientists do over accuracy but artisians who respect the skill will just look on your armor kit as either a "creative wonder" or a "common-place piece" (as most everyday on-lookers will). Either case, it looks good and fits you perfectly so why contest what works. :)
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My take is this, historical evidence for a gorget in the 14th Century has not yet poped up. One can make the argument that the effigy of the Black Prince wearing a gorget under the aventail.
However, in regards to safety, if I were fighting in my (soon to come 14th Century Kit Crecy-Poitiers Era) Kit with aventail, I would use a leather or wool gorget to protect my neck. (I salute Sir Blackwolf for pointing the value of such protection). The reason is safety, in regards to historical accuracy, the possibility stands there but evidence is needed.
A metal gorget would be unlikely under the aventail. But it is a good idea.
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i personally think he is wearing a padded aventail under his mail aventail.
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I second Sir Wolf's proposition!
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I tend to agree about it being padded under the aventail. Plate and leather would be unlikely. The padding would make the most sense under the maille and can best explain the way it settles differently on the head out towards the shoulders.
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A metal gorget would be unlikely under the aventail. But it is a good idea.
A metal gorget under an aventail would render the aventail useless. There's no reason to have a maille aventail over a plate gorget. The plate gorget would suffice on its own, the maille would just break if smashed against rigid plate beneath. I believe that maille aventails were for the most part worn either on top of, or attached to a padded aventail, much like the combination of haubergeon and aketon at the time.
Once plate gorgets start to appear, the aventail goes away, as can be seen with the emergence of the white harness and with it the Great/Grand Basincets ca. Agincourt that use a rigid neck defense.
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i personally think he is wearing a padded aventail under his mail aventail.
Agreed. Mail without padding, especially around the neck, seems borderline suicidal.
Once plate gorgets start to appear, the aventail goes away, as can be seen with the emergence of the white harness and with it the Great/Grand Basincets ca. Agincourt that use a rigid neck defense.
Excellent point! The only thing I can think of is the Italian harnesses where they had a mail standard attached to the bottom of the armet. I've always wondered what they had underneath of that, since it's very close-fit and wouldn't have much space for padding, and I haven't seen any extant harnesses in that style with a collared plate gorget either.
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Exactly, Sir Ian is correct on the Agincourt Great Bascinets and why padded collar gorgets were more likely added underneath the mail aventail. Glad we are on the same conclusion!
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My take on historicity is this, I won't do it (almost always) if I can't find SOME evidence from the period for every thing but the most miniscule (or hidden ;)) details.
Looking through effigies, discriptions, and artwork, one can find evidence of almost anything, especially in the 14th century, and if one is willing to cross a regional border.
For the issue at hand (4 years ago to the OP...) I would label it a very beleivable historical plausability. No concrete evidence, but a few textual references, and conforms with the stylistic and practical elements of armour at the time.
Also we must remember that a gorget could be anything from a brigndine shaped rigid defence, or little more than a glorified scarf. Terms were relative and flexable in the period.
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My take on historicity is this, I won't do it (almost always) if I can't find SOME evidence from the period for every thing but the most miniscule (or hidden ;)) details.
Looking through effigies, discriptions, and artwork, one can find evidence of almost anything, especially in the 14th century, and if one is willing to cross a regional border.
For the issue at hand (4 years ago to the OP...) I would label it a very beleivable historical plausability. No concrete evidence, but a few textual references, and conforms with the stylistic and practical elements of armour at the time.
Also we must remember that a gorget could be anything from a brigndine shaped rigid defence, or little more than a glorified scarf. Terms were relative and flexable in the period.
But Nathan, we all know that there's absolutely no chance of anyone ever having traded with a neighboring region or country, the MyArmoury Gods have already ruled on this controversial matter... (for those unaware, it's an old joke)
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Well, if we're playing by MyArmoury rules, then we must also remember to ignore the effigies and change the dates on all your extant peices! ;D
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Remember the first rule of myArmoury.
Don't talk about myArmoury. :D
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Remember the first rule of myArmoury.
Don't talk about myArmoury. :D
qft
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you are all banned now, grow up.
lol
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LOL @ that
And they wonder why I won't give up any money to keep their site going; with SFI, they've gone gun-shy, with MyA they just decided it was their way. That's it.
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In an attempt to settle this once and for all. :)
The MyArmory Rules are rules to be followed. However I will stand on my original point that the possibility of wool gorgets in the 14th Century is there. It is very practical to wear on underneath the aventail (unless if you are doing a padded aventail) for the protection of your windpipe. Plus if yuo wish, add a simple metal gorget to add further protection like this one.
(http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/gorg%20pics/gorg%20smpl%2001.jpg)
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My comments regarding gorgets are in relation to a steel (or leather/steel) one. A wool gorget, I would just consider a tall standing collar, which I have seen on 14th century gambesons - though I can't remember if that's a modern addition for sake of convenience, or based off historical imagery.
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i am moving this subject and you are all banned again lol
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i am moving this subject and you are all banned again lol
Hey, moderation of the forums shall not be conducted by mere members! You are banned!
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those hired to sack those that did wrong have just been sacked
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those hired to sack those hired to sack those that did wrong have just been sacked
And why the heck didn't you use the search funtion? This thread is meaningless because someone posted a thread that had the words "Historical" and "Gorget" in the title back in 2003! BANNED!
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(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002284769/017894414_confused_animals_are_funny15_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg)
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(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m717ydEyCl1r415ri.png)
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^^ you are now banned
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Banned?? No!! SUED!! Infringement!! Infringement!! :)
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That's just horrible. lol
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What? Banned?
Preposterous! This is a needed discussion and one is backing away? ;)