ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Thorsteinn on 2014-01-14, 00:22:29
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Aspie Sean Week 31: "Truth?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoZRfvENKHM#ws)
Thought this might spark a discussion.
Also do you agree with the statement "That which can be destroyed by the truth should be." (P.C. Hodgell, 'Seeker's Mask')
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He does make an excellent point and the code of chivalry also states that one must always tell the truth. But, I think there is always a time and place to tell the truth. Whether it to tell when it is ready to be told or not. That said, sometimes times the best time to tell the trutg is now, for you may never have another chance. In he quote "That which can be destroyed by truth should be." I say let justice be done, the truth can always hurt, but this is a trial through life. Sometimes one can get away with the truth, but not the whole truth. On the other, do you agree with "ignorance is bliss."?
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Ignorance is bliss because Rose Colored Glasses keep you from seeing the blood.
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To me, dying at 84 is not a "surprise" or "tragic", it's "winning the game". ;) The average life expectancy in the US (as of 2011) is 78.64. For women, it's 81. As far as I'm concerned, if you beat the average, you've done well.
Anyway, I wish you luck on getting it all straightened out with the family. I see what you're saying about there never being a good time, so it's "always" a good time.
Luckily I've never had major grievances to deal with in my family, so I'm probably not the best at giving advice for this. But I think your feelings on the matter should probably guide the way. That is, if you feel it's important to have it acknowledged, then by all means, do what you can to get it out and the open and talk it out.
My feeling is that old wounds will continue to fester. It's best to discuss things as soon as possible, otherwise you just build resentment that grows with time.
One possible counter-argument however is that some people are incapable of admitting their contribution to a problem, or will never change their behavior. In such cases, you have to decide how much you want them to remain in your life, and whether sweeping things under the rug is sufficiently justified.
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What is your own contribution to the problems you deal with now? Is all the responsibility split between your parents or do you bare some of the burden as well? You lightly touch on your past alluding to interactions with your middle brother, but you don't give us much insight beyond that. It suggests that perhaps there's more to the story than you let on. More truth?
I notice a recurring theme in a lot of your videos. There seems to be a general expectation that the neurotypical are somehow bound to go out of their way to understand you. Is this so?
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One possible counter-argument however is that some people are incapable of admitting their contribution to a problem, or will never change their behavior. In such cases, you have to decide how much you want them to remain in your life, and whether sweeping things under the rug is sufficiently justified.
Bolded; when dealing with people of this nature, I have found it to be more beneficial to 'love them from afar'. They're family, they'll always be family but I can't be bothered w/people who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions and subsequent occurrences. Good to see them at family events, but I don't want to get embroiled in needless drama.
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Who is the man in the video?
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What is your own contribution to the problems you deal with now? Is all the responsibility split between your parents or do you bare some of the burden as well? You lightly touch on your past alluding to interactions with your middle brother, but you don't give us much insight beyond that. It suggests that perhaps there's more to the story than you let on. More truth?
Bolding mine. This is an excellent point to bring up as well. Without going further into what the actual problem/disagreement is, I think it's useful to approach things with this in mind. Often it's hard to acknowledge our own contributions to disagreements, but it's often necessary in order to resolve things. Sometimes, the problem comes from a misunderstanding on the parts of both parties.
Neat quote from Babylon 5: "Understanding is a three-edged sword" ... referring to "my side", "your side", and "the truth". :)
Who is the man in the video?
That is Thorsteinn.
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Ah Thorsteinn, you like arrows right, Heres something "When one has an arrow in him he has two options, leave the arrow in the body or remove it." Interpret it as you all will. If explaining is needed I will explain.
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Im a truthful person. I don't lie or hide things from parents or teachers.
I believe the Truth should be revealed within in this time frame a few weeks. Perhaps telling the truth is not a matter of having a good or best time. It is when it's most Important to share the truth as when it should be done. I if in a position of revealing something to someone I'd tell them before or during the time that is right. Perhaps you'll know when the best time is.
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Also do you agree with the statement "That which can be destroyed by the truth should be." (P.C. Hodgell, 'Seeker's Mask')
Tell kids the easter bunny isn't real?
Santa?
Tooth fairy?
The only absolute truth is that there are no absolute truths. :)
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Sir James, not to be a stickler but that is a logical fallacy ;)
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Sir James, not to be a stickler but that is a logical fallacy ;)
Hence it's appropriateness.
Or lack thereof.
Nobody said philosphy is easy. :D
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Sir James, not to be a stickler but that is a logical fallacy ;)
Hence it's appropriateness.
Or lack thereof.
Nobody said philosphy is easy. :D
I agree it's not easy, I have Finally Managed to stop stressing myself with it, and look to some of Tolkiens Ways.
The Truth should be unveiled, Or it will unveil itself Worse In the Future.
Imagine being 30 and you find out batman isn't actually real.
Bad things will happen.
I have an Idea that could help determine the truth. I find the best teachings in story's.
Find a story with a moral of truth, Perhaps then the Decision will be a clear one.
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One possible counter-argument however is that some people are incapable of admitting their contribution to a problem, or will never change their behavior. In such cases, you have to decide how much you want them to remain in your life, and whether sweeping things under the rug is sufficiently justified.
Does not the Path demand that I give them the chacne to be in my & My daughters life?
What is your own contribution to the problems you deal with now?
Poor timing due to choice & issues beyond my control (PCS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-concussion_syndrome) is a bitch)
Is all the responsibility split between your parents or do you bare some of the burden as well?
They bare responsibility for their actions & choices, as I was a child for most of what happened do I bare responsibility? I took up part of their burden when they refused to do right by my brother & I stepped in to help solve that.
You lightly touch on your past alluding to interactions with your middle brother, but you don't give us much insight beyond that. It suggests that perhaps there's more to the story than you let on. More truth?
Yes, but it was not conducive to the story or question at hand. Especially in the interests of time. In this case I was looking not to assert a Fact, but to raise a question & start a discussion. So far I've only been successful here.
I notice a recurring theme in a lot of your videos. There seems to be a general expectation that the neurotypical are somehow bound to go out of their way to understand you. Is this so?
As we Aspies go many miles out of our way every moment of every day for NT's is it so much to expect an NT to come some way towards us? Would you be asking this question if my disability were visible?
I try to say the things other Aspie's and HFA's can't & to answer the questions NT's want to know about as best I can even though, as my lady can attest, my translation skills are not great. I'm much better at translating NT-to-Aspie rather than Aspie-to-NT, though I'm trying hard to improve that & fully admit that I'm horrid if I'm the Aspie needing translation.
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I notice a recurring theme in a lot of your videos. There seems to be a general expectation that the neurotypical are somehow bound to go out of their way to understand you. Is this so?
As we Aspies go many miles out of our way every moment of every day for NT's is it so much to expect an NT to come some way towards us? Would you be asking this question if my disability were visible?
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You see, here's the rub. Society in general, will not come towards you. At all. Society has its norms, and in a very basic way, they are obeyed, artificial and arbitrary they may be. The general populace will feel no obligation to try to understand things through a lens outside their own.
People who are close to you, who are seeking to help, understand, or care, perhaps should be expected to try to come towards you, but make no mistake. Society at large will not lift a single small little finger to meet anyone. It's not just non-NTs. Plenty of perfectly NT people are totally excluded because they think society needs to give a little to meet their mold.
I'm not even saying that I myself won't make an effort, I mean, I've literally spent the vast majority of my life around non-NT types. Of course I want to understand. It's just that if you really want to make things clear to the NT society, you will have to go all the way, 150% freaking percent.
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Society at large will not lift a single small little finger to meet anyone. It's not just non-NTs. Plenty of perfectly NT people are totally excluded because they think society needs to give a little to meet their mold.
Not only this, but historically, the more a person varied from social norm, they were either ostracized, burned at the stake, or regarded as unworthy of life or liberties and sometimes even hunted for no reason beyond their differences from the social norms.
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I think it's borderline absurd to expect society to go out of it's way to try and deeply understand every single different shade of non-NT people. Society would literally have to spend all of it's time trying to understand every nuance of each person's position on the spectrum. It's equivalent to having to constantly worry about everything you say in fear that you might offend someone. You can't go through life catering to every individual. Society has no obligation to try and understand you. If someone seeks to be part of a group, they have to make the effort to understand the group, the group is the group, and it is what it is. It does not bare the burden of having to understand the individual. It's not fair, but that's the way it is. An employer for example is in no way obligated to go out of its way to cater to an employee that requires special handling and concern when it can easily get someone else who does not require exceptional treatment. If you want to be employed, you most conform to the expectations of the employer. Again, maybe not fair for someone in a position of disadvantage, but it is reality.
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An NON-FEDERAL GOVERNMENT employer for example is in no way obligated to go out of its way to cater to an employee that requires special handling and concern when it can easily get someone else who does not require exceptional treatment. If you want to be employed, you most conform to the expectations of the employer. Again, maybe not fair for someone in a position of disadvantage, but it is reality.
I did a slight edit in red with that example Sir Ian! Otherwise your statement is accurate. ;)
I must confess Thorsteinn I find it difficult to grasp the overall subtle nuances of the discord within your family and I certainly understand your preference for privacy yet from an outsider’s perspective it is akin to understanding the context of a novel with only reading the odd numbered pages.
I commend you and your lady’s desire to resolve the discord within your family as you are about to start a vital chapter in your lives and the welfare of your soon to be born child, however if the issues cannot be resolved to your satisfaction to where you cannot abide them to be part of your immediate family’s life (You, your Lady and your Child) then you must cut them loose.
My father broke off his family ties when his mother (my grandmother) refused to treat my mother with a shred of decency while I was still an infant. He walked away and didn’t look back for fifteen years until his father’s funeral which was when I met my grandmother for the first time and saw the corpse of my grandfather. It meant absolutely nothing to me except a minor sense of lost opportunities and 'might have beens'. The grieving old woman that I met wasn’t my grandmother; she was a grieving old woman I only felt a little pity for because she was alone but that was even marginalized because I had heard how she had treated my mother and could only marvel at how her pettiness caused me and my siblings to grow up without knowing any grandparents.
I suppose you need to ask yourself if what was done to you worth alienating your immediate family from your extended family. Does your extended family have ANY redeeming qualities you would want your child to benefit from? If the answer is truly ‘NO’ then by all means cut them loose and don’t look back. If it is more for just your redemption then I ask you to consider the value of that in comparison to your immediate family’s welfare because as the man of your immediate trinity your needs, wants and desires are subservient to your child’s and your lady’s needs or at least they should be! :-\
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I did a slight edit in red with that example Sir Ian! Otherwise your statement is accurate. ;)
lol... true true...
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Sir Brian's correction puts Sir Ian's response right on the mark. I would not call it absurd- but i suspect he does because he may have no experience in what it is like to be ostracized due to not being viewed as 'normal'. For Thorsteinn, it is a psychological issue, for me it was racial. The two are not the same, of course, but I do have an idea of what he's referring to.
Unfortunately, Sir Ian's viewpoint is the 'norm' as it were and as he said, conformity is the order of the day if you wish to be accepted by society at large.
Due to the largely mystifying nature of psychological disorder for the average layman, there's no way to apply a cookie-cutter quick fix to any one issue; while I can understand and even to a degree empathize with what Thorsteinn is feeling, I must say that it isn't going to happen. In fact, the only people willing to go that extra mile so to speak, are people who are empathic to the ordeal of people afflicted so, or people who are directly involved with such a person. Anyone else, be it in ignorance or lack of desire or fear will not.
FWIW, I am no different, Thorsteinn. If I did not have the pleasure of knowing you from this board and the AA, I doubt I would've bothered to learn about Asperger's or how it affects people; I have much to think about as it is in my already-crammed brain so adding to it isn't something I go out of my way to do, however, I felt it necessary so I could better understand you. If it weren't personal, to a degree, I am reasonably certain I would not have taken the time.
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As we Aspies go many miles out of our way every moment of every day for NT's is it so much to expect an NT to come some way towards us? Would you be asking this question if my disability were visible?
Bolding is from Thorsteinn's quote (couldn't get just that part in).
I think some of the problem is that people just don't even know there is a problem when they can't readily see it. I'm in healthcare, and I encounter the gamut of personalities all day long. Some of them have legitimate behavioral issues and I always make accommodations for that once I know, and others are just jerks (who do not accommodate as much). My point is I have the luxury of a medical chart to give me a heads up, your man on the street does not. I would like to think most people would try to be accommodating if they knew what was up, but then again most people aren't like the Modern Chivalry crew.
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Sir Brian's correction puts Sir Ian's response right on the mark. I would not call it absurd- but i suspect he does because he may have no experience in what it is like to be ostracized due to not being viewed as 'normal'.
Ha! I wish this were true. I say it's absurd because as a person who has most definitely experienced this first hand I had to accept that the world will not bend and change for me and it would be ridiculous for me to expect it to. You have to decide whether you will simply accept that the world will not go out of its way to understand what makes you a unique snowflake and just move on with your life , or you must modify your own behavior or whatever it is in your case (if that's even possible) if your desire to be accepted by a group is so strong that just moving on is not something you're willing to do.
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•"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path."-Buddha
•"As a single footstep will not make a path on the earth, so a single thought will not make a pathway in the mind. To make a deep physical path, we walk again and again. To make a deep mental path, we must think over and over the kind of thoughts we wish to dominate our lives."-Henry David Thoreau
•"March on. Do not tarry. To go forward is to move toward perfection. March on, and fear not the thorns, or the sharp stones on life's path."-Khalil Gibran
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As we Aspies go many miles out of our way every moment of every day for NT's is it so much to expect an NT to come some way towards us? Would you be asking this question if my disability were visible?
Bolding is from Thorsteinn's quote (couldn't get just that part in).
I think some of the problem is that people just don't even know there is a problem when they can't readily see it. I'm in healthcare, and I encounter the gamut of personalities all day long. Some of them have legitimate behavioral issues and I always make accommodations for that once I know, and others are just jerks (who do not accommodate as much). My point is I have the luxury of a medical chart to give me a heads up, your man on the street does not. I would like to think most people would try to be accommodating if they knew what was up, but then again most people aren't like the Modern Chivalry crew.
Very well said.
Thorsteinn, are most of your friends making some effort towards your aspergers? If so, they know what others can't see; as you said, it isn't visible. It's a bit like asking why people are so rude that they won't even wave at the ghosts walking down the street with them. If they can't see it, they can't be expected to act upon it.