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Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Thorsteinn on 2011-10-31, 16:04:38
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Combat of the Thirty video from Pennsic War.
Combat of the 30 from Pennsic Wars XL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ywv2icHEVQ#ws)
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Great shots!
I really long for the day that this level of kit would become the 'standard' for the SCA. I don't want to start an SCA argument, but if CotT was the norm, boy oh boy the SCA would be absolutely awesome. And, as I understand it, the rules of the game are a little different during CotT in that armor actually protects the body part it's worn on. I never understood the rules of heavy list in that armor doesn't serve it's purpose. You get hit in the arm, you lose your arm... well, that's why I'm wearing armor, so that very thing doesn't happen... doesn't make sense to me. It ends up putting you at a disadvantage in the sport to wear full armor, which I never understood.
Are there more things like CotT within the SCA? I understand the Deed of Arms at Gulf Wars might be similar?
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COTT is what happens when you have a hosted tourney instead of a standard.
Pas d'Arms happen all the time and can have many different rules. We even did an eastern themed one once.
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I have been in a number of the 30s; I skipped it this year because I was a bit sick on Sunday. If this was how the SCA was most of the time I would fight way more. It is so much more fun than the standard tournament or melee style.
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So how do the different rules compare? & BTW, how does one defeat his foe if he is fully armoured the in COTT or similar tourneys?
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I'd be more interested in the SCA if they used rebated steel, instead of rattan. Oh, and if the general attitude wasn't so shitty (my perception based on my experiences with some members of the SCA).
Loved the vid, I caught onto what this guy was doing a couple months ago...I think its great because it'll give greater visibility, and by showcasing events like CoTT the focus is less on rhino types and more about how a true battle may have played out. Those guys certainly look damn good out there!
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I think rebated steel would ruin the actual appeal of it, that it's full-contact & full force. I've done demos with rebated steel, and one really has to keep on their toes, even with pulled blows.
I want to try SCA sometime. I like the aspect of fighting with hundreds or thousands on a field at once, and it sounds like a real ball of fun.
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Sorry I did not see the earlier question about the rules.
The CotT rules are this:
3 solid strikes in a row from a mass weapon, long sword, or polearm to the head you are captured.
Armor is as worn, maille on legs and arms are counted as protection, none is no protection. A thrust to an open area like the under arms, back of the leg, groin, or if you have a bargrill helmet, to the face, is death.
Short swords do no cutting damage.
You can strike from behind unlike other SCA combat.
No rules on how many attackers at a time unlike SCA combat.
All must have a 14th century style kit.
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Sorry I did not see the earlier question about the rules.
The CotT rules are this:
3 solid strikes in a row from a mass weapon, long sword, or polearm to the head you are captured.
Armor is as worn, maille on legs and arms are counted as protection, none is no protection. A thrust to an open area like the under arms, back of the leg, groin, or if you have a bargrill helmet, to the face, is death.
Short swords do no cutting damage.
You can strike from behind unlike other SCA combat.
No rules on how many attackers at a time unlike SCA combat.
All must have a 14th century style kit.
Those rules sound pretty good. My SCA time was short because I refused the "genericelt" plastic armor with minimal steel, and would only wear "full plate". I was never competitive because my armor weighed a good 60ish pounds (give or take), but I was a great moving pell. :)
Actual armor counting as actual armor? Huzzah for that! :D
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Those rules sound pretty good. My SCA time was short because I refused the "genericelt" plastic armor with minimal steel, and would only wear "full plate". I was never competitive because my armor weighed a good 60ish pounds (give or take), but I was a great moving pell. :)
Actual armor counting as actual armor? Huzzah for that! :D
Sorry, I must speak for my people. 60 lbs and you were not competitive? Where do you live? :o
My kit is north of 45lbs and will be getting heavier and I finish well in both the Crown and Coronet tourney's.
I can definitely get you in touch with some very good teachers no matter where you are who could help you if you wished to kick much butt in full plate.
See full plate is like the light side of the force. The road is longer but the rewards are greater. Plasti-generi-celt is the Dark Side:
"Is the dark side stronger?"
"No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive. But once you start down it's dark path forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will!"
Trust me and trust Duke Sir James Greyhelm, 7 time King of the West, who made armour for 20 yrs, has fought for over 30 years and in full plate for almost all of it. His old squire is Duke Sir Jake of Starfall, 16 time King of the West, and his gran-squire is Duke Sir Uther Schiemann Der Hunt, 9 time King of the West and 1 time King of An-Tir.
While Jade & Uther are big boy's. James is 5' 7" and about 140lbs.
-Ivan
Heavy fighter of 12 years, Marshal for 18, and Constable of the Silver Desert.
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Out here in Atlantia the typical kit is helmet, leather arm guards, plastic body, thigh armor mostly quilted or plastic. Kits are light and the super dukes typically lose the body and thigh armor and go minimum for Crown. I don't know of a single top end fighter in all plate.
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I think rebated steel would ruin the actual appeal of it, that it's full-contact & full force. I've done demos with rebated steel, and one really has to keep on their toes, even with pulled blows.
I want to try SCA sometime. I like the aspect of fighting with hundreds or thousands on a field at once, and it sounds like a real ball of fun.
That is sort of my point; when fighting w/steel in steel, you don't want casual fighters- you have to be able to trust your adversary not to kill you, and likewise. The SCA is perfect for the casual types, actually, it seems to be a fit across the board, with all others having one thing or another that does not appeal, but overall seem to be getting along well enough. Ok, there's some internecine bickering but that's to be expected when you have such a large membership from all walks of life like they do.
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I just can't get passed the 'armor doesn't protect you' aspect. That's why the top-fighters wear minimum kingdom requirements, because you put yourself at a distinct disadvantage by wearing a nice and historically accurate kit. It feels too much like a sport that evolved to serve its own purpose instead of being about the historical personas they're trying to represent. Being at a disadvantage because you're wearing nice and historically correct armor blows my mind.
That's why I love to see things like CotT. The kits look awesome, the armor you're wearing protects the body part it's well... protecting. I get the whole plastic armor gets you on the field mentality, but it should be something to aspire to move on from. Like I said earlier, if CotT was the standard I'd be all over the SCA.
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Regarding the armour not working thing. I have seen folks bitch that someone was not taking their shots. The supposed rhino was wearing a maille hauberk over good gambeseon, leather legs & arms, and an aventail.
The maille wearer was asked and he said that the blows didn't get through well enough to count.
What I mean to say is that this guy couldn't get through the assumed standard. Had the guy not been wearing maille it would have been a different calibration for sure.
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Those rules sound pretty good. My SCA time was short because I refused the "genericelt" plastic armor with minimal steel, and would only wear "full plate". I was never competitive because my armor weighed a good 60ish pounds (give or take), but I was a great moving pell. :)
Actual armor counting as actual armor? Huzzah for that! :D
Sorry, I must speak for my people. 60 lbs and you were not competitive? Where do you live? :o
My kit is north of 45lbs and will be getting heavier and I finish well in both the Crown and Coronet tourney's.
I can definitely get you in touch with some very good teachers no matter where you are who could help you if you wished to kick much butt in full plate.
See full plate is like the light side of the force. The road is longer but the rewards are greater. Plasti-generi-celt is the Dark Side:
"Is the dark side stronger?"
"No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive. But once you start down it's dark path forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will!"
Trust me and trust Duke Sir James Greyhelm, 7 time King of the West, who made armour for 20 yrs, has fought for over 30 years and in full plate for almost all of it. His old squire is Duke Sir Jake of Starfall, 16 time King of the West, and his gran-squire is Duke Sir Uther Schiemann Der Hunt, 9 time King of the West and 1 time King of An-Tir.
While Jade & Uther are big boy's. James is 5' 7" and about 140lbs.
-Ivan
Heavy fighter of 12 years, Marshal for 18, and Constable of the Silver Desert.
Out here in Atlantia the typical kit is helmet, leather arm guards, plastic body, thigh armor mostly quilted or plastic. Kits are light and the super dukes typically lose the body and thigh armor and go minimum for Crown. I don't know of a single top end fighter in all plate.
James Barker covered it spot on. It was about a decade ago and Atlantia (northern virginia), just local fighter practice. The only other person with a good bit of actual plate armor was the host, who had a fantastic cavalier kit - along with 20+ years of experience armoring and fighting, plus a motto of "old age and treachery will beat youth and enthusiasm every time". But I never saw a set of greaves (besides my cased greaves), and I don't even recall even seeing spaulders or rerebraces (again, besides my own). :(
The biggest hurdle for me is that I'm a fat computer programmer with previous separate injuries to both of my knees & my back/hips (hospital trip strapped to a backboard on that one....), as well as being stuck with a less-than-average cardiac & respiratory system since I was little (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectus_excavatum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectus_excavatum)) - and breathing and a strong heart are two rather important things for wearing and moving quickly in armor. :) I'd have to get myself into substantially better shape before I could be much of anything but a slowly moving (but nicely armored!) pell. I do plan to address some needed weight loss this year; I was rather winded after a few unarmored bouts with Sir Nathan a couple months ago.
I'm quite happy to wear and/or admire (ogle/drool over) a nicely done harness, and though I may be a heretic for saying it - the high quality of armor at CotT (or any event) is often more exciting to me than the actual tournament bouts. Competitive or not, the greatest thrill of it for me is enjoying the doing, win or lose, rather than winning at the cost of my enjoyment.
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Me vs my mom at May Coronet last year.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschine#p/u/62/gojSBD_euKc (http://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschine#p/u/62/gojSBD_euKc)
I will be adding splint migration period greaves and arms, an aventail, and a byrnie. I feel I will get better for this (Look good. Feel good. Fight good). We have a guy up here who will be a top end fighter soon enough named Alesz who fights in full plate from head to toe. The reason he does so well is fit of kit. He makes everything but his helm and has talent so everything he does fits him and is mounted properly.
Perhaps the fit of the kit was messing with you to? In plate, more than any other armour, proper fit matters so very much.
-Ivan
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The biggest hurdle for me is that I'm a fat computer programmer with previous separate injuries to both of my knees & my back/hips (hospital trip strapped to a backboard on that one....), as well as being stuck with a less-than-average cardiac & respiratory system since I was little (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectus_excavatum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectus_excavatum)) - and breathing and a strong heart are two rather important things for wearing and moving quickly in armor. :) I'd have to get myself into substantially better shape before I could be much of anything but a slowly moving (but nicely armored!) pell. I do plan to address some needed weight loss this year; I was rather winded after a few unarmored bouts with Sir Nathan a couple months ago.
I totally understand, believe me. I don't have a congenital condition or old injuries stopping me, except an old knee injury that I have to be very careful about. But I suffer from the "sedentary computer guy" problem, pretty badly.
The nice thing about doing the WMA/HEMA thing is that most of what we're doing is unarmored combat, with protective gear. You don't need to work up to it the way you do with armor, and in fact, you learn to fight efficiently and not use excessive energy. The biggest lesson for me was just to simply relax. If you get too tense or overly enthusiastic, you just get tired faster.
Also, I can't stress how useful cardio exercise is. I've been away from it for several months, so my endurance is all gone... but what I was doing was about 25 minutes on a stationary bike, 2 or 3 times a week. And these were high-intensity rides. I'd push the heart rate up to 150 for the whole time, and try to out-do the previous calories/speed/distance each time. Suddenly a two minute sword-fight would be just fine, instead of making me want to fall over and pass out. :)
I'm back to that "just let me die" level of fatigue, so I need to start hitting the gym again too.
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I think most of us Gen X'rs might suffer from 'sedentary computer guy' syndrome to varying degrees...except maybe Sir Brian who seems to be pretty active compared to me anyway. ;)
Learning to relax is probably the greatest lesson I took away with me after our impromptu fencing bouts, the second one being cardio is of course, key. It is amazing how quickly you can lose the benefit, even if you do it often...walk away for a while and it tells.
Sir Edward, have a care at pushing your heart rate to the max...it isn't always a benefit. Two years ago, one of the members of my gym, Doug, who was a staunch cardio guy- 4 to 5 times a week, this guy would spend 30 minutes on a stair stepper, 30 on a treadmill- but it wasn't a casual type of workout...he hit it hard, on both machines, nearly every day. Doug was 46 when he suffered his first cardiac episode; he was drenched in sweat, I walked by to change up in the locker room. I come out, and Doug's laid out on the floor, with the stair stepper on top of him. I pulled it off him and his eyes were gone, not there, as he struggled for breath, then stopped breathing altogether. Someone dropped down to give him CPR and I called out the cadence...he'd breathe by himself or a few moments, but then stop again. EMS got there pretty quick but before they did, I learned some critical lessons.
1. The auto-defib machine is exactly that- once you hook up the electrodes, step back. Nearly got myself and the woman compressing his chest a nice zap...I don't know that it'd be enough to harm but better safe than sorry, right?
2. Going and staying at max heart rate for any length of time on a regular basis can do harm, especially as you get older. It turns out Doug was simply pushing himself too hard...had he been doing it on his home gym who knows what the turnout would've been?
I saw him last year...he was thinner, said he was still doing cardio but not at that level and seemed to be in good health and spirits. 65% of max heartrate for fat burning, 80% for cardio- stick with it.
One of the best fat-burner things I do is to set the incline as high as it can go on a treadmill, grab a couple of 5lb weights and walk uphill for 20 or so minutes at 3 or so mph...doesn't sound like much, but I guarantee 5 minutes in you're going to start feeling if not already. I've toppled all the big muscly guys with this exercise...one monster who likes to tell people just how strong he is dropped his weights (he decided to go with 20lbs in each hand) less than 5 minutes in and was holding on to the top of the machine about halfway through. He refuses to do it ever again. lol
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Well, fat burning and cardio are two very different things. Maximum fat burn will not yield maximum performance of the heart and lungs. Traditional fitness ideas state that long, low intensity activity (i.e. a 60 minute jog) is more effective at burning fat than a 35 minute high intensity activity. This is because you have to burn through your carbohydrate stores before the body begins to burn its fat stores. Carbs are the body's primary energy source, fat being a secondary long term source, so you're body will use carbs for the initial part of any aerobic activity before it turns to its fat stores to use as energy.
One way 'around' the long sessions of boring exercise is to use high intensity interval training. The constant up and down of your heart rate is proven to more effectively increase heart/lung performance as well as burn fat, in a lot less time.
One thing a lot of people who lead sedentary life styles don't want to hear is that, you really need to do resistance training too. Building muscle not only burns fat when you're exercising, but people with increased muscle mass burn more fat while resting as well. The last key is of course nutrition, which is not only the most important aspect, but the most difficult for most people to adjust to. And old saying is abs are made in the kitchen, not in the gym.
If you want something structured I recommend a program like P90X. It's very adjustable to different fitness levels, covers all aspects of fitness (Resistance / Cardio / Nutrition) and if you do the work, and follow the program you will get results. I've done both P90X and Insanity and got in better shape with those programs than any other previous program I've done (being in the military I've been exposed to a lot and have also used traditional gyms). I do not recommend Insanity for someone who is not already in GOOD shape. P90X however is friendly to beginners and pros alike, and if you're serious about getting in shape AND becoming healthier, I can't recommend it enough.
And when it comes down to it, I think fitness is an incredibly important aspect to ANY martial activity. It will make you faster, stronger, more competitive, and it will ward off injury in both the long and short-term. I don't mean to indite the entire WMA / SCA crowd out there, but let's face it, the overwhelming majority are not exactly in tip top shape, and then complain about chronic injury and why they have to quit heavy list on the AA... take your fitness seriously, and this will not be you! Look at the off-the-shelf sizes for re-enactment clothing! They don't exactly cater to people with lean athletic builds.... lots of XXL's out there. Knights were surely not slovenly and out of shape in real life! Their lives depended on their physical conditioning.
oh, and by the way, I spend a LOT of time playing computer games! ;D but I also challenge myself to continually improve my fitness level
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I hate to use myself as an example, especially because Ian's probably in exponentially better shape than me, but lots of computer games and sedinatry can work with being fit.
I usually get about 45min to an hour of exercise about 5 days a week, and do well. Especially considered I have the metabolism of a 50 year old man.
My problem is food. Always the darn food :o
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I usually get about 45min to an hour of exercise about 5 days a week, and do well.
If you eat right that's really all you need to be in very good shape, as long as you use that time wisely. You definitely don't need to spend hours and hours in the gym to get in to great shape.
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My rotator cuff is torn because I didn't exercise enough before going out and fighting alot over 3 days.
There. I said it. I was too fat and old to do that in those weather conditions.
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Yeah, there's a variety of charts out there that show your optimal heart rates, adjusted for age. I push it into the upper zone for my age, but not beyond. I can feel when I'm getting to that point, as it's difficult to push harder. So don't worry, I'm not overstressing myself. :)
I started out doing lots of resistance work too, but slacked off. I need to start that up again as well.
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At nearly 49 years old I’m finding myself constantly on the losing side of the ‘battle of the bulge’. In your forties your testosterone production can drastically drop off, which will affect your metabolism; muscle mass and energy level so as you age you should make sure to get a complete physical to help identify any such deficiencies. Even though I walk several miles a day it doesn’t do much for my overall stamina which I really need to work on my off days of WMA training. :-\
One issue I’ve been plagued with in recent months is a bad case of ‘lateral epicondylitis’ (tennis elbow) which can be directly attributed and compounded by computer usage. The best prescribed treatment is to rest it but I can’t rest it if my job depends on my using that arm with a computer mouse. I’ve considered eventually getting cortisone shots for it but recent studies cast some serious doubts of cortisone injections effectiveness, mainly they actually impede the full recovery process as opposed to physical therapy and rest.
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Me vs my mom at May Coronet last year.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschine#p/u/62/gojSBD_euKc (http://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschine#p/u/62/gojSBD_euKc)
I will be adding splint migration period greaves and arms, an aventail, and a byrnie. I feel I will get better for this (Look good. Feel good. Fight good). We have a guy up here who will be a top end fighter soon enough named Alesz who fights in full plate from head to toe. The reason he does so well is fit of kit. He makes everything but his helm and has talent so everything he does fits him and is mounted properly.
Perhaps the fit of the kit was messing with you to? In plate, more than any other armour, proper fit matters so very much.
-Ivan
That's a good looking SCA harness, Ivan. I like the cuirass. Splint greaves and arms would really make it "pop".
The fitment of my kit was as good as can be expected from an internet order. It was full pseudo-16th Cent italian, full breast and back with faulds and tassets, pauldrons (not spaulders), fully enclosed rerebrace and vambraces, full-wrap elbows (not fans), cuisses (one full-wrap - left/shield side, the other half), full greaves, plus of course the helm and gauntlets. The only thing I didn't wear was sabatons, as I never got them finished. The horrible blue closed-cell foam w/black fabric padding is what I wore under it, and definitely *does not* breathe well. :) Maybe I could have been competitive with some years of experience and some training; if I try SCA again, I'm going to go samurai with it. It could be a fun suit to make, since it's all smaller plates and lacing, I can probably tackle that. I've got 90% of the plates patterned out on poster board, if I just dust them off and finish up. A summer project, maybe.
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Making your own gear to fit you can really help.
I made the:
Curiass,
Shield,
Gambeseon,
Leg harness,
Half-gauntlet.
I had custom made:
Helm,
Bazubands.
I modded till-it-bloody-well-fit-thank-you!:
Gorget,
Gautlets,
Knee cops.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/224195_204101949629454_100000889510293_594338_2242170_n.jpg)
If you want some help on that kit I will give it. I know many good techniques and resources for the man on a budget.
I also know how to get a hold of this man:
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1287/1113680417_f19629afe1_z.jpg?zz=1)
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That's Nissan right?
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Yessir!
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Is that his plastic harness? Hard to tell the difference at distance...he's got a really nice one in steel too.
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I recognize the Dread Lord from Armour Archive. His samurai kit is very inspirational.
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Sir Brian, do you take anything for the diminishing testosterone levels?
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Yes, my doctor prescribed a topical drug called AndroGel which I apply twice daily. He typically will have a blood test done each year before renewing the prescription. ;)
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How is that working out for you?
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Much better than the alternative of zero energy, weight gain and consistent fatigue. ;)
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No side effects?
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Much better than the alternative of zero energy, weight gain and consistent fatigue. ;)
I get those side effects without taking any medication. :D
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No side effects?
None for me, about the worst anyone would have to worry about is an acute allergic reaction that can eventually develop into respiratory issues but that is typically preceded by a severe rash. Also pregnant women really have to avoid coming in contact with it...You don't plan on getting your wife pregnant again anytime soon right? ;)
http://www.drugs.com/androgel.html (http://www.drugs.com/androgel.html)
Much better than the alternative of zero energy, weight gain and consistent fatigue. ;)
I get those side effects without taking any medication. :D
But Sir James those are the symptoms of low testosterone levels! ;)
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No side effects?
i think he has to "consult" his physician every Sunday morning ;) hahahah sorry ehehehe