ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2010-07-19, 21:17:36
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OK, so I'm getting really tempted now to also step into the mid to late 14th C in addition to the other kits I have. I really like some of the armor in this period, except for those god-awful houndskull bascinets. So I'd look to other helms of the period.
I'm open to all sorts of suggestions here. Mainly, I want to make sure I do a reasonable job of pointing or strapping or whatever. I noticed that a lot of the appropriate gear from Mercenary's Tailor gives you the choice between buckled straps, or holes for pointing. Pointing is probably more period correct, but I'm not opposed to having pieces that are strapped to each other for suspension either.
To get started, it looks like it might be fairly easy to get a set of arms and legs, use the merc's tailor spaulders I already have, and wear it over the mail. With a decent over-tunic, I can probably save getting a new breastplate or brigandine for later. I also already have a small open-faced bascinet with integrated ventail that might work well enough for now (from Museum Replicas).
So one question that comes up already is this-- how should I point the top of the arms? It would be over mail, with sleeves that end right around the elbow. I usually don't wear a full gambeson under this stuff because of all the 85+ degree weather. And I'm not going to wear mail over my arming cotte that I have for the plate armor, simply because it has those voiders on it. :)
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I do have a set of spaulders already, but this looks pretty interesting too:
14th-15th Century Arms with Integral Spaulders (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=122)
But of course this would work with the spaulders I have:
14th/15th Century Arms (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=35)
And a set of legs, though the rondels don't match the style of the above arms:
14th-15th Century Legs (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=116)
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Ed, I can make you the arms with the rondels if you'd like. I've meant to for ages and just never get around to it ( i've actually made 6 pairs for folks and never remember to take pics ).
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If you don't like the houdskull visor, I recommend going with some sort of klapvisor or round nose one. Here's one that I've always loved from Anshelm:
(http://www.anshelmarms.com/images/armor/bascinetrn.jpg)
(bascinets) http://www.anshelmarms.com/bascinets.html
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Ed, I can make you the arms with the rondels if you'd like. I've meant to for ages and just never get around to it ( i've actually made 6 pairs for folks and never remember to take pics ).
That would be super sweet. I love that look!
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i am looking at this too. if you look at http://www.gothiceye.com/pictures.asp?categoryID=3&offset=18 and http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm you can really see the strapping around certain areas.
it all depends really on the date and area really as to what you are looking for. i mean 1320s and 30s can show 3/4 arms over mail while the vambracers are under the mail and then 1340s the arms are all 1 solid piece. and then the greaves are still gutter shaped with soup can knees till the 50s or even 70s in some effigies. so its a fun game of mix and match for sure:)
for the faire kit, i would wear the bassinet without the visor. what would rock is if your great helm fit over the bassinet like the black prince helm combo from Museum Reps did. (i think)
i too am struggling what to do. money is a major factor in the house with the lil one on the way.
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Here's a klapvisor bascinet that isn't too pricey from Armour and Castings. I've always been skeptical of their work, but after seeing Tom Leoni's new armet from them, I'm much more inclined to get a helmet from them in the future.
(http://armourandcastings.com/images/uploads/helmets/bascinet/b1380ex1.jpg)
http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=565
If you aren't looking for facial protection, you may also consider some form of kettle hat.
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If you were thinking of using the helmet for class, you may want to consider the new WMA line of helmets that Windrose is making called "The Fiore". I don't know if you saw these at WMAW, but they're really good for an inexpensive price:
(http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/images/armour_images/Fiore_piercedfront.jpg)
http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=561
They have two options for the face plate. One is perforated blackened steel (meant to be a more modern look), and the other is a somewhat anachronistic "tournament style" visor (which is the one I've linked to here... it captures the feel pretty well, even if not 100% historical). Its meant to be a helmet for Western Martial Arts usage. For something like the faire you could also always take the visor off, too.
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I also already have a small open-faced bascinet with integrated ventail that might work well enough for now (from Museum Replicas).
I remember you letting me try those on the last day of the 2009 MDRF, they are a sweet combination and the bascinet with the aventail would work well with your updated harness.
So one question that comes up already is this-- how should I point the top of the arms? It would be over mail, with sleeves that end right around the elbow. I usually don't wear a full gambeson under this stuff because of all the 85+ degree weather. And I'm not going to wear mail over my arming cotte that I have for the plate armor, simply because it has those voiders on it. :)
Well you could try what I’ve been using, the wrestling jacket from revival clothing.
http://www.revivalclothing.com/medievalwrestlingjacket.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/medievalwrestlingjacket.aspx)
It isn’t too heavy but thick enough to give you adequate cushion against armor bites. You could always add your own points to it and lace it through the mail although I would consider that method more of a pain than a simple belt harness that I use now for my spaulders. :-\
btw, I LOVE the Klapvisor helms! I really hope Tim over at Red Falcon will be able to do that custom visor I asked him about at NCRF.
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Great suggestions here!! That helm from Anshelm does look pretty sweet. I think any of the klapvisors would work pretty well. I'm going to work the kit out as a nice visual kit (meaning, renfaire worthy) first, but I want to be able to fight with it in class as well, so I may get one of the anachronistic fencing helms as well later.
As much as I like the kettle helms, the downside of them is this... I want to be able to walk into a room and have people think "there's a knight!!!" I've learned it's all about the helm, and choosing the right one. :)
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With a decent over-tunic, I can probably save getting a new breastplate or brigandine for later.
FYI, I would go for a coat of plates rather than a brigandine. While there are some brigs that start appearing in the end of the 14th century, most of the ones on the market are distinctively 15th (unless if they are coat of plates that are being misnamed as brigs).
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so I may get one of the anachronistic fencing helms as well later.
And to be fair, they aren't *that* anachronistic when compared to most helmets that are sold on the market. Most have things that are just as incorrect.
Since you have the MRL one, I think you'll be fine for the moment.
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Ed, I can make you the arms with the rondels if you'd like. I've meant to for ages and just never get around to it ( i've actually made 6 pairs for folks and never remember to take pics ).
Man, that would be awesome. I'll be in contact soon probably. :)
This is going to sting, having ordered those riveted chausses, and now some more plate. But it's OK. When I switched jobs, I got paid for more than 6 weeks of unused leave. :)
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If you don't like the houdskull visor, I recommend going with some sort of klapvisor or round nose one. Here's one that I've always loved from Anshelm:
(http://www.anshelmarms.com/images/armor/bascinetrn.jpg)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/bascinets.html
Man, I just had to look at that one. Ugh, by the time you add in the liner, strapping, drilling, etc, and get it in stainless, it'll add up to $800 just for the helm. $900 if you get engraved brass trim too (geometric pattern). But I really like that one... arg....
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Yeah, I hear you. I recall finding that page about 7 years ago, before I had any armor. I was seriously considering going 14th century back then, and that was my dream helmet. I just couldn't afford it.
Nowadays I'm so much more of a snob, though. :) Still, you could get one that is a little less fancy to keep the cost down, and possibly do some of the work (like the liner) yourself.
Of course, for myself, my tastes have grown beyond my abilities, so I would rather pay someone to do it right instead of me attempting it, then never being quite happy with it. :)
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oh sure, i try to up my 13thc kit and now you move on to mid-late 14th hehehhe
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(sca,gorget)
http://cgi.ebay.com/suit-armor-sca-steel-arms-legs-breastplate-gorget-/150467918360?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2308963a18 (http://cgi.ebay.com/suit-armor-sca-steel-arms-legs-breastplate-gorget-/150467918360?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2308963a18)
(modified by Ed to fix URL)
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Nowadays I'm so much more of a snob, though. :) Still, you could get one that is a little less fancy to keep the cost down, and possibly do some of the work (like the liner) yourself.
Of course, for myself, my tastes have grown beyond my abilities, so I would rather pay someone to do it right instead of me attempting it, then never being quite happy with it. :)
I'm totally in the same boat. I just don't have the skills to do it right. It's easier (not necessarily easy, just easier) to just pay for someone else to do it properly. But at least I can defer the helm part a little while.
At some point I also need to think about gauntlets. Hourglass or Wisby? Hmmm... :) I have those really junky hourglass gaunts I use in class... but I don't consider that a permanent solution. All the rest of the ones I have are out of period. I can probably defer this for a little while too.
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oh sure, i try to up my 13thc kit and now you move on to mid-late 14th hehehhe
lol, don't worry, I'm still working on my early 14th C kit as well (yeah, I can't really call it 13th C anymore... maybe c.1300 roughly).
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Ed, I can make you the arms with the rondels if you'd like. I've meant to for ages and just never get around to it ( i've actually made 6 pairs for folks and never remember to take pics ).
Man, that would be awesome. I'll be in contact soon probably. :)
Order placed!
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It's a shame CAS/Hanwei's GDFB mail doesn't include stainless steel and wedge riveted flat links in the same sets...
http://cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=AB3078 (http://cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=AB3078)
Tempting though.
The full-length hauberk would work great for the early 14th kit, but for the late 14th, think a Haubergeon would be more appropriate?
http://cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=AB3084 (http://cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=AB3084)
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i think it's all in how ya want it. get both ;) full sleeves would be better for earlier stuff which shorter sleeves are better for later. but then again, shorter sleeves you can do like way earlier like viking etc hahhaha
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have you found a effigy or picture of another kit for what your shooting to look like? can we see it? :)
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i think it's all in how ya want it. get both ;) full sleeves would be better for earlier stuff which shorter sleeves are better for later. but then again, shorter sleeves you can do like way earlier like viking etc hahhaha
Yah, I was talking to my girlfriend last night about this stuff. I mentioned I might need two sets of riveted mail, in stainless (low maintenance)... that's when she got quiet and I could practically hear her eyes rolling. Hah. I think I need to get more convincing. I mean, with enough pieces of armor, it can be modular and make a variety of kits within a span of a century or three. :)
have you found a effigy or picture of another kit for what your shooting to look like? can we see it? :)
Not yet. I haven't had much chance to look much over yet.
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or 20 ;)
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Yeah, she mentioned that. It didn't seem to help that I'm only interested in about 3 centuries. :) lol
I like what this fellow has been doing. Mine will be a little different of course:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/3796182715/
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/3796182715_fc06740cb2.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/3796182715/)
(he has a good description of it on that page)
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/3796182715/
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/3796182715_fc06740cb2.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/3796182715/)
(he has a good description of it on that page)
Say, that's really good looking!
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so is this what your shooting for this year at faire?
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I'm hoping to have to usable this year, yes, but I won't wear it exclusively. I rarely wear armor twice in one weekend, and this year I should be free to attend more weekends than in the last 7 years. The new job doesn't have me on pager duty 50% of the time. :)
I still think of my c.1300 kit as my main look.
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Sooo I have a real good chance of seeing you in the steel this year? ;)
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Sooo I have a real good chance of seeing you in the steel this year? ;)
Totally! My hope is to have three harnesses as such this time around (early 14th, mid/late 14th, and my plate). Not to mention, I'll be able to bring out my new nobles at some point as well (just took delivery this weekend!)
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pictures?
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pictures?
RE the nobles... Not yet, I only have a few while it was still being finished. I'll look and see if one of those is good enough, otherwise pictures may need to wait a bit.
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have you found a effigy or picture of another kit for what your shooting to look like? can we see it? :)
Looked a bit here: http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm (http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm)
It's interesting, the predominant style is still the mail and longer surcoat up into the 1330's, with some mix during that decade, then mostly plate and mail mixed by about 1340, with the 1340's still having surcoats around knee-length if they have them instead of a shorter coat of plates. These longer surcoats persist up through the 1350's on some effigies. Everything is mid-thigh or crotch length after 1360.
The earliest case of plate with rondels over mail is about 1323 though. In the mid 1320's there's at least one case with a jack-chain style of rudimentary elbow and shoulder cops over mail instead of plate, with mostly mail persisting into the 1330's.
Mail mittens still seem to be the most common until the early 1340's, though at least one effigy in the 1320's has what appears to be heavier gauntlets. Around 1350, demi-gaunts and some sort of heavy glove seem common. Progressing through the 1350's and 1360's, hourglass and Wisby style gaunts show up.
So depending on which decade I'm looking at, I have a lot of options. Once the simple plate starts to appear, it's not long before more ornate stuff is on the scene, so it's more the surcoat and coat of plates that changes during these decades. The rondels on the elbows become scarce later in the century, but can still be seen as late as the 1380's.
I could aim for somewhere around 1350, and have a mid-thigh to knee length surcoat, mixing mail and plate with the rondels, and a bascinet, and it would be in period. I could potentially put a demi-gaunt over a glove and have that work too.
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OK, so this is where things stand on this kit. I have the Merc's Tailor spaulders, arms, and legs. I'm thinking I may use my Revival Clothing arming cotte and pourpoint for the time being to hold them all together. Still need to make the surcoat/jupon.
(CoP)
I also need a coat of plates, and I'm looking at this one here: http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/CoP.html (http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/CoP.html)
I can still use the MRL bascinet for the time being, but I'll look into something nicer later. For the renfaire, I may not both wearing the helm at all. We'll see.
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that is a nice one. i wouldn't got for their dagged look, something odd about it, looks more like a SCAism. what color? i don't see blue as an option? heheh
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Their prices seem a tad high IMO. :-\
Are you sure you didn't want Allan or Nute to make the plates for you and then you make the COP yourself with blue leather? That would look cool! :)
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I have too much to do right now to make it myself. I really want someone to just make it for me. If I can't get it in blue, then I'll get black. It'll be under a jupon/surcoat anyway.
Yeah, I'd like more historical dags if I could get them. Know of any other sources for wisby-style CoP?
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Sorry no, and it's not surprising that few vendors are making CoPs since they appear to be pretty straight forward to make.
I was going to have either Nute or Allan make the plates for me and I was going to buy the rivets and leather from Tandy
leather to make mine this winter but I might be too busy myself with my harnass overhaul. :-\
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You guys are bad for my sanity...love that coat of plates, I'd go w/out the dagged look myself, unless I were doing a 14th C or later- oop, I just might be!
Thanks for posting that, Sir Edward...I maybe acquiring one myself!
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http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7&products_id=28
http://www.woodsarmoury.com/body.asp
(CoP)
http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/CoP.html
http://www.whiteroseapparel.com/brigandines.htm
http://www.anshelmarms.com/bodyarmor.html
just a few i had at work. i know i have more at home
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Awesome. I'm liking the one from Anshelm. I already looked at Windrose, but theirs is one size, for a 48" chest, and would be too big. One of the others is overseas, and hugely expensive, so that's off the table too.
Anshelm has more historic dags... and they use aircraft aluminum... no rust!!! :)
http://www.anshelmarms.com/bodyarmor.html (http://www.anshelmarms.com/bodyarmor.html)
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Yea, I don't much care for the one-size-fits-all philosophy.
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wintertree posted on teh archive. i asked him about blue color and using aluminum as the metal
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Is it me or are most of what we've seen sized for men w/larger waists than chests?
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well remember. by the early 14th century you wore a poupoint to hold up your pants, maybe a linen tunic, a aketon or arming garment under you mail, mail then your coat of plates. you gain a little bit of room then ehhehe. besides some of us are built like barrels ;)
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It's hard to say. These days, it's a pretty safe bet that most enthusiasts are a little larger around the middle than they'd prefer to be. :) But they're not always designed that way. The Revival Clothing pourpoint I ordered is pretty snug in the middle, but I can slightly overlap it over the top of the chest. It was clearly meant for someone more athletic than myself. Either that or they want you to really be able to tighten it down around the waist and reshape yourself a little. :)
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Yeah my Revival Clothing pourpoint has become a little loose with the weight loss so I'll have to take it in or I might just strategically put some eyelets in sides or back to snug it in tighter. :-\
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sir edward!!!! got wintertree. heres what he said to me: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=123655&highlight=
I don't work in aluminum. I can, however, make these in stainless for a small extra charge to cover the difference in materials cost if your friend is concerned with maintenance.
If weight is his sticking point, I would throw out there that for an average sized person these steel CoP's weigh 8-9 lbs tops and when properly fitted and worn you really don't notice the weight difference when compared to say a 4-5lb aluminum CoP.
I actually have some blue leather left over from another custom CoP that may be sufficient to make another one. If not, I can order most reasonable colors pretty quickly.
I have attached a pic of a CoP made with said blue leather. The client was larger than I am so the CoP fits very loosely in this picture, but you get the idea.
My contact info is on my website and my turnaround time is currently about 2 weeks out if you or your friend have any further questions or want to place an order.
bluecop1.jpg
Description:
Blue Coat of Plates
Download
Filename: bluecop1.jpg
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Downloaded: 54 Time(s)
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-Erik
Winter Tree Crafts
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OK, now that's awesome. Stainless, and blue, that would be sweet!
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I got to talk to and see some of Erics work ( Wintertree ) at CW. He does nice work. I think you'll be happy.
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totally. just get the rounded teardrop dags at the bottom. not that you have to, i just think it would look neat. haahha so excited to see others get armour.
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Cool.
For whatever its worth, I don't think there's much evidence for coat of plates being made with leather. I think that's a modern thing. So if you wanted blue, but have any trouble finding someone to make it in blue leather, you could always go for another material (which might even be cheaper).
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that is true Das Bill. but leather might hold Sir Edward up a little longer for what he is wanting it for. wouldn't be cooler though as leather doesn't breath as well as linen canvas material. but it does look nice hahah
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Yeah, linen canvas would be great, but I'm OK with leather in this case. I don't mind fudging things a little.
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I know that we use leather for the foundation material of our C.O.P`s. I`m not sure there is proof either way as to what was origionally used, as the remains of the finds at Visby are so deteriorated. ( I would be interested in finding out myself) Most of us chose to cover the leather with coloured velvet to give the desired effect.
You may find this to be a suitable option.
G
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well Sir Edward, what did you decide?
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I've been waiting to see what the roof repairs are going to cost on my house. Looks like it's not as bad as I feared. I may go ahead and have Wintertree do it in blue and stainless.
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thats gonna be awesome. i am totally jelous. now I may have to make one for me hahaha (ahhhhhh wait i dont have a 14thc kit yet! NOOOOOOOOOOO heheh)
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Man...I'm envious, but in a good way, Sir Edward. Your CoP is gonna RAWK.
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Sir Edward, did you get your COP?
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Yes, where are the pics?
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No, I haven't ordered it yet. Roof repairs, truck maintenance, and a wedding to plan. It's putting the armor plans on hold a bit.
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Damn all those extraneous attention-hogging issues...!!! lol
Except for the wedding...Lady Kat's more than worth the effort, but roof repairs? Posh, what's a little rain and outside environment? Truck? What's that? lol
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who does Kat think she is? hahahaha jkjk heheheh
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*runs ducking for cover*
You're on your own, Sir Wolf! lol
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hey u never posted pictures of your new arms and legs from MT
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Hey, Sir Edward, I remember waaay back in this tread you were talking about having trouable getting the sabatons right in your chauses. Here's a link that might help.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=126899 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=126899)
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*bump resurrection*
So what pray tell has become of this kit? :)
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Nothing yet. I still need to get the riveted mail, and make the surcoat, and adjust the legs to avoid the... uhm.. pinching hazard in the middle. :) I also need to think about a coat of plates, but that can come later.
The biggest roadblock is the mail. What I want is the riveted titanium from icefalcon. But I have a wedding to pay for this year, so I've been putting it off. I might be able to work around this, but the problem is that I was planning on pointing the arms and spaulders to the mail, which won't work with my aluminum.
So because of budget reasons I haven't worked on it in a while.
But in terms of the surcoat... hmm... maybe I can have Marie take a look at that. :)
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Oh btw, speaking of surcoat I'm picking up my other new one on Tuesday. This one I had made with the extra linen material and wanted it for a more daily wear or fighting as I want to get into that more in armor. The cool part is the seamstress asked me if I wanted my accolades embroidered. I asked how much more that would be and she estimated the time and said $90.00 for both devices. So the entire surcoat is going to cost me $130 and I won’t have to ruin it by trying to stencil the accolades on with fabric paint! :)
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Oh btw, speaking of surcoat I'm picking up my other new one on Tuesday. This one I had made with the extra linen material and wanted it for a more daily wear or fighting as I want to get into that more in armor. The cool part is the seamstress asked me if I wanted my accolades embroidered. I asked how much more that would be and she estimated the time and said $90.00 for both devices. So the entire surcoat is going to cost me $130 and I won’t have to ruin it by trying to stencil the accolades on with fabric paint! :)
Awesome! That's really cool.
Well, I need to think on this mail thing more. The titanium would be awesome. But steel would be much cheaper. And I could still get stainless to avoid rust... I would just have the full weight.
Example 1 (GDFB): http://cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=AB3084 (http://cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=AB3084)
(chainmail)
Example 2: (Ice Falcon): http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-chainmail-haubergeon-large-ff808181179c9a5701179dac4e6e3621-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/stainless-chainmail-haubergeon-large-ff808181179c9a5701179dac4e6e3621-p.html)
EDIT: ... dang it, now you have me thinking about this again. And wondering if I can get it together in 2 weeks for the knighting... lol... Stainless is affordable.
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muhahahah yes yes it is.
why can't you point the alum spaulders? need help?
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Wow the Icefalcon is cheaper but you don't get your discount with icefalcon. Tough decision there! :-\
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why can't you point the alum spaulders? need help?
I have heavy steel spaulders for this kit. The aluminum mail won't support the weight of things hanging off of it.
Anyway, I made my decision. I'll forgo the titanium. The GDFB stuff has more appropriate sizing for me anyway, and the stainless isn't oppressively heavy. I should have it next week! :)
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awwwwwwwwssommmmmmmmmeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cant wait to see it!!!!!!!! sweet!!!!!!!!
now, onto ordering the COP. come on..... Kat won't know! just wear your surcoat over it, she'll never even read these msgs hehhehe. how does she know you don't already have one hehehe
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*bump resurrection*
So what pray tell has become of this kit? :)
EDIT: ... dang it, now you have me thinking about this again. And wondering if I can get it together in 2 weeks for the knighting... lol... Stainless is affordable.
Anyway, I made my decision. I'll forgo the titanium. The GDFB stuff has more appropriate sizing for me anyway, and the stainless isn't oppressively heavy. I should have it next week! :)
Cool!
*OMG Sir Wolf I’m starting to understand why you do what you do! … It is SOOO much fun! Mmuuhaahahaha!* ;D
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I'm still trying to get the hang of these various message boards...don't know which one to use. I'm new and hopefully my coat of arms will be listed soon...Also wanted to mention that I finally finished the helmet, shield, surcoat and pendant of Sir William Marshal...when I get a chance, I'll take a picture and post it.
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do it man! we've been wondering where you where this past week
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*OMG Sir Wolf I’m starting to understand why you do what you do! … It is SOOO much fun! Mmuuhaahahaha!* ;D
Isn't it? Sir Wolf and I have been very good at spending each other's money over the years this way... lol. :)
Updates: Supposedly I'll get the riveted mail by wednesday. I also handed off some fabric to Marie, toward making the jupon/surcoat for this. But I'll probably still make a simpler one to use in the meantime before she makes it.
I'm still not sure what I'm going to do about the helmet. I'll probably play with that MRL bascinet/aventail thing I have and see if I can get it to cooperate with my glasses a little better. But I'm also tempted to look into one of the klappvisors from GDFB. So we'll see. I'll have to decide on some gauntlets at some point too.
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*OMG Sir Wolf I’m starting to understand why you do what you do! … It is SOOO much fun! Mmuuhaahahaha!* ;D
Isn't it? Sir Wolf and I have been very good at spending each other's money over the years this way... lol. :)
Updates: Supposedly I'll get the riveted mail by wednesday. I also handed off some fabric to Marie, toward making the jupon/surcoat for this. But I'll probably still make a simpler one to use in the meantime before she makes it.
I'm still not sure what I'm going to do about the helmet. I'll probably play with that MRL bascinet/aventail thing I have and see if I can get it to cooperate with my glasses a little better. But I'm also tempted to look into one of the klappvisors from GDFB. So we'll see. I'll have to decide on some gauntlets at some point too.
boy have we!!!
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I think I'm going to want to go with hourglass gauntlets for this kit, after some thought. I see armstreet is selling some on ebay. These look pretty cool. Thoughts?
(sca, gauntlets)
http://cgi.ebay.com/FINGER-GAUNTLETS-HOURGLASSES-GLOVES-MEDIEVAL-ARMOR-SCA-/230590426465?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b042ad61 (http://cgi.ebay.com/FINGER-GAUNTLETS-HOURGLASSES-GLOVES-MEDIEVAL-ARMOR-SCA-/230590426465?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b042ad61)
However they look cheaper on the website:
http://armstreet.com/store/armor/finger-gauntlets-hourglasses-gloves-medieval-armor-sca (http://armstreet.com/store/armor/finger-gauntlets-hourglasses-gloves-medieval-armor-sca)
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They look good however I must caution you about Armstreet products which Sir Andrew can verify! Although they will be solidly constructed and look good there will be some noticeable unfinished aspects that you'll have to take care of. Chief among them will be some seriously deadly burrs. You may find the strapping substandard as well, at least Sir Andrew was not satisfied with his on the armor he purchased from them. Oh and there will be a little bit of a delay in getting them because they are in the Ukraine and you'll pay an outrageous price for the shipping. Otherwise they are a fantastic company that have some really ingenious methods of making armor but I shop them with a slightly jaundiced eye. ;)
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It's a shame ArmorAndCastings isn't taking armor orders for a while. They had some nice offerings at good prices, based on the pictures and description at least.
I don't normally recommend an overseas armorer, due to the differences in primary languages and confusing terms in armoring and measurements, but with gauntlets, you're probably just providing a tracing of your hand and wrist circumference. If I order from someone overseas (and not in Europe), it would definitely be Marek. Here's his gauntlet selection:
http://www.armorymarek.com/gauntlets
G11, G14, G16 and G31 are hourglass style gauntlets, but you could easily spend 10 or 15 minutes drooling over the whole page. G24 is one of my favorites.
He doesn't list prices on the site but they are reasonable in comparison to other handmade offerings that are made specifically to your measurements (i.e., not GDFB). I have a price list from him that is about a year old that I can send you, or you could contact him and he'll send you the current prices for everything on his site. He doesn't work in stainless, and when I asked about the type of steel (mild, spring, other) his response was "1.5mm iron" - which I gather to be mild steel, especially based on the price. He usually takes a few days to respond, but has always replied the couple times I asked questions. If I can sell my other car, I will be getting some drooly bits from him. :)
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Well, I think I'll put the gaunts off a little longer. I don't want to pick up another pair of gaunts hastily, since at $350-$600 a pop, it gets expensive if you get into the "ooh, I like those better" thing after you make a purchase. I do have a pair of really crappy hourglass gaunts I can use in the meantime.
The haubergeon should be here today. And I spent the evening last night making a really simple jupon/surcoat to wear over it (though it probably needs some more adjusting to fit right).
Progress. :)
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OK, here's the scoop. I still have a lot of work to do, but I managed to put things on tonight. Wow, it's a lot of work to do by yourself, with all the straps and points being hard to reach. :) (as an aside, it's also interesting editing photos and posting this message while still wearing it all!)
I didn't bother with boots. I was just spending the time getting things on, adding new holes in the straps, testing out pointing locations, attaching the besegews, etc.
I still need to taper the sleeves, add splits at the bottom, etc. The surcoat is thrown together really quickly and fits a little funny. I also didn't have it on straight. Hard to do when you put it on AFTER the arms and spaulders.
The lighting sucked, so forgive the graininess. I had to brighten these considerably.
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2115.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2115b.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2116.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2116b.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2117.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2117b.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2118.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2118b.jpg)
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Hey that is looking really great! You are a lot closer to being done than not done IMO! :)
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LOVE the maille!!!!!!
BTW, does a COPs get as hot as a cuirass? Because I've been often foregoing the cuirass so that I don't sweat to death.
JW?
BTW, thanks for a link to a COP place that looks nice and isn't above $1000!
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wow awesome, and that is just that i can actually see carpet :P hahaha what a huge bare spot on the floor! hehehe jkjkjkj
k
that kit rocks dude. do not split the bottom. most effigies show a straight hem line on mail in the 14thc. wow it just looks great dude.
about the surcoat, are you gonna have it waft in at the waist? this is done by having from the waist to teh armpits open and then they are tied together so it is tight against teh wearer. other wise you can't get the bloody thing on over the armour hehehe.
also, don't forget to wear your belt lower around the hips. its all the rage in 14thc
what about greaves? gotta have those. cased greaves are all the rage in mid to late 14th.
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(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2118b.jpg)
in this picture. what is with the white diamond in the middle of your chest/belly under the mail? heheheh snicker ;)
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wow awesome, and that is just that i can actually see carpet :P hahaha what a huge bare spot on the floor! hehehe jkjkjkj
k
that kit rocks dude. do not split the bottom. most effigies show a straight hem line on mail in the 14thc. wow it just looks great dude.
about the surcoat, are you gonna have it waft in at the waist? this is done by having from the waist to teh armpits open and then they are tied together so it is tight against teh wearer. other wise you can't get the bloody thing on over the armour hehehe.
also, don't forget to wear your belt lower around the hips. its all the rage in 14thc
what about greaves? gotta have those. cased greaves are all the rage in mid to late 14th.
Greaves will come later. I'll have to think on that one.
Yeah, this is just a temporary surcoat until Marie makes the good one. I'm going to make some more adjustments to it, but it's not going to be great, since I'm just not going to put the time into it.
As for the splits, they didn't add any expansion or anything, so right now it's hard to sit down with the mail pulling taught. Ideally I'd need to add some expansion areas. Hopefulyl someday KoA will get me those loose rings I ordered. Maybe the material I'll remove to taper the sleeves could be re-added at the bottom. I hope.
I'm already starting to do damage to the points on the pourpoint, so I'm going to look into reinforcing it too.
in this picture. what is with the white diamond in the middle of your chest/belly under the mail? heheheh snicker ;)
That would be the pourpoint not closing over the gut. Thanks for noticing, dude. :)
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Wow, Ed, that looks excellent! Are you going 15th or 14th century for harnisfechten in class tomorrow? :)
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Lookin good Sir Edward...I'd split the haubergeon just for comfort's sake...besides, if you ever got to get up on a horse, not having the split will make the mail ride up over your hips.
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Wow, Ed, that looks excellent! Are you going 15th or 14th century for harnisfechten in class tomorrow? :)
Probably 15th since I'm still working out the bugs from the 14th. Though I must say, this new kit is a lot lighter and more well distributed.
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ya u need some triangles in the front and back. talk to james barker about what he did. they maybe on the side, i cant remember.
hey, u want me to bring some tools next saturday to work on some of the bugs? i'll try to bring some thick leather as well to put on teh inside of the arming coat to help distribute the pull on the point holes.
hehehe nice diamond ;) hahahahhaha sorry ehhehe
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While a COP would certainly be good, I personally think it would look great with a simple globose breastplate. Nothing fancy, just a single formed piece of steel with no rivets or articulations, like this one:
(http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/_content/thearmory/pages/europeanarmor/large/128.jpg)
http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/_content/thearmory/pages/europeanarmor/large/128.jpg
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Speaking of breastplates, I've always been very fond of the cuir boulli breastplate shown on the attached illustration from the Osprey book Italian Medieval Armies 1300-1500. The book labels him as a Central Italian Horseman of the early 14th century. I don't know what sources they used, but I've always thought it looked great. I don't like most modern made leather armour because I think it tends to look very modern and far more fantasy than historical, but I've often thought about attempting to make a leather breastplate like this. I think it would look really good with your kit, particularly if you decided to also do leather greaves that matched.
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While a COP would certainly be good, I personally think it would look great with a simple globose breastplate. Nothing fancy, just a single formed piece of steel with no rivets or articulations, like this one:
I agree wholeheartedly. I don't have any pictures of my new globose breastplate in action (replacing my COP), but I do have a photo fresh out of the box. It's made by an armourer well know to this community who has very low pricing, high quality and excellent customer relationships.
Hint: Rhymes with mercy nary sailor (http://www.merctailor.com/index.php).
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i'll try to bring some thick leather as well to put on teh inside of the arming coat to help distribute the pull on the point holes.
That's how my Revival Clothing arming cotte is done. In fact, Ed, I just helped David Rowe do this to his new pourpoint (not because of damage, but because he needed higher ones in order for his legs to sit right). It's really easy to do.
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I don't have any pictures of my new globose breastplate in action (replacing my COP), but I do have a photo fresh out of the box. It's made by an armourer well know to this community who has very low pricing, high quality and excellent customer relationships.
Hint: Rhymes with mercy nary sailor (http://www.merctailor.com/index.php).
I love that you guys have the besagews. Not a lot of people do that for 14th century kits, and I think that's a shame. They look great. :)
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Yeah, I really like the look of some of that ornate leather as well. However I'll probably go with the breastplate at some point, I just need to pick who to get it from, etc. And of course solve the gauntlet issue as well. And greaves.
i'll try to bring some thick leather as well to put on teh inside of the arming coat to help distribute the pull on the point holes.
That's how my Revival Clothing arming cotte is done. In fact, Ed, I just helped David Rowe do this to his new pourpoint (not because of damage, but because he needed higher ones in order for his legs to sit right). It's really easy to do.
Yeah, I've done some attachment of thin leather on my arming cotte to add new points for my 15th C kit, but they're not really that strong either. I really want to see what everyone is doing with thicker leather.
ya u need some triangles in the front and back. talk to james barker about what he did. they maybe on the side, i cant remember.
I added triangular sections into the sides on my aluminum set. That's probably the best place to add them. But of course, I still don't have the loose rings and rivets from KOA yet, just the riveting tool. So I don't know how I want to handle this. I could always put splits on the sides of the armor to accommodate sitting and moving a little better, and insert material there later when I get the rings. Dunno.
hey, u want me to bring some tools next saturday to work on some of the bugs? i'll try to bring some thick leather as well to put on teh inside of the arming coat to help distribute the pull on the point holes.
Yep, bring what you've got. I still have some leather left over from working on my chausses, but I'm not sure how it compares to what you have. We'll play around with it.
hehehe nice diamond ;) hahahahhaha sorry ehhehe
I see how it is... you lose weight, and then make fun of everyone else. :)
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Oh, I forgot to report on my impression of the GDFB mail. At about 18 pounds, it's heavier than my aluminum, but not by a lot. The weight distributes well and is pretty comfortable.
It's much more difficult to put on than I'm used to, due to a combination of the sizing and the rivets catching on fabric, etc. The flat rings make the mail slightly less flexible and compressible than my aluminum set, so it tends to get really rigid and bind up on itself when trying to put it on, whereas my aluminum just slides itself into place with just gravity.
In terms of the sizing aspect, on the website they say 50" chest, and on the phone they said 48". The rule of thumb is to leave at least 4" over your actual measurement, but this technically leaves me more like 7" (I measure about 41"). Even so, it has less give than my aluminum set which is also tailored for a close fit.
It's stainless, but has a black finish. The black is flaking off all over my floor, so I'm assuming it'll wear down and be less black over time.
They didn't taper the sleeves, or have a widened base, so these are things I need to work on myself. At some point... someday when the loose links/rivets actually ship to me. In the meantime I can still taper the sleeves and just use butt-links to close the seam.
Even with the plate components and steel mail, I think this is my lightest harness so far.
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nice :)
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What's amazing is how heavy it all gets when you add on this or that...anyone try running in their harness yet?
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What's amazing is how heavy it all gets when you add on this or that...anyone try running in their harness yet?
I've gotten up to a light jog in my kits. It's doable, I just don't like how a lot of it flops around. If I were really going to war with it, I think the mail would have to be tied down in a lot more places. And I'd just have to accept that the tassets on my plate armor would just be bouncing all over the place.
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well really if you were a man at arms on foot you really wouldnt be wearing tassets. i think they are manly for horseback.
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Agreed on the need for more security w/regard to the mail...but then, I imagine that they would've been somewhat tailored to fit a specific person, so they probably did not experience what we do now with our 'few sizes fits all' style that we're accustomed to seeing.
Last season I tried lacing down some of the more floppier areas but they came undone toward the end of the first day.
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sometimes i wonder how much mail was actually tied more like in the move kingdom of heaven. the artists may have just left it off the paintings etc so we don't think about the need. there's only so much tailoring that can be done with mail that makes it immobile or unable to put on one would think.
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I think you may be correct Sir Wolf because I’ve added some hidden leather laces on the inside of my arms to keep the sleeves at the best length for me, which all allows some extra mobility to my upper arms in general without the maille binding me. ;)
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Sir Brian, I'm going to need to see that...I had mine outside of the mail and that did not help.
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Nothing really to it Sir William! You wear the maille and pull the sleeve inside out to the location of where you want it secured, then hand your lovely assistant some leather lacing and instruct her to lace within every other ring and then tie it into a square knot. Leave enough length so you can make a loose loop knot to keep the lacing in the same location when you remove the maille.
The best part is when it is secured the maille hangs over the lacing, obscuring it even more. ;)
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sometimes i wonder how much mail was actually tied more like in the move kingdom of heaven. the artists may have just left it off the paintings etc so we don't think about the need. there's only so much tailoring that can be done with mail that makes it immobile or unable to put on one would think.
Yep, that's my theory. They just didn't bother to draw it, but there was probably a lot of lacing.
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Nothing really to it Sir William! You wear the maille and pull the sleeve inside out to the location of where you want it secured, then hand your lovely assistant some leather lacing and instruct her to lace within every other ring and then tie it into a square knot. Leave enough length so you can make a loose loop knot to keep the lacing in the same location when you remove the maille.
The best part is when it is secured the maille hangs over the lacing, obscuring it even more. ;)
You make it sound very simple...I assure you, I shall have problems. LOL
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and this is why it is good to armour up with a good page! or other knights around you.
ugg what a pain in the butt it was at the "Steed" last year at MDRF. both putting it on and taking it off. my princess didn't know what to do nor was strong enough to help.. ehehehe
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While a COP would certainly be good, I personally think it would look great with a simple globose breastplate. Nothing fancy, just a single formed piece of steel with no rivets or articulations, like this one:
(img)
http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/_content/thearmory/pages/europeanarmor/large/128.jpg
That looks familiar. :D
It's stainless, but has a black finish. The black is flaking off all over my floor, so I'm assuming it'll wear down and be less black over time.
Mine is doing the same, and oily while doing it, too. I've read about throwing it inside a few pillow cases and putting it in the dryer, but I think I'll take the safe route and get some sand, throw the mail and sand in a bucket, secure the lid on the bucket and roll it around for a while.
I saw a *really* nice setup drawn up many years back. It was a scale "skateboard" half-pipe that had a cutout directly down the middle all the way through, and a barrel with a ridge all the way around it that fit into that cutout (same concept as a train track). It was maybe 5' long and 4' high, as a best guess, ideal height would probably depend on the weight of the mail and how high one can lift it easily.
You would put the mail and sand in the barrel, secure the top, then lift it up the halfpipe and place it in the notch, then push it over the edge. It would roll down the halfpipe and up the other side, and would keep doing so for 4-6 times, so that you didn't have to constantly push it around.
It was designed to remove rust, and is based on (what I understand to be) period references to barrels of sand and other abrasives that were used to clean and polish the mail. A better alternative is a squire of course, but lacking that, it's a cool idea. Never did see one actually constructed, though the concept seems sound.
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I am gonna need a squire to put on my armor, thank god I have friends who like to come with me to ren faires, they can be my squires. Can only imagine how difficult it is to put on plate by yourself.
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if you want a cheap globose breastplate, Cet from Rough from the hammer is your man. 80$ in stainless or 65$ in mild steel. you will need to strap it yourself and if you want any sorta finish you will have to do that as well. but if you are covering it with a surcoat you wouldn't need to. http://www.roughfromthehammer.com/parts.html
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OK, here's the most immediate things I need to work on:
1. Gauntlets. I forgot about these gorgeous blue wisby gauntlets (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=122741&highlight=). I'm looking at those, or hourglass gaunts from maybe Best Armor. Thoughts?
2. Mail adjustments. I can taper the sleeves later, as it's not a huge hindrance. But the lack of expansion at the bottom really gets in the way when it pulls tight. It's hard to sit down in it. Since KOA has my loose rings and rivets on horrendously-long back-order, what I think I might do is go ahead and split the sides, and add the expansion mail with crappy butt-links for the time being. It's a temporary fix, and the links will look out of place in both color and shape, but it'll be on the sides and mostly under the surcoat anyway. I have some linked sections of galvanized butt links already, so the work would go quickly. I hope this doesn't offend anyone's sensibilities too badly. :)
Of course, later I'll look into the greaves, breastplate, and a new helm as well.
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protest protest hahahha jkjk. kewlness
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Since KOA has my loose rings and rivets on horrendously-long back-order, what I think I might do is go ahead and split the sides, and add the expansion mail with crappy butt-links for the time being. It's a temporary fix, and the links will look out of place in both color and shape, but it'll be on the sides and mostly under the surcoat anyway. I have some linked sections of galvanized butt links already, so the work would go quickly.
Expansions added. Wow, suddenly the armor is also a lot easier to get in and out of too. Nice.
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add a diamond in between the shoulder blades and maybe one over the breast bone. it helped james barker.
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After listening to the advice and recommendations from my instructors at SIGMA along with deep considerations. I am now all for a 14th Century Harness or Kit.
I will be using Sir Wolf's recommendations on the Merc Tailor kit prototype and I will be posting more prototypes for full harnesses or kits.
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Sir Joshua, in all seriousness, make a list of all the kits you've been ogling- unless I miss my guess, you will acquire them all in time. Choose the one you want the baddest and make that your first kit...it is a process that we all have or are going through...and as I'd said before, that's half the fun right there!
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I wish I could even consider dropping a large sum of money for a good steel kit, but unfortunately at this time I am going to have to stick to my lighter stainless steel variety.
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I wish I could even consider dropping a large sum of money for a good steel kit, but unfortunately at this time I am going to have to stick to my lighter stainless steel variety.
I really do think the best way to go about this for most people is to slowly build the kit up, little by little. It's hard to drop a lot of cash all at once. The advantage to doing it all at once of course is that it's easier to make everything match. But really, I find that a lot of the time you have to buy things from different places to get it all to fit better anyway.
And besides, the cost is always an issue.
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Absolutely!
Here is a picture of Sir Edward and me @ 2007 MDRF when I wore armor for the first time compared to this past Sunday. Four years doesn't seem so long but there was a lot of changes since that first day. :)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/mdrf07_073b.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/b2120b.jpg)
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One day I will get there. I do have this Breastplate and backpiece that was donated to me by Sir Edward that will be a great starter piece for me. First thing First i need to get it cleaned up. I think that Set may have to wait another season before it makes its first apearance.
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Man, I love going back and looking at those pics from a few years ago. It's really cool to see how a kit evolves! Especially when the end result is as photogenic as Sir Brian's is. ;)
Oh, and cool.. that second photo has me in the kit that this thread is for... so we're back on topic too. :)
EDIT: Yeah, my kit has come a long way since those "full moon" days too... :)
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/faire/me-werewolf.jpg)
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I think your 14th C. kit is really excellent! I can't wait to see it with your new surcoat and don't take this the wrong way but I like your legs! ;) (except the side plates on the knee cops, I never cared for them when I had them) :-\
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I wish I could even consider dropping a large sum of money for a good steel kit, but unfortunately at this time I am going to have to stick to my lighter stainless steel variety.
I can attest to that...I've spent the last five years cobbling together my kit...and I don't have anything left from the original set, except a butted steel coif that I still use from time to time. For me, that was part of the fun of it...don't get me wrong, I felt pangs of envy every time I saw someone else post up about a new bit of armor or sword but as long as you work within your means, you'll do just fine.
At least that's what I tell myself, daily. ;)
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i feel like the shoemaker. always making kit ideas for others but never myself hehehe
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I didnt know you do WWII Sir Wolf, I used to do 1st SAS Brit. years ago.
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do u know scott cozad, don burkett, rob slater, bob davis and those guys?
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Sir Wolf,
I do know Don Burkett, and Rob Slater, as well as Ray Partenheimer (Hans), I have also meet other WWII Reenactors that enjoy coming to the Ren Faire as well, just don't remember names.
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Well, I had a chance to actually fight in this kit last night. It performed pretty well, but it's clear I need to get that torso armor over the mail. Bill and I talked about the idea of using the GDFB simple breastplate, and take the plackart off, and use it like a cheap globose breastplate. So I have one on order now from KOA. I'm going to give that a shot.
I canceled that order for the GDFB "pot helm" I mentioned in another thread. I'm looking back through this thread at some of the klappvisor and round-faced bascinet options out there. The one from Anshelm we mentioned earlier is gorgeous, but we misread the page. It would be something like $900 for that visor, aventail, etc... but not the helm itself! That's another $500-$2000!
So I'm still looking.
This one is listed as "out of stock", but is still an option, and comes with padding and strapping, just no aventail: http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=68 (http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=68)
I figured I'd post a few photos that I'm using as inspiration while putting this kit together, as a reminder:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/3796182715/
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/3796182715_fc06740cb2.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/3796182715/)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/samurai_/MalatestaArmor.jpg)
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This is expensive, but probably also unlined. It looks pretty cool though.
http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=611 (http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=611)
(http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/images/armour_images/H-271.jpg)
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those are two kits to really aspire to! let me know if u need help
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Well, I had a chance to actually fight in this kit last night. It performed pretty well, but it's clear I need to get that torso armor over the mail. Bill and I talked about the idea of using the GDFB simple breastplate, and take the plackart off, and use it like a cheap globose breastplate. So I have one on order now from KOA. I'm going to give that a shot.
hey, ask someone (sword chick?) who has one to look and make sure there are no weld marks on the inside!!! sometimes people use rivets but also spot weld them together in a few places to extra hold. it will be no problem for us to get the 2 apart when you come up hehehe or i can make it down again :)
can i have the plackart? ehhehe for pattern making anyways. hehehe
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This one is listed as "out of stock", but is still an option, and comes with padding and strapping, just no aventail: http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=68 (http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=68)
Last I heard, ArmorAndCastings isn't taking any armor orders due to restructuring of their armory. They had a few things I wanted (helm and gauntlets) but stopped selling them months ago. I'm not sure if they are currently taking orders, but if everything on the site still says "out of stock", they aren't. :/
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/samurai_/MalatestaArmor.jpg)
For some reason, I want to say that his name is Edward as well .. Edward Haille, maybe? The picture is very familiar, and I have it saved in my armor folder too. I really like that kit.
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looks mostly of merc tailor except the helmet. i really think a good surcoat will make or break a kit
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Well, I had a chance to actually fight in this kit last night. It performed pretty well, but it's clear I need to get that torso armor over the mail. Bill and I talked about the idea of using the GDFB simple breastplate, and take the plackart off, and use it like a cheap globose breastplate. So I have one on order now from KOA. I'm going to give that a shot.
hey, ask someone (sword chick?) who has one to look and make sure there are no weld marks on the inside!!! sometimes people use rivets but also spot weld them together in a few places to extra hold. it will be no problem for us to get the 2 apart when you come up hehehe or i can make it down again :)
can i have the plackart? ehhehe for pattern making anyways. hehehe
One of the folks in our class already took the plackart off of theirs, and that's what gave us the idea. Underneath it, it's not that far off from a globose breastplate. It just leaves a rivet hole in the middle, and the bottom edge looks a little unfinished.
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we could put rivets back into it.
let me know when it is delivered and i will try to make it down. i'm sure dianna will love to see her mom that weekend etc hehe
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This is expensive, but probably also unlined. It looks pretty cool though.
http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=611 (http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=611)
(http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/images/armour_images/H-271.jpg)
Expensive but very cool looking! I really like that helm! :)
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it is! but i worry it is too early like the sugarloaf for his kit. source: http://home.scarlet.be/~klauwaer/helm/ http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm
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Sir Edward can always claim the helm is a family heirloom!
Seriously though, possessing archaic items are far more plausible than possessing futuristic items that decades or even centuries before the timeline of your kit. :-\
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Sir Edward can always claim the helm is a family heirloom!
Seriously though, possessing archaic items are far more plausible than possessing futuristic items that decades or even centuries before the timeline of your kit. :-\
Indeed, especially amongst the poorer knights who can't afford to update their armor every decade or two.
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but if u can afford a harness you can afford an upgrade. ;)
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hey, ask someone (sword chick?) who has one to look and make sure there are no weld marks on the inside!!! sometimes people use rivets but also spot weld them together in a few places to extra hold. it will be no problem for us to get the 2 apart when you come up hehehe or i can make it down again :)
Tim Hall in our group already did this, which is what gave us all the inspiration. It looks really good (minus the hole in the front). I was suggesting that Pamela do this as well, but cover it in fabric to cover the hole.
Tim's the one in green.
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hey perfect. :) we could always through in a rivet to fill the hole.
i wonder if pamela would want to take her's apart, cover the breastplate and then reattach the plackart? it would look smashing i think
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hey perfect. :) we could always through in a rivet to fill the hole.
i wonder if pamela would want to take her's apart, cover the breastplate and then reattach the plackart? it would look smashing i think
In theory it would, but as it is, the breastplate is pretty gigantic on her. This is why I was suggesting to her to go the route Tim chose and remove the plackart entirely.
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it is! but i worry it is too early like the sugarloaf for his kit. source: http://home.scarlet.be/~klauwaer/helm/ http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm
True, but the helm looks mostly like a bascinet, just with the more sugarloaf-like faceplate. It's almost a transitional design incorporating elements of a bascinet and a sugarloaf. So, it might not be too bad. But, as we said, it's expensive. No easy solution for me!
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I was just looking at this guy's site:
http://jollyknight.com.ua/
He has some pretty reasonable prices for some really nice 14th century helmets, many of which you could fight in.
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I was just looking at this guy's site:
http://jollyknight.com.ua/
He has some pretty reasonable prices for some really nice 14th century helmets, many of which you could fight in.
Those do look like some good options. Very cool.
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Heeyyyy, he makes some really good looking helms!
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it is! but i worry it is too early like the sugarloaf for his kit. source: http://home.scarlet.be/~klauwaer/helm/ http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm
One of the charts shows great helms still being in use throughout the 14th C.
(http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All%20Head%202.jpg)
According to the chart, the bascinets start to appear in the 1310s, but never completely edge out the great helms until the end of the century. That's cool to know. Maybe I just need more of a round-top great helm if I don't settle on a bascinet.
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That's pretty cool...does he list a source(s) for that info?
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Well since you already have a great helm you could still look for a bascinet with a visor to allow you that extra versatility! :)
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You're absolutely right...that's next on the list, well, either that or a customized Barbuta that I saw on jolly something or other. Actually, I wouldn't mind a helm like yours, but instead of the usual visor, I'd like it to be a rough approximation of my face. That'd cost an arm and leg though probably.
One day!
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That's pretty cool...does he list a source(s) for that info?
It's all from historical effigies. I think he just looked at them and counted up how many were equipped with what.
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it is! but i worry it is too early like the sugarloaf for his kit. source: http://home.scarlet.be/~klauwaer/helm/ http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm
Interesting link, now that gives me an idea of what I should do. I actually am considering early 14th century like the rest of you guys.
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At this point, I believe we all will become a 14th Century Style Chivalric Order (Come to think of it)!
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At this point, I believe we all will become a 14th Century Style Chivalric Order (Come to think of it)!
Heh, what's amusing about that is that in the SCA, from what I understand there's a lot of folks who consider the 14th to be the "one true century". I can understand why. There's not only the huge transition of armor, but also an explosion of color and heraldry and pageantry. It sort of visually encompasses much of what has drawn us to the period.
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Heh, what's amusing about that is that in the SCA, from what I understand there's a lot of folks who consider the 14th to be the "one true century". I can understand why. There's not only the huge transition of armor, but also an explosion of color and heraldry and pageantry. It sort of visually encompasses much of what has drawn us to the period.
My thoughts exactly Sir Edward!
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ya it recently has become a huge draw for the SCA in Atlantia. James Barker is a leader in part of this with all of his awesome kits and shoes.
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I've always been drawn to the bascinet with houndskull visor. I don't know why, maybe because it just looks MEAN.
I believe the internet and forums such as this have had a profound impact on the advancement of SCA armours from all periods. In the old days (my first armour photographs were taken with a Polaroid Instamatic camera) I was inspired by books, movies, people I met at SCA events and the local Ren Fair. This was a rather limited pool for period correct historical inspiration and good information was slow to be disseminated. With the advent of the internet and forums for people with specific interests, the trickle of good information has turned into a torrent of knowledge. The younger members here can be very thankful that you didn't have to wait weeks for a book to arrive via inter-library loan. ;)
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That's pretty cool...does he list a source(s) for that info?
It's all from historical effigies. I think he just looked at them and counted up how many were equipped with what.
It's from Doug Strong, he lists his sources at the bottom of his main site. His info gathered for that page is VERY impressive. If I remember right, he also runs EffigiesAndBrasses.com?
I've always been drawn to the bascinet with houndskull visor. I don't know why, maybe because it just looks MEAN.
I believe the internet and forums such as this have had a profound impact on the advancement of SCA armours from all periods. In the old days (my first armour photographs were taken with a Polaroid Instamatic camera) I was inspired by books, movies, people I met at SCA events and the local Ren Fair. This was a rather limited pool for period correct historical inspiration and good information was slow to be disseminated. With the advent of the internet and forums for people with specific interests, the trickle of good information has turned into a torrent of knowledge. The younger members here can be very thankful that you didn't have to wait weeks for a book to arrive via inter-library loan. ;)
I've been around long enough to remember that. And the books I could get were the Eyewitness books, which had a scant 4-6 pages of very generic info, and a few basic pictures. Still, enough to make a high schooler aspire to have his own armor some day. Only slightly ahead of that was attempting to scour the internet for low resolution pictures or scans of armor at a *blazing* 14.4 kbps - all while hoping no one else in the house picks up the phone.
This is a great time for armor enthusiasts!
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This is a great time for armor enthusiasts!
Hear, hear!
It's funny, I wasn't all that excited about armor when I was younger. I was interested, but it was the swords that really captured my enthusiasm. But all of that turned around at the end of the 90's. Decent sources of armor were starting to appear, but not a lot. The riveted mail being cheap (relatively) and easily available is a prime example. Back then, you needed to make mail yourself or pay someone to do it, and it would generally be butted galvanized steel. The fact that titanium riveted mail is available now blows my mind.
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great time for armor enthusiasts!
blows my mind.
keep your helmet on. less to clean up
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Well, my GDFB breastplate and stainless riveted mail coif just got here.
I think in addition to removing the plackart and filling the holes with rivets, I may try to bend it a little too. It's still quite a bit wider than I am down at the base, and I think the shape of at the shoulder could be adjusted a little too. Not bad as a cheap solution.
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AWESOME!!! can't wait to play!! hehehe
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Sweet! We'll give you a moment before pestering you for pictures...
...
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has it been a moment yet? :D
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yes yes pictures or we dont believe you and u have to buy each of us a kit hehe
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It's still quite a bit wider than I am down at the base
Or ... you could attend more feasts. I think both ideas would work.
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No! Wrong idea! :) I'm trying to lose weight. Not gain it. :)
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yes yes pictures or we dont believe you and u have to buy each of us a kit hehe
I took the plackart off, and stuck a small rivet in the center hole. The breastplate will need a little polishing or something to erase the visible edge from where the plackart was. It's not too bad though.
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2171.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/weapons/b2171b.jpg)
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What an excellent and cost effective solution for a 14th century breastplate! Thank you for sharing the photograph.
Couldn't you strap the plackart over a brigandine for an awesome 15th century kit?
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shhh thats MY placart! hehehehe
looks awesome dude
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try some w240 and the green scotch rite pads see if that does it.
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What an excellent and cost effective solution for a 14th century breastplate! Thank you for sharing the photograph.
Yeah, when Tim in our group did it, I felt like hitting myself in the head for not thinking of it before. It was such a simple way to take a cheap breastplate that didn't fit most people very well and suddenly make it much better.
Couldn't you strap the plackart over a brigandine for an awesome 15th century kit?
I had been thinking about the same thing. :)
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does that globose now have a back strap? ie one that goes behind the lower back? or does it just have the X shoulder straps?
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It's still the X-strap across the back.
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lets add a lower waist strap. hold it to you :) and more period hehehe.
how much 2 big is the breatplate over the mail? is it something we can squeeze or is it something i may need to hammer?
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I already did some squeezing last night, so it might be OK. I'm still looking at bending the shoulders slightly too, but sides were actually pretty easy to squeeze once the plackart was off.
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well thats cool.
now would you wear your livery over it still or jsut wear the breastplate to show it off? heheh
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In class I'll probably just wear the armor bare. At faire, I'd make it pretty.
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coolness. that always works good.
now get off your butt and take a picture all together ehheehehehehe
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This is an amazing thread, I never thought how much fun creating a14th Century Kit could be!
Sir Edward: Thank for showing how to make a Globose Breatsplate out of a GDFB Breastplate! You're a genius!
Das Bill: Quote
Couldn't you strap the plackart over a brigandine for an awesome 15th century kit?
I had been thinking about the same thing. Smiley
In my first post, I was considering on making a plakart/brigandine Kit via Merc Tailor's. But later on I figured that 14th Century Style fits my budget and my interests.
It does seem that I will be joining Sir Edward in the Mid-Late 14th Century Kit Club!
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you know, Merc Tailer is having a sale on his greaves right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get them quick!!
also, where is our new picture with the globose on?
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also, where is our new picture with the globose on?
Kinda hard to do while in California. :)
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Cali? I just left there...what're you doin out there? :)
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oh really? shame you had someone break into your house and steal your armour and weapons like that while you were gone
hehehehe evil grin hehehe jkjk
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Again?!? Wow that really is some rotten luck there Ed…btw anyone want to see my newly 'acquired' Albion Crecy? (http://www.free-emoticons.co.uk/emoticons/Angel/pray.gif) (http://www.smileys.me.uk/)
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Hey, I just found a Landgraf in my shed...who put that there? :o
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you know, Merc Tailer is having a sale on his greaves right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get them quick!!
And I should have pics of them in a few days I hope. Supposed to be shipped this past weekend. :D
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Which ones did you get, James? The cased ones? I think you mentioned that at the knighting ceremony. I owned a pair of his plate greaves and decided on the splinted ones (which you saw) - but I think I liked the plate ones better. The splinted ones are pretty...and also pretty heavy. Not so bad with the bracers but the greaves...I bought boot straps with a thick leather face to offset some of the weight of the greave as it can drive into the top of your foot, which can be most uncomfortable, especially when walking.
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Cali? I just left there...what're you doin out there? :)
Business trip. I was there all week (and lost my iphone in the process... grrr!!!)
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Oy...these days its like losing your bag at the airport, eh? I hate how dependent I am on my stupid phone- which did me absolutely zero good at VARF- anyone else have trouble with cell service while there?
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Oy...these days its like losing your bag at the airport, eh? I hate how dependent I am on my stupid phone- which did me absolutely zero good at VARF- anyone else have trouble with cell service while there?
I think my phone worked at VARF, barely. What carrier are you on?
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T-Mobile...ordinarily very good but not down there! lol
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Lol, Langdraf in the shed......hahahahahahahaha ;D
That's hilarious. But really, how many Albions does Sir Edward have left........Uhh....I mean how many are still on "sale"? ;)
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Wait, he's selling them? Sir Edward...I did not know that. Which ones are you looking to let go? :)
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What? No, no, no. I'm thinking of selling off some of my older stuff... You know, the old SLO type stuff.
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Hahahaha, guys I was reffering to the same sale Sir William and Brian went to..... ;)
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Wait, he's selling them? Sir Edward...I did not know that. Which ones are you looking to let go? :)
It's an inside joke, that someone was going to take all of his Albions while he was over on the left coast. AFAIK, they're not *actually* for sale. ;)
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Oh that's right, I forgot...Brian and I offered to house them temporarily during his move...but he never said yea or nay. lol
Still, Sir Edward, I'm interested to see what you're letting go!
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OK, so it's been more than a year since I ordered the extra links from KoA, and they're still back-ordered. I've been waiting on that for tailoring the mail haubergeon, constantly thinking they'll be here any week now. :)
I'm itching to taper those sleeves, and replace the triangular expansions at the base that I added with butt-links.
KoA had sent me the tool back in March 2011, but the links are still back-ordered. I got tired of waiting, and ordered a set of links and a tool from Icefalcon (the tools are different, but I'm not sure to what degree). Anyway, I ordered over $200 of stainless links. They arrived, but the tool is backordered. *sigh*
I've been avoiding unwrapping the GDFB tool from KoA, in case I choose to send it back, but I'm wondering if it'll work OK with the Icefalcon rivets? No idea.
And this is going to be more of an issue soon if I order myself a hauberk for my c.1300 kit as well. Lots more tailoring to do.
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OK, so it's been more than a year since I ordered the extra links from KoA, and they're still back-ordered. I've been waiting on that for tailoring the mail haubergeon, constantly thinking they'll be here any week now. :)
I'm itching to taper those sleeves, and replace the triangular expansions at the base that I added with butt-links.
KoA had sent me the tool back in March 2011, but the links are still back-ordered. I got tired of waiting, and ordered a set of links and a tool from Icefalcon (the tools are different, but I'm not sure to what degree). Anyway, I ordered over $200 of stainless links. They arrived, but the tool is backordered. *sigh*
I've been avoiding unwrapping the GDFB tool from KoA, in case I choose to send it back, but I'm wondering if it'll work OK with the Icefalcon rivets? No idea.
And this is going to be more of an issue soon if I order myself a hauberk for my c.1300 kit as well. Lots more tailoring to do.
It seems like unless the rivet heads match exactly, they get distorted with a "mismatched" tool. I have the Historic Enterprises tool, and it doesn't work with the IceFalcon rings. I've got the IceFalcon tool also. I doubt I'll get around to tailoring my mail anytime within the next month or two, since I'm focusing on the plate for VARF, you're welcome to borrow my IceFalcon tool. Plus it's got semi-cushioned grips. :)
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Cool, I might give that a shot.
Yeah, I have some plasti-dip for when I start using my tools. Hopefully that helps.
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Cool, I might give that a shot.
Yeah, I have some plasti-dip for when I start using my tools. Hopefully that helps.
It does, that's exactly what I used.
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They use PD for a lot of applications...the clowns on my car forum are using it to black out their rims, trim and other stuff that doesn't require a light source behind it. Pretty cool too since they can just peel it off if they tire of the look, and its way cheaper than getting that stuff anodized.
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So I have some 14th C. gaunts coming soon. Andrey Galevskiy (Ukrainian armorer) is making them:
(https://scontent-a-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/q71/s720x720/1391948_449513795159716_883388251_n.jpg)
(hopefully hot-linking from FB will work)
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hot-linking worked
And awesome! I believe that's the guy who used to work at (or still is?) Hammer Breaker, same one who made the greaves I've been wearing the last year.
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pretty!
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Oooo very nice, I do like that first knuckle articulation.
G.
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He does a really nice job in the shaping, and includes that double/sliding knuckle-bow. His price is really good for mild-steel, but I paid the extra to have it done in stainless so I don't have to clean so much rust off of them. I may do future components in spring-steel, but gaunts are a paint to de-rust.
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He does a really nice job in the shaping, and includes that double/sliding knuckle-bow. His price is really good for mild-steel, but I paid the extra to have it done in stainless so I don't have to clean so much rust off of them. I may do future components in spring-steel, but gaunts are a paint to de-rust.
You'd be surprised how little they rust if they had a good polish to begin with and you keep them clean. After 3 days of DoK and about 100 kids handling and trying on my gauntlets, there was a speck of rust on one of the index finger tips, and it came right off.
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nice, whatcha doing with the old ones?
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You'd be surprised how little they rust if they had a good polish to begin with and you keep them clean. After 3 days of DoK and about 100 kids handling and trying on my gauntlets, there was a speck of rust on one of the index finger tips, and it came right off.
The bolded part is the problem. You see, I know myself all too well. :)
nice, whatcha doing with the old ones?
Oh, I'll still use them for HEMA (in conjunction with the new Darkwood gaunts I picked up). They're beaten all to hell, but still working.
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The bolded part is the problem. You see, I know myself all too well. :)
My 'keeping them clean' regimen is wipe off the dirt after 3 days of use, oil them, and sit them on a shelf until I use them again. It's pretty minimalist :)
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My 'keeping them clean' regimen is wipe off the dirt after 3 days of use, oil them, and sit them on a shelf until I use them again. It's pretty minimalist :)
That sounds great, but trust me, I'd find a way to ruin them. :)
Also, my new house has a lot more humidity. I'm finding that things rust faster here than at my previous condo.
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spring steellllllll droooooooollllllllllllzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Sweet!
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I finally remembered to check that picture out from the home computer this morning! - Those gaunts look great! I can't wait to see them! :)
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Sir Edward, do you have an updated picture of your 14th century Kit? I would love to admire it over the interwebs :)
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Sir Edward, do you have an updated picture of your 14th century Kit? I would love to admire it over the interwebs :)
I don't have a lot of great pictures of it. But here are a few. One of the problems I have is that the besegews aren't staying where they should, and I never think to fix them before taking pictures, so they look awful. I'm going to point them to the mail instead of the spaulders to correct this.
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/faire/b3563.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/faire/b3563b.jpg)
(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/993683_10151863329976341_2018020660_n.jpg)
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I said updated! With the new hourglass gauntlets et al :)
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I said updated! With the new hourglass gauntlets et al :)
Ah, then the answer is 'no' :)