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Main => The Library => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2011-01-12, 16:07:16
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Featuring John Clements and Terry Jones:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/medieval-fight-book-5366/Overview#tab-Videos/09511_00 (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/medieval-fight-book-5366/Overview#tab-Videos/09511_00)
It could be interesting. But I really would prefer them to interview Christian Tobler instead of John Clements. Personal bias of mine, I suppose. :)
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I have to agree with you there! :D
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Why the bias?
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I can't speak for Sir Ed. As for myself, I confess, part of it is personal bias in that I consider Mr. Tobler a friend. On a slightly more objective level, I am continually impressed by the scholarly work that Mr. Tobler produces. You can find a sample here:
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/
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Why the bias?
I agree with what Sword Chick said. But also, John Clements has done a really good job of sectioning himself and ARMA off from most of the rest of the HEMA/WMA community.
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Understood.
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Looks like it should be entertaining. Take it with a grain of salt, because from their promo alone I can already tell they're working off some outdated theories. For example, they seem to be going off the idea that Talhoffer's illustrations of the duel between a man and woman might possibly be a thing that Talhoffer made up (the woman in the video makes a point of prefacing her opinions with that). That was a theory some 15 years ago. There are dozens of other manuscripts that show this type of duel and have pretty specific descriptions of the laws and customs.
I look forward to catching this when it's out. Though I do wish people would stop making it sound like Talhoffer is so unique and unusual. :)
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I took one class with John Clements last year, and it opened my eyes to a number of WMA things I never knew. ARMA was one of the first "local" forums I came across, there was a post about him coming out to teach a class near my house. He was a good instructor. At first, I was interested in becoming an ARMA member, but after hearing the part about "and what you learn is not to be taught to anyone else", as essentially a "what happens in ARMA, stays in ARMA" feeling, I realized it's not the place for me.
The best thing about the class is that it brought to my attention there are lots of groups if I learned terms like HEMA, WMA, KDF, etc, that I never knew existed.
I set myself a reminder for the show, and hopefully I can record it and post a digital copy of it for those unable to watch it. My tech is, unfortunately, medieval as well, as I'll need to record it on a VCR (like from the museums) and then convert it to PC format. I'll post up a link if I can get it done and the quality isn't horrendous.
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"and what you learn is not to be taught to anyone else" - what kind of happy crap is that?
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"and what you learn is not to be taught to anyone else" - what kind of happy crap is that?
How very medieval of them... Yes, they generally also take a stance that they are the only one true reconstruction of the sword arts, and the rest of the community are years behind. It gets tiring seeing those arguments crop up.
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"and what you learn is not to be taught to anyone else" - what kind of happy crap is that?
Hehe sounds about on par with “The Great Pumpkin” cult of Charles M. Schulz. ;)
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Oh! If you'd said "like the Church of Scientology" I would've understood implicitly. I find such pronouncements to be ludicrous when referring to certain subjects. I mean, unless of course there's a Wanderer about who lived during the times they proclaim themselves to be indentifying with, like the artes martial that they practice, for example. There's no feasible way to corroborate what they claim to know, beside a few treatises and fechtbuchs that have survived the passage of time.
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"and what you learn is not to be taught to anyone else" - what kind of happy crap is that?
How very medieval of them... Yes, they generally also take a stance that they are the only one true reconstruction of the sword arts, and the rest of the community are years behind. It gets tiring seeing those arguments crop up.
Yep. And the name of his school, "The Iron Door", makes it even more obvious.
I'm just glad we have people like Das Bill and the others who are willing to teach without requiring a vow of silence.
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hear hear
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hear hear
Dude, you got that right. I see so many people type "here here"... and I just want to correct all of them, but bite my tongue. :)
Anyway, did anyone catch this last night? I did.
It was OK. It had some good stuff in it, but spent most of its time on siege engines and the like. It touched on the judicial duels, and put a lot of emphasis on the pommel strikes. They did some interesting experiments in creating a diving suit, talked about cannons a little, etc.
The narrator said "platemail" at one point, and I cringed. John Clements also said "chainmail", but these days it seems you have to say that for people to know what you're talking about.
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i missed it. got sick last night with a head cold and the world was in a blur
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The narrator said "platemail" at one point, and I cringed. John Clements also said "chainmail", but these days it seems you have to say that for people to know what you're talking about.
Unfortunately, this is true. If you just say 'mail' they are likely to think you're referring to the postal variety, just to be funny for some, but for others - that would be their actual thought process. lol
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John Clements posted his blog entry on the whole filming process. He couldn't post it until the show aired.
http://www.historicalfencing.com/Talhoffers-Fight-Book-Blog.html (http://www.historicalfencing.com/Talhoffers-Fight-Book-Blog.html)
He mentions that the director wanted him to say "chainmail", and he didn't fight it because, quite frankly, they were hired to just do a job. :)
I also though this part was interesting:
" I have to say, when it comes to facing armor I thought if I had to I could take on an armored opponent while unarmored and use greater agility and speed to get at his weak spots with thrusts. No chance. Aaron knows how to fight in armor and facing him was quite intimidating, even without the wet ground and drizzling rain and restrictions on how much we could step and move in that confined space, I know I could not have gotten a thing in on him. We were using the Albion feder-sword blunts for this and had warmed up with some free play in between takes. I could sense the mass and power of the armor bearing down on me. I couldn't see a single opening or figure out how I could have gotten a single thrust in the right place. Meanwhile, I could see Aaron detecting this and becoming more aggressive with his own thrusts and half-swording strikes. "
It's still possible of course, but I think it's cool that he was humbled by it. Speed and agility are only part of the equation. If the visor is down, the armored guy has a lot less visibility. And I also know from experience that if you're not used to fighting in it, you can get tired pretty fast, even though it's not really slowing you down much. It's just simply costing more energy to do everything.
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I was expecting much more of armored/hand-held weapon combat than the siege machines and diving suit, but it was still interesting nonetheless. I was able to record it but my PC isn't accepting the audio very well, and it glitches every 5-10 seconds. Not sure if it's the drivers, VCR, tape, or what. :(
I was quite surprised to hear John Clements make that comment; he seemed almost humbled, and not nearly as arrogant as some make him out to be. I think he was even one of the three who did the air pumping for the diving suit.
I think that two experienced fighters, armored vs unarmored, then armored probably has the advantage. An inexperienced armorer fighter vs an experienced unarmored one, I think could be a different story. Having two knowledgeable guys go at it was very interesting. They should do more of it for us to see.
Edit: I get the same impression about "chainmail" and "platemail". If you're on TV and may have a random audience, using the more well-known word, even if it's "wrong", seems to be the way to go.
Imagine saying "I own a white harness" to someone outside of our interest:
Them: "A harness? Like a man girdle?"
You: "No, a harness. It's a full suit of armor."
Them: "Wait, you wear suits?"
You: "No, it means it covers your whole body."
Them: "And it's white? Like a storm trooper?"
You: "No, it's steel. Silver. It's just called a white harness because of the era it was made and amount it covered."
Them: "Why?"
You: "Because... well, I don't know. But it looks spiffy."
I usually say "plate mail" because of that. :)
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His writing style can definitely be very arrogant at times, but there was a lot less of that in his blog about this. That was good to see.
I was disappointed by the lack of the combat techniques covered as well, and apparently so was JC according to his blog. They filmed entire sequences for dueling with shields, and messer techniques, none of which were used. They instead focused on a handful of strange plates in the manuscript, despite the fact that the bulk of the book is about combat.
I wasn't happy with the "crayfish" segment at all. I think it was entirely speculation. Not to mention, what they were suggesting for use in a castle gateway would require alterations that I don't think anyone has ever recorded finding in historic castles. There's so little to go on, I think it's a real waste that they spent so much time on it rather than something that would be really cool, like the messer combat.
I understand about the use of "chainmail". But really, if you said "plate armor" instead of "platemail", I don't think it would be lost on anyone.
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Sir Edward- someone, somewhere would go home and tell his friends he met someone who used dinner plates for armor. I swear it. lol
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I was disappointed overall with the program. It seemed more like an episode of "Ancient Discoveries" than anything else. I liked the fighting sequences, but felt there weren't enough. Bummer to hear they shot a lot more and didn't use them.
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I'll have to see if I can get this on OnDemand.
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I wasn't happy with the "crayfish" segment at all. I think it was entirely speculation. Not to mention, what they were suggesting for use in a castle gateway would require alterations that I don't think anyone has ever recorded finding in historic castles. There's so little to go on, I think it's a real waste that they spent so much time on it rather than something that would be really cool, like the messer combat.
I thought it was very strange, too. The only reasonably close half-guess I could approximate would be based around "murder holes", that if I remember right were holes around the portcullis area so that defenders could spear or shoot at attackers. I just don't see the "crayfish" being used like that. It's as if they played too many Tomb Raider or Zelda games. The tank and other designs were feasible, especially since they showed a functional medieval diving suit ... but the crayfish ... just not sure about that. Doesn't seem like the materials and labor it would require would be even remotely efficient, in cost or application.
I'll have to see if I can get this on OnDemand.
I'm going to see if I can get my dad to dump my tape of it to digital format this weekend. It's not HD or anything, but it's at least watchable.
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Sir James, that'd be awesome!
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BTW, it's on youtube: (they divided it up strangely, as part 4 is only 22 seconds, I think because they wanted to run right up to a 15 minute limit on the other three)
Part 1:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZGWiHBbv4[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZGWiHBbv4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZGWiHBbv4)
Part 2:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wwILFEN-sg&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wwILFEN-sg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wwILFEN-sg&feature=related)
Part 3:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852OWMNYSu8&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852OWMNYSu8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852OWMNYSu8&feature=related)
Part 4:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on0HTC93llI&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on0HTC93llI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on0HTC93llI&feature=related)
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Oh boy, something to look at while working on Monday!
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Thanks Sir Edward. Audio on mine came out poorly. I found a copy via torrent, but was reprimanded on another forum for posting about it due to copyright issues.
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I watched it and thought it was... OK. JC comment about the effectiveness of a Mordhau surprising him surprised me. It isn't called a murder stroke for nothing. :)
But anyway... Is it just me or is Mike Loades like the Rick Bayless of WMA?
-Ivan
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I'm not sure who Rick Bayless is, but I like Mike Loades enthusiasm and presentation style.
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I'm not sure who Rick Bayless is, but I like Mike Loades enthusiasm and presentation style.
Rick Bayless does a show on PBS called 'Mexico, One Plate At A Time'
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeFl3bShnQ4[/youtube]
If you like Mario Batali or Andrew Zimmern, then you'll like Rick Bayless, and just like those guys Mike Loades makes me want to go out and do the thing that he's doing with his infectious enthusiasm.
Just like he does in 'Weapons That Made Britain'
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEMwcSGauY8[/youtube]
-Ivan
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I recognize that Del Tin 5140 he's showing off! Ahh, you never forget your first sword!
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I know this is late, but here is my take on this:
1. The documentary (to me) is for the general public that has no clue as to what HEMA is or how the Middle Ages were really beack then. This is a documentary for for your average dummy.
2. I would have love Tobler to demonstrate the techniques rather than John Clements (in my view knows what he talks about, but his practice method to me is questionable and reinforcing the notion of flat vs. edge subtly) And too much telegraphing from both fighters!
3. If there is any redeeming quality in this documentary, Mike Loads section of the siege technology is amazing!
4. On Terry Jones, nice guy but his documentary of the Knight, literally ticked me off! In this one, he appears humble which is good.
So far, a nice documentary I would present in one of my college presentations, but not in a HEMA study group.