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Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Brian on 2009-06-07, 21:52:10
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Talking about the Deadliest Warrior series on Spike TV and the episode where they matched
a pirate against a knight.
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/pirate-vs-knight/31860 (http://www.spike.com/full-episode/pirate-vs-knight/31860)
They had the pirate win by approximately 65% of the time which I think is a bunch of BS since a
majority of the pirate's kills was attributed to the blunderbuss and grenado. Both are certainly
devestating weapons but not all that reliable in firing or of getting a projectile through the armor
and into a vital "instant" kill area. I also don't think the simulation program took into account that
the 25 kills afforded to the cutless is wrong solely because of the lack of effectiveness of an edged
weapon vs armor. Then there is the offensive capabilities of the armor itself vs an unarmored opponent. >:(
What I would have really liked to have seen is the knight vs the samuari or ninja. ;)
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Yep, sounds like BS to me. Not to mention the fact that most pirates weren't well trained in the combat arts, whereas knights could afford it. The cutlass was designed for close-up fighting in confined spaces, not penetrating armor. A matchlock firearm would have to be prepared in advance (can't be kept loaded for lengthy periods of time because moisture will ruin the charge, and the match cord has to be lit in advance). And if your one-shot misses, you're screwed.
These sorts of comparisons almost never accomplish anything beyond being an interesting thought experiment. I would suspect any "simulation" to be dubious at best.
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i think that show dumbs down history too much. its like looking at the United Cutlery Catalog for the first time. we were all ooooooo and ahhhhhhhhhh over the 440 stainless steel swords until we read 1 book and where like those are junk. same thing here hehehe. only i haven't watched the show.
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the show is okay if you take it for what it is: amusing scenarios that make you want to say
"what if" Other than that, it's pretty much as I was explaining it to Sir Edward and Sir Brian
at VARF... :)
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the show is okay if you take it for what it is: amusing scenarios that make you want to say
"what if" Other than that, it's pretty much as I was explaining it to Sir Edward and Sir Brian
at VARF... :)
lol! I knew I heard about this from somewhere before!
...It must of been those last few nips of scotch you so graciously shared with me from that
weekend that went straight to my memory! ;)
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Scotch? What Scotch?...... :D
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Greetings ok I know this is a little out dated but I had to chime in.
In the Knight v Pirate episode they take no account of the availability of the technology. They pit the "absolute apex " of pirate tek against the "absolute must haves" of any self respecting Knight.
I have been led to believe that at max there were 4 or 5 grenades on an entire ship to be used in volley against another ship. Not really carried around on land. The availability of the blunder bust is on the same standard.
I know the show is supposed to be entertaining. It just makes my job harder in the real world when I half to reeducate people at fair.
HeHe that's funny my real world job is at fair it's a tuff life.
Nute & Donna
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Greetings ok I know this is a little out dated but I had to chime in.
Huzzah the Gnome is back! Looking forward to seeing you both in October! :)
In the Knight v Pirate episode they take no account of the availability of the technology. They pit the "absolute apex " of pirate tek against the "absolute must haves" of any self respecting Knight.
I have been led to believe that at max there were 4 or 5 grenades on an entire ship to be used in volley against another ship. Not really carried around on land. The availability of the blunder bust is on the same standard.
I know the show is supposed to be entertaining. It just makes my job harder in the real world when I half to reeducate people at fair.
I also don't care for some of their other match ups as well...most don't make any sense at all. :-\
HeHe that's funny my real world job is at fair it's a tuff life.
The irony is delicious! :D
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I must say I had the misfortune to watch this............ WHAT A LOAD OF OLD CRAP !!
lol
G
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I found a link to an interesting online article along this same general subject except it looks at that
old Samurai vs Knight debate. I think it covered everything quite well. ;)
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm (http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm)
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Samurai vs Knight would've made a lot more sense to me personally, as they both personify the pinnacle of medieval/renaissance warfare (longbowmen notwithstanding of course). I know I'm biased but I fully believe that the Knight would've emerged victorious, as he should've against the Pirate. What ludicrous nonsense; an unarmored lightly armed vagabond sailor can take down a fully armed and armored knight, trained vigorously for years in cavalry and foot warfare? I KNOW not. If I were that knight, I would've charged him straight on before he had a chance to load, light or fire the damned thing and skewered him with my spear.
The Deadliest Warrior is pure entertainment disguised as a learning medium; that is its greatest sin- that people will come away believing that BS. They did get some of them right, like the SWAT vs GSG9 episode for starters...
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What rubbish TV is always dumbed down for the masses. Almost reminds me of this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-9I-Imp5BE
Thats butted mail and they're passing it off as the real thing when real mail could deflect both stabs and slashes. Proves books and whatnot are the only real way of learning about the medieval age.
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Heh, yeah. Just because it looks like armor, doesn't mean it is armor. We need a new term I think... ALO: Armor-Like Object. :)
It's interesting that they never stopped to think: If the armor was that useless, why would you wear all that weight? Not only did they use butted mail, but they also hung it with no backing. The cushioning of the gambeson and the body underneath it also helps to disperse the energy, protecting both the wearer and the armor itself. The more removed it is from its actual use, the less valuable the test.
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Much like the Windlass test where they lay the maille over a block of wood and chop down on it with a sword. Still, it moves merchandise, no? That video looked like a bunch of guys just out messin around- you could tell they'd done no study whatsoever of the weapons they were using for their test.
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Well I finally got around to watching this, and I have to agree with everything we already said about it. The show wasn't as bad as I expected, but boy do they dumb it down for the masses. It's really a shame, because they could have used the time to make it even more informative and still not lose the excitement. Instead, a lot of the show boiled down to:
"Pirates suck!"
"No, knights suck!"
They mentioned, and then completely ignored the level of martial arts training that a knight had. They put a huge emphasis on gunpowder-- while not entirely misplaced, these are also one-shot weapons that are unreliable, and can't be used at a moment's notice due to needing lit match-cord (at least for the grenades, and possibly the guns if they were match-locks, which were very common during the relevant period before flintlocks took off).
The simulation itself I bet is nothing but a bunch of random numbers generated against a bunch of made up probabilities based on their assessment of those weapon tests. Completely useless.
It was certainly entertaining, but as usual, the results have to be taken with a grain of salt.
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I didn't even find it all that entertaining...when you know they're basically lying to you, it is hard to stomach. I am reasonably sure not every knight was of champion mettle, just like I am reasonably sure that not every pirate was agile or well trained in the arts of land warfare...but the problem is, that any Joe Public watching the show is going to believe this crap because -
a - he saw it on tv
b - they used a hi-tech computer to run complex algorithms to come up with the results
c - the testosterone level is almost prohibitive to ordered, intellectual conversation/debate
d - the producers are unlearned sellouts w/regard to all things medieval, but they do know how to cater to our idiot populace
I guess we're in agreement, Sir Edward.
They had one where it was a gladiator (or Roman soldier) vs a samurai - I would've chosen the samurai myself simply because I feel they would've prevailed but the Japanese guys they had there were so high on themselves it was ridiculous to me. Far as I'm concerned, no sensei should ever stoop to laying insults to elevate his own art, it isn't necessary and makes you look foolish, IMO.
Anyway, they were going on and on about how the Japanese bow was such a great and powerful weapon and how he could put an arrow into the eye (and I do know that archery requires skill and finesse, I've tried it) but come on, from 20 feet away at the most?
The smug look on his face almost did me in. lol
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A while back they discussed how they do the scenarios. One of the guys (the laptop one?) wrote some software that does some sort of voodoo based on the effectiveness of values that they assign to the weapons from their "testing".
It does not take skill into consideration.
It does not take armor into consideration, except if specifically done during the weapon testing, which is to say, rarely ever and inconsistently.
It does not take multiple opponents on the field into consideration, except the specifically 5 vs 5 episodes.
It does not take surprise into consideration, which obviously hinders the ninja / stealth warrior group in that it was a trademark portion of their arsenal.
If it were a true "match", the pirate would have had his booty handed to him. ;)
There were a couple cool spots in the few episodes I watched (anything with ancient warriors) - like the guy who was superb with a bow - I won't spoil it by telling what it was, but I was impressed by it - and my grandfather was VA state champion in archery numerous years.
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I have to agree with what everyone has said so far.
I have not seen the particular episode being discussed but I have seen 2-3 of the other episodes. The one I remember most was Al Capone's gang vs. Jessie James...Jessie James won despite the fact the Capone gang had grenades and a Thompson SMG. It was ridiculous.
As Sir William has mentioned, the worst part is that people beleive this show as fact. Then they argue with you because the people on the show "proved" it with "tests".
Also From what I've seen in commercials for the show and on the DVD boxes of the show, the knights armour isn't historically put together at all. The pic I saw had a guy dressed in full maille with a 16thC burgonet and a viking sheild (could of also been a 16thC target). It's not as important or as bad as the other problems with the show but it just annoys me when they get armour screwed up. ;)
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I already knew it was fishy when they considered the swords to be equal. True, both a cutlass and an arming sword can cut through a pig. But they completely ignored the fact that for their experiment, the cutlass would have to go through mail and plate, whereas the arming sword would not. Likewise, the efficacy of the boarding axe was completely hinged on strikes against a helmet. They invalidated their own tests by ignoring variables and over-simplifying.
I have a feeling they like to "help" the underdog.
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Agreed...but a pirate besting a knight? Come on...even if the knight wore no armor, his superior skills and training would still see him best the pirate, I'll say 7 times out of 10.
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I have seen that episode and all I have to say about is that it is a Mother F********G DISGRACE!
They didn't take into consideration 16th Century Armor (which was the type of armor made when gunpowder weaponry was used)
They didn't take Medieval Martial Arts training into account, no Ringeck, no Talhofffer, nothing!
They didn't take into fact that Knights were capable of rolling in armor on the ground and would not be a sitting duck.
This episode pissed me off!
(All other considerations made courtesy of all of yee brethren need not mentioning)
I cannot bear to watch it.
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No worries guys. With all the other horrid misconceptions out there whats one more?
It's just mind candy. The ones who take this show for gospel think that a gun will kill you more dead than a combat knife.
-Ivan
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The ones who take this show for gospel think that a gun will kill you more dead than a combat knife.
That's true, and a good point. People don't realize just how horrific knife wounds can be. Let alone swords.
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The ones who take this show for gospel think that a gun will kill you more dead than a combat knife.
That's true, and a good point. People don't realize just how horrific knife wounds can be. Let alone swords.
Indeed. Just like the old saying "Do you know who ends up in a hospital after a knife fight?"
The winner.
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I have to agree with what everyone has said so far.
I have not seen the particular episode being discussed but I have seen 2-3 of the other episodes. The one I remember most was Al Capone's gang vs. Jessie James...Jessie James won despite the fact the Capone gang had grenades and a Thompson SMG. It was ridiculous.
Well, I can almost agree with this assessment and I'll explain why- yes, the Capone boys would be armed with better, more advanced weapons, but nowhere do you read these guys were crack shots. Jesse James and his boys, however, WERE not the spray and pray type like the typical gangster, they knew their irons and knew'm well.
I guess it would depend on the situation and to be honest, I don't think much of the comparison. I'd like to see a Ninja against a medieval-era Hashishin...but it'd be more fun to see them ply their trade in a contest rather than fight one another.
As for whether or not a gun will kill you deader than a knife, dead's dead, 'nuff said.