ModernChivalry.org

Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Mike W. on 2014-03-11, 21:17:41

Title: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Mike W. on 2014-03-11, 21:17:41
Various scenes in the Maciejowski Bible depict people being hacked apart. In this one particular scene (my favorite I might add) a guy is being cut in half and another is having his head cut open. I'm assuming this is merely an artistic representation of battle, but it makes me wonder if a sword in the right hands could really hew a spangenhelm, or cleave a man in chainmail.
(http://i.imgur.com/gyWqptF.jpg)
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-03-11, 22:14:24
i dunno........ sir edward i think has one, who wants to wear a helmet and lets try this out....
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-03-11, 22:45:15
Nope and nope.

I do have a junk 16 gauge mild helmet I'm going to show how effective a mace / war hammer / pollaxe is on, with video, at some point this summer.

But steel won't cut through steel unless it's a fabled anime katana. ;)
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-11, 22:47:57
Most of the crazy feats of strength and martial prowess in illuminations are depicting heroes and biblical characters.  So just like today when we depict superheroes doing things not possible, they were most likely doing the same thing, showing a hero or villain in a story doing something a normal person knows to be the stuff of heroic fantasy.

A lot of these things have been tested out to various levels of accuracy and the general consensus is armor is very effective.  Don't expect to ever cleave a helmet in twain or cut someone clean in half (especially through maille and padded armor). 
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-03-11, 23:09:01
hm that is a good point Sir Ian.

I have exerts from my 6th great grandmother's diary that stated that her husband split the drunkard land lord in half with a shillelagh after the guy had shot into the house killing my grandfather's brother and shooting her in the arm.... what would that mean? lol
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Stanislaw on 2014-03-12, 00:03:40
I agree with Ian's sentiments here.

Even though a lot of helms made these days are made thicker for reenactment battles, you still wouldn't be able to cleave through 16 or 18 gauge steel, let alone maille.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-03-12, 03:08:34
hm that is a good point Sir Ian.

I have exerts from my 6th great grandmother's diary that stated that her husband split the drunkard land lord in half with a shillelagh after the guy had shot into the house killing my grandfather's brother and shooting her in the arm.... what would that mean? lol

Sounds like more than the land lord was drunk :D
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-03-12, 03:09:34
I agree with Sir Ian.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-03-12, 13:20:06

We also have to remember that descriptions can be highly exaggerated in general, and it's possible that some artwork might follow a similar pattern to make a clear point.

For instance, if someone were hit in the head with a sword, right in the middle, it might be described as being "split in half" even if the sword only penetrated an inch or two. Linguistic exaggeration I suspect has been common throughout human history.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Stanislaw on 2014-03-12, 17:04:51
A short scientific video on the "cleaving" of steel and iron: Cutting of Swords and Armor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCtV_M1n38c#)
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Aiden of Oreland on 2014-03-12, 19:11:21
Well, these also may have been drawn by people who don't know what actual war looks like and only knows of the stories and has seen other pictures.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Mike W. on 2014-03-12, 22:29:16
I love how the artist chose to illustrate the intestines spilling out. They just don't illustrate Bibles today like they used to.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-13, 00:13:14
Disembowelment is my fav
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-03-13, 01:05:51
never ever eeeeeeeeeever an epic war....... unless theres impalement. there has to be impalement or its crap
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Aiden of Oreland on 2014-03-13, 01:20:03
never ever eeeeeeeeeever an epic war....... unless theres impalement. there has to be impalement or its crap

Other wise it looks like an SCA battle
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-03-13, 02:32:21
A short scientific video on the "cleaving" of steel and iron:

Nice! It's a shame the text speed is so varied, I had to rewind and pause half of it. Great info in it.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-03-13, 02:55:37
A short scientific video on the "cleaving" of steel and iron:

Nice! It's a shame the text speed is so varied, I had to rewind and pause half of it. Great info in it.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-03-13, 13:04:30
I love how the artist chose to illustrate the intestines spilling out. They just don't illustrate Bibles today like they used to.

So true, so true. Books in general would be so much better if they were illustrated like they were in the 13th century. :)
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir Robert on 2014-03-21, 04:27:05
Highly unlikely, not just as its steel vs steel, but the amount of force needed for such a blow, and speed at which it would have to be delivered would be in the 400 m/s @ well over 100 tons if modern stamping is any indication of sheer force. But considering that kind of impact would also move the person as well I think it's less likely. Shearing through maile is possible, but I think in tha case of a helm it would crush/deflect first. I have a Kevlar helmet from Desert Storm that was hit by shrapnel and was tore off my head by the force rather then penetrated not the same but it demonstrates force of impact. A axe with a spike will certainly pierce, but that's not cutting through.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir William on 2014-03-21, 16:11:20
I see it as being used for entertainment purposes- we all need our heroes to be larger than life, don't we?  Although I have often wondered, with adrenaline dumping gobs of go-juice into the bloodstream along with the very real fact that one could die that day if one did not commence with the killing- with that sort of cocktail, would it be so far fetched to see such feats in such a battle?  Even in these tests, there is no fear of reprisal or backlash, no one is fighting to the death (something that, I think, changes a man, at least in the moment) - when the exercise is over, everyone can sit down and talk about it, expound on theory but overall, it lacks the requisite punch that would be associated with real battle.  Maybe not necessarily cutting an enemy (or a helm) in twain but who knows?  We're used to a uniformity in armor due to modern materials and workmanship but would all warriors in period be dressed in similar quality armor?  Wouldn't an old, cheaply made pot helm be less likely to maintain structural rigidity than a well forged one?  Wouldn't a rusted, old hauberk be more likely to fail than one of higher quality?

Having never been in such a life or death situation, I can only speculate but I'd be willing to bet that those of us who serve or have served in the armed forces in wartime could expound at length in greater detail.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-03-21, 18:33:32
We're used to a uniformity in armor due to modern materials and workmanship but would all warriors in period be dressed in similar quality armor?  Wouldn't an old, cheaply made pot helm be less likely to maintain structural rigidity than a well forged one?  Wouldn't a rusted, old hauberk be more likely to fail than one of higher quality?

Given my basic understanding of metals, and having hit them with a hammer a bunch of times, I would say:

All warriors were not in similar quality armor: varied by region, maker, price, etc
A helm made with more slag, or less proper heat treating, would certainly be less protective
Rusted mail would certainly fail easier and much more quickly since the surface area of mail is so tiny on each individual ring

What I think would happen when slashing heavily into a slag-laden poorly made helmet would be that the helmet would deform and crumple, rather than split or shatter; the helmets I've seen from BotN that are cracked were heat treated modern materials. There's a "line" with heat treating where it is better to a certain extent, and beyond that extent, becomes more fragile and likely to crack instead of deform. Especially poorly done heat treating or material with too much slag, which won't take heat properly.
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2014-03-22, 18:02:32
Remember the helm from BOTN fro the Italian team that failed so bad there was a huge hole in it?

BTW this could easily kill someone if it happened with a sharp sword at Hastings (no cups remember), and this was just a stick fight for fun:

"To counter the very serious content on this page here is a video of me been hit in the groin" -B. Gill

Lochac Crown R8 BYE -- Count Sir Berenger of Nancy vs Sir Tomas Eskelson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al7PSazZEwY#)
Title: Re: Effectiveness of Medieval weapons
Post by: Lord Dane on 2014-03-22, 18:08:46
Yup. Looks about right. LOL