ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2012-07-07, 00:35:44
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Schielhau Krumphau (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKMPIFJkzk#ws)
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While I could do without the music, the exercises reminds me of the demo team practice my old dojo used to have.
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Hey look, thrusting! I might want to learn this. Could we have a go at figuring this one out on the 15th?
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That looks like some serious speed. So much for the "huge and unwieldy" european swords myth. ;)
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Hey look, thrusting! I might want to learn this. Could we have a go at figuring this one out on the 15th?
Sure we can have a more structured session on the 15th. Observe though that passive agent is countering the active agent's initital cutting attack with a Krumphau/Shielhau combination finishing off with the thrust. ;)
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I love these guys! Here's a couple more vids from presumably the same school
Zornhau training - Lichtenauers longsword techniques (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc#)
Zwerchhau, absetzen, nachreissen - longsword techniques training (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc#ws)
This level of speed and power is what's missing from just about every WMA school I've ever researched in the US short of ARMA (yeah, say what you will about John Clements' personality, but he gets this very important aspect of martial arts that most other HEMA/WMA organizations seem to ignore; the requirement for power and intent). That missing element is oft why I just have a hard time getting in to it myself. I understand that slower speed drilling as a safety measure is important at first, but a lot of techniques do not behave at half-speed like they would at full speed. I believe a lot of schools make concessions and compromise on historical technique as a result. You can not dismiss or rethink a technique based on it's behavior at half-speed. Train like you fight, fight like you train. If you truly want to become proficient at and master a martial art, then it must be conducted with speed, intent, and power. Danger is an inherent risk, after all, this is a martial art.
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That missing element is oft why I just have a hard time getting in to it myself. I understand that slower speed drilling as a safety measure is important at first, but a lot of techniques do not behave at half-speed like they would at full speed.
Thats why I advise many folks to watch Count Sir Marc de Arundel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschine/videos?query=marc (http://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschine/videos?query=marc)
I would also advise Count Sir Thjothrekr Eiriksen if there were vids of him being awesome.
Vid of Marc:
2012 June Crown - Marc vs Geoffrey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RqR5OvdWco#ws)
See me in the blue hood?
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This level of speed and power is what's missing from just about every WMA school I've ever researched in the US short of ARMA (yeah, say what you will about John Clements' personality, but he gets this very important aspect of martial arts that most other HEMA/WMA organizations seem to ignore; the requirement for power and intent). That missing element is oft why I just have a hard time getting in to it myself. I understand that slower speed drilling as a safety measure is important at first, but a lot of techniques do not behave at half-speed like they would at full speed. I believe a lot of schools make concessions and compromise on historical technique as a result. You can not dismiss or rethink a technique based on it's behavior at half-speed. Train like you fight, fight like you train. If you truly want to become proficient at and master a martial art, then it must be conducted with speed, intent, and power. Danger is an inherent risk, after all, this is a martial art.
Very well said, Ian.
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This level of speed and power is what's missing from just about every WMA school I've ever researched in the US short of ARMA (yeah, say what you will about John Clements' personality, but he gets this very important aspect of martial arts that most other HEMA/WMA organizations seem to ignore; the requirement for power and intent). That missing element is oft why I just have a hard time getting in to it myself. I understand that slower speed drilling as a safety measure is important at first, but a lot of techniques do not behave at half-speed like they would at full speed. I believe a lot of schools make concessions and compromise on historical technique as a result. You can not dismiss or rethink a technique based on it's behavior at half-speed. Train like you fight, fight like you train. If you truly want to become proficient at and master a martial art, then it must be conducted with speed, intent, and power. Danger is an inherent risk, after all, this is a martial art.
Be careful about discounting all of the HEMA groups though, there's more interest in speed and intent out there as time goes on. The MD-KDF guys are pretty intense, as an example.
At VAF, we don't always ramp up the speed, since they're a business with liabilities. But on our own time, some of us fight with a lot more intensity than we will in class, but with an eye toward safety, since you absolutely have to, otherwise people break bones and then can't play anymore.
Keep in mind also, a lot of these vids are planned. They're working on specific combinations of techniques, so there aren't many surprises, and thus it's safer to go fast and hard.
Any time you're fighting in a more freeform manner, some considerations have to be made for safety.
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Be careful about discounting all of the HEMA groups though, there's more interest in speed and intent out there as time goes on. The MD-KDF guys are pretty intense, as an example.
What? - No love for MASHS? :o
...And here I thought Larry totally convinced you of the necessity of having a chest protector when you train with us! ;)
At VAF, we don't always ramp up the speed, since they're a business with liabilities. But on our own time, some of us fight with a lot more intensity than we will in class, but with an eye toward safety, since you absolutely have to, otherwise people break bones and then can't play anymore.
Keep in mind also, a lot of these vids are planned. They're working on specific combinations of techniques, so there aren't many surprises, and thus it's safer to go fast and hard.
Any time you're fighting in a more freeform manner, some considerations have to be made for safety.
Hear hear! Well stated Sir Edward, after all we are the most important safety equipment for our fellow students of WMA. Just as in eastern martial arts the most dangerous sparring opponent you can face is a novice who has little or no control whereas the guys in the video demonstrated phenomenal blade control. :)
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Be careful about discounting all of the HEMA groups though, there's more interest in speed and intent out there as time goes on. The MD-KDF guys are pretty intense, as an example.
What? - No love for MASHS? :o
...And here I thought Larry totally convinced you of the necessity of having a chest protector when you train with us! ;)
LOL, hehe, nah I was just mentioning the MD KDF guys in particular since one of their main guys, Jake Norwood, is former ARMA. :) It's true though that some of the MASHS guys are super quick and can hit pretty hard.
All of this stuff is on a spectrum, as there are some groups that are pretty crazy, and others that take a more laid-back, analytical approach. Jake was telling me this weekend at NHSC that when he went to Swordfish, it was pretty intense. 30+ guys really trying to cleave each other in twain with those blunts.
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Nice discussion and I agree with Sirs Edward and Brian. Speed is not the same as intent, you can go slow but still can fight with intention. That was a lesson learned at NHSC and training with safety in mind allows both partners to learn the technique before jumping on speed. Speed and reflexes in free fencing or practice tend to the be the reasons why people either screw up a technique or cause a simple, yet unsafe accident (broken hands, wrists, fingers or worse flesh lacerations involved).
Concerning the videos, I have seen those exact videos (barring Thoresteinn's video) and they were made to show the technique without a chance of injury or accidents. The Scheilhau/Krumphau video is a nice video although I read in their comments that they practice both versions of the same cut (although I honestly don't know which versions) which would explain why their technique looks different than those we have seen in our sword classes. The Scheilhau for me was two variations: the first is the classic High False Edge Cut as seen in Ringeck, the second is a low version which looks like a transition of right Pflug to Left Pflug but with an abzetsen and Ochs thrust added. Whereas the Krumphau, pretty much the same except it is not an angled cut, but rather a straight cut downwards like a windshield wiper to the wrists.
I also agree with Sir Edward concerning Jake Norwood on how he uses power and speed in which I profess to know from experience from a first time free fencing bout with him. His closing into the Krieg is excellent and I admit to have taken a good number of shots from him and came out with no broken bones. Still it was an excellent and informative bout and I learned how to improve my bouting performance.
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. The analogy would be no live-fire exercises in military training because someone might get hurt, or worse, killed. When it comes to facing the enemy, they will pull no punches, and use no fancy laser-tag systems or simmunitions. Their intent is to kill or maim you. I intend to train to that level if I want to not end up dead, and I try to instill that in my flight students on a daily basis. Many new officers in the military do not comprehend the fact that they are learning to fly a war machine designed to kill the enemy, or at least survive long enough to get your comrades out of harm's way. I can't help but approach a martial art from the same position. It's a martial art after all. I firmly believe that you cannot master an art designed to kill, unless you're willing to accept some risk of injury.
My real point is, you will stop progressing as a practitioner unless you're willing to go to that next step. You will plateau at a point in your training where you simply cannot get any better because the laws of physics prohibit techniques from behaving accurately at less than 'dangerous' speeds, or develop the reaction times to respond to full-speed techniques. I have a hard time walking in the door knowing from the get-go, that a school will never let you progress to that level despite your actual skill. Safety is of paramount importance when you're starting and you have little control or understanding. But you have to go in to it accepting that you will hit a wall that can only be broken through with full speed and power. Make no mistake, in period, these men were learning to kill, not to practice a recreational activity for a hobby. That's what I find intriguing about ARMA. John Clements understands that we're not going to walk in to a store and have to defend our lives or honor with a sword, but he does his best to bridge that gap in the modern psyche which is where the biggest disconnect is in several WMA schools. My real beef with a lot of HEMA/WMA schools is that there's a zero-tolerance for a lot of willing students to accept risk, when that may be the only way to truly become great. Even the SCA guys are proud of their battle-wounds. A broken finger here or there is really part of the game, look at anyone in competitive or professional sports. In the historical sports world, look at full contact jousters, getting hurt and breaking bones is inherent to the sport. I'm not saying that's for everyone, but I hope that the sport progresses to a level where it's accepted on some level that certain individuals want to compete at that tier.
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With Ian here. One must accept injury & pain to train the martial arts.
Here's a vid of me in a HEMA class @ half speed breaking a guys finger badly:
Michael-Forrest (red) vs Sean (white).mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWexmx_nLpM#)
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With Ian here. One must accept injury & pain to train the martial arts.
Here's a vid of me in a HEMA class @ half speed breaking a guys finger badly:
You're misunderstanding me. The OPSO of my squadron broke his finger on a rope swing this weekend, so that doesn't mean anything. Accidents can happen at any time, at any speed, that's not the point. Injury is not a pre-requisite for being good.
This is what it boils down to for me:
Imagine you're wanting to get in to Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). You shop around for a good MMA or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school. You walk in to several martial arts studios. The first one you walk in to has a bunch of kids and teens rolling around on the ground so their parents don't have to watch them for a couple hours. The second one you walk in to has a bunch of women there for 'self-defense classes' and some guys who after you size them up you could clearly take on regardless of what color their belts are. The 3rd school you walk in to has a bunch of athletes in it, training hard, crushing heavy bags and flags on the walls for the guys they've put in to professional MMA. One look around that third school and every dude in there breathes fire and thirsts for the win. There's a guy on the sidelines with his arm in a sling, but the guy's pure gristle, no ounce of fat on him, waiting for his moment to get back in the ring.
Which school do you want to go to? I know my answer. I just feel like so many HEMA/WMA schools are fall in to school 2. I want to go to school 3. That element is missing from the schools I've been exposed to, and I have a feeling that masters of defence in the 14th and 15th centuries tended to employ their skills at School 3 as well.
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A broken finger here or there is really part of the game, look at anyone in competitive or professional sports. In the historical sports world, look at full contact jousters, getting hurt and breaking bones is inherent to the sport. I'm not saying that's for everyone, but I hope that the sport progresses to a level where it's accepted on some level that certain individuals want to compete at that tier.
Oh well I guess I met that particular criteria within the first two months of my WMA training when I had my finger broken the week before the 2011 Longpoint tournament. Of course I guess I should have stopped dueling right after it happened but the pain actually fed the fire and I fought two more duels before I had to stop because the swelling became too severe for me to hold the blade anymore. That finger has never been the same since nor will ever be again but I accept that as small payment for learning a lost martial art. ;)
- That said, all training is 'make believe'. It is a controlled exercise. Some sessions, instructors, schools, etc will exert more or less stringent tolerances but the at the end of the day it is still a controlled environment. If half the students are leaving in body bags or ambulances then it would be more true to the martial art but certainly not feasible. After all in the earlier middle ages knights did go to tournaments and trained with their actual weapons of war, it wasn't until the early 13th century when the terrible attrition upon the knighthood throughout Europe had become the likely impetus for the introduction of some safety measures with swords made of bone and blunted lances. ;)
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where you're coming from, and I still say there's more than just ARMA if you want to take it to that level. Each group has their own threshold of acceptable risk. Most of the local groups I interact with (Selohaar, MASHS, MD-KDF, VAF) train to strike with intent. ARMA does have a higher tolerance for risk than a lot of other groups, but they're not the only ones doing so.
Every time I pick up the swords, I know there's an inherent risk of injury. But that doesn't mean I'm going to intentionally try to hurt my training partner in spite of the safety gear he's wearing.
Also another consideration is that many of the sword techniques actually don't require much power to be effective against an unarmored opponent. It's a bit of a myth that you have to wind up and make a really powerful swing for it to be martially sound. Particularly in the thrust, it can only require a few pounds of force to pierce a person. Much of what we learn can be done elegantly and efficiently, in a way that is safe to practice, but also completely sound in an actual fight.
However, part of the problem is that some other techniques are so inherently dangerous or lethal that there simply is no way to train them safely, without hampering the martial effectiveness. An example would be some of the arm-breaks, that are intended to break the elbow or shoulder. So there will always be some considerations taken, just like any other lethal martial art.
This has to be true of military training. Unless you use live rounds aimed at each other in training, there are safety considerations being taken. I haven't been in the military myself, so correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't actually shoot at each other with live rounds in training, do they?
What most practitioners will do is take a combination of approaches. For instance, you can use a variety of cutting materials to see how the sword behaves in cutting through targets, combined with training with steel simulators to get the proper feel for bind-work, while also fighting with synthetics for safer full-speed bouting (though arguably steel can be one of the safer materials to work with in general), and so on. Just as you would train with firearms in a controlled firing range, and do other wargames without live rounds, you can train with mixed simulations for HEMA/WMA as well.
I'm not arguing with you, you're right that not all people take it seriously as a martial art. Lots of groups are turning it into more of a sport, and most treat it as a hobby. Many are interested from the historical aspect alone, and don't care about becoming truly proficient. But we're also talking about an obsolete martial art. You're unlikely to need to defend yourself in a dark alley with a longsword. No one has a need to learn it from a life-and-death standpoint as our ancestors did, so we're all approaching it from some other angle to begin with.
So the "tl;dr" point I'm making is that there are a wide range of approaches with different goals, and all martial arts training has some level of safety built in by necessity. Risk of injury is part of the game, but there's a difference between taking a risk to practice your art, versus getting reckless, or even following through with potentially lethal maneuvers with your training partner.
And some of the groups that "take it to the extreme" are also not learning the arts correctly either. They're so intent on making it "hardcore" that they're not learning from the period manuscripts, they're not training a particular cut or "play" with the necessary repetition to get it right. If the risk outweighs the martial training, you're not representing the art.
Which school do you want to go to? I know my answer. I just feel like so many HEMA/WMA schools are fall in to school 2. I want to go to school 3. That element is missing from the schools I've been exposed to, and I have a feeling that masters of defence in the 14th and 15th centuries tended to employ their skills at School 3 as well.
I see your distinction, and I wrote most of the above before I read your second message. :) That's true, it's hard to find groups that are fire-breathing athletes, but not impossible. The MD-KDF group I mentioned earlier is headed up by a former ARMA member, and they're a pretty athletic bunch. Some of the MASHS guys are fast and hard-hitting. At Longpoint last year, we saw quite a few injuries as a result of the intensity in the competitions, since people wanted to WIN.
These things aren't completely absent from the community.
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This has to be true of military training. Unless you use live rounds aimed at each other in training, there are safety considerations being taken. I haven't been in the military myself, so correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't actually shoot at each other with live rounds in training, do they?
No of course not, but I think that would be more along the lines of sparring with sharps, which I think we can all agree would be stupidly dangerous.
Which school do you want to go to? I know my answer. I just feel like so many HEMA/WMA schools are fall in to school 2. I want to go to school 3. That element is missing from the schools I've been exposed to, and I have a feeling that masters of defence in the 14th and 15th centuries tended to employ their skills at School 3 as well.
I see your distinction, and I wrote most of the above before I read your second message. :) That's true, it's hard to find groups that are fire-breathing athletes, but not impossible. The MD-KDF group I mentioned earlier is headed up by a former ARMA member, and they're a pretty athletic bunch. Some of the MASHS guys are fast and hard-hitting. At Longpoint last year, we saw quite a few injuries as a result of the intensity in the competitions, since people wanted to WIN.
These things aren't completely absent from the community.
That's good to hear. I hope those things become more ingrained in the community. The Japanese have gotten this right, look at Kendo for example, and that too for all intents and purposes is an obsolete martial art. You can bet your bottom dollar I will be the first to sign up at a school where I can learn to train HEMA with athleticism. I will say that even the 'study group' of ARMA closest to me is no where near what I was looking to do. The dude in charge of running that group is not even authorized to progress students to steel blunts. That was all I needed to hear on my 3rd lesson...
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Sir Edward makes a great point with the arm and elbow breaks. When Sir Nathan and I had our harnessfechten at the VARF demo, we agreed no locks or breaks. It does limit methods of attack, though, but I'll take a safer bout where nobody gets broken. :)
With Ian here. One must accept injury & pain to train the martial arts.
Ian, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm reading from your posts is that you don't have to *get* injured (or injure someone else) to be training with full intensity and drive, and just because you *get* injured (or injure someone else) doesn't mean that you were training with full intensity and drive. In other words, the injury itself is completely irrelevant to the "level" of training; the key is in the *accepting potential injury* that opens the door to more intense training that most others will not do?
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If I may make a brief contribution to this discussion...
I'm an athlete. Pure and simple. I train historical European martial arts hard, and I train the way I learned in other martial arts. I spend at least four to five hours a day doing drills (both solo and partnered, depending on circumstance), and I teach this 40 hours a week as a full time job. This is coupled with strength training and agility training (from pushups to medicine ball drills to sprinting drills). And while what I see in the video is excellent, I also train with people who can move every bit as fast and precise (both within my own group as well as people from other groups).
I'm not saying this to brag (in fact, I've never even brought this up before on the internet), but I say this to bring up the point that you can't generalize that all groups are the same. In fact, you can't even generalize that all people within a group are the same: I have many students who fall into all three of the categories you listed before: Kids who's parents want them to do something besides play video games, older adults who want a slow paced but unique work out, and people who are serious martial artists and want to become the best they can be. I encourage students to go as far as they want to go, and I don't push them to be something they don't want to be.
Heck, I know for a fact that this is true for ARMA. I've had a number of ex-ARMA guys come to my school over the years. Some are high level athletes, and some barely know their left from their right, and can't even keep balance during footwork drills. Just because you're part of a particular group, no matter how good the instructor is, you only get out what you put in.
So while I don't disagree with a lot that you said, I also don't want you to assume EVERYONE is like that in the HEMA scene. I think more and more you're going to see a much bigger variety of people involved as the art grows.
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so correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't actually shoot at each other with live rounds in training, do they?
No of course not, but I think that would be more along the lines of sparring with sharps, which I think we can all agree would be stupidly dangerous.
I do apologize for misunderstanding your original points. I was starting to go down the line of reasoning about how ALL training is an altered, unrealistic experience, simply because you're trying not to harm your training partners, while still learning a deadly martial art.
It could be argued that unless you're shooting at each other in earnest, or fighting with sharps, that you're not getting the full experience. :) But of course, doing so is absurd.
So I do apologize.
That's good to hear. I hope those things become more ingrained in the community. The Japanese have gotten this right, look at Kendo for example, and that too for all intents and purposes is an obsolete martial art. You can bet your bottom dollar I will be the first to sign up at a school where I can learn to train HEMA with athleticism. I will say that even the 'study group' of ARMA closest to me is no where near what I was looking to do. The dude in charge of running that group is not even authorized to progress students to steel blunts. That was all I needed to hear on my 3rd lesson...
The problem may be that there isn't a good group in your area. We're rather lucky here in the DC area, since we have MD-KDF, MASHS, VAF, and now a local Selohaar instructor, and also the DC Dueling Club (very informal group), plus a bunch of folks who aren't members of any of them, but study on their own or in small groups. All of them can cover the spectrum, as Bill pointed out.
This could be a good excuse to start your own. Many groups get started by having a few people get together with some books, and start working through it. Once the ball is rolling, you can attend a few events to match what you're doing with how others do it, fill in some gaps, and go from there.
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I see plenty of great points to consider.
I agree that practicing at full speed and power is the ideal scenario, however we need to play safe to 1. learn the correct body and blade mechanics, 2. get timing right, 3. help the other person learn the technique since not everyone fights or drills the same exact way.
Bouting or practicing at full speed or power is a risk by itself yet there is nothing wrong with playing safe as to prevent broken wrists, fingers or bones.
Never the less, I agree with what Das Bill ha stated here.
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Ian, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm reading from your posts is that you don't have to *get* injured (or injure someone else) to be training with full intensity and drive, and just because you *get* injured (or injure someone else) doesn't mean that you were training with full intensity and drive. In other words, the injury itself is completely irrelevant to the "level" of training; the key is in the *accepting potential injury* that opens the door to more intense training that most others will not do?
Yes, that is what I was trying to say 100%.
If I may make a brief contribution to this discussion...
I'm an athlete. Pure and simple. I train historical European martial arts hard, and I train the way I learned in other martial arts. I spend at least four to five hours a day doing drills (both solo and partnered, depending on circumstance), and I teach this 40 hours a week as a full time job. This is coupled with strength training and agility training (from pushups to medicine ball drills to sprinting drills). And while what I see in the video is excellent, I also train with people who can move every bit as fast and precise (both within my own group as well as people from other groups).
I'm not saying this to brag (in fact, I've never even brought this up before on the internet), but I say this to bring up the point that you can't generalize that all groups are the same. In fact, you can't even generalize that all people within a group are the same: I have many students who fall into all three of the categories you listed before: Kids who's parents want them to do something besides play video games, older adults who want a slow paced but unique work out, and people who are serious martial artists and want to become the best they can be. I encourage students to go as far as they want to go, and I don't push them to be something they don't want to be.
Heck, I know for a fact that this is true for ARMA. I've had a number of ex-ARMA guys come to my school over the years. Some are high level athletes, and some barely know their left from their right, and can't even keep balance during footwork drills. Just because you're part of a particular group, no matter how good the instructor is, you only get out what you put in.
So while I don't disagree with a lot that you said, I also don't want you to assume EVERYONE is like that in the HEMA scene. I think more and more you're going to see a much bigger variety of people involved as the art grows.
Bill, thank you for your addition to the discussion. I did come off as making an unfair and sweeping generalization so I will back-pedal a bit here if you'll allow. What you've said about having all '3' types of students in your school alone is very encouraging, in the respect that you allow the students to take their level of intensity as high as they are willing to go. Only then can someone grow as a martial artist. The level of dedication that you show to the sport is an inspiration to others. I wish most HEMA/WMA organizations had someone so dedicated to their craft. I think it says a lot that your full time job is WMA. The groups I've seen locally are generally lead by people who are, shall we say, not in the best shape, and do this as a pure part-time hobby. I want to learn from the dedicated practitioner!
The problem may be that there isn't a good group in your area. We're rather lucky here in the DC area, since we have MD-KDF, MASHS, VAF, and now a local Selohaar instructor, and also the DC Dueling Club (very informal group), plus a bunch of folks who aren't members of any of them, but study on their own or in small groups. All of them can cover the spectrum, as Bill pointed out.
This could be a good excuse to start your own. Many groups get started by having a few people get together with some books, and start working through it. Once the ball is rolling, you can attend a few events to match what you're doing with how others do it, fill in some gaps, and go from there.
Yes, I will definitely agree that I have been unable to find any good groups in my area. Who knows, Norfolk is a possible location for my next tour so maybe I'll be in the area one day!