ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Rodney on 2011-02-18, 15:30:47
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Within the last few days there has been an explosion of information regarding the business practices of Mr. Brian Price as it relates to armour, authors and royalties due.
The Armour Archive threads "The Sword in Two Hands by Brian Price" review wan (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=129990) and Revival.us spring steel gauntlets- review (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=130176) are some examples.
I'm always the skeptic and do not form an opinion until hearing all the sides (and there are usually many) to a story. There's just too much reliable information from very reputable sources coming to light lately. All this information is giving me a headache and put me in a really funky mood. I purchased Brian's book Techniques Of Medieval Armour Reproduction: The 14th Century many years ago and enjoy it to this day. Sadly, I doubt I'll be making another purchase from him.
Please form your own opinions as we are not lemmings, but intelligent adults. For my part I'm just going to sulk in a corner for a bit as my naivety bubble has been burst...
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I really didn't mean to start all this. All I was looking for was a few ideas for where to spend a B&N giftcard.
-Ivan
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I'll look over those threads, but I've heard from several people that I consider to be reliable (if not "inside") sources, and I agree with what you've said here. I really try to buy things elsewhere if I can. And it's a shame too. If you google around, you can find some very interesting writings on chivalry from Brian Price, and he was doing a good thing for the historical community with Chivalry Bookshelf, making a variety of books possible before other alternative publishing options became available. But something changed along the way.
EDIT: I see, from looking at the threads, that my "sources" chimed in directly there. I've been trying to respect their privacy on the matter of royalties and the like by not repeating it myself. But the cat's out of the bag, for better or worse. For those who have no idea what we're talking about, go to this thread (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=129990) and scroll down to the comments from Christian Tobler and Greg Mele.
I really didn't mean to start all this. All I was looking for was a few ideas for where to spend a B&N giftcard.
I wouldn't worry about it. This is something that has been simmering for quite some time.
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"TL;DR" version: Brian Price apparently has no scruples, and avoids paying his authors, printers, and suppliers. So it would be best not to buy books published by Chivalry Bookshelf, or buy anything through revival.us (both of which he runs).
As an aside, I've removed the link to revival.us from the links page.
One additional note though-- If you do want those books, they're worth buying, but not through the CB website or other retailers. Get a used copy, or buy them from Purpleheart if you can, since they pre-stocked a bunch.
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A former business partner, Mr. Doug Strong (Talbot) has now chimed in with a lengthy post on page 3. It's getting worse, if that's possible.
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Brian Price himself also has chimed in on page 3 as well, and others have rebutted. Wow. This is nuts.
As much as I don't want to give him any business, I will personally make one exception in that I would still recommend for people to buy "In Service of the Duke" from Christian Tobler. It's the only way to get a full-color reproduction of a historical combat manuscript, and it is beautifully made. The price-tag is huge, yes, but it's worth it as an heirloom quality collectible. Since there is no alternative, I still encourage people to get this if they can, and if they can swallow putting some money in Mr Price's pockets.
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I have a copy of TOMAR, and it's a great resource. I don't have any direct interactions with him, and it's sad to see the reality come out. Seems like at least half of the normally praised armorers in the last few years have either lost their morals or have gone under. I was waiting patiently for his 15th century book, which has been almost as long in the making as Duke Nukem Forever.
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Wow, someone just added an accusation of plagiarism to the thread too:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1923225#1923225 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1923225#1923225)
Man, I certainly take no pleasure in seeing people's disgraces and problems, but I think it's important that all of this gets aired into the open. Criminal and unethical behavior should not be left unchallenged, even if that action is only to make others aware so they don't fall into his trap.
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I really didn't mean to start all this. All I was looking for was a few ideas for where to spend a B&N giftcard.
-Ivan
Ivan,
I think you have unwittingly done a service to hundreds, maybe thousands, of people. ;)
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Ivan,
I think you have unwittingly done a service to hundreds, maybe thousands, of people. ;)
Yes but reading that thread is like watching a car crash; you know something aweful is gonna happen but you just cant turn away.
BTW am I the only one to notice that the behavior Mr Price is showing and the ideals held up in the (very good) Book Of The Tournament that he wrote are just a wee bit dissimilar?
-Ivan
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BTW am I the only one to notice that the behavior Mr Price is showing and the ideals held up in the (very good) Book Of The Tournament that he wrote are just a wee bit dissimilar?
I think that's one of the more shocking aspects of this whole thing. I doubt anyone expected someone who takes chivalry so seriously, and has written about it so well, to be capable of doing these things. I mean, my initial gut reaction, upon hearing that someone takes chivalry and knighthood seriously, is to assume that their honor is above reproach. Who expects someone to be so two-faced?
But I think there are a lot of people like this in the world. People who are narcissistic sociopaths, in that they are completely self-centered, and everyone else are just pawns, and yet they understand the concepts of the social structures and hierarchies that they participate in and play their part convincingly. I have a feeling a lot of political (and perhaps some religious) leaders are like this as well. They don't necessarily believe in the ideology that they convincingly espouse, at least not as far as how it pertains to them, and find ways of justifying any behavior that advances their personal goals.
It's a sort of anti-chivalry, I think.
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Mr. Christian Henry Tobler has cross-posted on myArmoury (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=22400). Ivan is correct in that this is not dissimilar to watching a car crash or train wreck.
On a related note, I have a solid lead on a USED copy of Fighting with the German Longsword. :)
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If anyone here knows anyone in the Schola Saint George, please have them read page 4 of that thread.
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I shouldn't be surprised but in a way I am. Anyone who espouses chivalric values would take this entire series to heart. What's really a shame is that this man's customers came to him because they felt safe in dealing with him, he came highly recommended- that he should prove to be the Knave isn't bad only in the sense of doing business, but bad for the community-at-large. This guy seems to have years in the Game...and as long as it took him to build up this reputation look how quickly it tumbled.
That none of the parties involved have taken it personal (I believe Richard Blackmoore may've come closest as far as I read) and gone and beaten the man senseless goes to show the level of THEIR individual fortitude...because it sounds like this guy needs it. BAD.
Thing about it is, it happens more often than I'd thought, years ago. I've seen these same types of complaints against swordmarkers- there was a guy on SBG who'd promised these semi-custom katanas and life happened and he couldn't deliver and there was a similar outcry. It is currently happening again, this time on the Euro side of things- I haven't checked in a few months but last time I did, there were a goodly number of orders still outstanding and the delivery date is over a year out if I'm not mistaken.
It almost seems like there should be a medievally-themed BBB to handle this sort of thing. In any case, my thoughts are with all of those involved, every last one of them because if there's one thing I CAN understand- it is non-delivery of items already paid for in full. I'm having this same issue, albeit on a much smaller scale than some, and I'm really struggling with keeping things civil, because of the usual requisites, but it is not easy, especially when a job that should've taken a month at most is now nearing the one year mark and I've not had any comms in over a month, despite assurances that I'd hear within ONE WEEK.
This hobby is usually a joy for me but every now and again, it seems more like a curse.
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As far as I know, there's still talk of potential legal action on the part of the authors. This could go very badly for Mr Price, since there could be jail-time, not to mention owed remuneration, plus damages, seizure of unsold copies, and returning of publishing rights to the authors.
Let us hope that justice is served.
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It almost seems like their should be a medievally-themed BBB to handle this sort of thing. In any case, my thoughts are with all of those involved, every last one of them because if there's one thing I CAN understand- it is non-delivery of items already paid for in full. I'm having this same issue, albeit on a much smaller scale than some, and I'm really struggling with keeping things civil, because of the usual requisites, but it is not easy, especially when a job that should've taken a month at most is now nearing the one year mark and I've not had any comms in over a month, despite assurances that I'd hear within ONE WEEK.
Yeah, it's unfortunate, but any field in which a good bulk of the work is done by artists (which technically armorers and custom sword makers are) tends to have this sort of problem. People who are really good at the work often aren't good at the business side of things. Many of them make some pretty severe mistakes without ever intending to defraud their customers. Probably everyone in this hobby has a horror story about an order gone wrong, be it non-delivery, excessive delays, bad communication, poor quality, or not what was requested.
In Mr Price's case, it's gone way beyond these things, since it's his business partners he's been taking advantage of, and shows a long pattern of unethical behavior (that was well concealed at times).
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I agree...which is why I think some form of body that can protect these artisans and their customers is in order. Is the BBB going to be effective in this instance? I'm thinking that not all of these craftsmen are incorporated like a business, even though I know some are.
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Part of the problem is the "rotation" cycle for these business. At one point, it was probably a good business.
I have had never-ending issues with someone with "30 years experience" in armor who sent me something vastly different from what we agreed upon, completely dropped communication even before I got the armor, and refuses to honor a refund although he's been holding my money for over 6 months and I mailed the armor back weeks ago. The most frustrating thing? He contacted me from a thread I posted asking for references to armorers. Only 2 months before I ordered, I found good reviews of his work. Yet, it's imploded rapidly.
Same thing for some other places, such as Steel Mastery. They used to be praised and recommended, and have fallen quickly, with a few "whats going on?" threads about them.
If the same company was consistently poor, or consistently great, it would be much easier to keep up with. Seems like in the end, we're all going to be ordering mass produced off the shelf generic fit armor and clothing from India. Our options keep getting thinner, and as they do, wait times go up, craftspeople get "overbooked", then burned out, then things collapse, orders aren't filled, and we lose another one. Someone will step up to fill the gap, provide a good product, good service, good prices ... become too popular, get overbooked, burn out ... and the cycle continues. That's what I've seen in the last ~15 years of the armoring community.
But the egregious taking advantage of those who are partners or friends is a whole other issue entirely, and one that should be dealt with appropriately.
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James,
I'm so sorry. I noticed the comparison pictures you posted on AA. Frankly, I'd say you are handling the situation very well. I can turn out a breastplate like that with a my modest shop. I doubt there's much that even Allan could do to fix it.
I think you may be right concerning "burn out". Maybe Horsefriend was turning out better armour before, but he sure has fallen off his game.
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I think it is a shame...as consumers we're not initially cognizant of the demands or workload for a given individual artisan- as far as we are concerned, we paid our money we should receive our goods, end of story. That's business, cold as it sounds. I'm more likely to allow concessions for someone I do know as opposed to someone I do not- which is good in a way because the rapport's already established and I'm human like anyone else, I do understand that life happens...but in the case of this sordid affair on AA, those folks' capacity for understanding far outstrips my own. One of them has been waiting for TEN YEARS for something he commissioned, I'm like WTF is going on?
I try not to take sides but it is hard...especially when I have personal experience with something like this.
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Gah!
17 pages and still it goes!
Only good news is that it does look like the authors involved are doing the whole 'Lawyers & Courts' thing.
-Ivan
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Yes, the thread itself seems to have exploded from the depths of hell (not your fault Ivan ;) ). The sad part of the whole situation is the fact that no one wins. Brian, the authors owed royalities, the customers with defective products, the customers with money down on a project, the artists whose work has been stolen/reproduced, the SCA at large; no on wins.
Except the lawyers, they always win. (speaking of the depths of hell)
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I think there's a special place in Hell for lawyers. lol
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Wow, I stopped reading around page 11... I'll need to go back and catch up.
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Speaking of lawyers in hell reminds me of this lawyer joke:
I world renowned Evangelist dies and goes to heaven where he is given a very nice and quaint cottage to spend eternity in. He is most happy and grateful to be in heaven but a little perplexed to see a lawyer whom he had witnessed to while on earth and was eventually saved had been given a huge mansion to live in. He stopped and asked Saint Peter about how he, a devote Evangelist all his life on earth was only rewarded with a nice, although small cottage while a lawyer whom he knew had been a cheat, liar, adulterer and blasphemer before finally accepting Jesus on his deathbed was given a huge and magnificent mansion to live in...
Saint Peter replied that heaven was full of Evangelist both great and small but had only one lawyer!
:D
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LMAO
I like it.
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BTW, someone created a blog entry with a summary of a lot of what has been revealed so far:
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2011/03/more-on-ironically-named-chivalry.html (http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2011/03/more-on-ironically-named-chivalry.html)
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I'll have a gander at it...I stopped reading the other thread right around the same time you did, Sir Edward.
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Hmm.
Seems I've been offered a free book by Christian Tobler.
-Ivan
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Hmm.
Seems I've been offered a free book by Christian Tobler.
-Ivan
Rub it in why don't you. ;) I'm glad you won the bidding on The Swordsman’s Companion! :)
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http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1939658#1939658 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1939658#1939658)
Today, Brian's compensation for the armour owed to me but never delivered arrived. I have several cases of books. There are three titles present.
Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship by Christian Henry Tobler
In Service of the Duke by Christian Henry Tobler
Arte Gladiatoria: 15th century Swordsmanship of Filippo Vadi by Luca Porzio and Gregory Mele.
Brian's debt to me for this armour is settled.
I will now work with the authors to figure out what to do with them. The good news is you will soon be able to purchase them free from guilt. If anyone is looking for copies please PM or email me. Once I have gotten them to the authors we can get you the books.
BTW, "In Service of the Duke" is freakin' awesome. As I said earlier, this is as close as you're going to get to having a real period manuscript on your bookshelf. It's a full-color reproduction, leather bound on archival paper. Heirloom quality. I highly encourage people to look into it if they can afford it.
I have #459/900. It makes me mad that Christian hasn't seen a penny in royalties for this book.
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I have emailed Talbot this evening and he has already responded. I have a copy of "Secrets" and "Gladiatoria" on hold pending his conversations with the authors. "In service of the Duke" has always interested me. I have never seen a copy, but everyone who has a copy says it's outstanding! The only thing holding me back was the price although it sounds well worth the coin.
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Well Coach Pamela, may be a while before I can find a copy of that book.
This is what I get for not reading all the threads, interesting things happen and I miss them. :-)
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Sir Ancelyn, you're alive! :D
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Well Coach Pamela, may be a while before I can find a copy of that book.
This is what I get for not reading all the threads, interesting things happen and I miss them. :-)
As wonderful as the books that had been put out by CB are, I would not spend an extraordinary amount of time trying to procure a copy, especially since you can find some truly great goodies at Freelance Academy Press. I would highly recommend any of their titles.
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/
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This is the Thread that never Ends,
It goes on and on my Friends,
Ivanis Started Posting it just looking for a Book,
But now everyones complaing about what Brain Price took.
This is the Thread that never Ends,
It goes on and on my Friends,
Ivanis Started Posting just looking for a Book,
But now everyones complaing about what Brain Price took.
This is the Thread that never Ends,
It goes on and on my Friends,
Ivanis Started Posting just looking for a Book,
But now everyones complaing about what Brain Price took.
etc etc etc,
Sorry I think I channeled Lambchop for a min.
Rey
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Viscount Rey RiBeaumont, KSCA
Kingdom of Gleann Abhann
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Found at the top of page 23 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=129990&start=770). ;D ;D :D
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Fantastic!
http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/books/guiltfree.html (http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/books/guiltfree.html)
Talbot is selling the books he received from Brian Price as payment to settle his long-standing debt. He's splitting the money evenly over himself, the authors, and the Wounded Warriors Project, and is selling the books at 25% off the cover price.
This is a FANTASTIC time to get "In Service of the Duke", since the $135 price-tag is probably the cheapest you'll ever get it for, and it's putting money back into Christian Tobler's hands, who so far has not received a penny in royalties for this title.
Anyway, just thought I'd announce this here.
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Excellent News!
(edited to mention I'm talking about Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship: Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries on Liechtenauer by Christian Tobler. Sorry, I was too excited by the announcement! ;) )
Folks, don't be fooled by Amazon's $33 offer that "usually ships within 1 - 3 weeks". They are/were simply reselling Brian Price's stock of which he has none (or very little) now.
The lowest legitimate offer on Amazon for a new book is $50 plus shipping. Compare that with Talbot's $45 plus shipping and the fact that both the authors AND the Wounded Warrior's Project will be getting a cut! :)
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I just ordered myself a copy of Greg Mele's book, since that was the only one of the three in this offer that I didn't have.
Christian Tobler's "Secrets" has some portions that are out of date now, and he'll probably revise if he manages to re-publish at a later time, but it's still a good book.
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I got a copy of Spada 2 from a safe source a few days back and also just paid for a used copy of The Swordsmans Companion.
If I had the cash to I'd also get a copy of Greg Mele's book but, alas, no job yet. :(
-Ivan
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I am relieved that talbot is re-selling the books guilt free.
My take on this is Brian Price: "good teacher, bad business man" (This also has happened in the Martial Arts Community)
It's really a shame, but the good news is that Colin Hatcher one of Price's top students has recently been accepted as the new President of SSG. It seems the school will be better of without Price.
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Just a little update on this. The thread over on the AA has been locked, so no new updates will be forthcoming there.
The wikipedia page has been renamed, and someone attempted to delete the whole "controversies" section, but it's been re-added within the last few days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_R._Price (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_R._Price)
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As the instigator of all that I wonder what the final result will end up being.
-Ivan
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As the instigator of all that I wonder what the final result will end up being.
-Ivan
Even if the final result is nothing, the intermediate result of saving potentially hundreds of people from supporting unchivalrous business practices, and from having property returned to it's rightful owners, and those authors producing more materials for us through a credible source - it's been a win-win for everyone except Brian Price thus far - and that includes people who would have never seen any benefit, such as the Wounded Warriors donations.
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Even if the final result is nothing, the intermediate result of saving potentially hundreds of people from supporting unchivalrous business practices, and from having property returned to it's rightful owners, and those authors producing more materials for us through a credible source - it's been a win-win for everyone except Brian Price thus far - and that includes people who would have never seen any benefit, such as the Wounded Warriors donations.
I agree with you on that. And as previously stated, Schola Saint George has a new Board of Directors headed by Colin Hatcher. I am confident that the future of Schola Saint George is in good hands.
In terms of Revival US, if Hatcher would to take over the company and get it back on it's feet in terms of paying due royalties and providing real customer satisfaction (the same goes for Chivalry Bookshelf), that would be the day I would raid both companies with massive orders of armour, books and equipment. Until that day, all hands to other safe vendors.