ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2008-02-29, 21:33:13
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I've been trying to draw up the dragon part of my heraldry. This is just a rough draft, I already see lots of spots that need major tweaking, but what do you think so far?
(http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/dragonlogo00.gif)
I'm aiming for a "dragon couchant", which means seated with all four limbs (laying down essentially), with head raised and alert, and tail curled under.
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As a modern piece, I think it looks great. If you are going for something more medieval, though, the head looks a little strange to me. It reminds me more of a modern fantasty dragon than a historical fantasy dragon, if that makes any sense.
A lot of medieval dragon's have a somewhat bird/dog like look to the face, kind of like a rooster with somewhat of a nose. There's a lot of variation, of course, and I'm sure you can probably find images that look along the lines of your heraldry here, but there's something "off" about it to me, coming from a medievalesque stand point.
Here's an example to show what I mean:
http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast262.htm
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Yep, you're absolutely right. The head is one of the parts that I'm still working on. Right now it looks like a big watermelon to me. :) I haven't completely decided if I'm going more historically correct or more modern. I'm already fudging it a little by having the "crux ansata" in in the CoA. Here's the design so far:
(http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/final_sinister_225px.gif)
And the full explanation I've written up:
http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html (http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html)
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Hey, that looks great! I also very much liked the description behind the symbolism.
By the way, I forgot the mention that I really like the "dragon couchant" idea. It reminds me of many of the 14th century funeries with the dogs watching at their masters' feet.
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Thanks, glad you like it. :)
The graphic that I have for the dragon on the shield design is one I found online, turned blue, and pasted in. I started using it as a placeholder before I had decided what position I wanted the dragon to be in, and the more I looked at it and thought about it, the more I liked the "couchant" position. I see it much as you do... at rest, but vigilant. A lot of the time you see arms done with the beasts having a "rampant" or "passant", but there are many more options of course.
I found a nice description of beast positions (though I hate the annoying pop-up ads):
http://dragon_azure.tripod.com/UoA/AnimalBlazonry.html (http://dragon_azure.tripod.com/UoA/AnimalBlazonry.html)
According to this page mine has a mistake in that I'm leaving the tail pointed forward instead of up behind the back. But I don't care. :)
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(http://dragon_azure.tripod.com/images/Image23.gif) ahhhhhhhhhhh its the chathulu heraldry
very impressive sir Edward. very nice indeed.
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Well, I have a dragon that might work for the crest. Sir Brian suggested it to me, and it got here yesterday.
I don't have anything ready for mounting it... I'll probably try to attach it to a piece of plywood, paint it up in my colors, and mount it with the fabric mantle hiding the plywood base. We'll see how it works out.
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2008/weapons/a2075.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2008/weapons/a2075b.jpg)
(click for zoom)
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Wow! That did work out quite well didn't? Just the right size and
with a great posture.
Rosemary helped me put the finishing touches on the ends of my torse.
I wanted to do something about hiding the knots that kept the two pieces
of the torse joined.
What do you all think?
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/Helm_002.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/Helm_001.jpg)
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That looks pretty good. It looks like you have some gold edging on those pieces, that's a nice accent. I've been trying to think about what to do with mine when I get to that stage too. I like the idea of having "tails" of some kind, and I may try to make the mantle hang down a good ways too.
Can't wait to wow the crowds at faire this year. :)
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I used some of the leftover material that I made the torse with and wanted a ragged edge or frayed
appearance on the edges, thing is that particular material frays very easily but doesn't STOP fraying!
:(
So I used gold metallic thread to hopefully stop if from fraying too much.
Oh and here is a link for you.
http://www.decalpaper.com/ (http://www.decalpaper.com/)
Why do you need decal paper you ask? - For your Ailettes of course! You can't just have them
painted you know! They were small replicas of the CoA, including the charges! ;)
~ Ah the devil is in the details! :D
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Decal paper! Oh crap, now I need a color printer... :)
Well, I'm still tweaking the dragon design. Cleaned up some of the lines, adjusted some curves, stretched the wings back more, and shaped the head a little. Looks like I'm going for more of a modern fantasy dragon.
(http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/dragonlogo00.gif) (http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/dragonlogo01.gif) (http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/dragonlogo02.gif)
Showing both stages for comparison.
And this is a vector design, so I'll be able to scale it as much as I want and print it out to make stencils etc.
EDIT: Added another minor revision. Adjusted the back/collarbone area, raised the shoulder, tweaked the wings, smoothed the curvature of the tail loop.
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Oh yeah! You are really getting it now. That looks great!
EDIT:
When you get the decal paper (and the color printer ;) ), make
sure you pickup some "SolvaSet" at practically any hobby shop.
It's about $3.00 for a 2oz bottle, which is far more than you'll
ever use. What it does is actually melt the decal into the surface
of what it is on.
I'll test it for you on a piece of metal that is painted with the same epoxy
paint to make sure it doesn't affect the epoxy finish. You will not be able
to tell it was ever a decal after this stuff does its thing. ;)
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Well forget the "SolvaSet" stuff! It does not react well to the epoxy based paint.
Made the test decal look much worse than the decal by itself. :-\
Your shield btw, only needs the blue field added and will be done. I'll probably be
able to ship it back to you by this weekend.
One thing I noticed though is the location of the bolts securing the hand strap is
dead center of the white field. You will have a bothersome time I'm afraid of getting
your dragon charge stenciled on that. I highly recommend you use that cream based
paint I told you about in one of my old e-mails. Since it takes a good 24 hours for that
particular paint to set it will be forgiving enough to wipe clean off if you mess up the first
couple of times. To clean the stenciling paint off from the epoxy based shield paint, do
NOT use anything stronger than rubbing alcohol or mineral spirits. Thinners could dull the
epoxy finish. ;)
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OK, that's good to know, I'll keep the thinners in mind. Yeah, working around those bolts will be interesting. Worst case scenario is that I paint right over them and put up with it. But I'll play with the positioning a bit.
Thanks again for helping out with the shield! I can't wait to see it.
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Well here is a sneak preview of an Ailette. I hope it won't spoil your grand
unveiling later when you post pictures of the finished shield and Ailettes. :-\
Is the shade of blue okay?
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/Ailette.jpg)
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Sweet, that's really nicely done. Generally I go for deeper blues, but it'll certainly work! I just don't like "in your face" bright colors, so it's looking great.
I just realized, the ailettes will be really handy for taking to the store to match up paint colors for the shield. :)
Oh, speaking of deep blues, this is the sort of color I'll have on my custom sword when it's done: http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fletcher/Custom_Sword_Gallery/Pages/AT-1501.html#0 (http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fletcher/Custom_Sword_Gallery/Pages/AT-1501.html#0) (this is the one from Christian Fletcher's site that I used as a reference when placing my order)
Thankfully the dragon design is coming along... but I just realized... I need to make a sword template too. Crap. :)
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Thankfully the dragon design is coming along... but I just realized... I need to make a sword template too. Crap. :)
uh oh! Man I really hate to add more to you...but you have to do the ankh as well! ;)
If that blue isn't deep enough for your needs, you can paint on top of the epoxy. It doesn't
matter if its acrylic, enamel...It works on that stuff. You should go for at least a semi-gloss
finish so it matches the same reflective aspects of the black and white. The painter recommends
using a flat finish on the charges for the contrast. The pictures kind of shows this a little. Notice
that even though the charges are done in a flat finish, they contrast well upon the gloss finish of
the shield itself.
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Thankfully the dragon design is coming along... but I just realized... I need to make a sword template too. Crap. :)
uh oh! Man I really hate to add more to you...but you have to do the ankh as well! ;)
Actually I'm not worried about the ankh. I have a graphic that I can scale up well enough that it should work, and if not, I can trace the one I have on wooden book cover which is about the right size for the shield.
I know what you mean about the contrast. I'll see how it all looks when it gets here; you're right, I could paint over the blue. I'm thinking that once I have the charges painted on, I might go over the whole thing with a clear coat, which has the unfortunate side effect of giving everything the same sheen. But I think acrylic paints and the like will need the extra protective layer.
Man, those pictures are awesome. We're gonna knock em dead even more this year.
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A trick I learned with sealing my charges after I painted them was to put the stencil back
on and tape paper all around it so when I sprayed the sealer over the acrylic paint of the
charge I didn't dull the epoxy finish. :)
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(http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/dragonlogo00.gif) (http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/dragonlogo01.gif) (http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/dragonlogo02.gif)
I think I'm starting to get satisfied with it. I made more tweaks, and it's looking really good. Any suggestions for further improvements?
(http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/dragonlogo03.gif)
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I think you've got a winner there! Not sure if you can improve upon
perfection! ;)
...Of course the real test will be cutting the stencil out! (I always sucked
@ that part!) :-[
btw Sir Edward your shield is in the mail! I sent it the same method
you sent it to me...except it weighs a bit more because of the paint and
the Ailetts. I also included a painted aluminum plate so you can practice
your stenciling technique. The painter also wanted to relay to you that
if you wanted to paint over the blue epoxy, you should rough it up a little
by sanding it with some 200 - 240 grit sandpaper.
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You're right, cutting it out will be interesting. I'm planning to do very careful cutting with an xacto knife.
Awesome about the shield! Thanks again for helping out with this. Let me know what the shipping was, I'll send a check with the business cards.
I'll keep the sandpaper in mind. That's the mistake I've always made in the past is not roughing up surfaces... then I wonder why the paint flakes off so easily. I've only recently started to get that through my thick skull. :)
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I think that looks great, Ed! And the head no longer looks like it should be vs. Predator. ;)
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Awesome about the shield! Thanks again for helping out with this. Let me know what the shipping was, I'll send a check with the business cards.
My pleasure and don't worry about it...buy me a couple of beers @ MDRF! ;D
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I think that looks great, Ed! And the head no longer looks like it should be vs. Predator. ;)
Hahah, I hadn't made that connection. It looked more like a watermelon seed to me. :)
And Brian, you're on!
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The shield got here yesterday. You guys did a great job on it! Man, I gotta get cracking on the rest of the stencil designs.
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Was the shade of blue ok?
Oh and don't forget to pick up some stencil adhesive...It will make you're stenciling
life a LOT easier! ;)
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The blue looks pretty good, but I haven't decided if I want to paint over it or not. I may try for a deeper color, but I'll look and see what's available. I'm being really indecisive because it looks very nice as it is. :)
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i thought it looked great
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I think I need to take it outside and look at it in the sun. The lighting in my house sucks and I haven't had a chance to play with it all weekend! :)
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Well, I decided I like the blue and will keep it. I went to Michael's and color-matched it. The "Azure Blue" is the closest match, so I bought some of that in acrylic and enamel to experiment. Also got some other blues to mix in if I want to tweak it a little. Also got some stencil material and adhesive. I'll post pics once I get a chance to actually get started on the painting.
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Good luck and go carefully! Use that green painted plate I sent with
you shield for a few practice runs! ;)
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I tried some of the paints I picked up just to see how smoothly they apply on that green plate. It's interesting, it's fairly transparent. I may have to paint several coats or something.
I tried cutting out the stencil using plastic stencil material. The edges may be slightly more rough than I was hoping. Hopefully it'll work out OK! :)
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Did you try any of those cream type of paints? Michaels has some paints that are thicker
than hand cream and you can apply them with a stiff bristled brush. The paint takes 24
hours to dry and will actually have a slightly textured flat finish. It's what I used on my
shield charges and it worked great in a single coat and it doesn't run under the stencil.
Here is two products you absolutely MUST have for the best results!
Stencil Adhesive:
http://www.michaels.com/art/online/displayProductPage?productNum=cp0173 (http://www.michaels.com/art/online/displayProductPage?productNum=cp0173)
Stencil Paint Crème:
http://www.michaels.com/art/online/displayProductPage?productNum=cp0162 (http://www.michaels.com/art/online/displayProductPage?productNum=cp0162)
I just realized I may have told you previously that they were acrylic based instead of oil-based.
Sorry if that caused you some confusion! :-[
Seriously try that creme paint...You will be much happy with the control of the paint.
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OK, I'll go back and look for those. I bought some of this:
http://www.michaels.com/art/online/displayProductPage?productNum=cp0027 (http://www.michaels.com/art/online/displayProductPage?productNum=cp0027)
They have lots of acrylics in their paint aisle. These were in a different aisle, and marked as "enamel", though they're still water-based acrylics. I bought both, and sure enough the plain acrylic is too watery and slides around on the test surface. The "enamel" versions stick well, but go on semi-transparent and it's hard to get it on evenly.
So I'll definitely try the cream stuff if I can find it.
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How about an update on your progress Sir Edward?
Yes I'm impatient and anxious to see how the stencils worked out! ;D
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Heh, I got distracted for the last week by the droid project. :) I did however get some more rings clipped out and ready for the final push to finish out the length of my hauberk. I'm going to be spending some time this weekend catching up on projects, though, so hopefully I'll be able to make some progress on the shield. I can try the dragon stencil I cut out, but I'll still need to make them for the sword and ankh. For the ankh, I have one I can trace that's about the right size. The sword will need to be designed, but that's a simpler object than a dragon. :)
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Are you going to apply your charges onto your surcoat as well?
If so then Michaels also has some good fabric paints as well.
Just reuse the stencils from your shield. The sponge type of
applicator worked best for me when I stenciled fabric. ;)
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I probably will at some point, but I want to make some more surcoats first. I may try to match the color a little more with the fabric, I just haven't decided yet.
I just got done designing my sword, so now I need to transfer that and the ankh to stencil form.
Updated my CoA with the new graphics and colors:
(http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/ed-coa02_225px.gif)
Original version with place-holder graphics, for comparison:
(http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/final_sinister_225px.gif)
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Oh yeah! Now your talking! That looks great!
Man MDRF can't get here fast enough! ;)
But I know you need the time to finish with all your other
projects! - I'm actually out of projects at the moment and
envy you your business! :)
Ah well maybe it is time for me to get back into
painting miniatures! :-\
Great job on the COA.
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Thanks, glad you like it. :) I didn't get the stencils done this weekend, so it may end up waiting til after I get back from NCRF. I don't want to rush it. But I did manage to replace the strap on the shield with one with a buckle, so I can at least wear it with my colors and not have it hang down over my butt instead of up on my back. :)
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Status update if you please Sir Ed!
How is your Shield coming along?
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Well, I haven't had much time for projects in general, so the droid, shield, chausses, etc, are all sort of stagnating this month.
However, I went through the preliminary registering of my heraldry while I was at Pennsic (as I said in another thread, mostly just to help protect the uniqueness, so at least I won't see someone else in the SCA crowd using it).
So now I definitely want to get back to work on painting the charges. I've got some stenciling to do! And MDRF is rapidly approaching. Time to buckle down and get to work.
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Not to (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/WebFun/whip.gif) or anything like that, but how's the charges coming on the shield?
I only ask because that creme based paint takes a good 24 hours to dry and the weekend
is rapidly approaching! ;)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/MDRF/08-MDRF-wk1/08MDRF_037.jpg)
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Yeah, I was thinking about working on it last night, but got sidetracked by assembling my new workbench and repairing my crossbow (it shook itself apart a bit at Pennsic). Maybe Thursday I'll get cracking on that some more. It's the dragon part that scares me, since I need to try to mix paints to approximate the color, and it's a very detailed little design! :)
But it'll be nice to not have people assuming it's the Estonian flag on my back. :) That's happened twice now.
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Well, looks like I'm going to work on one charge at a time. I started on the sword tonight, but the paint is going on a little more thin than I'd like, so I need to let it dry and do another coat tomorrow evening.
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2008/weapons/a2342.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2008/weapons/a2342b.jpg)
EDIT: I wasn't happy with how the paint was applying, so I decided to grab a can of spray-paint and give that a shot, at least for the sword anyway. :) The cream paint comes off really easily with rubbing alcohol.
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2008/weapons/a2343.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2008/weapons/a2343b.jpg)
I had to do a little touch-up with the x-acto knife to clean up the paint edges, but once it dries I should be able to go back and use the stencil again for a clear-coat.
EDIT: Photos are now clicky
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WOW! That looks great! Well done! Yes definately apply a clear coat or two for
protection...you don't want to have to reapply every other outing you go on! ;)
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Yeah, I figure no matter what type of paint I use, scratches will happen. :) I'll look for some enamels to use as touch-ups.. Testors model paints may work well.
If I can make the stencil stick flat for the dragon, this may solve the color problem. I have a really good blue spray (the one I used for the crest), but the cremes are all way off.
The thing I didn't do was prime first on the sword. I have a white primer... maybe I should have done the first coat with that. Ah well.. maybe for the ankh. :)
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Y are you trying to kill Estonia? that sword on the flag means death to us waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hehehe
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Guess what?
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2008/weapons/a2345.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2008/weapons/a2345b.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/ed-coa02_225px.gif)
:) :) :) :) :)
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wow that is awesome
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It's even better in person! Bravo Ed and well done!
Well done indeed! ;D
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Thank you muchly! It's been a long, long road. :)
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At Pennsic last year, I registered my heraldry with the SCA heralds, to help protect the uniqueness. Well, I just got a letter this week that it's been accepted and is official! (it takes them this long, yes, since they have to review it against all other registered heraldry, etc).
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Huzzah! Congratulations Sir Edward! ;D
Alas I must change mine if I ever hope to get it accepted by the SCA...
...Naw, too much damn work to change the shield and surcoat! ;)
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The fellow who is making my banner/gonfalon sent me this progress pic:
(http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/heraldry/edtfinalpaint_609.gif)
Looking good!
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wow cool.
now are you gonna carry that to faire or just to have it?
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At home mostly, but we can hang it up at our encampment at events such as Pennsic. Carrying it around faire would be cool, but man, a helmet AND a standard? Might be a bit much. I'd need my own peasant to carry it for me, I think.
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As long as you keep them repressed! We do have standards you know! :D
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I guess I also need a moistened bint to lob a scimitar at me to make me king. :)
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and remember not to get SH%$ all over yourself
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Banner is here!
With and without flash:
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2009/weapons/b0761.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2009/weapons/b0759.jpg)
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awesome
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SWEET! That looks great!