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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Ian on 2014-02-06, 23:04:11
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So, it was suggested to me to add a pisan to my kit (a maille standard if you speak 15th c :) ). This is worn in addition to the bascinet/aventail combination, providing a double layer of padded maille around the throat. I guess they felt it was important to protect that area in the Middle Ages ;-)
These things appear all over inventories of the 14th century in conjunction with aventails, so it is very appropriate to have. I decided to make this one as 'authentically' as I could. I bought the maille (not even going to contemplate forging wire...) from icefalcon, it's flat-ring wedge-riveted. I then constructed a linen liner for this, and hand stitched everything on it including the quilting. It's lightly padded with cotton on the inside. Then I whipstitched the maille to the linen liner using waxed-linen thread. And thence added the vegetable tanned leather edging along the top edge and sewed it all together.
Currently it only ties together in the back with leather thongs, but I will add leather straps/buckles at some point, but wanted to get done what I could for now:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/12352539714_40db47d96c_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/12352258993_ca1ce5e197_z.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3820/12352539294_000243e005_z.jpg)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2840/12352258823_a9ee88f679_z.jpg)
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Wow! Very nice indeed!
How does all that padding feel when you move your neck around? Does it dig into the ol' Adam's apple or anything?
And kind of off-topic, but where did you get your leather?
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When a man needs leather, he takes his bow and knife, and makes way into the wood.
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Wow, awesome!
I, on the other hand, cheated and instead hired Fuhlen Designs to do the work. ;)
Here's how mine turned out (clicky):
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2014/weapons/b5922.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2014/weapons/b5922b.jpg)
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2014/weapons/b5923.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2014/weapons/b5923b.jpg)
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2014/weapons/b5924.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2014/weapons/b5924b.jpg)
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2014/weapons/b5925.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2014/weapons/b5925b.jpg)
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Doug, the liner feels fine against the neck. It feels infinitely better than maille would against my skin. I don't have a super-prominent adam's apple, but I don't think it would matter. It's got enough cushion that I don't think it will bother you. I didn't notice any pressure there. I'll report back when I've worn this thing for several hours on end though.
The leather is a 3/4 oz vegetable tanned double shoulder I got from Tandy. It's the same piece I plan to make the uppers of my shoes from. I've also got a 9/10 oz double shoulder sitting around for the soles.
And Sir Ed, Jessica as always does nice work!
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super nice! i do love standards. they help complete the look
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Very nice! Mine looks immensely modern in comparison. I need to get a few pics of it to really highlight how nicely yours turned out. I never got around to making a better one. Nicky Hughes on DoK was asking about one a while back.. maybe even last year? Tag him on the Book of Faces, he may still be interested in seeing it.
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I have a nice riveted mail standard purchased second hand from Sir Edward a LONG time ago just sitting in my workshop waiting for me to do some sewing.
Time to get off my butt and join the cool kids.
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Is this worn in addition to a gorget and/or aventail? Looking at Sir Ian's avatar, I don't see how you'd ever notice the pisan under the helm and aventail.
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Is this worn in addition to a gorget and/or aventail? Looking at Sir Ian's avatar, I don't see how you'd ever notice the pisan under the helm and aventail.
Not with a gorget, as this is really a gorget in itself, just made of mail. But yes, they can be worn under the aventail, or with a sallet+bevor (for instance) in the 15th.
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I like the look of it; very nice, Sir Ian.
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Is this worn in addition to a gorget and/or aventail? Looking at Sir Ian's avatar, I don't see how you'd ever notice the pisan under the helm and aventail.
Not with a gorget, as this is really a gorget in itself, just made of mail. But yes, they can be worn under the aventail, or with a sallet+bevor (for instance) in the 15th.
Yep. Question was asked and answered on the Book of Faces. Were Sir William there also to see it..... ;)
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it seems a bit redundant if you have an aventail with a padded liner (that goes out beyond the helm itself). I can see how it would help protect against an attack where a simple aventail wouldnt work.
Not sure if you can see but this one has padding underneath it.
(http://wolna.kompania.freshsite.pl/grunwald2006/22_grunwaldSp06.jpg)
Basically if you have the right type of liner and sewed the end of the aventail to the liner like in the pic above, would you ever use a pisan?
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Great work as always, Sir Ian. Feeling inspired...
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At first I thought this was about something Italian from Pisa.
Then I saw da awesome. :)
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Is this worn in addition to a gorget and/or aventail? Looking at Sir Ian's avatar, I don't see how you'd ever notice the pisan under the helm and aventail.
Sir William, the pisan is worn in addition to an aventail and functions as a gorget. Rigid neck defense wouldn't really be a thing until Agincourt era as it was attached to Great Bascinets in place of an aventail. As a stand-alone piece of rigid armor for the throat it wouldn't really be a thing until much later. The true 'gorget' that must people think of when they hear the word is a 16th century invention. There only 'gorget' style armor worn before 1415 is just maille, and then through most of the 15th it was the bevor with a sallet, or the wrapper on an armet, or just a maille standard.
it seems a bit redundant if you have an aventail with a padded liner (that goes out beyond the helm itself). I can see how it would help protect against an attack where a simple aventail wouldnt work.
Basically if you have the right type of liner and sewed the end of the aventail to the liner like in the pic above, would you ever use a pisan?
Belemrys, my bascinet's aventail has a sewed in padded liner just like the picture you linked. Yes, you would definitely still want a pisan. The aventail does not protect from thrusts that originate underneath the level of the aventail hem. The pisan can be worn under the top of the breastplate. So you can imagine that if an errant blade were to skip off the top of the breastplate and underneath the aventail, the pisan is still there to hopefully prevent penetration of the throat. The top of the breastplate acts as a means to pin it down, ensuring that nothing can get to your throat without going through it first.
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Shamelessly plugging an awesome picture that Sir Ian took of me last year at VARF, but it shows how the mail standard/pisan tucks into the rest of the armor. Mine is tucked into a yoke (gorget with no vertical lames) but the effect when tucked in a breast plate is the same. Note that there is no excess hanging out / flopping, as an aventail has.
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1/1005044_10201223457926133_150107887_n.jpg)
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I definitely need to get myself one.
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That is an awesome shot, Sir James (nicely done Sir Ian).
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it seems a bit redundant if you have an aventail with a padded liner (that goes out beyond the helm itself). I can see how it would help protect against an attack where a simple aventail wouldnt work.
Basically if you have the right type of liner and sewed the end of the aventail to the liner like in the pic above, would you ever use a pisan?
Belemrys, my bascinet's aventail has a sewed in padded liner just like the picture you linked. Yes, you would definitely still want a pisan. The aventail does not protect from thrusts that originate underneath the level of the aventail hem. The pisan can be worn under the top of the breastplate. So you can imagine that if an errant blade were to skip off the top of the breastplate and underneath the aventail, the pisan is still there to hopefully prevent penetration of the throat. The top of the breastplate acts as a means to pin it down, ensuring that nothing can get to your throat without going through it first.
Makes perfect sense to me! Thanks! I wonder if the SCA would find that to be appropriate replacement over a proper Gorget...probably if the padding was thick enough...how did you tailor the mail? just got squares or do they come premade?
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I think the SCA requires a rigid defense. You could certainly hide a rigid plate inside of maille.
The maille itself required no tailoring, but it will definitely not fit anyone with a bigger neck. I lucked out that it fit out of the box, that's rare.
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Is this worn in addition to a gorget and/or aventail? Looking at Sir Ian's avatar, I don't see how you'd ever notice the pisan under the helm and aventail.
I currently wear a butted mail standard under my bascinet & aventail. My standard hides a padded heavy leather “dog collar” gorget.
I’ve seen the SCA rules regarding neck armour interpreted many different ways over the years by many different Marshals. To alleviate any potential problems during armour inspections, I tend to play it safe.
With the combo of bascinet, unpadded mail aventail, mail standard, hidden leather collar, and quilted padding, I’ve never had my armour bounced (plus it looks good ;) ).
VI. ARMOR REQUIREMENTS
D. Neck Armor
The neck, including the larynx, cervical vertebrae, and first thoracic vertebra must be covered by one or a combination of the following and must stay covered during typical combat situations, including turning the head, lifting the chin, etc.:
1. The helm
2. A gorget of rigid material
3. A mail or heavy leather camail or aventail that hangs or drapes to absorb the force of a blow. If the camail or aventail lays in contact with the larynx, cervical vertebrae, or first thoracic vertebra, that section must be padded with a minimum of .25 inch (6mm) of closed cell foam or equivalent
4. A collar of heavy leather lined with a minimum of .2 5in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent.
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This seems like a fun project so I started making one today using some left over 9mm wedge riveted maille and scraps of linen and leather I had laying around. I'll post pics once I get the maille woven together, just looks like a pile of ring strips right now.
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Very nice work Ian. :) I love the details.
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I made a butted mail standard some time ago and received quite a bit of help and advice from David Teague, Bill Grandy, Sir Wolf and others in this myArmoury thread:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20262 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20262)
I just realized that I never posted a picture of the final product. ???
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(http://www.historiclife.com/images/LordGreys/MTA05/full/PICT0016.jpg)
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Sir Wolf, how does yours fasten in the back?
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2 buckles that i sewed onto leather and sewed the straps onto the mail.
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If anyone would like to post a pic of how your fastening looks that would be helpful to us making these. The fastening method seems the trickiest part. I imagine for 14th century under an aventail you wouldn't want buckles, but later you might.
Sirs Iran and James do yours lace or buckle?
Scott
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At first it laced, now it buckles, neither made a difference with the helmet / aventail on over it.