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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: B. Patricius on 2013-05-29, 22:59:24
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Introduction:
Greetings all!
I know plenty of people have wondered, pondered, and tried a bit at making riveted mail. For me, I don't know why, but it's one of my favorite types of armor and time period. So, I need some :D
I've decided that here, I'm going to keep a journal of my journey in mailing. Also, I'm hoping this can become a sort of future reference for anyone else interested in this medieval craft.
I've made some mail pieces before, mainly a nice Gallowglass coif with the hexagonal mantle. But it was your textbook homebrew of 16ga galvanized fencing wire, and butted.
So, in the Adrian Empire, if I don't want to wear plate, they require us to wear mail, for the very properties that it's good for. Worst case scenario, I may in fact need to depend on this mail to keep me safe from harm if the worst should happen and a weapon breaks. Needless to say, I'm totally jazzed about this!
I've always had a goal of making my own mail, now I have the motivation of a deadline. Realistically, I have about 6 to 9 months to get all this woven so I'm ready for rebated combat.
Let me know if anyone would like me to post links to all the resources I have found, via Arador, ArmourArchive, MAILE, and other resources.
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Day 1: planning
10 rings = 5/8" of coil
soft annealed rebar wire 16ga at Home Depot is 3.98 for 400 ft and 3.5lbs
5/16" ID ring is 1020 per pound
5/16" ID ring is 1691 per square feet
16 2/3 square feet of mail to make my hauberk
28180 rings
27 2/3 lbs for the hauberk
5 square feet of mail for my half chausses
8284 rings
8 lbs
it costs us 1/10th the money for making the rings ourselves vs key chain links
$32 for rebar vs $320 for key chain links
it costs us 4/25th the money for making the rings ourselves vs TheRingLord.com
$32 for rebar vs $200 for TheRingLord rings
we need 11 orders of the rebar wire, so 4400 ft total
9 rings per linear foot of wire
10 rings is 5/8" of coil
MATERIALS/TOOLS LIST:
bolt to flatten ring with 3/4" dia bolt head
MORE 4" CHANNEL LOCK/VISE GRIPS
some kind of punch, either drift, pliers, etc for making the hole for the rivet
masonry nails 3.5" long for punching
19ga "wire nails" - I'm guessing 1/2" long finishing nails are it
setting-pliers
anvil of some kind
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Day 2: purchasing materials
what I already had in my possession
4 - 4" taskforce locking pliers
$1.98 each - Lowes *got these babies on sale, 4 four a dollar!
my wire loom -
5/16" welding rod used as my dowel
don't remember and can't find it online, so I'll post this up when I end up back at a hardware store :D
1 - 4' piece of 1"x4" oak cut and built to hold my dowel
So, went to Home Depot and TrueValue today and picked up some materials for my mail. I'm also hoping to keep track of all funds used in this craft, including specific specialty tools that won't be used for other crafty things.
4 - 3.5lb rolls of 16.5ga annealed rebar wire -
$12 total excluding tax - HomeDepot
1 - 1/16" pin punch for making the holes for my rivets, we'll see how this holds up -
$5 excluding tax - TrueValue
1 - 3" by 3/4" diameter bolt for smashing with :D
$.25 excluding tax - HomeDepot
1 - Eastwing "Surestrike" 5oz tack hammer
$7 excluding tax - HomeDepot
so about $25 total thus far
also, of note, I gotta say those little 4" locking pliers are by far the best little things mailers can buy.
When you tighten them down, they multiply your grip strength and make it way easier to weave the chain.
They're also a very safe and effective method of squishing and overlapping the rings for making the rivet spot!
extra tools I employ:
Bernzomatic torch
4lb sledge
12oz ball peen hammer
and currently I'm shopping around for an anvil of some sort. Unfortunately Murphy's law came into effect today. TrueValue sells railroad ties for $2 per foot, but come in a 8 foot minimum length! yeah, so I'm looking around.
Also, I found this baby
http://www.micromark.com/power-punch-tool-kit,7775.html (http://www.micromark.com/power-punch-tool-kit,7775.html)
(http://www.micromark.com/RS/SR/Product/81530_R.jpg) which may become the greatest little tool for punching the holes in my chain.
Also, if I may ask a favor of everyone. If by chance you could link to some good HD pictures of period maile, that'd be super. Since I'm making these myself, I'm going to go as close as I can to getting it right, if I'm capable. I'll be on the lookout for this too.
Cheers, and hope everyone is enjoying faire season and staying safe enough with their practices, tournaments, competitions, and training. Sir James, congrats on the 15minutes of fame over on the local news channel! That's awesome bud!
I've got some maile to make.
YIS B. Patricius
PS: also, I need to make a shout out to my lady B)
she bought literally everything on these lists thus far. She's so supportive of this endeavor and is having a blast helping me when I let her. Beyond that, she made a smart funny little comment today: "Consider this your early Father's Day present."
I'm humbled. Her daughter is not mine, but I love her dearly as any father could. I've also known my lady since four days after her little half-pint's conception. So I've been there since the beginning. Half-pint loves hanging out with me, since I'm the one watching her while Momma works full time, watching me make mail, as she makes stuff with her duplos while we watch My Little Pony or listen to some good tunes like Sir Edward posted with "Two Steps from Hell."
Could a Knight ask for more?
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Patricius, you have my admiration, sir. Thanks for all the details thus far; it really helps to see just how much planning goes into a project like this. I can't wait to see some photos of the work in progress. :)
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Day 2:
life has a funny way of getting in the way sometimes :D so I didn't get much done, but I got plenty of "timing" done for all this. I figure this may be helpful to anyone else wanting to decide amount of money versus time and effort:
all measurements come with a standard of:
5/16" dowel
16.5 gauge annealed rebar wire
as I said before 1 feet of wire makes about 5/8" of coil on a 5/16" dowel
5/8" of coil made about 9 rings... well, I was wrong, by quite a bit in a long run type of measuring
good news 1/2" of coil makes 10 rings, even! so that is easy for future math
I made 40 inches of coil and cut them into rings in about an hour. This was about 64 feet of wire. I'm basing that off of math, not measuring out the wire as I go.
so, what did I make in about an hour :D
I made give or take 800 rings in an hour.
now, TheRingLord http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=25&cat=Machine+Cut+Mild+Steel+Jump+Rings (http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=25&cat=Machine+Cut+Mild+Steel+Jump+Rings)
sells their mild steel 5/16" 16ga rings for $7.70 for 1 pound, at 1020 rings or so per pound.
taking into consideration that I made only 800 in an hour, I'm "working" at about $6 per hour coiling and making rings! That doesn't even consider the fact that when you start buying bulk at TheRingLord, you get discounts. My 40 pounds of rings for my hauberk and chausses would have cost $262 plus tax and shipping, so figure probably about $300 total.
So, is it practical for me, to make my own rings? :o
Yes. 8) because I'm cheap ::) and crazy.
Actually in reality it's more that I enjoy the whole process, and that I'm making this kit completely from scratch, myself. That to me is priceless.
Better news, believe it or not, I'm working more efficiently than I thought I would. 800 rings is about 75% of a pound. So, if I make 800 rings in an hour, that's 12 ounces of ring an hour.
40X16= 640 ounces
640 onces divided by 12 ounces an hour = 54 hours.... so in reality terms for someone self-employed, it's about a standard work-week or less. With me watching the half-pint 40 hours a week, I should have all my rings made in about two weeks, because let's face it, she's priority and I don't get much dedicated time 8)
but her, and the cat messing with me, while watching My Little Pony marathons: priceless
It's also going to be nice that for less than $100 or so, I'll have my full hauberk and chausses. It just takes some time
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Sounds like a busy endeavour. Can't wait to see the final product. :)
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Thanks for the warm words of encouragement Lord Dane :D I certainly hope it will be going a bit faster than I first thought given what I learned yesterday about my coiling speed. Believe it or not, that was the part that concerned me the most. It just seems to take forever!
And what am I doing today?
Day 3:
still coiling some wire, making some rings 8)
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I'm posting this over at MyArmoury as well, but what I'm wondering is if anyone knows when hauberks and such became all riveted versus riveted with punched rings? My kit is going to have to be all riveted because of the lack of attaining a good punched ring for a price I can succumb to. I'm just wondering how inaccurate it will be being full riveted?
Also, http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail.htm#sect3-1 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail.htm#sect3-1) "A Mailmaker's Guide" is very cool at showing period mail pieces and how certain ones were made. I've gotten quite good at reading mail patterns for expansions and such, and I'm wondering if anyone knows of a good source/extant example that someone has had the pleasure to look over and give a pattern to like his from the Wallace Collection, or if that's the best for what I'm doing?
thanks
YIS
B. Patricius
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My understanding is that punched rings came later in the period. I think if you're going for 14th C. and earlier, all riveted is just fine.
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you know, ice falcon just got a shipment in of alt row riveted hauberks instock lol
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you know, ice falcon just got a shipment in of alt row riveted hauberks instock lol
Yeah, they're discounted too because he apparently received them by accident.
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you know, ice falcon just got a shipment in of alt row riveted hauberks instock lol
Yeah, they're discounted too because he apparently received them by accident.
Are y'all trying to tell me something? ;D Also, no offense to Ice, or Erik D Schmid, but I've seen some of the mail up close from India, and I'm not impressed with it. There's always room for improvement, and I think they have quite a bit of improving still to go.
it would be quicker if I could just purchase the mail, but expensive still, especially in comparison to what I've found in my research. I'd rather have that money go to other things I can't make, like my helm, swords, etc. Plus, this is actually homework :o I know depending on y'all's personal taste, this might be worse than doing business accounting or macro-economics, but for me, I think it's a blast! Hence why I'm keeping a log here, I want to keep track of my progress and have a journal of sorts to revert back to when I start writing my paper. ;) So, it would be quicker to go to Ice, but I also think in the academia world, since I've already told my professor I'm making as much of the kit as I can myself, it would also be construed as cheating. At least to me. I know how to make mail, and it's fun and enjoyable for me. It's also nice that the money I'm saving can go towards one of my swords ;D
My understanding is that punched rings came later in the period. I think if you're going for 14th C. and earlier, all riveted is just fine.
thanks for that. It's funny, but everywhere I've gone and researched, there doesn't seem to be a definite "they did it this way only" sort of deal when it comes to mail. I know the ancient Romans used punch rings, and there's some theories that continued up through the Crusades Era, but all we really have of extant evidence is a hunk of metal that definitely can't be closer examined without risk:
http://www.djurfeldt.com/patrik/kungslena.html (http://www.djurfeldt.com/patrik/kungslena.html)
(http://www.djurfeldt.com/patrik/bilder/klenamin.jpg) yeah... lol
I did notice TheRingLord has their "recycled punch rings" available in mild steel again, and for a nice price too. If I decide to go that route with the punched rings, I'd go through them, order theirs and modify them to better looking on my anvil. For the price I won't complain they're "dimpled" and "not centered." This is a picture of their titanium rings: http://theringlord.com/images/products/rings/P-16732-TI.jpg (http://theringlord.com/images/products/rings/P-16732-TI.jpg)
As for my progress: I'm almost done with my first 3.5lb spool of wire! 8) not bad considering real life has taken precedence these past few days and I haven't had as much time to work on it.
If I can actually have some time, I could probably get all 14lbs of wire I currently have all coiled up by this time next week. But let's face it, it'd probably take a small miracle for me to be able to accomplish that with everything else I have going on, so I'm just plugging away.
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I was posting about romans and punched rings, and got ninja'd on it.
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Are y'all trying to tell me something? ;D Also, no offense to Ice, or Erik D Schmid, but I've seen some of the mail up close from India, and I'm not impressed with it. There's always room for improvement, and I think they have quite a bit of improving still to go.
While Icefalcon is a distributor of imported Indian maille (just like GDFB and all the other mass-market maille providers), Erik D. Schmid is nothing of the sort. He makes his stuff the way it was done in period, and reproduces the most historically accurate maille this side of the Late Middle Ages. Please don't mistake Erik's work for what the Indian maille producers are churning out.
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ummm erics is as close to perfect as you can get. its not Indian mail, he draws his own wire etc. Indian mail now is loosely based off what forth armoury gave them to work with.... before they sold his copies to other companies. noneof there rivets are close to being right. wedge or rivet, it still looks differently
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While Icefalcon is a distributor of imported Indian maille (just like GDFB and all the other mass-market maille providers), Erik D. Schmid is nothing of the sort. He makes his stuff the way it was done in period, and reproduces the most historically accurate maille this side of the Late Middle Ages. Please don't mistake Erik's work for what the Indian maille producers are churning out.
ummm erics is as close to perfect as you can get. its not Indian mail, he draws his own wire etc. Indian mail now is loosely based off what forth armoury gave them to work with.... before they sold his copies to other companies. noneof there rivets are close to being right. wedge or rivet, it still looks differently
Sir Ian and Sir Wolf,
I fear my lack of clarity clouded my intentions. I meant how Erik taught India how to mass-produce mail, not that his skills aren't adequate on their own. Truly, his mail is a bar to hold all other mail against.
And in that, I understand where the compromises of business came in with the India mail, and for it's quality, I'm not a fan. In that, I say no offense to Ice for distributing it, and to Erik for helping India to make the mail to begin with, it's just not for me.
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Is that the same Erik who owns WinterTreeCrafts in VT??
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I don't know personally. I only know of Erik D Schmid because of the armourarchive, his writings on creating tools for making mail, his analysis on period mail, and his own workings within mail. Basically as they rightly defended him, Erik D Schmid is THE MAN when it comes to modern day reproductions in mail. He also helped, if I remember correctly from what I've read at the AA, to streamline and create the process that India makes their mail from, kind of the "project lead" in a way.
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no it is not.
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Greetings everyone
Three weeks in - phase two
so I finally have some form of camera now. Long story short that was fun and it's nice, even if it is on my phone, to finally have something to take pictures with so Sir Wolf doesn't ban me! :D
as of late, I have been coiling more pounds of wire into coils, cutting them, and getting them "lapped" as I have come to call the overlapping to get the ends for riveting. I've also done some experiments with different rings to see what works and what doesn't for my research.
Here's what I have to date:
first off, I need to say that bar none these tools are worth their weight in gold!
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5489/9157780178_91e0a6b870_n.jpg)
and here's why:
not only are they good for the mail weaving process itself but they are also great for lapping the ends of the rings!
here's how I do this, and I'll post up a video as well showing the process as a whole later:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3686/9157776652_25079c929d_n.jpg)
and on to the experiments, without annealing, the lapped rings are nigh impossible to smush, and yes, that's the best word I can use to describe it. Basically, as one hammers, the end underneath walks and never wants to stay under:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3809/9155565069_f8e020f1ac_n.jpg) I tried this four different times with the same results no matter what I did with the hammer or anvil, or placement of the rings.
for the non-annealed rings, the best way to hammer them is to do it before they are lapped which makes what appears to be a nice ring afterwards:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2880/9155562065_0fa6d90c61_n.jpg)
BUT
they don't exactly like to smush together:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2867/9155557717_db8590636b_n.jpg) nor is it very uniform in smushing :D (I was actually wondering if I took a profile shot of the lap and had to double check this!)
and here, are my good ones:
these were annealed actually on my bbq in Havasu not with my torch as I forgot that when I went for the weekend. The annealed ones with the torch look even better.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3711/9157783482_5c37b639ba_n.jpg)
and here is what they look like in the profile view of the lapped joint
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/9155558993_8217e530cb_n.jpg)
much better :D
so what did I learn? pretty much what I've found from others remains to be true. Patience is a virtue and if one doesn't skimp on any of the steps, the result is very rewarding. To put my use down as efficiently as I can:
after coils are cut into rings I overlap the rings with my vicegrip
I then anneal them to an orange, almost orange-yellow color
I hit the ring two-four times on one side - only on the lap, with a 32oz mallet
I flip the ring over and do that again on that side to give it a uniform finish
I then clip the edges if needed, followed by filing if needed.
and how long does this take? well you'd be surprised. I can anneal up to 250 rings at once with the rig I have set up now with my torch, and they cool within a couple hours but I wait until the next day. I can hammer out probably more than that in an hour and it's quite relaxing and a great way to relieve pent up stress too. I love the sound!
So all in all this phase of the work isn't all that tough at all and quite fun.
when you combine this with the punched rings I'm going to purchase, it won't be too long at all until I have all my rings made, and then on to the fun part 8)
weaving my mail, then riveting the rings after it's all woven :o
here's a teaser I made with some galvanized butted rings to stand in for the punched rings, and I didn't rivet it.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3714/9155567243_f647739b5f_n.jpg)
I'll be sure to post up the video about how I overlap my rings once my phone charges back up again
YIS
B. Patricius
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Wow, good luck! I made my own hauberk, but with just simple butt-links, and it took quite a long time. I didn't go through the whole hammering, riveting, annealing, etc. I can't wait to see how it turns out.
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I cannot wait to see this completed! If you stay the course this will be one heck of a hauberk when it's all done!
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WOW! You are by far the better and more patient armorer than I could ever be good B. Patricius! :)
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I cannot wait to see this completed! If you stay the course this will be one heck of a hauberk when it's all done!
Seconded! And glad to see you got a camera. Perhaps Sir Wolf will lower the ban stick for a while.
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i put it on a lanyard so it's never far........ lol
nice.
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Guys, Non nobis Domine, non nobis
thankyou so much for your support. And yes Sir Wolf, I shall keep the enemy forces of the "Ban lanyard" at bay now, insomuch as my phone/camera doesn't die on me again! ;D
Sir Edward, Sir Ian, Sir James - thank you from the bottom of my heart. I was actually thinking about this last week. "They're probably curious about my mail endeavors and may even be worried I've fallen through. Just wait til this weekend and I can finally show something!" I'm hoping it will do justice. Looking at the rings, by themselves, it's hard not to critique them. But in doing that, nothing will get done.
Sir Brian, it's funny that you admire my patience and I thank you for your compliment. It's funny really, but I take out my lack of patience and any and all frustrations when I'm smushing those rings! ;D It's gotten to a point where when I take a break, I have to play Assassin's Creed 1, or work on something else of my kit, just to constantly feel I'm making progress forward. Patience is definitely not something of a virtue of mine, but something I've longed aspired to.
Now, if only I can figure out how to post up my video!! It's awesome, and really explains how I overlap my rings without having to make special tools or smush fingers! :D If anyone can assist I'd be most appreciative. I have an HTC EVO. It sucks too, because my last phone had no problem doing it lol
again, thank you everyone. your support is most appreciated
YIS
B. Patricius
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Most impressive Patricus ! I have a mandrel if you are in need of some coils. It is extra wire, and if you are interested in some help, you have my email. Chief, out.
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James,
welcome and well met again! Feel free to get to know everyone here. I know you know most of them from Facebook. Be sure to post up a greetings page here: http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/board,13.0.html (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/board,13.0.html) thanks for checking in on my work. I appreciate the offer to assist on this. And I'm looking forward to ordering a shield or two in the coming future 8)
for those of you who don't know, James makes wicked awesome shields and shield kits.
Joe Metz has one of his:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8158/7386960500_f74abc3bb3.jpg)
also, to add to this, my soft part of my kit, is happily done. Tonight was quite emotional as I made the cross. My lady graciously sewed it for me. I'm wearing everything but my armour.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/9162873233_397d366f21.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5538/9162874331_6cf893d8ac.jpg)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2817/9162875523_12917cd63b.jpg)
Basically I need:
hauberk
chausses
helmet
sword and sword belt
accessories
- that's it. I'm really excited
the hood turned out huge. :D partially I think all my years performing as a Jedi came out, but also to get the hood to fall right on my shoulders, it needed to be this large.
Please offer any constructive criticism you can. It means a lot to me coming from you guys. This is my fighter kit, cotton, machine stitched, and machine washable. Nothing nearly good enough for DOK. I am wearing braies, hose, and a shirt based of St. Louis though, but I figured I'd save you guys the pain of seeing me in those :D
non nobis Domine, non nobis
B. Patricius