ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Rodney on 2014-01-20, 06:00:55
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I’m looking for suggestions and recommendations for a mid-fourteenth century arming coat pattern. Here’s what I’m thinking:
I’d like to be “historically responsible” to 1350’s southern England / northern France.
Pattern recommendations are preferred because funds are tight and I can sew.
The garment will see a lot of wear and tear in SCA style rattan combat.
While the garment will not necessarily need to meet living history group standards, it would be nice to bring my game to the next level.
I’ve found patterns for sale from “Reconstructing History” Kass McGann and “Tailoress” Tasha Kelly, both of which seem well researched and reasonable. Has anyone had experience with these or other patterns?
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i made the coharde(sp?) from kass err i mean reconstructing history and it was easy.
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I made mine from the Cote Simple website. Pretty easy.
EDIT: White MountainArmoury site, not Cote Simple.
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Huge vote to Tasha's pattern, here's the cote I made from it:
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2516.msg36290.html#msg36290 (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2516.msg36290.html#msg36290)
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Second vote for Tailoress/Tasha just from the results of Sir Ian's
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Constructing a Heavy-List Gambeson: Tips and Techniques
http://whitemountainarmoury.com/pdfs/armingCoat.pdf (http://whitemountainarmoury.com/pdfs/armingCoat.pdf)
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Wow Ian, I missed your threads here and on myArmoury! I really like the grand assiette sleeve construction.
My current rig started as a standard gambeson that I heavily modified over the years as I figured out proper body mechanics. I still wear a single layer “pourpoint” under the gambeson to get my legs to hang correctly and not ride up when raising my arms.
I like the idea of moving to a single garment made with proper materials and technique in order to save weight, heat, and arming time.
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Wow Ian, I missed your threads here and on myArmoury! I really like the grand assiette sleeve construction.
My current rig started as a standard gambeson that I heavily modified over the years as I figured out proper body mechanics. I still wear a single layer “pourpoint” under the gambeson to get my legs to hang correctly and not ride up when raising my arms.
I like the idea of moving to a single garment made with proper materials and technique in order to save weight, heat, and arming time.
Thanks Scott! Not only do I like the CdB pourpoint because it's more historical, but the switch to just one garment versus two is so much more comfortable and less encumbering. It makes a huge difference in how good you feel in harness to shed those unnecessary layers.
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I finally buckled down and ordered the pourpoint of Charles de Blois pattern book from “Tailoress” Tasha Kelly and her wonderful La cotte simple (http://cottesimple.com/) web site.
Now I just have to wait for the mailman to deliver!
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I'm currently making a CdB with Tasha's pattern, and so far it's fairly easy. The initial steps of making a mock garment from muslin is a great idea. You might want to brush up on your tailoring jargon, I had to figure out what a "selvage" was for instance, but none of it is especially hard. Sewing all the parts together by hand is the worst of it, the patterns and instructions make it really easy.
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The mailman has delivered! It’s time for some reading, shopping and maybe even a new thread. :)
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Others can chime in with their preferred sources, but I got all my linen from http://fabrics-store.com/ (http://fabrics-store.com/). I recommend the canvas weight for the outer shell, and the medium weight for the liner. If you're going to pad it with batting, I recommend a 100% natural fiber batting of your choice.
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thats usually the best place to get linen
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That's where I get all my linen also.
Question: Why use heavier linen for the outside? I'm currently pinning my pattern to the medium weight linen to cut the final garment, and I was thinking... why not make the whole thing out of this? Any advice?
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Maille. :)
The canvas weight stands up to the maille, dirt, grime, straps etc... the medium weight is going to get torn up.
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Yup, that's where I get my linen, too. 8)
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I'm thinking about making this my first project for mig mid 14th cent persona and was wondering if the Charles de Blois Pourpoint would be historical for an English knight at this time.
I know Sir Ian have made a fine looking example, but if I remember correctly your kit is from late 14th and was wondering how much this part had changed?
Also a bit worried about the form, it looks rather form fitting and my physical form is mostly...round.
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I have a black one for my 14th century look. It works fine for my English persona. :)
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Another piece of advice on the "Dandelion" CdB: make a photocopy of all the pattern pages, and use the photocopies to assemble your pattern. Save the originals to make future patterns.
As for shape, it might take more trial and error during the initial stages when you're making your muslin prototype to get it just right, but I don't think it would stop you from making one. You'll definitely also need more fabric than the directions say. These obstacles shouldn't deter a determined effort though. As with any 'hand made' garment, making it will take dedication, but if you have the will and the right tools and materials, any adult could make one using this pattern. The best part of it is that at the end, you have a custom fitted garment that fits you perfectly because you made it to fit your body instead of buying an off the shelf size.
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I've seen som effigies where some sort of "arming coat" is visible at about kneelenght, beneath the mail, would this work for that as well? it seems to be fairly short in the pictures I've seen.
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Even in the late 14th century, we still see medieval fighters wearing a full hauberk under their plate, so what we have is a pourpoint covered by a hauberk covered by plate. For this setup the hauberk hangs down a bit lower than the hem of the pourpoint, just a tad beyond the length of the jupon. The shape of the CdB isn't correct for earlier periods, especially the grand aisette, but if being historical is secondary to being comfortable for your needs, then it's really hard to beat a pourpoint over a more historical gambesson/aketon.
Though, some of the benefit of a CdB might be lost if your maille isn't as well tailored as your arming garment. One of the big problems with cheap maille is the way the sleeves and armpits are constructed. Often more the shape of a slightly tapering tube, it should be formed like the shape of a human arm with tailored elbows and shoulders, attached to the torso a bit forward of directly to the side, and the armpit should ride up where your arm attaches to your torso, not hang down several inches below it. The impact of an ill-fitting hauberk is that it binds when you're moving around vigorously, it's uncomfortable to wear for long periods, and it restricts your movement especially when it's belted or held in place by a breastplate or a Coat of Plates. The real glory of the CdB is threefold: the grand aisette sleeves that allow comfortable full range of motion without the hem of the garment ever moving at all (test this by pointing your finger at the ceiling and looking down at the hem of your shirt), pointing the leg harness directly to a single arming garment instead of having a separate "arming vest" for it, and the compression at the hips that allows the leg harness to ride on the hips and not pull down on the wearer's shoulders. If your maille doesn't fit well all of these benefits will be lessened somewhat, but if you're impression predates a full leg harness then the hip compression won't matter as much to you.
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What I was thinking about is something like this:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/942/1174/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/942/1174/)
At the bottom of the mail it looks like some sort of gambeson but so far all the versions of the De Blois version seems to be fairly short.
Here's another, little later example of what I mean:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1104/2579/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1104/2579/)
Are we talking about a completely different garment here?
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The second one looks like fluted knee cops, and above them, mail.
The first one, I'm not quite sure. I'd almost say splinted cuisses, but it looks to be part of the leg armor to me. Not very sure though.
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The knees are indeed fluted but you can clearly see a hem above those, just below the mail.
It's not a lot but enough to see.
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Kenneth: yes, we're talking about two completely different garments. As I mentioned the CdB is not correct for earlier periods. You won't find any effigies or period art with knights of the 1340's wearing them. My comments on the CdB were more to the point that if historical accuracy isn't a concern for you, then a CdB is hard to beat. Also, as I mentioned if your armor is too early for a fully integrated leg harness the benefits of the CdB will be lessened somewhat, and the armor you're looking at is free floating legs.
If you're wanting something more historical for the period you seem to have chosen, check out the aketon/gambesson/pourpoint of Charles VI of france. (https://i0.wp.com/www.sagacioushours.org.uk/images/fighting_research/Charles_pourpoint_combined_web.jpg (https://i0.wp.com/www.sagacioushours.org.uk/images/fighting_research/Charles_pourpoint_combined_web.jpg)) Although Charles VI was himself of the late 14th - early 15th century, it's one of the only surviving examples of this style of garment so it makes a great pattern. There is also plenty of historical artwork depicting gambessons of the early-mid 14th century that your gambesson could be based on.
Scott
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If you're wanting something more historical for the period you seem to have chosen, check out the aketon/gambesson/pourpoint of Charles VI of france. (https://i0.wp.com/www.sagacioushours.org.uk/images/fighting_research/Charles_pourpoint_combined_web.jpg (https://i0.wp.com/www.sagacioushours.org.uk/images/fighting_research/Charles_pourpoint_combined_web.jpg)) Although Charles VI was himself of the late 14th - early 15th century, it's one of the only surviving examples of this style of garment so it makes a great pattern. There is also plenty of historical artwork depicting gambessons of the early-mid 14th century that your gambesson could be based on.
Just note that the 'Red Charlie' (the Charles VI cote) is thought by many to have been worn over armor. There are rust stains inside the garment to indicate it was an over-armor jupon, and that would fit with the over-sized barrel sleeves present on the garment if worn over an arm harness. There's also slits in the left side to allow for the sword belt to be worn underneath.
The original garment and a French manuscript dated to the same time period:
(http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/garments/charlesVI/charlesVIL.jpg)
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/339-2_gallery.jpg)