ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Campaign => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2010-11-04, 14:21:41
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I figured since people were interested in discussing this in another thread, I'd start a thread where we can have a discussion about it. This is more of a "let's discuss options" thread rather than "here's what we're going to do".
I've toyed around with the idea of trying to start an order of knights, or something along those lines, off and on over the last few years. But I've been hesitant, not just because I wasn't sure how many interested folks we'd have, but for a few other reasons too which I'll describe here. Finding enough people to get started is always a challenge, since it frequently falls to one or two people to do everything as organizers until a certain critical mass is reached, and the group can function on its own.
But here's where my background has made me cautious. Aside from various online forums/clubs and the like that I've participated in before, I've also done the medieval society sort of thing as well. Sir Wolf and I were part of a group a number of years ago called the UEMA (United Empires of the Middle Ages). I don't think it lasted even a year before politics ripped it apart, and our local area splintered off and formed another group. It was called DAGGER (Distant Ages, Guilds and Garrisons, for Education and Reenactment). It also fell apart after a year or so.
This is ironic because a lot of the members of these groups were ex-SCAdians who left the SCA to escape the politics and bickering. But it's human nature to take things seriously, and when titles and ranks and awards and knighthoods and badges and so on start getting taken too seriously, politics ensue. "Why is he a duke and I'm only an earl". "Who made you king?". "Why did he get X award when I've been doing it twice as long?". Etc.
So we need to think about what it is that we want.
Being able to gather up and do a charity event from time to time, or movie nights, is always a cool idea, but what happens between those?
And is it to be a local in-person-only group or do we have a broader national or international membership? How do you deal with distant members?
At the simplest end, there can be simply a "club" of knightly folks, which is kept informal in terms of rules and membership details. We can meet up for movie and dinner nights, and also group up at the renfaires as we do now. There would just be a name attached to it.
At the more complex end, there can be a charter, and a set of by-laws. Rules for earning ranks. Membership is tightly controlled, and titles have meaning. Ceremonies for promotions, symbolism and regalia.
A while back for fun I tried creating a sample charter for an order of knights. One thing I had to work on was membership requirements. I thought about the idea of requiring knights to have a sword and armor. But that also raises another complex set of questions. Do they have to be functional, or is aluminum OK? What level of authenticity? Where do you draw the line? If the rule is just a vague statement like "armor and sword, any material", then does it let people in with plastic roman armor or mail made from soda-can rings? Is there a rule that enforces adherence to chivalry. To what extent?
Anyway, I figured I'd start a discussion here, and let you guys think about what level of involvement you'd want and what sort of organization you'd like to be a part of.
Thoughts?
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well, you know I always got your back.
what about a charter of an existing group. like Selohaar. i don't know all of there ins and outs but they seem like a low key group of friends that garb up, hang out, do battles, and have dinners.
that is the key: having fun with friends. when running an event it often becomes tiresome for the host and they get burned out.
my land is always open for anything. (as long as I'm king hahahah jkjk ehhehe)
and that doesn't need to be there either. kings, earls dukes barons that just gets in the way. a simple knight, page or squire etc ranking until you get your kit together or something hmmm i dunno, how does selohaar do it ehhehe
but a great focus is around the sword play too. i would love to learn stuff but dont have time for Das Bills classes (plus the distance hehe) maybe we could have lessons at events etc as well as play time. maybe have duals using the good latex weapons until everyone is in the same boat for steel etc
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I'm in, whichever way you go. If I had my druthers, it'd be less formal and more about the camaraderie of knights than the rush for titles, as it were. I have little experience w/SCA having been 'warned off' by one of its more zealous members and figured it wouldn't be worth the hassle at the time.
Having said that, I would be honored to be part of an officially chartered group of knights...what I've always aspired to, if you will. I think as far as ranks go, if we keep it to knighthood with the principle(s) being referred to as the Knight Commander would go a long way to keeping politics out of it. Maybe the KC can be a rotating position...that is, they keep the position for a year or two, then the next one on the rolls becomes KC for a term. That way, no one gets burned out by being the host at every event every year, and all get a chance to lead so none feel left out.
I think with the present company, we can all consider ourselves knight-initiates; has any of us except Sir Edward received the Accolade? I know I have not, even though I have given it, once. For the wedding it was. For all subsequent new members, Novitiate rank maybe, then Squire, then Knight-Novitiate after which they can receive the Accolade and be considered full-fledged knights and get their name inscribed in the charter maybe? What would be the requirements for advancement? Skills in the knightly arts, maybe, with the exception of horseback? As for the Charter, we could have an actual scroll (or maybe wooden plate) on which the names of the Knights of our Order get inscribed for all eternity...that'd be pretty cool, I think.
I'm all for movie or any other sort of get together, schedules permitting...for those of us who are reasonably local would of course have the advantage of continued exposure to one another so we're bound to be tighter knit than farther-flung members...not a problem for me, but it might be so for others so how should that be addressed?
A couple things to think about...having an established rule set give the appearance of order, an established meeting location gives it a semblance of a realistic group rather than idealistic, such as what we all share now. Having the website goes a long way in continuing to build rapport between us members, it would seem logical for this to be the next step.
I also like Sir Wolf's idea of having sword play involved...we all aspire to be knights so why not? It has been my intention for the last 3 years to attend one of Das Bill's classes...I'd be more inclined to do so if I felt that one of the results would be to pass on what I've learned to my brother knights. Great idea for using latex wasters...no need in beating eachother to death by accident!
I like the idea of having requirements...so that it doesn't seem like every Tom, Dick and Harry can join (even though, realistically, they can) - that they need to come with something other than just themselves. I see it being big on FB, too- we could even have 'companions' to our Order...people who may have a cursory interest or just want to be attached but unofficially? The current 'Templar Order' has such a rank in their lists. Just some ideas.
Armor/Accoutrement requirements...for this I think it should be what suits that particular knight. Maybe we could exclude plastic or rubber armor simply because it wouldn't be representative of what a knight wore in that the weight and materials would be incorrect and I see us as being a repository of information as well so maybe we could allow aluminum because it does have the look and feel (but not the weight). Maybe if it looks reasonably plausible? How far would we take it? Must it be constrained to a specific period/era? Guess we'd have to vote on which period we all want to adhere to, or can we be as we are, a representation of roughly 300 or 400 years (1100AD-1500AD) of knighthood?
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(Heh, I was typing this but didn't hit 'post' before going out to lunch, just replying to Sir Wolf's post here):
Well, Selohaar functions as an Order, with degrees that have to be earned. From the look of their Roll of Arms, not many of them rise very high. I know they have a lot of mysticism worked in, with rituals and ceremonies as well. Not all of them are interesting in knights and combat, as there are others who are there for other medieval interests or for the mystical magick side of things.
Of course our previous groups, UEMA/DAGGER, were meant to be like mini-SCA organizations. So while knights and combat were only a small part of those as well, they were more broadly focused on medieval re-creation and included titles of nobility.
I think for us, something focused just on knights makes sense. A narrow, well-defined scope will certainly help. But there are so many different ways of approaching this sort of thing, it's not funny.
The Fiat Lux down in the Carolinas is another knighthood order in the region that we can look at as an example as well. They do armored combat with steel weapons, for charity events and the like, and treat it as a serious Order.
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(Additional after seeing Paladin's post):
I think that's more of what I've been thinking lately as well-- something more informal. I think most people who get into all this knightly stuff tend to arrive at it on their own. It makes them a bit of a "Knight Errant", and so the solidarity of an Order isn't 100% compatible with that.
I should point out that my Accolade was in DAGGER, which doesn't exist anymore. And the only reason it happened was because I stepped up and said we needed to have an order of knights in the kingdom, who could organize our combat system. We knighted a few people, and did nothing else with it before the group failed.
I thought about the idea of new members being an initiate, or aspirant at first. Knighting comes as full membership once they've shown they're here to stay. To me "squire" is really a job and not a rank, since back in the day, that's really what it was. Perhaps an initiate can be squired to an existing knight until knighted. Something like that.
As for swordplay, I'd love to have some days where we can get together and do that. I'm happy to teach what I know. I still highly encourage people to learn at VAF if they can, or with whatever group is local to them, as they'll learn much more that way. I can teach, but I'm better at doing than teaching, and I only consider myself "capable" at the doing part, not necessarily "good". :)
Also, some groups have the main entrance requirement simply as being sponsored by two existing knights. That might be good enough.
I'm all for keeping things simple and informal. Just some rules about how to get in, etc, so that there's an established way of doing things, but without the ranks and titles and politics and.. and.. and..
We'll have to think on the equipment part for sure. I like the 1100-1500 sort of idea, though I'd probably extend that to about 1600 since there are some really cool harnesses in the 16th century too. So maybe 1066-1600 (battle of hastings as a starting point).
Great discussion and ideas. Let's keep the ball rolling.
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I've been thinking about this today and Sir Edward and I seemed to have reached the same conclusion about eliminating ranks and titles. Everyone was equal at the Round Table right? I also like the idea of knighting after someone has been in for a set amount of time, for it shows commitment to the group. A few points I might add:
1. As far as kits and garb go, assuming everyone makes a contientious effort to do their best, maybe something like a "five foot" rule would make it easier for new memebers still getting their kits together. Several groups use the rule, and it just means the kit/garb should look "period" from about five feet away. Obviously, if we are talking about live steel demos, or more dangerous activities, that will need to be tweaked.
2. Say someone doesn't have the means or desire to participate in fighting, but would rather demonstrate some living history in a camp setting. Just because this individual's public personna may be "Walt the Weaver" or something like that, he is still Sir Walter in organization circles, no different than those members who may choose to portray a knight personna for the general public. I think this would really open up the group to individuals who possess skills and talents that are always invaluable in these types of organizations, and it would allow people not inclined to more martial activities to still join in the fun.
Anyway, that's my two cents. Back to my yardwork.
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Well said, Red Knight- I think since we're all knights, we're on the same page, so to speak, I'm not much for titles anyway, leads to grandstanding in certain types of individuals which can lead to grumblings lol
As for fighting, I think that can be done by whomever wants to be included, but it shouldn't be a requirement to be a knight. Maybe to advance to KC if we do that, would require a demonstration of skill at the very least? Maybe that'd be a good idea, maybe not- we'd just have to try it out and see. I'm up for it!
I'm all for it, no matter what is decided...the beauty about an informal gathering of like minds is that if one isn't as enthused, he/she can walk away w/out any sort of reprisal. I suppose most groups work like that...I don't know.
5 foot rule...works for me; gives everyone a little lee way regarding authenticity (and budget lol) and everyone can feel a part of something larger than themselves- but something to which we can all hold ourselves to with honor. And integrity.
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Those are some good ideas. I'd be hesitant to make martial capability a requirement, since we have folks here who don't do historical swordsmanship but can do an excellent job of portraying a knight at renfaires and events. I think being able to speak intelligently about chivalry and knights, and do a good kit, are probably enough. I don't think it's necessary to require people to be ass-kickers, so to speak. I certainly encourage folks to pick up the sword though, since it's fun and educational.
I'd probably make it a 10-foot rule, personally. Does it photograph well? If the answer is yes, it's probably good.
I like the idea of everyone simply being knights without additional ranks and titles, though the leader could be referred to as the knight commander, and be elected by the body of knights periodically. I think Paladin had a good idea here. No "grandmaster for life", or selection by right of combat, or anything like that. Some sort of demonstration of skill? Perhaps, but a simple election might be good enough. We're talking about a more organizational role, after all.
The organization would need a name of course.
Also, I'd love to hear some input from some more forum folks who haven't chimed in yet, even if just to say "it's not for me".
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Why not simply "The Order of Modern Chivalry"? That's essentially what we are...unless you want something more jazzy. Here's a little something about chivalric orders...I was looking for a French translation of the aforementioned name and came up with this: http://www.nobility-association.com/ordersofchivalry.htm
Makes for an interesting read considering the current topic of discussion.
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I'd probably make it a 10-foot rule, personally.
Hey, then I could join! ;)
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I'd probably make it a 10-foot rule, personally.
Hey, then I could join! ;)
You could join anyway...judging by the soft kit, at 10 ft few would tell the difference if all of us were together like so (and I should've been in this pic but missed the day damn it lol):
(http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv64/ebonpaladin/Armor/KnightsofModernChivalry2010.jpg)
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I'm definitely for keeping this informal and eliminating titles and rank beyond Knight and some sort of initiate rank until the proposed member proves they intend to stay. I know that most living history and reenactment groups also have a timeline for acquiring the necessary garb and equipment, in general it seems to be a year to have the basic minimum. In the case of our proposed order I think the minimum should be period pants, shirt, headgear and footwear or at least period-ish, which I would define as does it look appropriate for the period. This rule recognizes this is an expensive hobby that some people need to save up to get a full kit but we don't want to eliminate their interest and possible other contributions. I would agree that movie and other social gatherings should, at least initially, be the groups focus. Stage combat and combat lessons will most likely come out of this naturally. Some one does need to be the leader and I see know reason why it should not be an elected position with Knight Commander as the title. Most crusading orders, like the Tuetonic Knights, elected their leaders in just this way. As for meetings and such, informal can you make it would be best, some of the board members here who might be interested live a long way apart and will not make any sort of regular monthly gatherings and such. Some of us may only see each other at various faires, so having "faire invasions" on certain weekends may be a sort of meeting as well. I see no reason to limit this to solely martial affairs either, knights had a myriad of responsibilies beyond military so we should include other period interests as a way of imitating this. Besides, this would give is just the sort of excuse we need to get dressed up and meet in person to help crituque our individual kits and to help each other work on areas of improvement. Looking at pictures of all of our kits and reading descriptions of our projects is all well and good but nothing beats actually being able to touch and look at the stuff in person.
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"Knights of the Round Table"
no Arthur just real knights HAH!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfGpVcdqeS0[/youtube]
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As for meetings and such, informal can you make it would be best, some of the board members here who might be interested live a long way apart and will not make any sort of regular monthly gatherings and such. Some of us may only see each other at various faires, so having "faire invasions" on certain weekends may be a sort of meeting as well. I see no reason to limit this to solely martial affairs either, knights had a myriad of responsibilies beyond military so we should include other period interests as a way of imitating this. Besides, this would give is just the sort of excuse we need to get dressed up and meet in person to help crituque our individual kits and to help each other work on areas of improvement. Looking at pictures of all of our kits and reading descriptions of our projects is all well and good but nothing beats actually being able to touch and look at the stuff in person.
Matthew, good point...and as far as meetings go, we do live in the Information Age, why couldn't we make use of available technologies to hold our meetings? Here at work, we use something called MeetingOne, but there have to be other software packages like that which won't cost us a thing to use...everyone using a computer would have to have at the least an audio package w/mic so that they could listen and be heard; a webcam if they want to be seen.
For my part, I wouldn't mind doing it that way, although I still feel we should meet in person at least a couple times a year outside of the Faires. Just a suggestion. Who knows, this could be big...I'm thinking appearances/demonstrations at local venues, malls or other places (like libraries) which might appreciate a living history type of program.
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Also, I'd love to hear some input from some more forum folks who haven't chimed in yet, even if just to say "it's not for me".
Yeah yeah I hear you! As one of the forumites who haven’t chimed in yet I apologize for my late contribution…been a busy week at work.
I would love to see this happen. I would especially like the combat aspect as well even though my greatest contribution in that aspect would probably be a big mobile pell! :D
Still I have always admired the Knights of Fiat Lux and their charity work and would love to be a part of such a noble endeavor.
On garb, I really don’t think we would need any type of requirement as was previously stated that will essentially take care of itself, after all aren’t we all driven to improve our garb when and where we can?
~ I’ll have more thoughts on this later but work calls me back again!
:(
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Yeah, I think the points about garb/armor requirements are more to enforce the theme (no stormtroopers, for instance) than to be quality-nazis. It's hard to draw a line in any case though. A good example is the group photo a few posts back. Jon and Jake both have armor from Highland Anvil. It's not functional (it's steel, but about 20 gauge, if not thinner), and is more fantasy than historical. However, it has that "medieval look", and to the unwashed masses they still look like knights. I wouldn't want to exclude them as not being authentic enough. However, if giving a demo with a theme of "come and see what real knight's armor is like", then we'd need much better examples.
Yeah yeah I hear you! As one of the forumites who haven’t chimed in yet I apologize for my late contribution…been a busy week at work.
Hehe, yeah these "wall of text" threads can be hard to deal with when you're being kept busy. ;)
You could join anyway...judging by the soft kit, at 10 ft few would tell the difference if all of us were together like so
I think some groups actually have a 20-foot rule. That definitely would cover group photos like that. :)
Why not simply "The Order of Modern Chivalry"? That's essentially what we are...unless you want something more jazzy.
That could work. Or we could come up with something more snazzy. Any preferences? Do we want it attached specifically to the forum or allow it to have a life of its own? In either case, I can set up a private area on the forum. Members would lose their post-count title in favor of a group title.
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I think we're on the same page...but I think as far as the armor stuff goes, we can cross that road when we get to it. Jon and Jake are good to go far as I'm concerned, but I see this thing evolving naturally and we'll make bridges when necessary.
As for linking to the forum, well- it is how it all got started. I would never have gotten to really interact w/you guys were it not for this site, and it espouses all of the ideals we all hold to...not to mention giving a face to the Order, allowing 'outsiders' to see how we interact, what it all means, etc. Or not, I'll go along with the consensus on this.
I'll do some thinking on a cool name...any ideas for heraldry that might work its way into the signage? Like a representative Beast as it were.
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Oh yeah, I would definitely like to make heraldry. Preferably something tastefully simple, that could be printed in monochrome for letterhead or business cards. This opens all sorts of possibilities down the line, like pin-on badges or whatever.
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What would be our Beast, as it were? Maybe it could be the 'Order of the (Beast)', whatever beast we choose. Like, the Order of the Crimson Gryphon, or the Order of the Cruciform Sword...think that last one came out of a movie because I can almost see it. Indiana Jones, last Crusade? Think that was it, although they were the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword.
The image would have to be hella cool, too.
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Whatever options we consider, we need to make sure to thoroughly google them first so we don't accidentally conflict with something else, or run into unintended connotations or whatever. It would be a good idea to check its abbreviation too, especially on urban dictionary. :)
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Yeah, I think we are all pretty much in agreement and thinking along the same lines. I would definitely like to see some kind of Heraldry, but will leave that up to people with better qualification in that area than I have. Meeting over the interweb is intruqueing and certainly opens up possibilities to people from all over, I had forgotten that we do have international members here until I read Sir Gerard's post in another thread.
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Yep, I certainly would like it to be open to members both near and far, though obviously it'll be easier for those of us that are located near each other to be participatory in terms of events and the like.
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If we can't find a heraldric beast to use, why not go with someone who was the personification of chivalry itself: William Marshall? "The Order of the Marshall" has a nice ring to it, and his heraldry wasn't to shabby either.
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That is nice.
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That is very good Red Knight. Since discovering him in my research he undoubtedly was the very embodiment of chivalry.
Yes I very much concur with the moniker and the heraldry. :)
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Wow. This is pretty damn awesome. A actually am a knight w/ an order, but it's only a ceremonial thing. A real legit order would be sweet.
I cast my vote in with the lot of Order of the Marshall. That would also make for a great historical educating of general public moment.
(Average Joe):"Why did you pick that name?" (Us):"(proceeds to launch into a bio of Willie M's life and why he embodies chivalry)"
I think for the garb we should have a 10ft rule, and go w/ what was historically plausible. The person should pick a time frame and we judge plausibility based on that. (So we don't get some guys looking like the new robin hood movie running around w/ hauberk, surcoat and a sallet :o At the same time, we wouldn't be banning some poor crusading knight for sporting a haubergeon. :P)
And for guys sporting innacurate forms of armour, such as Jake & Jon would pass, some knight might have had a funky fashion sense w/ his plate.
and were not trying to kill each other, so I think material shouldn't be a concern as long as it's reasonably representative of real armour. (Aluminum/Stainless=pass, obvious plastic=no)
And as if you havent guessed by now, Id want to join. And I sure as hell want to be a knight. But I am in high school right now, so I couldn't host meetings and such. And due to my busy schedule, I might not be able to make all of the events and meetings and such. But I'm not gonna use that as an excuse to not participate. I've got a kit that passes the guidelines we're kicking around, and you can bet I'll try to make as much as I can.
I was thinking that we could have a separate rank of Banneret, which don't mean that your better than the knights, but simply makes one eligible for the post of whatever admin. titles and duties that are going into this thing. This could allow the inclusion of high schoolers and college kids, and other people whom for whatever reason cannot/dont want to have people over & host direct an event.
Some requirements for banneret could be :at least 18, have own residence (or access to alternative area) that is fit for our types of armoured mayhem, been in the program for a while, ect. just some ideas.
BTW, 1st post!
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Welcome to the forum, Nathan. :)
Yep, all great ideas so far. For the name I was also going to suggest possibilities along the lines of (but obviously not identical) to some of the ones we already know of that have the right idea, such as:
- The Knightly Order of the Fiat Lux (Fiat Lux = "let there be light")
- The Knights of Veritas (veritas = truth)
- The Order of the Swords of Chivalry
The order I threw together in DAGGER was called the Order of the Silver Sword (silver often being equated with purity).
But I like the Order of the Marshal too. I think some googling may be in order to make sure we're in the clear. The abbreviation doesn't have any obvious problems either (KOM = "Knight, Order of the Marshal").
Based on our discussion so far, I may try to draw up a sample charter. Then we'll get to decide on all the fiddly little bits and pieces. :)
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But I like the Order of the Marshal too. I think some googling may be in order to make sure we're in the clear. The abbreviation doesn't have any obvious problems either (KOM = "Knight, Order of the Marshal").
Quick search (not even a few minutes) shows some of the closest things as:
- Marshallans (Knights of Marshall, named in honor of Sir James Marshall) http://www.marshallan.org/ (http://www.marshallan.org/)
- Knight Marshal (former office in British royal household) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Marshal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Marshal)
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Just found an Order of the Marshall on Facebook. It's a page for anyone with Marshall as a first, middle, or last name. Bummer.
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There is a free program available on windows and *nix called "Skype" that I have used for VOIP stuff before. Works well enough considering it's free. I'm not sure if it supports video chat, but again, it's free. :)
I think the Order of Modern Chivalry would be great. It ties back into the forum here, and if this is going to be the basis for the members / founding members, it makes sense. It would also help to separate us from the somewhat cliche "Order of the {animal}" groups, which, for some reason, remind me of sports teams.
I agree with the "no storm troopers clause". An effort at a knightly kit should be somewhat of a requirement, as that's what we're based around. IMO, doesn't matter if the member only has a soft kit that is a rough representation of something medieval. Accuracy will come along as time and finances permit for most people. And some people don't want to own armor, which is perfectly fine, as they likely have interests in other medieval-ish topics; music, dance, and so on.
My schedule fluctuates wildly, to say the least, but I'd like to get out to participate when I can. I'll see if I can come up with a decent monochrome "logo" of sorts.
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I like the Order of the Marshal (one ell, not two) - one is based on last names, ours would be based upon the Greatest Knight, Sir William the Marshal. I really like it.
Was flirting with taking his colors and heraldry as my own...this would be better.
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Just found an Order of the Marshall on Facebook. It's a page for anyone with Marshall as a first, middle, or last name. Bummer.
We'll have to decide if that's enough of a conflict to not use it. It looks like the facebook page is just an informal group page and not a formalized organization.
We could come up with a few alternates, and put it to a vote. But then, so far it sounds like everyone is liking this name as it is.
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I don't see it as such...as you say, theirs is an informal group whereas we will have a charter with a focus; just my two cents, such as it is.
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OK, sample charter/bylaws/document is started. I colorized some parts in red to indicate they're completely up in the air and I only stubbed something out, or there's more than one way to do it and we'll need to decide. The rest of it is all still up in the air too, of course. Since we're still discussing everything.
http://modernchivalry.org/stuff/chivalry-order.html (http://modernchivalry.org/stuff/chivalry-order.html)
As far as I'm concerned, I think everyone who is contributing to the discussion here can probably be considered founding members. Once we have it all assembled and underway, any new members would have to come in under the rules.
Another good question to ask-- Do we start as knights, or have to earn that? If the latter, I guess the first "commander" would be an Initiate Commander instead of a Knight Commander... lol :)
We can change all the terminology too. I just wanted to get the ball rolling on writing it all down in one place.
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Yeah, even on FB, groups are somewhat illegal when used like that, or is that some other category ???
anyway, I'm sure that they're not going to sue, considering that it is a group on facebook. And I really don't think were gonna piss off all of those individuals named Marshall for stepping on the toes of their favorite FB group....
If the order of the marshall name gets shot down (who knows, the FB page creator is probably a sue-happy lawyer....) I would propose the name
Knights of the New Chivalry. I wanted to keep the word modern out of it, since knight and that word dont mix well IMO
It also looks really cool written in french, which is I remember was the language most associated w/ high chivalry.
Chevaliers de la chevalerie nouvelle
Now if only I could figure out how to pronounce that..... :P
BTW, thanks Ed for the welcome. :)
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Now if only I could figure out how to pronounce that..... :P
BTW, thanks Ed for the welcome. :)
I'd have to demonstrate in person. :) (and mangle it in the process)
And, no problem!
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Well done Edward! I think you’ve covered most of the important aspects of laying down the foundation of our order.
If I may I would like to address this concern I’ve been reading in some other posts and that is the question of knighthood. Many may feel unsure what constitutes as what and when it is appropriate to be given the accolade of knighthood.
I will answer that question with a question:
When did you decide you were a man? When did you determine that you were a responsible adult? Was it when the government/society determined it so when you lived for so many years? No, we come to that particular realization after we had to make some difficult and poignant decisions in our lives. In essence you just “KNEW”.
Therefore I propose as to when an initiate is deemed to be worthy a knight is when they decide. – No matter what their age and as for the bestowing of the accolade itself? – Historically it only required another knight to bestow knighthood upon a squire and it was only later that cost and pageantry of the knighting became less common.
As an alternative I suggest that we carefully explain this to future initiates and then when they feel they are ready they can then ask a knight to bestow the knighthood upon him in the presence of three other knights. This would also compel those already knighted to be familiar with whatever knighting ceremony we adapt.
~ my two cents ~ :-\
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Yeah, what Id be worried about with that name is a rogue frenchman arriving and correcting us on our pronunciations... Or, God forbid, a rogue Frenchman arriving and TAUNTING us!!!!!! :o
and to Brian, I understand what you are getting at, But IMO someone should meet some qualification of a sort, required time in the order, passing a test, proving ones valor, displaying a following of the tenets of chivalry, ect.
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BTW, I checked the "KOM" abbreviate against Urban Dictionary, and there are only some minor gaming references, so we're clear here:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kom (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kom)
I'd also suggest we use the single-L version of "Marshal" since that seems most common in reference to William Marshal.
Anyway, back to knighting... I think Sir Brian raises excellent points here. I'm still torn on the idea of whether to have some specific requirement that must also be fulfilled, but perhaps that's covered by having to convince three other knights to do the accolade. :) If you can't get three to knight you, you've clearly overlooked something. So it's a bit self-balancing.
We do need to remember that we're keeping this fairly low-key, and a lot rides on the "honor system" so to speak. We don't want to overload it with rules, and busy work to do to earn titles.
I think Sir Brian's suggestion will work for me. I'd love to hear more thoughts on it, of course.
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well I could see how it would work out.
I think our knights them should have a course or a guideline system where they are taught how to judge who would make a good knight, or something like that. You know, teach them to say no if we have a bad apple and such.
and maybe we should make initial entry then a little selective, since it takes honorable people to make the honor system work ;)
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Ah but my good sir that IS the point! - 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating' and 'the blood will out'or to use a more biblical phrase, 'You can tell a tree by its fruit'. A man's deeds and bearing will show through. If you were to ask me to knight you at this very moment I would have to say no because I do not know you well enough. I can only know about someone by having discourse with them. That is really all I'm suggesting. Let us get to know each other as men sharing a common desire to improve upon ourselves with honor, integrity, generosity, valor and forbearance. Whatever we learn from this journey let us always remember that sometimes we are the student and sometimes we are the teacher, all have value and we are all equal when we come together as brothers in the pursuit of our chivalric ideals.
:)
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I agree with Sir Brian's requirements for Knighting. I would tend to think that most of us who are drawn to this are much harder on ourselves than anyone else is. The suggestion of having at least three knights participate does lend a sort of ballance to any who would jump the gun, so to speak.
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Sure. And I completely understand, and to be frank, expected and am grateful that one of our founding knights wouldn't knight a guy he's really only met once at a Renaissance fair. Granted, that IS where I suspect most to-be-knights will be from, but I can assume that we all get the point.
I'm just happy to know that there will be a level of selectivity in this. There were bad knights historically, but they sure weren't order material!
I just know that there are times when talking people into "sponsoring" you or some smiler activity to get into some club or whatever was far too easy.
I simply want to make sure that's not us.
And don't get me wrong, I support almost everything you said, especially the improving of oneself. I think that should be one of the golden rules of our order. And I'm sure just by the kind of people whom this speaks to, and from what I've seen of this so far, that we really shouldn't have to worry about problems like that. I only speak for the exception to the rule, and Justin Kase. :D
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Excellent work on the charter, Sir Edward! Thank you for undertaking that important piece of business. I hope you don't mind, but I'm nominating you to be the first Knight Commander of the Order (assumming I actually can make a nomination). Sir Brian, I agree with you as well about someone asking for the accolade when they feel they are ready, and having a group of existing knights concur. I do feel it is important to have some kind of minimum amount of time in the Order before knighting occurs, however. I think it gives the potential inititate a chance to really find out if what we are doing is for him/her, and it gives the current knights a chance to get to know this person so as to make an informed decision when the time for knighting arrives. I'm loving how easily this all seems to be falling into place, and the respectful dialogues we are having (all over this board, not just on this topic). It is a true reflection of the kind of people that chose to be members of this forum, and the kind of people who will ultimately make up the the Order.
EDIT for typos 11/09/10
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Excellent work on the charter, Sir Edward! Thank you for undertaking that important piece of business. I hope you don't mind, but I'm nominating you to be the first Knight Commander of the Order (assumming I actually can make a nomination).
Thanks, and I don't mind. :) I was thinking that's another step we'll need to discuss. When getting the ball rolling, we will need to figure out how to handle the first few accolades and who is the first Knight Commander, and what schedule to hold the elections (perhaps have a November election just like US elections). :)
I'm loving how easily this all seems to be falling into place, and the respectful dialogues we are having (all over this board, not just on this topic). It is a true reflection of the kind of people that chose to be members of this forum, and the kind of people who will ultimately make up the the Order.
Same here. I'm loving how civil and respectful things have always remained on this forum, and how much everyone seems to be on the same page with this discussion in particular. You all rock. Every one of you.
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I don't feel as if I could add anything constructive that hasn't already been said, kudos to all of you for that. I second the notion to nominate Sir Edward as our first Knight Commander...I think it would be fair to say that w/out him, this group of knightly individuals would not be enjoying the cameraderie we currently do because of this site and his vision of what knighthood truly embodies.
I like what you've done so far w/the charter, Sir Edward.
Sir Brian...I would kindly request that you disengage yourself from my inner mind as it seems you're saying what I was thinking re: manhood. Well said, Sir!
I also like the idea of a prospective knight requesting sponsorship from current knights, maybe not three, perhaps a primary and a second, w/the KC performing the Accolade, in the presence of all of the knights, if at all possible.
In fact, that could be one of the events for which we all assemble...
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I also like the idea of a prospective knight requesting sponsorship from current knights, maybe not three, perhaps a primary and a second, w/the KC performing the Accolade, in the presence of all of the knights, if at all possible.
In fact, that could be one of the events for which we all assemble...
It's not a bad idea, and a lot of orders probably work that way. However, I'm cautious about requiring the KC to be present for everything, since a lot of what the group does should be fairly autonomous, IMHO. If we elect someone, and that person ends up having a busy work schedule for the rest of the year, I don't want that to hold things up. Maybe that's not really an issue, and perhaps it's better to keep records of things centralized by having it go through one person. We'll just have to decide. This also plays into how we deal with more distant members.
Ideally it would be nice to have as many knights as witnesses as possible, but I think only a small number should be required for the ceremony itself. Preferably the knight's original membership sponsors would be there.
The thing I like about having three knights required for the accolade is that it will help against having a couple of knights "power-leveling" a friend into the system, so to speak. Two knights can sponsor someone to join, but they still have to get a third (or even three separate knights) before the accolade.
What would be cool (though expensive) is if we were able to gift the new knight with a set of spurs. It would also naturally fit the three-knight ceremony, since one can be performing the accolade itself with the other two attaching the spurs, and so on. We'll have to think about the elements we want to include. Historically the accolade ceremony often included knights putting the spurs onto the new knight, and also girding his sword on. The one performing the accolade would of course "dub" the new knight with taps from the sword, and frequently there would be a firm strike at the end of the ceremony (a hard slap across the face, or punch to the chest). We can use any or all of these, and read up on additional elements we might like. (I think De Charny also describes specific clothes, like a purple mantle, white tunic, black hose, white belt, etc).
Something that would be easy to add is a certificate that can be framed, and have it signed and dated by the knights performing the accolade.
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BTW, I checked and OrderOfTheMarshal.org is available, as is the .com and .net versions.
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Ok, I think we should jump on that. Sir Edward, since you're the webmaster and know these things, what's required? Is there a fee associated with claiming that domain name? I'm all for donating in order to make that happen- maybe as founding members we can all contribute to that.
I also like the idea of making the knight ceremony more elaborate and memorable; gifting them w/spurs is a great idea- they can bring the sword they wish to be girded with (and given the Accolade with, although I think that should be for the KC's sword, imho) and of course they'd be responsible for the particular garb they wish to wear to the ceremony...point taken on the triumvirate of sponsorship, makes sense.
I agree on the KC not having to be present for everything, but the Accolade is the crowning achievement for an Initiate, like graduating high school, and as the KC, the giving of the Accolade should fall to him. I don't schedules being a bear as we probably won't be doing this on a monthly basis, right? We could always play it by ear...or pound it out into the Charter for posterity.
As for the firm strike at the end of the ceremony, as much as I like the idea of doing it a la KoH, I'm quite sure there will be those who won't take to it gladly. But this is a man's undertaking, as men, we can deal. I'm with whatever the consensus decides.
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OK, I've snagged the .com and .org. For non-profit orgs, I prefer the .org since that's what it's for. But since people tend to type .com out of habit, it's nice to have that one and redirect. For now I'll just point them here.
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I prefer the .org as well, besides meaning for organizations, I take it to mean 'organic' which is how I see this group, very real, very alive and subject to change, at least in terms of membership.
I was thinking, also, that maybe for us founding members, we should be inducted into this Order by you, Sir Edward- or at the very least, receive the Accolade so we'd all be on the same footing, so to speak.
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Sir Brian...I would kindly request that you disengage yourself from my inner mind as it seems you're saying what I was thinking re: manhood. Well said, Sir!
By all means good sir, I did not tarry overly long within those hallowed halls of thy mind although I did by happenstance catch a glimpse of your dream the other night and although seeing Kate Blanchet wearing armor while playing a game of twister against a Ferengi ninja was a bit unusual I am not one to be judgmental! ;)
Ah and speaking of spying upon another man’s inner thoughts, Sir Edward managed to channel mine with his suggestion:
What would be cool (though expensive) is if we were able to gift the new knight with a set of spurs.
Gilded of course and if the knight already owns a pair of spurs then we could provide some other appropriate gift of equal value to the spurs. The presenting of such gifts was customary and knightly.
As to whom should bestow the accolade I believe it should be the knight that sponsored the initiate if at all possible or the choice coming from the initiate entirely, it is after all their knighting and again any knight holds the authority to bestow knighthood upon another person. Besides I think it would be almost as meaningful for the knight bestowing the dubbing as it would be the one receiving the accolade.
As to the ceremony itself I also think the initiate should have a major say in the process, or if they wish to totally immerse themselves into the experience they could defer the entire ceremony to the knights bestowing the honor and follow what instructions they provide. This will also enable us to research and appreciate one of the most pivotal moments of knighthood.
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On second thought, you're quite right, Sir Brian- the initiate would of course ask the knight he wished to give him the Accolade, I'm all for that, as it would indeed be as meaningful.
You had me cracking up about Cate in armor playing twister w/a Ferengi ninja...what a visual! Who was the Ferengi? lol
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You had me cracking up about Cate in armor playing twister w/a Ferengi ninja...what a visual! Who was the Ferengi? lol
I vote Brunt, but hey, it's your dream! :)
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a8/Brunt_portrait.jpg)
Actually I think this sounds pretty good, to have the accolade be largely up to the new knight. Rather than set a ceremony in stone for the whole Order, make it a very personal affair.
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Same here. I'm loving how civil and respectful things have always remained on this forum, and how much everyone seems to be on the same page with this discussion in particular. You all rock. Every one of you.
F'off HAH jk hehehe
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I'm a fan of Rom myself...he's so self-effacing, sort of like the bumbling nobleman who changes into the Black Knight when the King has need. That's me!
Ok, so I'm not self-effacing per se, but I am very humble. I believe this to be true. lol
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I'd be willing to join a group as long as it's in the tri state area and not too far away from where I live. I kinda need a "group" to join anyway, this way I'll meet more people at ren faires and forge new friendships ect. I did attempt to start my own group with my friends but it fell apart within a month due to lack of funds and my friends not being all that interested in it. Still think most the people on this site are interested enough for it to go somewhere.
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As I`ve only just had chance to look through this thread, please forgive my very late input.
Nice job on the charter Sir Ed. ;)
I think that what you are doing is very noble and will almost definitely bring you all together with your common goals and ideals.
Having a level playing field of ranks for members is a fantastic idea, just a plain and simple order of knights.
A probationary period for newer members (squire,candidate) would give them the oportunity to get a reasonable standard of kit together and absorb the ideals of the order, also to see if the group is actually for them. It would also give the other members an oportunity to see if the latest "newbie" is suitable and fits in with the rest of the order.
One thing I would suggest is that you don`t let your new group get too large as this breeds to so many other problems ( I`m sure you have all had experience of "group politics" ::) )
Anyway I would be privilaged if you would cosider it possible for me to be an honorary member??
G
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Awesome stuff! Another vote for Sir Ed as the 1st knight Commander!
I think that the knighting ceremony should have the KC present. I think that he should also have to approve all applicants for knighthood. So even the especially well-connected shall be denied their accursed power-leveling!
And I think for matters of keeping things simple, the KC should have centralized. Really, were not keeping inventory of a warehouse here. Really, for this whole thing you might only need a list of names, rank, email, kit completion and era, additional info as needed.
And there should be a second in command, w/ a cool name, like Knights Captain, or Knights Marshal, Master-at-arms, ect.
This could really take the pressure off the KC to absolutely be at every single thing, and free up alot of breathing space for him.
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OK, some good ideas here.
Do we feel that a basic probationary period makes sense, and then after that it's largely up to the new member to decide when they feel ready? I'm OK with it going through the KC, mostly as a formality, but also as a potential "veto" if it looks like "power-leveling" so to speak.
Having a second in command isn't a bad idea. How would this person be selected? Appointed by the KC? The runner up in the KC election? I could see this office primarily functioning as a stand-in when the KC isn't present, etc.
If necessary we can create other offices down the line. For instance, if we need to have a treasurer, PR person, or whatever. But we can cross those bridges when we get to them. For the time being, I don't see any money involved for instance.
One thing I would suggest is that you don`t let your new group get too large as this breeds to so many other problems ( I`m sure you have all had experience of "group politics" ::) )
That's true, and it's a mistake that a lot of groups can make-- Growing too fast, too soon. I think once our core membership is established, we'll have an opportunity to set a precedent for our way of doing things, and the occasional new member will need to grow into what we've established as such.
Anyway I would be privilaged if you would cosider it possible for me to be an honorary member??
Oh, I think we can work something out. :)
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OK, some good ideas here.
Do we feel that a basic probationary period makes sense, and then after that it's largely up to the new member to decide when they feel ready? I'm OK with it going through the KC, mostly as a formality, but also as a potential "veto" if it looks like "power-leveling" so to speak.
I'm good with that...it gives the applicant time to feel us out and vice versa...I doubt anyone who approaches won't be of a similar mindset, but maybe their ideation may differ in such a way as to require further consideration, who knows. I'll leave that to the KC to muddle out.
Having a second in command isn't a bad idea. How would this person be selected? Appointed by the KC? The runner up in the KC election? I could see this office primarily functioning as a stand-in when the KC isn't present, etc.
If necessary we can create other offices down the line. For instance, if we need to have a treasurer, PR person, or whatever. But we can cross those bridges when we get to them. For the time being, I don't see any money involved for instance.
Here's where I am concerned...I thought the whole point was for all of us to be equals...I figured the KC would embody most of what was mentioned (PR person, treasurer if needed, etc) - and he could of course delegate if others are willing to take on the task at hand...which I don't see as being a problem, we're all here for the advancement of the Order and its ideals, right? A hierarchy would only mirror the SCA and other similar organizations- all of which most of us have had some experience with, positive or otherwise.
Second-in-command...how about we call that one the Seneschal? So we'd have the Knight Commander, his Seneschal and the other Knights of the Order...the flatter it is, the better it'll be, I think. As for how he is appointed, maybe the KC could make that choice since this person would essentially be his backup? I should add, if one of us proves to be a capable and efficient administrator, he may find himself chosen for Seneschal on more than one KC's tenure, even if they've already served as such. Not necessarily a problem for me, but it might be for that gifted admin. lol
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Here's where I am concerned...I thought the whole point was for all of us to be equals...I figured the KC would embody most of what was mentioned (PR person, treasurer if needed, etc) - and he could of course delegate if others are willing to take on the task at hand...which I don't see as being a problem, we're all here for the advancement of the Order and its ideals, right? A hierarchy would only mirror the SCA and other similar organizations- all of which most of us have had some experience with, positive or otherwise.
Second-in-command...how about we call that one the Seneschal? So we'd have the Knight Commander, his Seneschal and the other Knights of the Order...the flatter it is, the better it'll be, I think. As for how he is appointed, maybe the KC could make that choice since this person would essentially be his backup? I should add, if one of us proves to be a capable and efficient administrator, he may find himself chosen for Seneschal on more than one KC's tenure, even if they've already served as such. Not necessarily a problem for me, but it might be for that gifted admin. lol
Oh yeah, for other offices, I'm thinking WAY down the line, if there's just more going on than we can reasonably expect one person to do. I'm thinking a lot of other jobs will be completely volunteer rather than assigned as jobs or positions. If someone is an artist, they could draw up a banner or poster or something. I'll probably end up being the webmaster just because I'm already doing that sort of thing, etc.
As for a second in command, here's another idea. Instead of it being an "office" or "position", rather make it more like a temporary deputy. That is, if we need one, we can appoint one for the month. The rest of the time there isn't one.
I agree. The more flat we keep the organization, the better. I really don't want to get bogged down this rules, ranks, titles, positions, etc. But just for practical reasons, we have to consider the options and make sure we write down the rules so everyone's on the same page.
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Ok, I feel better now that you've made that clear. A month-to-month deputy who performs duties as needed is one way to go...or, the KC and Seneschal can be voted in at the same time, sorta like Prez and VP but that may be a bit much. I'm good with either way you go.
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Trust me, layers of offices and positions will bogg us down mand make this more like work than fun. I've been there. *shudders*
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Ah and speaking of spying upon another man’s inner thoughts, Sir Edward managed to channel mine with his suggestion:
What would be cool (though expensive) is if we were able to gift the new knight with a set of spurs.
Gilded of course and if the knight already owns a pair of spurs then we could provide some other appropriate gift of equal value to the spurs. The presenting of such gifts was customary and knightly.
It looks like we'd be looking at about $60 - $85 per set of spurs from Raymond's Quiet Press (https://www.quietpress.com/spurs.html (https://www.quietpress.com/spurs.html)) for gold plated and strapped. That's pretty affordable. If the sponsoring and/or accolade-performing knights chip in, then this is extremely doable. And it's cheaper than the brass ones from Revival (http://www.revivalclothing.com/spurs.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/spurs.aspx)). The gold-plating is the best option anyway since they stay bright and shiny. Brass tarnishes in like a day.
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Yeah that was the source I was thinking of as well. By the time a member is ready to be knighted we would have a pretty good idea as to what period harness they have developed and could purchase the appropriate type of spurs to coincide.
I am in agreement with the more linear arrangement of positions and responsibilities and in due time it would be cool to see such functions as Marshal of the List, Knight of Ceremonies, etc.
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Think I'll get me a set...I'm already a knight so that's acceptable w/regard to the group, no? I like the idea of the formation of other offices as necessity and time allow...let's keep it simple for the interim.
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BTW, placeholder website: http://orderofthemarshal.org/ (http://orderofthemarshal.org/)
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Think I'll get me a set...I'm already a knight so that's acceptable w/regard to the group, no? I like the idea of the formation of other offices as necessity and time allow...let's keep it simple for the interim.
Yeah, if you'd like to get a set, please feel free. As far as I'm concerned, we're all knights, but we'll probably want to think about knighting each other properly once we get everything figured out. But I'm open to suggestions here.
BTW, it just occurred to me... color on color. Hah, violation of the rule of tincture (unless I'm overlooking something about having a charge over a division):
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/william_marshal_shield_130x160.png)
Also, it looks like this is the arms of his son, Sir William Marshal the 2nd Earl of Pembroke, as shown on the Magna Carta. What I'm trying to figure out is if he inherited it from his father, or if it was unique to him. If it's the latter, I'd like to find the arms of the Marshal we're specifically honoring.
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I think the 2nd in command should be chosen by the KC. The whole point is to have someone represent he KC while he's not present right? I think that the KC will best know who will do a good job representing him, the one whom we elected.
And I think that the 2nd in command would be our equal. He's just another knight with a fancy name while the KC is present. The only time the 2nd receives any extra powers is when the KC is not present, and then he simply does everything the KC does. I'm sure that the spot will command some respect and authority, but not any more than any other well acclaimed senior member.
and ooh, I like this idea about the spurs!
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Think I'll get me a set...I'm already a knight so that's acceptable w/regard to the group, no? I like the idea of the formation of other offices as necessity and time allow...let's keep it simple for the interim.
Yeah, if you'd like to get a set, please feel free. As far as I'm concerned, we're all knights, but we'll probably want to think about knighting each other properly once we get everything figured out. But I'm open to suggestions here.
BTW, it just occurred to me... color on color. Hah, violation of the rule of tincture (unless I'm overlooking something about having a charge over a division):
(http://orderofthemarshal.org/images/william_marshal_shield_130x160.png)
Also, it looks like this is the arms of his son, Sir William Marshal the 2nd Earl of Pembroke, as shown on the Magna Carta. What I'm trying to figure out is if he inherited it from his father, or if it was unique to him. If it's the latter, I'd like to find the arms of the Marshal we're specifically honoring.
I believe the arms of William the elder were simply the red lion rampant on a field of green and yellow...all the extra decoration on the green side appears to have been The Younger's addition. I could be wrong, been known to happen. ;)
And I think I'll wait to see what the decision boils down to re: knighting of ourselves.
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I think that keeping as few official offices as possible would be good at least in the begining. As the order grows, we made need to appoint other persons to assist the Knight Commander in seeing to the affairs of the order, dependant on how big and organized we become. SHOULD we ever become a large organization with multinational members or even just members spread across the eastern US, seeing to the affairs of the order may become too much to expect of one person, is all I'm thinking. I like the idea of the Knight Commander appointing a Senechesal to represent him in his absence, though I also think this should be a case by case appointment. In other words, if the Knight Commander can not make a meeting due to schedule conflict or distance, should we be so spread out, he would appoint someone to represent him at that particular event.
I like the idea of presenting spurs upon Knighting of a member. Maybe I'm crazy here, but I kinda like the silver look, I'm not much of a fan of gold, so when I get my set I think I'll select silver plating. Before I do that though, I have alot of work to get done on my Teutonic theme.
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It certainly is your choice Matt however I would like to point out that the metal of the spurs is very significant.
Gilded/Gold was for knights only, Silver was for squires and iron was for men-at-arms or sergeants. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spur#History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spur#History)
Here is another great source of information about the significance of the spurs.
http://muckley.us/Knighting.pdf (http://muckley.us/Knighting.pdf)
The Meaning of the Spurs:
The third knight then explains the symbolism of the spurs. He says: " A knights golden spurs symbolize many things, for by placing
the precious metal near his feet, he shows his disdain for worldly things, and his duty to commit no evil that might disgrace his
order. His spurs are sharpened to goad his steed just as a knight should goad the people to virtue, but a virtuous knight should also
make himself feared by the wicked."
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I've been combing the net for a picture of the original Marshal arms, but can only find those of the second earl. I think the extra stuff in the green field in the prior example is just artistic license. I found this image of the 2nd earl's arms, and it's much more simplistic. If the arms were inherited, I believe they would have looked like this at the time.
Also, I found this link to useful site on Marshal history. http://www.williammarshal.com/intro.html (http://www.williammarshal.com/intro.html) The entry for 1164 on the "William Marshal Timeline" page really illustrates the kind of man we have chosen to emulate.
I agree that we should keep things fairly flat officer-wise for now as there are just not that many of us. It's kind of silly for a dozen guys to have eight officers (just making those numbers up BTW). Obviously as the Order expands (which I hope happens in a well-considered manner), this will need to change.
Sir Edward, excellent start to the webpage. You are truely talented in web design (as this site can attest).
Loove the idea of spurs :)
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so who's making the round table for all of the equal knights to sit around? and where should we store it?
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sorry i haven't been on much to help. this is good stuff though!
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so who's making the round table for all of the equal knights to sit around? and where should we store it?
Well, if you'll hurry up and build a great hall, we could put it there. :)
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I am more partial to Order of Modern Chivalry, as ties into the forums here and I like the name better, but since the domain has been purchased, it's moot now anyway. :)
Sir Edward, if you want help with some of the CSS, HTML or graphics work, let me know and I will see what I can do. Depending on where it's hosted (and the tech available) I may be able to make something to allow each member to have a profile that they can update with pictures, bio, location, etc. ColdFusion/MSSQL is a cakewalk for me, and I have hosting space available with that in place already if you want me to host it (you retain domain name control and ownership, of course).
In regards to powerleveling/knighting:
* Perhaps we could have people enter as a squire, and have them eligible to be knighted only if they have assembled their "kit" (with the 5/10 foot rule in mind, whether soft kit or hard kit). I think the knighting ceremony should be done while they are wearing their kit, though of course subject to change based on the knight conferring. We could also take photos to post on the website, if we can find a good location that won't look too out of place. Which reminds me to post another thread...
* I think a very flat membership with only 3 levels would be best; Knight Commander, Knights, and Squires. In the event the Knight Commander has schedule conflicts and is unable to fulfill his duties, he should, at that time, appoint a KC pro-tem, to fill his spot until he is able to return. That way, there is no worrying of Seneschal, Marshal, or any other "offices", and we keep as flat of a membership structure as we can. Which, I think is part of the goal for forming this new society?
* In the event that we acquire a larger, more spread out membership, we could form rules for it at that time. Something along the lines of "At least 5 members in a local group", a "Regional KC" for that group (answerable to the Master KC (or relevant traditional term for that position). "Remote" membership outside of the local groups would be fine, but they would not be able to hold a position higher than Knight. That's another bridge for another time.
* For membership time frame for knighting, it should just be a piece of the whole picture; some members may do more in 2 months of membership than others do in 12 months. I think a group vote of Yay/Nay/Neutral could be held among the existing knights for the candidate's readiness.
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James, I think you bring up some very good points there. I also think it is pretty much along the lines of what we are all thinking, you just made a better point of it. I agree that we definitely need to set things up so that there is room for us to adapt to changes in geography and membership down the road.
Brian, I understand the symbology of the gold guilded spurs and I suppose I really should get a pair that way, but for whatever reason I personally find silver more appealling. I just don't care for gold or yellow color. Maybe I'm just odd that way, certainly wouldn't be the first time I've been called wierd ::).
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I am more partial to Order of Modern Chivalry, as ties into the forums here and I like the name better, but since the domain has been purchased, it's moot now anyway. :)
Sir Edward, if you want help with some of the CSS, HTML or graphics work, let me know and I will see what I can do. Depending on where it's hosted (and the tech available) I may be able to make something to allow each member to have a profile that they can update with pictures, bio, location, etc. ColdFusion/MSSQL is a cakewalk for me, and I have hosting space available with that in place already if you want me to host it (you retain domain name control and ownership, of course).
I'm not married to the title, and we can always change it. It just seemed that there was a good consensus forming behind it. I paid for one year on the domain registrations, so it's not like there's a lot of money involved so far either. :) Either way, this will at least get us started and we can work on a website/tools.
I think we're thinking along the same lines for the website here. I'd love to have photos, and a membership roster with heraldry and the like. A voting tool would be very useful, though we can always use the forum's voting capability too (I assume, since I haven't checked it out yet).
Assuming I continue hosting it, my server is running linux and I have mySQL and PHP available on the back-end. I do my coding in Perl. I'm not exactly a CSS guru, and I do most of my HTML in HTML 1.1 or thereabouts (yes, it's evil, I still format pages with tables! But I'm gradually getting better) :)
The hosting costs me nothing on my end. I have a virtual server that I used for all of my websites, and I'm only using about 50% of the available disk and about 4% of the monthly bandwidth for everything else I host.
So I guess we'll just need to decide who's hosting it, and coding it, and what technologies we're using, all as one big decision. I'm willing to hand it off if you'd like to take a stab at it. There are parts I'd like to retain access to, like the bylaws page I'm working on. We can always have some split hosting too if we use different subdomains.
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BTW, I've added some more starter pages. Right now the membership roster page is just stubbed in with some simplistic info. If I've left anyone out, just chime in here.
http://orderofthemarshal.org/roster.html (http://orderofthemarshal.org/roster.html)
I left the "sir" portions as they appear on our forum names, but started everyone listed as Initiates. We'll have to decide how to handle this part. Some of us have been knights for quite some time, but obviously the order itself is starting from scratch. Also some of us know each other better than others... not to mention there aren't any Order knights yet with which to grab three to give you a ceremony until we knight someone. Chicken and the egg, if you will.
Thoughts?
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Also, I found this link to useful site on Marshal history. http://www.williammarshal.com/intro.html (http://www.williammarshal.com/intro.html) The entry for 1164 on the "William Marshal Timeline" page really illustrates the kind of man we have chosen to emulate.
Yeah, that entry is very good. The whole site is pretty informative. Between that and the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Marshal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Marshal)) you can get a nice quick overview of the relevant history and his life overall. He must really have had an amazing life. He took part in some very interesting history, and played a central role. And he was still kicking butt on the battlefield at an age of 75!
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I left the "sir" portions as they appear on our forum names, but started everyone listed as Initiates. We'll have to decide how to handle this part. Some of us have been knights for quite some time, but obviously the order itself is starting from scratch. Also some of us know each other better than others... not to mention there aren't any Order knights yet with which to grab three to give you a ceremony until we knight someone. Chicken and the egg, if you will.
Thoughts?
I thought about this a little more, and I have some possible ideas. I'm still open to other suggestions too. Here's what I thought of:
- We make everyone on the list Honorary Knights, and define that as knights who have not received the accolade from the Order (think of it like knights who have come from other orders). It could permit them to participate in accolades, but not vote (the latter part being important I think if we ever use "honorary" status for more people down the line). Folks would be free to remain in this state as long as they want/need before getting the accolade as per the rules.
- We could start off by knighting just a few to get the minimum three for an accolade going, and let everyone else follow the normal path via the rules. I was thinking if we go this route, I'd grab Brian, Wolf, and Paladin since I know them through faire/elsewhere, have seen their kits, and believe them to be men of honor. That would be 4 of us, letting us each have the minimum of 3 for an accolade. We knight each other, and the ball is rolling.
- And the third idea is more like the first, except instead of giving the rank to everyone on the list, instead use the honor-system. Anyone who feels like they're a knight already could email me a brief description of why, and a photo of their kit, and then I'd update their status. Then everyone else would still be an Initiate until they follow the normal path.
Thoughts?
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Those are some truly grand ideas Ed, I think all three methods could be utilized.
We make everyone on the list Honorary Knights, and define that as knights who have not received the accolade from the Order (think of it like knights who have come from other orders). It could permit them to participate in accolades, but not vote (the latter part being important I think if we ever use "honorary" status for more people down the line). Folks would be free to remain in this state as long as they want/need before getting the accolade as per the rules.
1.) I think all our current participating members on the forum (in any discussion no matter how often) should be offered this status. Members who have joined yet not made a single post or haven't posted in X amount of months could be entered as an initiate or honorary squire.
We could start off by knighting just a few to get the minimum three for an accolade going, and let everyone else follow the normal path via the rules. I was thinking if we go this route, I'd grab Brian, Wolf, and Paladin since I know them through faire/elsewhere, have seen their kits, and believe them to be men of honor. That would be 4 of us, letting us each have the minimum of 3 for an accolade. We knight each other, and the ball is rolling.
2.) We could do this easily enough if for no other purpose than to fulfill the requirements of those members seeking to make the transition from honorary to voting status knights. - I would be most honored to accept such a station you are proposing although the expediency of us living in close proximity to those you've nominated is convenient as well! ;)
- I would suggest another name to add to that potential initial listing is Sir Andrew. A most honorable knight and man of impeccable integrity.
And the third idea is more like the first, except instead of giving the rank to everyone on the list, instead use the honor-system. Anyone who feels like they're a knight already could email me a brief description of why, and a photo of their kit, and then I'd update their status. Then everyone else would still be an Initiate until they follow the normal path.
3.) I believe this method would work out the best for those members who live far away but are already well established knights in their own right. There will hopefully be more wishing to join our order as time goes by.
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The page looks amazing, Sir Edward! Whatever we end up calling ourselves, it's an honor to be listed in such fine company!
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Awesome! I am flattered to be considered in the company of such noble knights, even if I did but my head in this discussion!
And I support the initial knighting of those 3 and us going the normal route.
But all the ideas are good, this is really falling together well! :)
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I also agree with your choices for the first knights, Sir Edward. You four gentlemen are, without a doubt, the very heart of this forum.
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:) coolness.
wondering if it to be wise to added a virtue that each of the knight holds. ie: sir brian: honor, sir charles (the wolf): strength, sir edward: truth, sir paladin: valor etc etc (not saying those are their strengths or highest virtues etc, still be neat :)
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Wow, I'm gone one day and look at what's occurred. I think it is safe to say we're all of a similar mind w/regards to our new Order; love the roster page Sir Edward, it is a nice way of telling those of us who haven't done so to come up with our own coat of arms so that we might post them up as well. Really no reason why I don't have one, pure laziness but this is just the impetus I need.
Still love 'Order of the Marshal' for our name, just thought I'd put that out there. I'm really honored to be among the Founding Four as it were, and I'm excited at the prospect of this Order becoming a reality. All my life I've dreamed of being a part of something like this, you know?
I like Sir Wolf's idea too, that each of us could espouse a single knightly virtue (well, we espouse them all, but each would have a specific virtue associated with them principally) - but that could lead to 'classes' so to speak. For instance, we'll take Sir Edward's truth, and let's say there are a number of knights who would choose this as their primary virtue and x number of initiates sign up; what I'm thinking is we could end up with different 'jousting teams' as it were...is that necessarily a bad thing? Could be...depends on how its handled. I think as knights, we're all competitive in nature in some way, shape or form...so long as it remains friendly, you know, no 'that Valor group over there are a bunch of silly wankers' type of commentary being tossed about. Just my thoughts on it.
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This is shaping up really nicely.
A massive pat on the back to Sir Ed, and all of you who have took the bull by the horns and had an active part in formulating the back bone.
G
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...took the bull by the horns...
I'm sorry, this brought the movie Dodgeball to mind; you know the painting White Goodman's got in his office with him holding the bull back by the horns? He says "...yea, that's a metaphor...but it actually did happen." LOL
Sorry, just sprang to mind.
Back on topic, this is great, just plain great so far.
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- We could start off by knighting just a few to get the minimum three for an accolade going, and let everyone else follow the normal path via the rules. I was thinking if we go this route, I'd grab Brian, Wolf, and Paladin since I know them through faire/elsewhere, have seen their kits, and believe them to be men of honor. That would be 4 of us, letting us each have the minimum of 3 for an accolade. We knight each other, and the ball is rolling.
I think this would be the best towards keeping the "equality" and low number of "tiers". Honorary Knights brings in another set of what can they do, what can't they do, how are they "ranked", and so on. That's also the core group of people I would vote towards being the founding members.
Sir Edward, I'll email you to further discuss the hosting, so I don't derail the thread further. :)
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I too like the idea of the initial four choosed by Sir Edward to begin the order. I would propose, though, that the title Honorary Knight be replaced with the title Knight Errant. It would remain the same as originally proposed, it would simply be a different term. Knight Errant has a more period feel to it, in my opinion. Once I assemble my mid-1300s kit, then perhaps I would seek a change in status. Until then, I don't quite feel like I belong in the official "Knight" category.
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Well, my thought is that a true Knight Errant is one who is not associated with an Order at all. An "Honorary Knight" wouldn't really be a rank as such. My thinking here is that it can be a stepping stone for the initial members, but in the future would serve the purpose of bringing on people who want to participate online but can't physically (because of living on the other side of the ocean, for instance). So having a bunch of them would be, ideally, a temporary thing, with the main function of that level being to recognize someone as a knight without having to hold up the Order's business on their behalf. I don't know what rules we'd have for how to offer "honorary" status to someone, or whatever, so it's still all just an idea anyway.
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- I would suggest another name to add to that potential initial listing is Sir Andrew. A most honorable knight and man of impeccable integrity.
Oh, absolutely. I haven't seen him chime in here yet, but he'd certainly be welcome!
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Hey, this might sound a bit stupid but how does one go about making a coat of arms? I understand purposes of heraldry and such, and I have a few ideas that I like, but how do you get your coat of arms on the computer? Because I'd really like a shield by my name on that roster ;D
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Hey, this might sound a bit stupid but how does one go about making a coat of arms? I understand purposes of heraldry and such, and I have a few ideas that I like, but how do you get your coat of arms on the computer? Because I'd really like a shield by my name on that roster ;D
Sadly, the best way to do it is just in a graphics program, like Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro or something along those lines. The rules of heraldry can be picked up pretty easily with the SCA's primer on it here: http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/ (http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/)
And you can do some experimentation and simple design with a program called Blazon95 (get the Windows 95 version): http://www.harnmaster.us/blazon.html (http://www.harnmaster.us/blazon.html)
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Lots of useful stuff can be found here: http://www.heraldicclipart.com/ (http://www.heraldicclipart.com/)
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Hey, this might sound a bit stupid but how does one go about making a coat of arms? I understand purposes of heraldry and such, and I have a few ideas that I like, but how do you get your coat of arms on the computer? Because I'd really like a shield by my name on that roster ;D
Just make sure you are following at least the rules of tincture and you'll be ok...Don't be like me and go so far as to paint your shield and have the charges put on a surcoat before you realize you've made that major heraldic faux pas! :)
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Don't feel bad, Sir Brian. Heraldry is so convoluted, the faux pas are quite "rampant" :D
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Don't feel bad, Sir Brian. Heraldry is so convoluted, the faux pas are quite "rampant" :D
OUCH! Who would've guessed a pun could deliver such pain! ;)
Perhaps that is where the word "punishment" comes from! :D
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Hey, this might sound a bit stupid but how does one go about making a coat of arms? I understand purposes of heraldry and such, and I have a few ideas that I like, but how do you get your coat of arms on the computer? Because I'd really like a shield by my name on that roster ;D
I used (http://www.inkwellideas.com/coat_of_arms/free_coads.shtml) to make the shield that is my avatar.
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Blazons, tinctures, it is a lot to absorb!
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One thing to keep in mind, IMHO, is to avoid falling into some of the traps that the SCA heralds complain about. Such as working in overly-modern charges (such as ice cream cones), or getting carried away with an overly complex design. There's what's referred to as "resumé heraldry", where people try to fit in a large number of charges at once (such as "well, I'm a blacksmith so I want an anvil, and I fight so I want a sword, and I was born during a full moon so I need a moon on there").
I'm guilty of the latter to a certain extent. I had 3 main charges I wanted to use, though I considered designs with only one or two of them before settling on what I'm using now.
But what a symbol means to you might differ from their historical heraldic meaning, so that's another angle to approach it from if you're lacking in ideas. You can start with a meaning and pick an animal or object to use accordingly.
But also keep in mind that whatever you come up with, you may wish to paint into shields or stitch onto fabric. Animals are hard to do. Multiple animals makes that harder. Though of course, stencils can be an option here to make that a lot easier.
Historically, particularly in the earlier parts of the period, heraldry was often more geometric with maybe only one or two charges.
Take a look at the Dering Roll of Arms (circa 1270-1280) below:
(http://modernchivalry.org/pictures/dering-roll2.jpg)
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Huh...so I could go with 'quarterly sable and azure' and leave it at that? Then it'd match my black/blue surcoat you see in my avatar pic. Thought of adding 'a dragon sejant gardant' smack in the middle of it, countercharged to stand out.
Its like learning a new language, all this terminology. LOL
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Yep, you could. Just know that "quarterly" (or "per cross") is extremely common. If you want to register your arms in the SCA, it has to have several points of difference from any other registered arms. If it's too simple, it will be hard to get it to pass. But it's a common misconception that it has to be complex. Simple is good. :)
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BTW, the Dering Roll of Arms is the oldest known roll of arms to exist from England. It was made famous by being altered later, by Dering, to forge a knightly lineage for himself.
But it's serving as a sort of model for what I want to do with the membership page on the website. A nice big roll of arms. The ORder of Selohaar does this too: http://selohaar.org/rollofarms.htm (http://selohaar.org/rollofarms.htm)
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BTW, if you guys have higher-resolution versions of your heraldry, I can use that to make prettier images for our Roll of Arms. Otherwise, I can try to redraw and reshape what you have already, but it probably won't look as good.
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I really like the look of that Selohaar roll of arms page! Something like that would be great for the Order's site. Are you wanting the shields shaped like Selohaar's, or some other shape? We should try to be uniform on that. Also, how high a resolution do you need? One last thing, on the Ordre's page, I noticed several of our arm still have the white backgrounds along the bottom. Is there anything we need to do about that when we submit the high res versions, or will just cut that out when you paste them into the page?
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~grahamrussell/russell/russellcofabig.jpg i couldn't get the blazon or the other one to work right. here is mine sorta. my scallops are dark grey as is the background metal where it shows white. the lion is all red. as seen:
(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47/reenactthis/13thc%20Knight/DSCN1764.jpg)
without flash
(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47/reenactthis/13thc%20Knight/DSCN1763.jpg)
with flash
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I really like the look of that Selohaar roll of arms page! Something like that would be great for the Order's site. Are you wanting the shields shaped like Selohaar's, or some other shape? We should try to be uniform on that. Also, how high a resolution do you need? One last thing, on the Ordre's page, I noticed several of our arm still have the white backgrounds along the bottom. Is there anything we need to do about that when we submit the high res versions, or will just cut that out when you paste them into the page?
Yep, I went back and removed the white border (added transparency in a PNG) on them after my last post. Right now I've just been trying to make them more or less the same size (fit within a 200x200 box). Anything bigger helps, ideally at least twice that size. Eventually I'd like to make them all uniform in shape too, but that does mean more complex re-drawing.
Wolf, I'll see if I can hack together one for yours.
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Wolf, I'll see if I can hack together one for yours.
Done.
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/sirwolf.png)
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hey thanks ! i couldn't get the colors to change on the scallops
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NICE...and point taken about differentiation from my own if I want to register it w/SCA.
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I'm going ahead and buying the pro version of that java based COA editor. I think that's the better one to standardize on (over Blazon95, though the latter can teach you a lot about enforcing the rules of tincture, etc). I'm using it to do the basic design and then doing touch-ups after the fact, like adding Sir Wolf's scallops.
Even the free version generates the images at a good size for web use though.
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I put up Sir Brian's as well:
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/sirbrian.png)
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I also redrew these. Let me know what you guys think:
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/ed-coa04_171x200.png) (http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/theredknight.png) (http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/jamesanderson.png) (http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/gerardderhodes.png)
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Looks great. I'll see what I can do this week about getting a functional roster app set up. Standardizing the arms by using the same app to draw them all is a perfect idea. :)
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I'm running into limitations in it, such as not being able to define a "section" for ordinaries and the like. So for Sir Brian's I had to hack in the wavy edge manually. But using one program as the basis and then editing from there in a graphics editor seems to be the way to go.
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Hey man, that's looking good! I'm still working on mine...couldn't get Blazon to load for some reason...
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OK, I blazoned the existing ones on the roll of arms, and put blanks in for everyone elses shields.
BTW, also found a good primer on heraldry, and it gets into some of the more complex terminology too: http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Primer.Page1 (http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Primer.Page1)
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Hey, cool link...reading it now.
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a good simple book to check out on heraldry is "The Complete Book on Heraldry" by Stephen Slater.
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BTW, the Dering Roll of Arms is the oldest known roll of arms to exist from England. It was made famous by being altered later, by Dering, to forge a knightly lineage for himself.
But it's serving as a sort of model for what I want to do with the membership page on the website. A nice big roll of arms. The ORder of Selohaar does this too: http://selohaar.org/rollofarms.htm (http://selohaar.org/rollofarms.htm)
Rough crack at it: http://www.jba3.com/modernchiv/rollofarms/pages/index
Could use that format and the standard "roster" format on the link on that same page. Both are coming from a database, so no worries of having to double-update any pages. :D
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Thank you, Sir Edward!!!! I was unable to get the ermines in the cinquefoils with the on-line version and was wondering how to do it manually without buggering it up. That looks AWESOME!!
UPDATE: Just saw the Order's roll page, and it looks amazing! Getting very excited!
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Wow...I really need to get rolling on mine. Might need your help if you please, Sir Edward.
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Rough crack at it: http://www.jba3.com/modernchiv/rollofarms/pages/index
Could use that format and the standard "roster" format on the link on that same page. Both are coming from a database, so no worries of having to double-update any pages. :D
Man, that's looking awesome! I can cut the A record over whenever we feel the site is looking good, I'll just need the IP(s) of course. We can continue to work that out in email. :)
Wow...I really need to get rolling on mine. Might need your help if you please, Sir Edward.
Absolutely. If you want to take it over to email, we can work on it. Ultimately it'll be up to you as to what you want, but I'll be happy to discuss options and help draw it up.
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Thank you, Sir Edward!!!! I was unable to get the ermines in the cinquefoils with the on-line version and was wondering how to do it manually without buggering it up. That looks AWESOME!!
UPDATE: Just saw the Order's roll page, and it looks amazing! Getting very excited!
You're welcome! :) Actually that one took a bit more manual hacking since I wanted to change the angle of the chevron to be lower than what the program did, and the ermine spots all had to be done manually, and even the little red centers in the cinquefoils too. :)
I kept higher-res versions of them for you:
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/theredknight_large.png) (http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/redcinqafoil.png)
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Rough crack at it: http://www.jba3.com/modernchiv/rollofarms/pages/index
Could use that format and the standard "roster" format on the link on that same page. Both are coming from a database, so no worries of having to double-update any pages. :D
Man, that's looking awesome! I can cut the A record over whenever we feel the site is looking good, I'll just need the IP(s) of course. We can continue to work that out in email. :)
Wow...I really need to get rolling on mine. Might need your help if you please, Sir Edward.
Absolutely. If you want to take it over to email, we can work on it. Ultimately it'll be up to you as to what you want, but I'll be happy to discuss options and help draw it up.
Awesome! What's the best email to get to you?
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Awesome! What's the best email to get to you?
The contact info in the "NOTE" section up at the top works just fine: "bones at necrobones dot net". Or, @modernchivalry.org, or @toton.org. The username is "bones" in all cases. :)
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Got it. Interesting that you'd choose Bones...its one of my wife's favorite tv shows. Mine too. :)
Hit you up later, man.
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Alright, here's my go. What you all think?
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Alright, here's my go. What you all think?
Pretty cool. :) I'm thinking of how to Blazon it. I think the dark grey would heraldicly be considered sable (black), so it would be something like "Per pale argent and sable, a double headed eagle displayed between two crosses flory counterchanged."
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Sir Nathan, very well done. I like the duality of the image itself...very nice. In fact, my proposed shield will share some similiarities, I'm torn between quartering or the way you did it; and I'm looking to incorporate my charges in the top left and bottom right of the quarterings. I'm hoping to use the Jerusalem cross and two leopards passant (top left, bottom right respectively).
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Yeah, It's sable. Thanks, Im torn between that and this one.
Which do you guys think I should go with?
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Well now...I like that one too...although I think I like the first one better. What is the significance of the second one for you?
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Right now I'm leaning more towards the 2nd one. The crosses symbolizes a devotion to my religion, Catholicism (the Jerusalem cross ties in w/ the crusades, a time of much fervor). The tower symbolizes fortitude, and the oak represents strength, nobility, and authority (of my lord, not mine).
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Why not yours? Or did you mean The Lord, not just a lord?
I like that. Mine's simpler, the Jerusalem cross signifying my strength of faith in God, and a dragon (or gryphon) which symbolizes the wisdom to be ruled by my faith, my heart or my mind - whatever the situation calls for.
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Rough crack at it: http://www.jba3.com/modernchiv/rollofarms/pages/index
Could use that format and the standard "roster" format on the link on that same page. Both are coming from a database, so no worries of having to double-update any pages. :D
Man, that's looking awesome! I can cut the A record over whenever we feel the site is looking good, I'll just need the IP(s) of course. We can continue to work that out in email. :)
Sounds good. Email it is. :)
Yeah, It's sable. Thanks, Im torn between that and this one.
Which do you guys think I should go with?
I think this one looks more historically based than the first one.
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i like em both. the first looks cool but the second is more historical and less umm "busy" i think either way they rock for ideas
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The first one could be made more historical by spacing the charges a little more so they don't touch. Then it would be fine, and I like it.
The second one does look a little "busy" to me in that it now has three types of charges filling all four quarters. I'd either simplify it or use a different division to get the effect you want. But it certainly is viable.
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Heh, just for kicks I made one for William Marshal.
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/williammarshalshield.png)
I think at events we should reserve an empty chair for The Marshal. :) (oh man, now it's like the Siege Perilous seat, reserved for the non-existent "perfect knight").
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Man, I just have to say, I really like Christopher Valli's, Chris Torres's and Catriona Hughes's arms on the Selohaar site.
(http://selohaar.org/heraldry/chris3.GIF) (http://selohaar.org/heraldry/ChrisTorres3.gif) (http://selohaar.org/heraldry/Catriona2.gif)
(http://selohaar.org/rollofarms.htm)
EDIT: I just noticed that Chris Torres has a violation of tincture. That grail is metal on metal. Heh. I think you can get away with that if the chalice is "Proper" instead of "Or" though.
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Heh, just for kicks I made one for William Marshal.
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/williammarshalshield.png)
I think at events we should reserve an empty chair for The Marshal. :) (oh man, now it's like the Siege Perilous seat, reserved for the non-existent "perfect knight").
Hey, that's a GREAT idea! You know, I envision a round table and at each place setting, the corresponding knight's CoA displayed, along with their names on the backs of the chairs?
Lord, let me make that a reality! :)
Are you gonna let Chris Torres know about his tincture violation?
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Are you gonna let Chris Torres know about his tincture violation?
Nah, they probably don't mind.
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Yeah, I feel that the 2nd one looks more historical. And as far as Being "busy" I think that it certainly is historically viable, and the charges mean alot more for me.
Heyyyy Sir Ed, would it be too much trouble to change my COA on the roster? :-[
And I feel that the symbolism of others authority over my own (not THE lord, thats what the crosses are for) is a way of keeping humble, and putting others before myself. When I get some authority it will mean that. Think if it not so much meaning the authority of any one person, say just authority in general. Kinda a reminder of my own authority and also that of those above my station. You know, the order of things.
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BTW, i think Mr Torres emblazon is one of the busiest thing's Ive seen since Detroit. (don't get me wrong, it's still an awesome COA)
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Heyyyy Sir Ed, would it be too much trouble to change my COA on the roster? :-[
Done.
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Thanks again for going to all that trouble for me, Sir Edward. And thanks for the high-res. clips, too!
Sir Nathan, i like the second one better as well. BTW, it looks really cool on the roster page!
Paladin, sounds like you've got some good ideas for your CoA. Can't wait to see it! If I ever win the lottery, I'll build us a hall we can meet at (think stone, oak beams, and a fireplace we could all stand in) and we can house the round table and monogramed chairs there. Heck, I might just go all out and have stalls displaying carved crests and banners like Garter Knights have! Palms are starting to sweat, must go buy a Powerball ticket ;D
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Wow, I guess I need to get working on a CoA for me.
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Wow, I guess I need to get working on a CoA for me.
ya man! :)
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Great pair of CoA Sir Nathan! I'm more partial to the 2nd one but they both look great! :)
I put up Sir Brian's as well:
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/sirbrian.png)
Thank you for that Sir Edward! Today is really the first day I've had a chance to get back on the forum and really look around. Man, the things you miss after a couple of days! :)
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Yep, last night I put up Nathan's, and this morning we added Paladin's as well.
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/sirnathanq_coa2.png) (http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/paladinshield.png)
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Whoo hooo!! Many thanks to Sir Edward...it was really his expertise that got it all together. Now I'm gonna have that shield made! But I just tried to hit up the roster page and got an exception error...you guys must still be working on it.
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Yeah, the new site is having issues this morning. I've re-ordered the old one to look more like it: http://orderofthemarshal.org/roster.html (http://orderofthemarshal.org/roster.html)
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There we go, that looks fantastic!
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I started a new thread for feedback, suggestions, etc for the Order website here: http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,790.new.html#new
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I just noticed that Chris Torres has a violation of tincture. That grail is metal on metal. Heh. I think you can get away with that if the chalice is "Proper" instead of "Or" though.
The rule of tincture can be really complex, especially with the exceptions that are permitted. As much as Wikipedia isn't the end-all be-all of truth, it does have some good info on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_tincture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_tincture)
It looks like with regards to his chalice, it's a violation because they blazoned it as "a chalice Or", but they could get away with it by blazoning it as "a gilt chalice proper" or something like that. Heh. Manipulation of the rules. :)
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It seems mine is in violation as well...but if Sir Edward is kind enough to change the cross to 'gules' then I should be good to go?
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Yeah, this stuff can be so confusing at times. I kept thinking that even though the charges are stacked, they're still individually touching the azure field and needed to be a metal. But since they're technically on top of each other, I'm now thinking the cross needs to be a color so that it stacks properly over the wings which are a metal. It's all in how you interpret the rules, and they do explain it in terms of layers.
This isn't helping my headache today... lol :) It's fun puzzling these things out sometimes though. :)
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I didn't know you were ailing, Sir Edward- or I wouldn't have bothered you so much today! Thanks for all of your help though...great work. :)
The rules seem simple at first until they're applied...
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Thank you for the kind words regarding my COA. I like it very much also. (BTW, just to make it official, I'm using the 2nd one.)
And Paladin, I like your COA very much. care to explain the symbolism behind it?
Heck, lets all have a crack at that. Sounds like fun. :)
Ive already explained mine earlier in the topic, but I'll do so again. :D
The crosses symbolize my devotion to my faith, the Jerusalem crosses (in blazon, cross crosslet) because the crusades were a time of great Catholic fervor (which I am BTW). The tower symbolizes fortitude, strength, and unbending resolve in the facing of enemies. The oak represents nobility, authority, and not allowing outside forces to change and bend you.
And those rules of tincture are insane! I think a herald can be more looked at like a lawyer than an announcer and accountant.
Thats why I kept mine relatively simple. (Also much easier to draw/paint/sew/make wax seals)
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After reading the Red Knight's breakdown, I thought that maybe I should elaborate somewhat so, here we have it.
What I do, I do it for my faith (cross potent), which protects me (wings) and for my lady's sake (maunch, or lady's sleeve). As for the colors; gules (red) signifies a warrior (or martyr), paired with the cross it means to me that the bearer is a defender of the faith; the quartered sable/azure field signifies constancy (sable) and truth & loyalty (azure); lastly, the argent of the wings and maunch identify with peace and serenity- Milady being the source of said peace and serenity, what better homage than to display it on my shield and Coat of Arms? ;D
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Love the CoA, Paladin! Our Roll of Arms is really coming together!
Sir Edward, I hope you feel better soon.
EDIT: Forgot to translate my CoA. Gules is for magnamity and fortitude; the cinquefoil represents strength, loyalty, and honor; and the chevron denotes protection. To me, the whole thing is basically a warning to oppresors and predators: I will defend the innocent and the weak against you.
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Whoa, thats awesome. I like that you really have a theme to yours.
Well since we're going in depth here, I have two crosses to show that God and faith is doubly worth any other virtue. The color sable is to represent constancy, especially the enduring and faithful/dependable parts. The argent is representative of inner calmness and composure.
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Sir Edward, I hope you feel better soon.
Thanks, I feel much better today. It got worse as the day went on yesterday and cost me a bit of sleep. Ugh.
My COA has a page describing it here: http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html (http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html) However here's the most relevant bits:
Colors:
- Argent (silver/white) represents Peace and Sincerity.
- Azure (blue) stands for Truth and Loyalty.
- Sable (black) is for Constancy (not grief in this case).
Devices/Charges/Divisions/Ordinairies/etc:
- Dragon - Valour and Protection. (Personally, also acknowledging and honoring my fantasy gaming and other interests that helped push me towards where I am today)
- Crux Ansata (Ankh, or Cross with Handle) - long life, eternal life, or virtuous life. (Personally, also a promise of leading a chivalrous/virtuous life, and acknowledgment of how that promise has saved me)
- Sword - Justice and Honour. (Personally, also represents my interest in swords and armaments, and personal growth and mental fortitude that was hard earned)
- Bend - Shield suspender of a knight commander; signifies defense and protection.
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Good to see that you're feeling better today Sir Ed! :)
And that's really cool. You were just waiting for that question to pop, weren't you? :D
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Well, I worked a little on my CoA and found some things I like to incorporate, but I think my initial design may be in violation of the rules of tincture. Unfortunately I could not get the shield I drew up to save on my computer so I can not past it here, but I will take a crack at describing it, although I may need some help with properly phrasing it. This Heraldry stuff is completely new and foreign to me. Amazingly enough, I never thought of putting together a Coat of Arms for my Knightly persona. Well, here goes. Azure, Quarter Sable with Wolf Rampant Argent, Quarter Sinister with Raven Sable. Azure symbolizes Loyalty and Truth (and is also the color of Penn State, of which I am an alumn). Or symbolizes generosity, Sable is Constancy. Argent is peace and sincerity. Quarter is symbolic of a bearing of Honor. The Wolf is used as a symbol of a valiant captain who in the end gains his goals after a long siege or hard enterprise (which I take to mean perservierence or stubborness some may call it) and also one who is dangerous to assail or thwart. A Raven is symbolic of one who recieves little from his ancestors but by Providence becomes a master of his own fortunes or one who has enduring constance of nature. I think it is fairly simple yet complex enough to be different from what others might have. Critiques or improvements are most welcome. This is my first journey into unknown terrain, so I could use the help of those who are more experienced in this.
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How did you draw it up? With the free online COA editor? You can usually grab a screenshot of the entire window by hitting Alt-PrtScrn (or the entire screen with Ctrl-PrtScrn), and then you can paste it into something like Paint or Photoshop, or even an email.
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Yeah, that was what I used, but I didn't think of that. I'll try it again and then try to email it to myself.
EDIT: Was not able to email or to save a screen shot so the description will have to suffice until I can find a way to reproduce what I drew with this program.
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can u describe it and see if we can draw it up?
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Yep, just in plain language, not Blazon. :)
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Sure, no problem. Shield is Azure (blue) with the top left quarter Sable (black) and the top right quarter Or (gold). In the top left quarter there is an Argent (silver) Wolf Rampant and in the top right quarter there is a Sable (black) Raven.
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when u say left top/ right top and such is that wearing it or looking at it
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(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47/reenactthis/knight/shield.png)
like this?
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Exactly right, Sir Wolf.
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ok i think there needs to be a cross or something to keep the black off the blue. Sir Edward? help here?
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Sir Wolf, you are thinking along the same lines as I am. Perhaps Sir Edward or someone else can assist us in this point of the rule.
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maybe an alternating thin Or/sable. or something
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Actually you're fine, color-wise. In a field division, even with an ordinary, the colors are next to each other and not "over" each other. The two upper quadrants are either metal on color, or color on metal, so they look fine.
The thing is, there's no really no division that goes three-way like that exactly. What you'd probably have is less than a third of the height of the shield in the blue region, and it would be called a "base azure", with the primary field division being Per Pale Sable and Or.
The three-part divisions that do exist are the Per Pall divisions that contain diagonal boundaries.
One way to cheat would be to consider it to be an "Impalement" (combination of two family's arms) that is divided Per Fess, with the second family's arms being just a blank blue field. But that's reaching. :)
I'm attaching a sample of what I think would be heraldicly correct. BTW, all animal charges are assumed to be facing left (to dexter) unless specified otherwise. I'd probably blazon it as "Per Pale Sable and Or, A Wolf Rampant Argent, A Raven Sable, a Base Azure".
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Thank you Sir Edward, your knowledge of Heraldry vastly surpasses mine. I like that design much better than what I had originally done. It somehow looks more right, even if it is not quite right with existing examples. I guess the question is now, does that violate the rules and tradition too much or is it exeptable? I suppose I could rework it to have the proper three way division, if it's deemed too much of a stretch.
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Thank you Sir Edward, your knowledge of Heraldry vastly surpasses mine. I like that design much better than what I had originally done. It somehow looks more right, even if it is not quite right with existing examples. I guess the question is now, does that violate the rules and tradition too much or is it exeptable? I suppose I could rework it to have the proper three way division, if it's deemed too much of a stretch.
The way I drew it up should be fine. Any other changes you want to make to it?
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That looks pretty cool, Sir Matthew!
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Nope, looks very nice. I thank you very much for the assistance Sir Edward.
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No problem at all. I have it added on the roster here : http://orderofthemarshal.org/roster.html (http://orderofthemarshal.org/roster.html)
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Now, it is only Sir Ancelyn's CoA that needs to be added...can't wait to see what he comes up with! Nice CoA, Sir Matthew...as I have little experience with these, I can only comment on how cool it looks. ;)
I just thought of something else...how do we, or do we have the surcoats match the CoA? A la Sir Brian's?
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Historically the surcoats didn't need to match. Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. Sometimes they had the main colors but a completely different or additional charge on it. I think it's best to let everyone do what they want here.
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Woooooah, big explody thread out of nowhere! That's what I get for getting distracted!
I'm still reading through everything, but I find it interesting just how similar some of these discussions are to ones I've heard about the formation of the Fiat Lux. I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions in the near future, but in the meantime, feel free to drop me a pm/e-mail with any questions you guys may have.
In what may be a rather controvercial question (and if it rocks the boat too much, let me know!), what prevented you (as in any members!) from joining one of the existing chivalric organizations? I only ask out of curiosity - it's exciting to see a new group come up!
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Well, for my part, I was turned off from the SCA about ten years ago...when I was flirting with the idea of joining, I had a couple of hardcore SCA-dians tell me that if I wasn't going to play by their rules, they didn't want or need me in their game. A few others tried to apologize for those two but being the hothead I was, I figured there was no sense in showing up somewhere that I knew would be confrontational just because of a couple of offhand comments.
After that, I stopped looking around and focused on my kit and arsenal, and the Faire. I don't feel like I missed out on anything with a couple of exceptions but that's life and I'm still living it.
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COA looks great Mat! Well done! :)
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EDIT: Forgot to translate my CoA. Gules is for magnamity and fortitude; the cinquefoil represents strength, loyalty, and honor; and the chevron denotes protection. To me, the whole thing is basically a warning to oppresors and predators: I will defend the innocent and the weak against you.
Ours is somewhat similar, then. On mine:
* The chevron denotes a protective wall
* The two lions at the top are my wife and I - statant as we are calm protectors
* The lion on the lower portion inside the chevron is symbolic of the family we protect
* Black (field) represents the darkness/evil that surrounds us
* Gold is for nobility, and as a contrast to the darkness around us (figuratively speaking)
I just thought of something else...how do we, or do we have the surcoats match the CoA? A la Sir Brian's?
Question along those lines; I think the chevron may look strange on a surcoat. Would a solid-colored surcoat, with an actual shield with the heraldry placed in the center, chest and/or back, ending a bit above belt level be anywhere near historically correct? I've seen it in a few places, but I think it was movies/games, and can't remember or find any historical pictures.
Similar to this (http://api.ning.com/files/3voowQUZK4xdg49h0OByx9R-dXiHe5dpy2NGH1A1kM0mutBTx8fK5QvwjbJfMrfvdrP2Exv8R8uQI*9MHasLvP-MdNF0hvjY/124910d1245232185ridleyscottsrobinhood2010russellcrowerobinhoodset04.jpg (http://api.ning.com/files/3voowQUZK4xdg49h0OByx9R-dXiHe5dpy2NGH1A1kM0mutBTx8fK5QvwjbJfMrfvdrP2Exv8R8uQI*9MHasLvP-MdNF0hvjY/124910d1245232185ridleyscottsrobinhood2010russellcrowerobinhoodset04.jpg)) probably on a white (or lighter colored) surcoat for contrast.
In what may be a rather controvercial question (and if it rocks the boat too much, let me know!), what prevented you (as in any members!) from joining one of the existing chivalric organizations? I only ask out of curiosity - it's exciting to see a new group come up!
There's a few reasons I have. :)
I don't know of any Orders around my area. I like the people here. I dislike both the politics, rules, and "rankings" in the SCA. Specifically the people who try to force their personal beliefs on their group once they get "in power". The other half-peeve is picking a "persona". I have a variety of interests, 14th-16th century Italian, Gothic, and English armor; I wouldn't be able to pick a favorite to portray. By picking a persona, picking a name, and "dressing up" ... it feels like it LARP/Harry Potter/Twilight/LotR, teen/tween make-believe time. I also don't see much "meat" in it to interest me; other than the sport of rattan combat (which is secondary to learning real swordsmanship), the events and activities haven't appealed much to me, though it may just be lack of good activites locally; but that, again, brings about the "no interesting local groups" back into the equation. :)
The last lingering bit is that I have a very busy schedule; stainless armor, while "the work of the devil" to many, means that I can avoid spending 15 hours every 6-8 weeks cleaning off rust and doing maintenance (I have a few harnesses and the mild steel is VERY frustrating at times). I noticed last week my gothic harness is starting to rust under the straps, and it's yet to even be worn (finishing the arming coat/points/etc).
The "You should really consider using period steel. And period wool. And period flax." bothers me, as I'm far, far more interested in the knights themselves and how it feels to wear the armor. Especially since it's not plastic, and the SCA is not a Living History group. Easy maintenance is a priority over historical accuracy for most things for me, as long as it presents a good attempt at a historical appearance. Finding an armorer to work in stainless? Not so pleasant. :(
(Edit by Ed, fixed URL for image)
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Woooooah, big explody thread out of nowhere! That's what I get for getting distracted!
I'm still reading through everything, but I find it interesting just how similar some of these discussions are to ones I've heard about the formation of the Fiat Lux. I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions in the near future, but in the meantime, feel free to drop me a pm/e-mail with any questions you guys may have.
In what may be a rather controvercial question (and if it rocks the boat too much, let me know!), what prevented you (as in any members!) from joining one of the existing chivalric organizations? I only ask out of curiosity - it's exciting to see a new group come up!
As an extremely active member of a very successful medieval re-enactment group here in England, I struggle to find time to partake in many of the online groups out there in Internet land.
When I came across this forum I found its members to be very welcoming and enjoyed reading ( and occasionally joining in ) the many varied and informative threads.
I find the general ethos of the group and members to be honourable and admirable, moreover, very close to my own ideals.
It seemed a natural progressive step to support the new order of chivalry, even though it may have to be in a very minor capacity. given the geographical distance.
Although I live such a distance from the membership, I have always been made to feel welcome and that the distance is never an issue.
G
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I just thought of something else...how do we, or do we have the surcoats match the CoA? A la Sir Brian's?
Question along those lines; I think the chevron may look strange on a surcoat. Would a solid-colored surcoat, with an actual shield with the heraldry placed in the center, chest and/or back, ending a bit above belt level be anywhere near historically correct? I've seen it in a few places, but I think it was movies/games, and can't remember or find any historical pictures.
Similar to this (http://api.ning.com/files/3voowQUZK4xdg49h0OByx9R-dXiHe5dpy2NGH1A1kM0mutBTx8fK5QvwjbJfMrfvdrP2Exv8R8uQI*9MHasLvP-MdNF0hvjY/124910d1245232185ridleyscottsrobinhood2010russellcrowerobinhoodset04.jpg (http://api.ning.com/files/3voowQUZK4xdg49h0OByx9R-dXiHe5dpy2NGH1A1kM0mutBTx8fK5QvwjbJfMrfvdrP2Exv8R8uQI*9MHasLvP-MdNF0hvjY/124910d1245232185ridleyscottsrobinhood2010russellcrowerobinhoodset04.jpg)) probably on a white (or lighter colored) surcoat for contrast.
(Edit by Ed, fixed URL for image)
I don't know that it would look that bad...Sir Wolf's red surcoat has a white chevron that looks really good. I've also read of a badge similar to yours- except it was a yellow surcoat with a black chevron...gotta find the reference for it.
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Some great replies here so far. For me, I laid out some of my hesitations on creating a group back in the first post. But as for joining one, well, I've kept my eyes open for a long time. But finding a group that's relatively local and shares my level of interest (our sort of blend of history, easy-going nature, and so on) has been a challenge. The SCA ends up being the whipping boys in this sort of discussion, so I'll use them as an example as well. They take things very seriously, persona and all, to a level that can cause a firestorm of disagreement over titles, accuracy, politics, and a host of other issues. They're also not focused on knights, swords & armor, and historical combat, despite the competitive combat aspect of the organization.
Outside of that, it's been location, different focus, etc.
I have to admit, the Fiat Lux has looked the most interesting of many of the options out there, though you guys are of course some distance away.
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And some good answers to my question as well!
I can certainly see an upside to having a decentralized group, especially for those in isolated areas, or unable to find a critical mass to start their own local group. Like I mentioned in my initial post, the whole thing is similar to what I've seen/heard about the Fiat Lux starting up. Feel free to pick my brain for any questions you guys have!
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I knew I'd find him, Sir James (Anderson) - here's a pic of Sir Wolf in his surcoat w/chevron...looks pretty good if I do say so myself.
(http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv64/ebonpaladin/Armor/SirWolfin12thCgarb.jpg)
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And some good answers to my question as well!
I can certainly see an upside to having a decentralized group, especially for those in isolated areas, or unable to find a critical mass to start their own local group. Like I mentioned in my initial post, the whole thing is similar to what I've seen/heard about the Fiat Lux starting up. Feel free to pick my brain for any questions you guys have!
I'd love to hear about the founding of the Fiat Lux as well. I've been curious about that actually. It's probably a little easier to find folks that are interested in swords, armor, and knights now that relatively inexpensive armor is readily available. The story was very different a decade ago, for example.
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A decade ago...that seems so long ago when you read it like that...but I can remember it like it was yesterday...though, I couldn't tell you what I had for breakfast last Saturday. lol
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In what may be a rather controvercial question (and if it rocks the boat too much, let me know!), what prevented you (as in any members!) from joining one of the existing chivalric organizations? I only ask out of curiosity - it's exciting to see a new group come up!
Distance has been the biggest hurdle for me. Aside from the SCA, there just aren't many groups where I live. I have no beef with the SCA by any means, I'm just not cut out for creating a personna and all that. I've come across other orders online, but as there was really no way to get involved on a face-to-face basis, I figured why bother. While distance may still be an issue with our new order, being around at its conception has given me a much greater sense of belonging. Like Sir Gerard de Rhodes said earlier, this is a great forum and it seems like a natural next step to join its new order.
EDIT: Can you guys believe how far we have come in just 21 days?
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Matt, I like the COA.
and I'm going to echo many of the reasons given here for not joining an already existing group. Location, not wanting to get involved in group politics, and an order really based on chivalry and moral character, as they are supposed to be. Also, as I am the only armour guy in my town (but I'm doing my best to infect other locals ;D) this is probably the best way to connect IRL with people of the same interest. This is also the best for my schedule, as I am in high school and participate in various sports/clubs/whathaveyou my schedule is strange and exotic, and I feel that this would be a much more accepting and understanding group as far as thats concerned.
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Since we brought up personas, I think it's worth asking another question about how we want to handle the membership roster. If you look at the Roll of Arms over on the Selohaar site, they use their full real names. I know some people are cautious about using their full names online, as a privacy or security issue. Of course, facebook has turned that on its head, since nearly everyone uses their real name there.
Anyway, how do people feel about their names on our roster or roll of arms? So far I just put "Sir <firstname>" on there for the time being for most folks, or used their forum identity instead. But this will quickly become confusing once we have multiple people with the same first name. Do people want to stick to their forum names or would they be OK with using their real names? Or use their real first name with a fictional but historical last name? Or something else entirely? I'm OK with it being different for each person based on what they prefer. I'd just like to hear thoughts on this.
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I think, for the Order, I would be fine with using my real name as it is a real Order and we're uh, doing this for real. LOL
As you know, I don't care much for my own first name but I doubt there'd be another one so...let's do it. Or like you said, first real name, fictional last name...whatever the consensus is, I'll go along with.
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I'm in the same situation, Paladin. My first name does not exactly have a period ring to it. I 've been kicking around using one of my middle names instead. As far as last names go, if I used one of middle names (instead of my given one), I'd be okay with that. While I'm totally into what we're doing here, if someone were to Google me (say an employer or business associate), I'd prefer my professional "persona" to be the first thing they saw, rather than a pic of me armoured up and brandishing a sword ;)
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That is an excellent point, Red Knight, I'm not sure which I'd rather they saw. LOL
My first name is Roman/Latin, my second name is...I have no idea. My last name is a rebastardization of the Olde English 'duck' or 'duke'. lol
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From the Fiatian standpoint, we use our real names. Who cares if it's period-sounding or not - it's the survival of the traditions and the ideals that matter most. Part of the appeal is that even today, anyone can become a knight if they are willing to dedicate and prove themselves of a noble stature.
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Well my personae first name is my real name and as to using my last name it reveals itself with my email address and since all three of my names are period I'm good all around, Brian Thatcher Ames- So really how more anglo-saxon can one get? :D
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Heh, that IS pretty cool, Sir Brian!
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Agreed!
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Hmm, If it's a privacy issue, one could simply use 1st name and last name initial. Thats where SirNathanQ comes from. SirNathanQ is pretty much my internet name.
Although the trouble is that my name is period, but from completely different regions.
Nathan Paul Quarantillo. My 1st and Mid names are english, but my last name is as italian as spaghetti!
The meaning IS pretty cool through. Quarantillo allegedly means "small group of forty" in italian. I don't think it sounds unreasonable to guess that this might be from the condottieri days. Small group of forty (lances).
Although if we're creating personas here, I think I should make it to match.
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Perhaps the standard for the roster should be first name and last initial then, though it's OK to use something else entirely on a case-by-case basis if you want. I can see why some people would prefer using their middle name or something else entirely, to control what gets googled. In my case, my name is all over my websites and domain registrations anyway. I couldn't hide it if I wanted to. :)
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Sir Edward has put himself on blast. lol
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Sir Edward has put himself on blast. lol
And I'm on every spammer's list known to man. So far this month my spam filter has trapped 272 emails a day on average. And that's not including what gets outright blocked at the gateway, but only what gets delivered to my spam folder. :)
Anyway, I'm used to my employers finding all this stuff. I get a lot of "cool website" comments when I get hired. :)
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That's awesome man....I mean about the cool website comments, not the spamfest your inbox is seeing daily. Geez...
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That's awesome man....I mean about the cool website comments, not the spamfest your inbox is seeing daily. Geez...
I'm sure it isn't so bad for our good Sir Edward...although I have it on good authority that his "delete" key is in dire need of a vacation! :D
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I'm ok with using our real names. My personae name is my first name, traditionally I have not used my last name, as it was not really necessary. As for privacy, well I used to be concerned with that, but I'm in the phone book and I'm pretty sure my name, phone no., etc. can be found elsewhere online so I'm not really concerned about that anymore. My last name is German/Swiss so for an English Knight it may be a little strange.
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Since we brought up personas, I think it's worth asking another question about how we want to handle the membership roster.
I use a specific screenname for most forums, but MyArmoury and ARMA make you use your full (first and last) real name, so I did the same here and on all arms & armor forums I'm on for consistency (and so I can remember my login). I don't mind my full name being used, but of course, James Anderson is probably only slightly less common than John Smith. As mentioned, Facebook uses full names, but I think a key difference is that those profiles (and all info on them) can be set to private/friends only.
I'd prefer my professional "persona" to be the first thing they saw, rather than a pic of me armoured up and brandishing a sword ;)
I had to interview someone at work for a position. Young guy. I walked into the room, shook his hand and said "Hello, I'm James". And his reply? "Hey, you're the ninja guy!". I stuttered something incoherent and sat in shock the rest of the interview. We spent some time after that interview, figuring out how the guy found out to say that. Turned out that if you google my employer's name, then my myspace page I had at the time came up, as I had them listed as an employer, and there were only about 25 employees at the time. And I had my "ninja" picture as my profile image at the time.
Thankfully, we didn't find out until after he had left from the interview, and wasn't hired ... his myspace page. We googled his name to see what came up after my "adventure". A MySpace Band page that he is a member of. No big deal. Oh, except that there was a picture of all the members completely naked, with strategically placed instruments covering questionable bits of flesh. Might have been more, but one was enough, and that window couldn't be closed fast enough.
At that point, the ninja thing didn't seem too weird any more....
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Nothing wrong with the ninja pic, man. At least he took the time to take a look at the corporate website!
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I sometimes think employers take the myspace pages and the like too seriously. Many people put up pictures from Halloween parties and the like that are meant to be funny simply because of how out-of-character they are. It's not generally a good indicator of how good of an employee the person will be. The "odd" ones aren't always the problem. As they say, the problem with psychopaths is that they look just like everyone else. :)
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Yea, the nude bandmembers with instruments isn't even original; Lita Ford did it - don't know if it was an album cover but I remember he looking especially hot with a guitar pointed south, and nothing else. Heh.
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I had to interview someone at work for a position. Young guy. I walked into the room, shook his hand and said "Hello, I'm James". And his reply? "Hey, you're the ninja guy!". I stuttered something incoherent and sat in shock the rest of the interview.
A perfect example of what I'm talking about. In the internet age, the line between your business and private lives is blurred. I'm not on Facebook or anything like that because it frankly creeps me out when people I barely know/don't know at all come into the office and comment about how much fun I seemed to be having at such and such event (I'm not on Facebook, but that doesn't stop my friends who are from tagging me in the photos on their accounts). >:( By necessity, I need to keep a certain distance between myself and some of the people I work with/interact with, and the internet is making that increasingly difficult. I wish to make it very clear that in no way do I regard the Order as some "dirty little secret" or anything like that. I just can't be the "ninja guy" when I'm working ;)
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Being a teenage armour geek
Disadvantages= tiny budget, no job, cannot drive self to museums containing armour, having to approve all medieval-flavored purchases with parents, not being able to mount swords, polearms, or armour on the wall (at the expense of the ghost of Christmas photos past :D) and high school sports competing with campaign (renn faire) season!
Advantages= not caring about my hobby being very public. Go ahead. Search Nathan Quarantillo on google images. See what you find. About 4 pages of medieval-flavored goodness, thats what!
Although I don't really see anything wrong with this hobby as far as making us look "irresponsible" really, if I were an employer, I'd be stoked that my employees uphold chivalry (less likely to be dishonest, probably nicer to people, ect)
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I'm going to go with middle and last name. Allows me a bit of privacy without being a persona (this IS real life stuff we're talking after all) :)
BTW, I feel like I've been holding this topic up for days. My apologies to all if that has indeed been the case.
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Nah, I think the holiday slowed down the board, not you. :)
I think as a general rule, folks can email me to have updates made on their roster info. "bones at toton.org" will work.
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Nah, I think the holiday slowed down the board, not you. :)
I think as a general rule, folks can email me to have updates made on their roster info. "bones at toton.org" will work.
I finished the Sir Edward accessible roster updating portion, but I am going to work on a way for everyone to update their own data, down the road a bit.
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Hey, I was just wondering about the status of "squire". As I will be the only one whom this applies to, how does it work? Can I still vote? Is there still a ceremony? and If there is, do I get another one when I turn 18 and become a knight? and can squires wear the gilded spurs?
Please explain. Especially the differences between squires and knights (within the order, not in period) ??? ??? ???
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Hey, I was just wondering about the status of "squire". As I will be the only one whom this applies to, how does it work? Can I still vote? Is there still a ceremony? and If there is, do I get another one when I turn 18 and become a knight? and can squires wear the gilded spurs?
Please explain. Especially the differences between squires and knights (within the order, not in period) ??? ??? ???
Excellent questions! :) I think we still have lots of little details to work out, and this is among them. I'm all ears for suggestions. Remember, everything I wrote down in the initial write-up is potentially still open to change if we come up with something better here. I still want as much of this as possible to come from a group consensus, rather than me pulling stuff out of my hind-quarters. :)
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Say, when is our order going to get a link on the forum's links page? ;D
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Say, when is our order going to get a link on the forum's links page? ;D
Hah! Good catch. I'll go add it.
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Well, as the resident to-be squire, I would like to make a proposition on the status of squire.
Has the ability to vote and be active in the order. However, similar to the confirmation of a knight, the to-be squire must get the support of 2 existing knights, and get it through the KC. There would be a very simple, and since the squire had already got the confirmation and support of 2 knights and the KC, the squire is eligible to become a knight via normal ceremony w/ the supporting knights and KC anytime they want upon reaching the age of majority (18). There would also be a (not a requirement, but expectation) to have been in the order as an initiate for a time until one feels they are ready to petition for becoming a squire. Also, the squire would not be regarded as any less than any of the other knights, since the squire had to go through the same approval process as they did. Basically it is a knight that hasn't reached the age of majority. Also a squire wouldn't be eligible to serve as KC or his backup, since they are under the age of majority.Squires wouldn't be able to wear gilded spurs. Squire would have the option of wearing silver spurs, which would be presented to him by his sponsors in the same way the knights are presented gilded ones (these will be swapped out for gilded spurs during the knighting ceremony). The ceremony would simply be the presentation of the silvered spurs, and maybe some words, but that's it.
It's basically a recognition of the chivalric values that make someone a knight in a person under the age of majority. They function as knights, (except for the KC and back-up part) are recognized as equals of the knights, go by the same expectations as knights.
Simply knights without the official title and the gold on the spurs.
BTW, kit standards are the same as with knights. (and obviously they can't sponsor people)
So to sum it up, it's a person who has passed all the qualifications to be a knight (kit, chivalry, sponsors, morality, ect), but is under 18. That's why a squire would be eligible to become a knight upon reaching the age of 18. Attaining the rank of squire shows that one has already proved themselves worthy of knighthood.
Whoo! okay, what do you all think?
Comments, criticisms, concerns? :)
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I think it sounds pretty good. Anyone else have opinions on it? So far it sounds good. One note about the spurs-- do we want to gift someone with spurs twice? Perhaps that should be saved for knighting to make it more special. Just a thought, but I'd like to hear what others think too.
Of course, there could always be a set of "loaner spurs" that get passed down to whoever the next squire is. :)
BTW, I also added an Order-only section on the forum. Everyone on the roster page should have access to it. There's not a lot that needs to be there yet, but I wanted to make sure I had it all configured.
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I was thinking that upon knighting the gilded spurs would replace the silver ones. An alteration to the knighting ceremony, where before the gilded set is put on the new knight, the silvered pair would be taken off. And I think the spurs going back to the order wouldn't be a too bad Idea.
Kinda cool symbolism, in that while you are a squire, the outward signs of your knighthood do not belong to you, that you are a squire to the order (instead of an individual knight) whom is giving you this privilege. But when you become a knight, you actually own the set, that while still given to you by the order, show that it's a more independent status. Also gives it a sense of permanence. That you actually own this pair, and will hang on to it for life.
anyway, I'm glad Sir Ed approves of my squire draft. Spent over an hour drawing that up :D
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anyway, I'm glad Sir Ed approves of my squire draft. Spent over an hour drawing that up :D
well then it sucks and we can't use it ehhehehe jkjk
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I think Sir Nathan's squire description is excellent.
I agree on the silver spurs, swapped for gilded ones, should go into the Order's "assets", and be given to the next person who becomes a squire, and when they are knighted, back to the order, and so on. That way, we won't need to buy a (potentially large, relatively speaking) number of silver spurs.
(I typed that same idea and hit submit, then it said there are new posts. :o)
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I find Sir Nathan's proposition satisfactory. I think that for a youth he shows alot more clear thinking than most adults I meet.
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Agreed wholeheartedly.
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Excellent, I'll look into working it into the by bylaws/charter.
Looking at what we have so far, a couple of questions still remain that we didn't flesh out:
* Is there a minimum amount of time that should be required before someone becomes a knight/squire? If so, how long?
* Breaking a deadlocked vote. I wrote down to ideas in the bylaws. One is to double the KC's vote so he is the tie-breaker. The other is to invalidate the KC's vote, so the vote is decided by the rest of the knights. This latter one appeals to me in the sense that it helps to decentralize. However, it carries the irony that whoever/whatever the KC voted for (in the deadlocked vote) is the side that loses. In the former, his is the side that wins.
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I think I'm in agreement w/everyone else here. As for the KC...interesting proposition...that the KC's vote be FYI only rather than carrying weight leaving the onus on the rest of the knights to transact whatever business is at hand. It is an interesting idea...I guess maybe we can wait and see what situations come up where this would come in handy with the caveat being we'll go with the one that best suits the situation and that'll become the Rule?
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I think the KC vote should carry double the weight in the event of a tie. Historically the knights would generally follow the KC's orders, but beyond that, it's not a "permanent" position, and if changes to the bylaws require a 2/3 majority vote, that makes it impossible to even be a deciding factor in bylaw changes anyway. ;)
Or maybe instead of just needing 2 sponsors to be knighted, you need 2 members to sponsor you for a vote, and the membership votes in a poll as Yay, Nay, or Opt out (if they don't know the person, conflict of interest, etc) to decide if they are knighted?
As for minimum amount of time, I think we poked at it a bit before. Some people will do more to contribute or grow in 6 weeks than others will in 6 months. Since they need sponsors to join, and sponsors to be knighted, a time requirement might not be necessary. I think the most important aspects are being a good fit for the Order and a good period-ish presentation (soft or armored).
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Haha, thank you all for the kind comments. Especially Sir Wolf. Straight to the heart man 8) :D
And yeah, I really am not a fan of my generation. That's why I study history, run amok in period garb with like minded people, and join chivalrous orders instead of playing Xbox or.....no, wait... that's the ONLY thing kids do. :D
And I think that there shouldn't be a technical amount of time that one has to spend in the order to become a knight or squire. HOWEVER, the knights of the order and KC should watch that. As long as they feel that they know without a doubt that this person is worthy of knighthood, then go for it. :)
What I hope will happen is that the order members will be stingy with their sponsorships, and the KC will really take a look at each applicant before approval. In practice, this should effectively stop anyone from advancing early, as the KC can simply decide that this person isn't ready for knighthood.
I am hoping that the time it takes for 2 knights to determine a person's chivalric merit will not permit any 1month trips to knighthood.
And I support the KC's vote counting as 2. I am assuming that the leader of the order will make good decisions in the interest of the order. After all, there is a reason that a person is elected KC right? I'd like to think that he's proven himself worthy to be able to make some decisions. We have to remember, this is in the case of the exception, not the rule. He won't be deciding what everyone and their brother-in-arms will be doing on a daily basis. ;)
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Wait a minute there, Squire Nathan- I play XBox, and PS3, and PSP and computer games...surely you're not lumping me in with the rest of them? LOL
I'm not sure what that says about me, but a good number of my friends and I regularly engage in video games...although they've talked me into the online aspect which I've steadfastly avoided til now. It IS a lot of fun and keeps us in-house (as opposed to running about, visiting bars and seedier places lol) where our womenfolk can keep an eye on us!
I agree on the sponsorships being made of worthy individuals, not just interested individuals...but how do we do that and avoid the elitist tag? Actually, we'll appear elitist to most outsiders- we've joined an Order while they have not...and I'm not all that concerned about such things, but I realize that others are.
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Of course not Paladin. I was making a reference to the crowd that does nothing but those games. I actually know people who have played a game for 48 hours straight. And in my bloody high school, social status is determined by how many kills you have at this, or your score at that. I only own a PS2, and never play the thing. Games just never appealed to me. My biggest beef is that alot of these people aren't interested in anything else. And it just seems a waste to me. I always had to do it for real. But that's just me.
And I personally don't care either, if some people cannot stand that this order has some standards, of which they may or may not meet, then that's their problem. Really, just trying to uphold the tenants of chivalry (much less becoming a knight and joining an order!) is often viewed as elitist. Because holding oneself to a higher standard is OBVIOUSLY elitist.
and really, it's not elitist. It's just simply ensuring that our knights are people who reflect that status in their day-to-day lives.
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I would tend to agree that the time limit doesn't need to be hard and fast. Since we require two members of the Order to sponsor someone, I think when you can convince two members you are ready and they agree, you have met the requirement. More important for me in terms of time is not limiting how long someone has to assemble a kit. Gathering everything needed is expensive and time consuming. Not everyone who has a real interest and has something worthy of contributing will be able to meet kit requirements within a year, some make take several and if they are anything like me, will continue to change, add to and develope entirely new kits as time passes. These members should not be excluded from participating because they are having to assemble kit slowly, although I do not think they should be elivated to Knight until they have a least a passable "soft" kit. Some discussion of what this entails may be needed, too.
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Oh yes, I agree that we shouldn't have a time limit at the other end, a maximum time so to speak. If people had one year to get their kit together, or they're out, I don't think that's fair at all. That's why whenever appropriate, I wrote in the bylaws that you can remain there (such as being an Initiate) for as long as you want or need. From my point of view, it makes you a member, even if not a voting one, and it's OK for people to stay there. In fact, we could consider renaming it to something "nicer" if we want to remove the association of it being only for newbies. Acolyte, Scholar, all sorts of possibilities.
About the video games, I agree completely. There's nothing wrong with playing them (I'm frequently finding one game or another I like too), it's just that today's youth often takes it to extremes and places too much importance on it. But really, we have some segment of the adult population that's just as bad. Someone at work recently was talking about someone he knew who lost his marriage over online games... :'(
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Well, I can't say I ever played THAT long...my longest was like 12 or 13 hours and that was a long time ago. I don't have the stamina (or time lol) any longer. At the very least, you'll never hear of ME dying from malnutrition and dehydration because of WoW. lol
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...Or committing suicide, or alienating your wife, hopefully. :)
I've had some long gaming sessions, but I've never played straight through the night. I've lost a lot of sleep from not being able to turn my brain off afterward, on occasion though.
BTW, I received an email from the "International Heraldry and Heralds" website about exchanging links. I added a whole heraldry section on the links page. Here's their site (with some good info, I might add):
http://www.internationalheraldry.com/ (http://www.internationalheraldry.com/)
It looks like they also have a page about William Marshal (I haven't read it yet):
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/marshal.htm (http://www.medievalwarfare.info/marshal.htm)
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Right. Falling on my sword seems too ignominious an end for one such as myself. And my wife likes the fact that I'm a gamer...since it keeps me indoors most nights I can see why. ;) So we're all good there. Fully understand not being able to turn off the brain...especially when you're exploring tactical options for a given situation.
Great links, reading the Marshal one now.
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hhehehe we will stand by to cut your head off if you falter
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On the topic of younger/newer members, the Fiat Lux ensures that every new adult member goes through a minimum 90 day squiring period, with various objectives and goals that need to be accomplished within that timeframe. To be accepted as a squire, a candidate needs simply a sponsoring knight and someone to second their nomination. Maximum time limit is one calendar year - if life's getting in the way, let us know, but if one is just sitting around getting nothing done, then they have to go through the process again from scratch. A stalwart candidate can get through everything in 90 days, (it took me about 100, myself) and should ideally take no longer than 5-6 months.
The squiring process is, again, for all new adult members, from 21+, regardless of years of service in our youth program.
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Divorces? Suicide? Man, and I thought the gaming-through the weekend (yes, with no breaks) parties were bad. :o
And nice pages.
And has anyone else noticed the cool little order plug under our names? Kudos Sir Ed on another great idea. :)
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I need to get cracking and come up with my COA already. Definitely going with colors from the Elliot tartan, just not all of them as 4 or 5 is a bit much. Progbably blue and burgundy/red. Perhaps blue tabby cats on burgundy. ;-)
This weekend is likely going to be a bust with parades and functions I am required to be at. It is good to be stepping down. Now I can skip all the masonic functions I want to and nobody can say boo.
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Okay, let's try this, I will have to draw it up after work of course ;-),
Per cross Azure and Gules, 2 lions rampant contourney (I want my lions to look to the right) Or
How would I say lions only on the blue?
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Okay, let's try this, I will have to draw it up after work of course ;-),
Per cross Azure and Gules, 2 lions rampant contourney (I want my lions to look to the right) Or
How would I say lions only on the blue?
Like this?
(http://modernchivalry.org/order/images/ancelynshield.png)
I think you blazoned it correctly. If not specified, the first charge is in dexter or chief, or both, in the first field that allows the color (I think). Since "Or" can sit over either color, I think it's assumed the first charge will be in the upper left if there's only two of it on a "quarterly" division.
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That looks about like what I envisioned. I'll see what I come up with from a couple of sites and send my favorite one late on Saturday.
Ah, red and blue, symbolizing all the blood spilling from the bodies of my slain enemies. Hahahahahahaha! ;-)
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wow that is nice man!
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Yea, I like it too!
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Sir Ancelyn,
Really nice choice. Can I ask if there is a reason why you wish your Lion Rampants to face the sinister side?
Sometimes this was seen as a bad omen or a denotation of some dishonourable act somewhere in your family history. Very much like the reversed bendlet.Although you will probably not find this information in popular modern literary sources, it was a common way to interpret sinister facing devices at the time.
G
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Sir Ancelyn,
Really nice choice. Can I ask if there is a reason why you wish your Lion Rampants to face the sinister side?
Sometimes this was seen as a bad omen or a denotation of some dishonourable act somewhere in your family history. Very much like the reversed bendlet.Although you will probably not find this information in popular modern literary sources, it was a common way to interpret sinister facing devices at the time.
I went through a similar justification process when I was deciding on mine, since mine has nearly everything in sinister. I found some great passages in google books that talked about exactly that, and the sinister portion didn't frequently mean that. Occasionally, but not as a rule. In fact, in churches it was customary to make all of the effigies face the altar, and so the arms would be reversed on many of them to make sure they wouldn't face away. So most of the time it was a stylistic choice and was regarded as such.
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Well, in part not to look identical to a dozen other lions. I am also thinking lynx. Also, my clan did a fair bit of thieving along the English borders. Sinister enough. :-)
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BTW, website has been cut over to the new one.
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I actually know people who have played a game for 48 hours straight. And in my bloody high school, social status is determined by how many kills you have at this, or your score at that.
When we had the substantial snow earlier this year, I took 2 weeks off. My driveway is probably 75 feet long, and shoveling out just wasn't going well. The second snow dump that followed ... I quit. No snowblowers in stock anywhere nearby. So I did what anyone else stuck in a house for 12 days would do; I played World of Warcraft to a ridiculous extent. I have 2 level 80s and a level 58 with full nerd gear and all that. Oh, I've also got 46 hours of sick leave and 174 hours of vacation leave banked right now, so I guess you could say I'm pretty good about showing up at work. I quit playing WoW back in feb/mar, didn't even play for a year total.
Last time I did anything remotely like that was high school when Diablo II came out; a couple friends set up a network with me, when you had to literally drag your computers all to the same house. We set up a server and had 3 machines to play on. Then 5 of us took turns "rotating" ... 2 or 3 would play, while 2 or 3 would eat, sleep, etc. We all finished the game co-op in a few days, with almost 24/7 continuous play within the group. Kept us out of trouble, and the week after we were back out playing basketball, football and tennis again.
The thing that is scary about "modern" day times is I'm scared to let my brother play outside with a friend or two unless I'm watching like a hawk. Too many abductions, rapes, and worse. Didn't have those fears when I was younger. I think with both parents working being more common, and kids being home alone and not allowed outside, video games is a natural progression. Half of mine was PC gaming, which oddly enough the LAN gaming configuration led to my first job as a network engineer and my game hacking led to my current job as a software developer.
Now, how do we convince them playing with wooden swords and armor made out of old pieces of carpet is totally normal? That's what I started with. :D
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Nice CoA, Sir Ancelyn!
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Sir Ancelyn,
Really nice choice. Can I ask if there is a reason why you wish your Lion Rampants to face the sinister side?
Sometimes this was seen as a bad omen or a denotation of some dishonourable act somewhere in your family history. Very much like the reversed bendlet.Although you will probably not find this information in popular modern literary sources, it was a common way to interpret sinister facing devices at the time.
I went through a similar justification process when I was deciding on mine, since mine has nearly everything in sinister. I found some great passages in google books that talked about exactly that, and the sinister portion didn't frequently mean that. Occasionally, but not as a rule. In fact, in churches it was customary to make all of the effigies face the altar, and so the arms would be reversed on many of them to make sure they wouldn't face away. So most of the time it was a stylistic choice and was regarded as such.
Yes Sir Ed I had heared similar things, but haven`t heard of the Church link before, nice find.
Well, in part not to look identical to a dozen other lions. I am also thinking lynx. Also, my clan did a fair bit of thieving along the English borders. Sinister enough. :-)
LOL sinister enough LOL :D
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Sir Ancelyn, I love the COA! Break down of the symbolism if you please! ;D
And yeah, times are scarier. I think it may be that everyone now has the capacity to tell about 1000 people in a day about the horrifying hearsay. Things travel fast. Scary things travel faster. ;)
New website? could someone provide a link?
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New website? could someone provide a link?
The domain is the same, it just points to the new website's server instead of the old one. http://orderofthemarshal.org/ (http://orderofthemarshal.org/)
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So far, so lookin good, Sir Edward.
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Wow, you have all been very busy indeed! I have been very absent over months, much traveling, non of which at my own accord. In any event this is a great idea! We often see each other at Faire, it would be great to see you all otherwise as well.
I had an interesting experience I would share, I am a Den Leader and was asked by the scoutmaster if I would help with a ceremony known as the Blue and Gold, they had chosen a medieval theme and he heard I was the one to talk to. I of course thought that was great and said that I would do a Knighting Ceremony for the boys crossing over.
The day arrived; my squire and I donned our armor and waited for the sign. About halfway through the meeting the cub master asked the audience if wouldn't it be great if they had someone from the medieval time period to talk to them about what scouting had in common with those days, like a knight.
Thats when my squire and I came onto the stage from behind a curtain, Sir Baden Powell actually developed his ideas for the Boy Scout Laws and Oath from the ideas held by knights in their code of chivalry. It was a great experience for the boys and the parents were very impressed. As a volunteer I never thought it would have been so warmly received but it makes me think that maybe its time that our code of chivalry is starting to gain audience again and in a day of instant gratification and selfishness, maybe the time of service is growing an audience again.
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Excellent and well done! I agree, I think there's a lot for chivalry to teach us today, and we can teach others in what we learn as well. It's part of what makes this whole thing so cool. :)
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Greetings Stormdelver!
I'm a new guy on the block and it's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Congratulations on a job well done at the Blue and Gold ceremony. As an Eagle Scout and father to a future Cub Scout (next school year) I very much enjoyed reading about the production you put on with your squire. I know for a fact that those boys will NEVER forget that night.
You brought up a very good point regarding Scouting and Chivalry. There are many common themes, and intentionally so! I find it interesting, but not surprising, that my little sub-group within the local Twin Cities SCA group contains 3 Eagle Scouts, two former Scout Masters, a police sergeant and a teacher. Chivalry, Honor, Scouting and service to others are all cornerstones to a stable and prosperous society in any era.
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This brings up what may be my defining moment where I believed in chivalry, its service unto others, there have been many times where I would have given my life to protect others, those I knew and those I didn't. Its not importaint where, when, or why, its only importaint that there are those that will stand for what is right and defend those who cannot defend themselves, where honor is not a word, its a life. I hope that maybe, maybe, each in our own way, we maybe plant the seed for the next generation.
I always dreamed of being a knight, but not for the attention, or rewards but for the opportunity to do the right thing and stand for more than I am. Our choices define us in life, and we all have had our tests, and failed at times, yet its that fact that we are here still dreaming of what should be that counts.
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"I always dreamed of being a knight, but not for the attention, or rewards but for the opportunity to do the right thing and stand for more than I am. Our choices define us in life, and we all have had our tests, and failed at times, yet its that fact that we are here still dreaming of what should be that counts."
Classic !!!!!!!
G
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I always dreamed of being a knight, but not for the attention, or rewards but for the opportunity to do the right thing and stand for more than I am. Our choices define us in life, and we all have had our tests, and failed at times, yet its that fact that we are here still dreaming of what should be that counts.
Most elegantly stated good Sir! :)
I propose to all our esteemed colleges that we adopt this statement has one of our founding creeds of our order!
What say you?
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I like it. We could add that on the "about the order" page, and who we are and what we do. Nicely said.
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BTW, just thought I should point out to Stormdelver an anyone else reading this that if they want to join the Order, right now the best thing to do is to hang out on the forum and let us get to know you, etc. We're in the paradoxical state right now where we've put the rules into motion, but we don't have any knights with which to induct new members, hold votes, etc. Until we get the first batch of knightings done, it's hard to make the rules operate. :)
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Aye. My vote goes for not only adding it to the website, but to get tattoos and bumper stickers as well! :D
Also, when are we gonna get to those knightings? Or the secret meetings? Or plots to take over the world? Or laying sieges on prime real estate?
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hah have we come up with the new boy scout hand shake yet?
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hah have we come up with the new boy scout hand shake yet?
lol :)
You know, we could always get a set of challenge coins made up. That would be cool. :)
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Challenge coins?
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Yep, challenge coins have been used by clubs and organizations as a method of identifying other members. The idea is, rather than a secret handshake, everyone just keeps this coin in their pocket. So when you meet someone claiming to be a member, you can "challenge" them to show you their coin and prove that they are indeed a member.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin)
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You know, we could always get a set of challenge coins made up. That would be cool.
I was thinking we would just wear our armour under our seemingly-normal street clothes ;)
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I was thinking we would just wear our armour under our seemingly-normal street clothes ;)
The helmet might make that look kinda strange. (as if the pauldrons and everything else wouldn't) :)
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I was thinking we would just wear our armour under our seemingly-normal street clothes ;)
The helmet might make that look kinda strange. (as if the pauldrons and everything else wouldn't) :)
err for me the only way that would be possible is if I wore a muumuu dress! :D
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err for me the only way that would be possible is if I wore a muumuu dress! :D
Now THAT would be a sight to see... A muumuu over armor on Sir Brian! lol... I wonder if I could photoshop a simulation of this. :)
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CRAP! I’ve become a muse to my own destruction! :D
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CRAP! I’ve become a muse to my own destruction! :D
(http://modernchivalry.org/pictures/photoshop/sir-brian-muumuu_512x640.jpg) (http://modernchivalry.org/pictures/photoshop/sir-brian-muumuu_960x1200.jpg)
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HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHA
now you know he needs some furs around the edges ;)
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I suppose this is recompense for the Justin Bieber poster I gave you as a Birthday present huh? :P
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Hey, at least I made it green instead of hot pink or something. :)
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LOL, now that's really funny, glad I wasn't drinking anything when I saw that photo. That being said- feel free to use that statement as you will, I think it could be said better but its a start.
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Is it the armor or the muumuu that makes me look fat? :D
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Well I wouldn't say that but Don Ho may want his shirt back
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Yeah, that's EXACTLY what I was envisioning! :D
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Think you should make the bottom hem shorter, let's see those armored gams! lol
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Hey, baby, do those chauses go ALL the way up? :-*
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Hey, baby, do those chauses go ALL the way up? :-*
Dude, that's just not right... ;)
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*sigh* Such is the banter amongst knights prior to the list! :)
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And you bear it with the expected aplomb. (Sir Edward started it with the dress) lol
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I always dreamed of being a knight, but not for the attention, or rewards but for the opportunity to do the right thing and stand for more than I am. Our choices define us in life, and we all have had our tests, and failed at times, yet its that fact that we are here still dreaming of what should be that counts.
Most elegantly stated good Sir! :)
I propose to all our esteemed colleges that we adopt this statement has one of our founding creeds of our order!
What say you?
I second that!
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Hahahahahaha, That's hilarious Sir Edward.
Sir Brian, I think this may go farther than a Justin Bieber poster, as one you can put away in a closet. This we can spam to the point of it being the very first thing that appears when someone plugs in your name to the compooter. (So Evil.... ;D)
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Well you have to admit he is rather fetching in it. It would make a great dare, don't you all think? Almost Monty Python, lets see three or four of us dress as such, invisable horse, and squires with coconuts...
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LOL - for those who do not know what we are, we appear as men in dresses anyway, with lots of heavy jewelry.
Sir Edward? ;)
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Hah, maybe I just need to grab a Monty Python image and paste our heads in. :)
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That'd be simpler wouldn't it? lol
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Just a bit......
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Just wondering, how would someone who doesn't live in the DC area go about joining your order?
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Just wondering, how would someone who doesn't live in the DC area go about joining your order?
Distance isn't a problem at all. Well, to be accurate, it's a minor hindrance. :) As I pointed out earlier, right now we're in the paradoxical situation of needing knights to bring in new members, but no one has been knighted yet. Once we get the first knightings done, then technically we'll be free to start bringing people in. I suppose if we wanted to induct some new initiates before then, we could, but we'd have to do so outside the rules as written.
The system is designed to require two sponsor knights for a new membership. So the intent is for the applicant to hang out with us and let us all get to know each other, then they can get a couple of knights to sponsor them to join. For more distant folks, the best thing is to participate here on the forum.
Since we haven't done the initial knightings, and it's taking longer than I planned, maybe we need to discuss bending the rules a little until we get them done.
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Okay thanks. :)
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Just an update for everyone, especially those wanting to join. We haven't forgotten you. :)
I'm trying to kick up the discussions in the private area of the forum to get the ball rolling a little faster. It's now been six months since we kicked it all off, according to the join-dates on our roll of arms, which is a bit sobering. :)
We want new members to join, and to get some progress going. But you know, the whole "herding cats" thing always applies in any organization. Stay tuned.
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meow
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Herding cats? I'd like to see that...I have a hard enough time corralling my ONE little guy! lol
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the whole "herding cats" thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8
I'm the fat white one :D
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Lots of rules updates in the bylaws!
http://orderofthemarshal.org/ (http://orderofthemarshal.org/)
We're getting closer. We'll get our first few knightings done soon, then we can start inducting new members within the rules.
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Do we have a final listing of knights? Who's going to knight you, Knight Commander?
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Do we have a final listing of knights? Who's going to knight you, Knight Commander?
I think we're waiting to hear if the king of VARF would do it?
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They're an Elizabethan faire. So they have a Queen, not king. :) I didn't think to ask Kat to ask them about that. But since we'll be writing up our own ceremony and the like, and they're pretty busy with the faire, I'd assumed we would be performing it ourselves.
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Too bad we couldn't corral Prince Edward when he was here...to get it done by royalty? DREAMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
From the hand of the Queen would be most excellent (Faire Queen I mean) but I'm for whatever's clever.
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Well not to be a stickler for details, but I do not consider an actress who is playing the part of royalty (no matter how well) to be authorized to bestow knighthood upon a person. I consider someone who has been actually knighted by some noble or knight of a legitimate realm, society or order (military or religious) to be the premier qualified person to bestow knighthood upon another. Sir Edward was knighted while part of a now defunct society and by my above criteria qualified to bestow a knighthood upon me. So if you are willing and find me worthy Sir Edward I would humbly ask that you perform the knighting ceremony for me.
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Well not to be a stickler for details, but I do not consider an actress who is playing the part of royalty (no matter how well) to be authorized to bestow knighthood upon a person. I consider someone who has been actually knighted by some noble or knight of a legitimate realm, society or order (military or religious) to be the premier qualified person to bestow knighthood upon another. Sir Edward was knighted while part of a now defunct society and by my above criteria qualified to bestow a knighthood upon me. So if you are willing and find me worthy Sir Edward I would humbly ask that you perform the knighting ceremony for me.
I would be honored, good sir!
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Well not to be a stickler for details, but I do not consider an actress who is playing the part of royalty (no matter how well) to be authorized to bestow knighthood upon a person. I consider someone who has been actually knighted by some noble or knight of a legitimate realm, society or order (military or religious) to be the premier qualified person to bestow knighthood upon another. Sir Edward was knighted while part of a now defunct society and by my above criteria qualified to bestow a knighthood upon me. So if you are willing and find me worthy Sir Edward I would humbly ask that you perform the knighting ceremony for me.
I would be honored, good sir!
I second Sir Brian's notion- and the honor would be ours. I can't believe it slipped my mind that you have already received the Accolade, Sir Edward; so you're a Knight already. We just need you to dub us!
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I second Sir Brian's notion- and the honor would be ours. I can't believe it slipped my mind that you have already received the Accolade, Sir Edward; so you're a Knight already. We just need you to dub us!
Oh, I fully plan to be knighted by you guys too. :)
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Well not to be a stickler for details, but I do not consider an actress who is playing the part of royalty (no matter how well) to be authorized to bestow knighthood upon a person. I consider someone who has been actually knighted by some noble or knight of a legitimate realm, society or order (military or religious) to be the premier qualified person to bestow knighthood upon another. Sir Edward was knighted while part of a now defunct society and by my above criteria qualified to bestow a knighthood upon me. So if you are willing and find me worthy Sir Edward I would humbly ask that you perform the knighting ceremony for me.
I would be honored, good sir!
I would be honored if you would return the favor as well!
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I must say, it is a definite show of trust- otherwise I would not be on bended knee with bared steel so close to my neck! lol
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ooooooooooooh i see how it is Sir Brian. you wanna go that route i can check mate Sir Edward ;)ehhehe someone else was a knight and KING in that same defunct society hahahahahhahahaa
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ooooooooooooh i see how it is Sir Brian. you wanna go that route i can check mate Sir Edward ;)ehhehe someone else was a knight and KING in that same defunct society hahahahahhahahaa
Yeah, yeah... whatever. :)
(It's good to be the king!) :)
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Wolf, you were the King? :)
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Wolf, you were the King? :)
He was a king. :) We used states as the boundaries for kingdoms, so he had the WV kingdom. We had another king over here in VA.
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Oh I see...so he's tossing around rank now is he? lol
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hey Sir Edward, remember the ole "God Shave the Queen" bit ehhehehe poor queen from NC hahaha
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You know what's funny? I'm still finding stuff from UEMA/DAGGER as I'm cleaning up my house. I just found my UEMA membership card.
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:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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I also found my certificate of appointment as Marshal of Gryphon's Chase. :) Wow, these bring back memories.
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and i bet if u look real hard you'll find a 10 year old pizza like we did when we moved u out of your dads house ehhehehe
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and i bet if u look real hard you'll find a 10 year old pizza like we did when we moved u out of your dads house ehhehehe
Hah! Impossible. I only lived there for about 2 years. Pictures or it didn't happen. :)
Boy, we're really off topic now.
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THAT story begs telling Sir Edward...we await you!
lol
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Maybe he was saving for a siege ???
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THAT story begs telling Sir Edward...we await you!
lol
Nah, nothing to tell. I lived at my dad's place for a couple of years between college and the working world, and lots of folks came to help me move. And it was only when we were loading the truck that we realized how much there was to move. My dad kept magically turning up more boxes. Some of which were things I didn't think were mine... you know... "while you're at it, you can have this too!" Hehe. :)
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I can't believe it slipped my mind that you have already received the Accolade, Sir Edward; so you're a Knight already. We just need you to dub us!
... And to get this back on topic...
I did want to reply to this again and clarify. I was knighted in another organization (a long time ago, and it doesn't exist anymore, and mostly just to justify having me create an Order for others to be knighted into, etc)... but I haven't been knighted into this Order.
A person could be a Knight of Columbus, or a Knight of the Garter, but until we knight them, they're not a Knight of the Marshal. So I need the ceremony too, whichever way you look at it.
The question then becomes, what order do we do the ceremonies? Should someone knight me first so that I can then turn around and knight everyone else? Or the other way around? :)
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I am of the mind that, once a knight, always a knight and you have been dubbed a knight already. Induction into an order is another thing, since it is your order, I think the 3 of us that you knight can swear an oath of recognition and fealty to our new Knight Commander (you).
I'm looking at it like this- you have already been dubbed a knight; from that point on, you are a knight no matter where you find yourself. I don't feel that you need to be inducted into your own order- if it were not for you, none of us would be here now, on this site- preparing to join your Order.
However, I suspect you do like the ceremonial aspects (as do we all) so that's all to the good as well. In short, do as you like- we shall support it. :)
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I am in agreement with Sir William insofar as once a knight always a knight. However I can certainly understand and wholeheartedly agree that some form of ceremony is required with the start of a new order and the raising of the order’s first Knight Commander.
Perhaps those newly knighted members could then conduct a separate and different ceremony of raising you up to the station of Knight Commander along with some token of the new position?
I was thinking perhaps using the challenge coin as a pendant and add it to your knight’s chain. All order members could have the garter but only the KC would have the challenge coin pendant. :-\
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Sir Brian, I like that...the newly belted knights can then raise up their KC. I like the challenge coin/pendant idea as well. What say you, Sir Edward?
If we do do that, it'd be nice if we had the pendant ready for the ceremony.
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Perhaps those newly knighted members could then conduct a separate and different ceremony of raising you up to the station of Knight Commander along with some token of the new position?
I like this idea. I think that Sir Edward should knight the other members first, as they haven't received an accolade from any other organization (that I know of), their giving Sir Edward the accolade first seems backwards, as he is the only one knighted elsewhere at this point.
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That's not a bad idea. Anyone have any suggestions as to how that part of the ceremony should differ?
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An idea.
Upon completion of the knighting ceremony, perhaps the newly knighted can then swear oaths of loyalty to the Order, and to the first Knight Commander of said Order, Lord Edward of Toton, something like that?
I mean, we should give it the gravitas we receive during the accolade, no? Something like:
"I, Sir Your Name Here do solemnly swear to uphold the Order with all honor and chivalry, and agree to abide by the rulings of the Knight Commander as well as the bylaws of said Order as they are written and shall discharge my duties as a Knight of the Order of the Marshal with all of the honesty and integrity I possess as a Knight and as Head of my House."
Or something very like. Ideas, thoughts, suggestions, criticisms?
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Hmm we can work the fealty oath to the KC after this perhaps?
I was thinking that one of us new knights could officiate by addressing all present that as a new order we would now raise up one among us to bear the mantle of leadership for our knightly order. He (Sir William or I) should mention that as representatives of our order we will preside over the ceremony and see that the will of the order is fulfilled.
The candidate should then be called forth to and kneel before the two officiating knights.
Knight One: “"Who comes before us seeking the mantle of Leadership?"”
KC: “"I do! Sir Edward ..." (and whatever applicable titles you wish to add).
Knight Two: “"Whom do you seek to Serve?"”
KC: “"My brethren both great and small in station within the Order of the Marshall."”
Both Knights in Unison: “"And how will you command them?"”
KC: “"In Honor, Chivalry, Truth and righteous Humility."”
Knight One addressing the entire Order: “"Brethren do you accept Sir Edward as your Knight Commander of our Order? Signify your consent with an AYE".
Knight Two presents the knight’s chain with the Knight Commander Pendant and places it around the Knight Commander's neck.
Knight One and Two in Unison: "Arise Sir Edward and accept our homage and our oaths of fealty."
"I, Sir Your Name Here do solemnly swear to uphold the Order with all honor and chivalry, and agree to abide by the rulings of the Knight Commander as well as the bylaws of said Order as they are written and shall discharge my duties as a Knight of the Order of the Marshal with all of the honesty and integrity I possess as a Knight and as Head of my House."
What do you all think?
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I like it. I'm horrible with memorization, so I'm thinking some scrolls are in order. :)
Since we don't currently have a medallion, perhaps just a symbolic chain will suffice? I can bring a box-chain I made a while back.
(to those who don't have access to the Order's forum area, this is all coming right on the heals of working out the ceremony for knighting the other knights, and a certificate design to give them)
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I like Sir Brian's a good deal better than mine own...I put forth that his is the delivery we go with. I don't think a colee will be necessary for you, Sir Edward.
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ah well then, i don't have to be at the knighting ceremony since i dont need to be knighted ;) i mean i reeeeeealllllyyyy wanna come and see you guys but sigh, kids come first. i can just oath to the new order.
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ah well then, i don't have to be at the knighting ceremony since i dont need to be knighted ;) i mean i reeeeeealllllyyyy wanna come and see you guys but sigh, kids come first. i can just oath to the new order.
What? Of course we'll knight you. Just later. :)
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ah well then, i don't have to be at the knighting ceremony since i dont need to be knighted ;) i mean i reeeeeealllllyyyy wanna come and see you guys but sigh, kids come first. i can just oath to the new order.
What? Of course we'll knight you. Just later. :)
Yeah...You're not wheedling out of getting slapped around THAT easily! :P
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but did u just not say once a knight always a knight. ;) i believe i was in the silver sword and ummm what was that one of connor sinclairs? i cant remember the name of that one.
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but did u just not say once a knight always a knight. ;) i believe i was in the silver sword and ummm what was that one of connor sinclairs? i cant remember the name of that one.
Pictures or it didn't happen! If you do happen to dig some up then that will be good enough for me but I think
Prior knights joining the order should traverse through a gauntlet of order members to reach the KC and make his oath of fealty...warhammers are optional ;)
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but did u just not say once a knight always a knight. ;) i believe i was in the silver sword and ummm what was that one of connor sinclairs? i cant remember the name of that one.
"Coeur de Leon" I think is what it was called.
I guess we can leave that up to people that are already knights. If they want the ceremony, we can give it. And if not, we can just give them the certificate when we've chosen them to be knights within the Order (same sponsorship and requirements rules apply, it's just an optional ceremony at that point). --- thoughts?
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but did u just not say once a knight always a knight. ;) i believe i was in the silver sword and ummm what was that one of connor sinclairs? i cant remember the name of that one.
Actually, it was I who said that. However, Sir Brian's suggestion of running the gauntlet is a good one...and a good way to welcome in a new brother Knight (who is already a knight).
Yes, pics...or I'll believe it happened but THEY won't. lol
What's that? No ceremony- no knighting! >:(
*bangs spear on shield*
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I think
Prior knights joining the order should traverse through a gauntlet of order members to reach the KC and make his oath of fealty...warhammers are optional ;)
Yes, completely optional. They could use poleaxes, halberds, or longswords instead. :)
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I say we keep it to mailed gauntlets and clubs and hammers- it wouldn't do to draw blood but we do want them to FEEL it.
(evil grin)
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Yes, pics...or I'll believe it happened but THEY won't. lol
Until pics of that dwarven armor is produced, I refuse to believe anything without pics. :D
I guess we can leave that up to people that are already knights. If they want the ceremony, we can give it. And if not, we can just give them the certificate when we've chosen them to be knights within the Order (same sponsorship and requirements rules apply, it's just an optional ceremony at that point). --- thoughts?
That seems reasonable to me, since we'll have to make accommodations for members who aren't within reasonable distance for a ceremony, anyway.
Except for Sir Wolf. He has to be knighted. And I'll go so far as to say, in his dwarven armor.
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Yes, pics...or I'll believe it happened but THEY won't. lol
Until pics of that dwarven armor is produced, I refuse to believe anything without pics. :D
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/1998/vafest98a.jpg) close enough in 99 of leather armour
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Wow, Sir Wolf! I never knew you were in a Dio video! :D
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Except for Sir Wolf. He has to be knighted. And I'll go so far as to say, in his dwarven armor.
Seconded.
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That looks like something out of a D&D game...very cool, guys!
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Yes, pics...or I'll believe it happened but THEY won't. lol
Until pics of that dwarven armor is produced, I refuse to believe anything without pics. :D
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/1998/vafest98a.jpg) close enough in 99 of leather armour
Hmm you seem to be a bit tall for a dwarf, perhaps you were of the mountain dwarf variety? Also a youngling dwarf at that considering you had barely begun growing your beard! ;)
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A bit short for a Storm Trooper though, eh? ;)
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Wow, that photo is from 1998. It's been 13 years already. Where does the time go?
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Hey, hey...lets not get into that discussion...I would just as soon forget that 20 years have nearly passed since I graduated from high school. Or that I never actually went to college. My parents swear I'm not a disappointment...think they might be lying to make me feel better?
lol
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I was just wondering where everyone is from? I'm in Philadelphia, PA...I know a couple are in Maryland...guess there's no chance on getting a set area to meet once in awhile ?
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My parents swear I'm not a disappointment...think they might be lying to make me feel better?
Well you are not in jail, you are married to a beautiful and caring woman, and you have a steady job and endeavor to live your life honorably that is more than enough to make any parent proud and speaking as a parent of an adult child (she turned 28 this March) who is happily married and is an honest and sincere person for which Rosemary are immensely proud of her, I can assure you that your parents are not lying to you! ;)
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I was just wondering where everyone is from? I'm in Philadelphia, PA...I know a couple are in Maryland...guess there's no chance on getting a set area to meet once in awhile ?
Yeah, we have several forum members in MD, some in VA, a couple in WV, and others from all over the place, including across the pond. If you're in the mid-atlantic area (which of course PA is), this seems to be the region we have the most members in so far. It's mostly because of the forum spreading faster by word of mouth than by google.
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Wow, that photo is from 1998. It's been 13 years already. Where does the time go?
Another good question would be, how many years is 13 years in dwarf years? :D
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Sir James...depends on the dwarf. lol
Sir Brian, I thank you...even now I sometimes wonder...but you make excellent points. As I have children not much younger than yours maybe I should be more concerned with what THEY think of me, eh?
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wait wth? Sir William? I thought you were my age!
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How old're you, Sir Wolf? I'm 36. My girls are 20 and 16. 8)
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How old're you, Sir Wolf? I'm 36. My girls are 20 and 16. 8)
Ah, so you just started younger than Wolf did, that's all. :)
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I did, I did. There's a good thing that comes of that though- I'm not yet 40 but they're almost adults now...my eldest girl is an adult. She'll be 21 in January, the youngest turns 17 next month. She'll be a senior come September.
Sir Wolf, and all the rest that have little children still- take many pictures and videos, thoroughly enjoy the time when they're young...they grow up incredibly quickly. Sometimes, it seems like just yesterday I got my cap and gown and in about a year, my youngest child will do the same.
Sobering thought, that.
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ok ya i'm 35. i was like :o you look good for your age hehehe. ya nothing wrong with having kidos their age. you'll get to enjoy grand kids hopefully longer than i ever will :) and i hear thats really where the fun is at (cause you can feed them Mt Dew and Reese's cups and send them home ahhahaha)
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That's what my Dad says- he loves it when the grands come to visit! I don't recall him being that enthusiastic about me and my siblings. lol
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hahaahha
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Seems I have been away from the Forum way too long :(, seems I am missing out on alot. Good thing I made it down to VARF on Sunday and was informed of the happenings. I am excited to hear about the forming of an order.
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Sir Jason, good to see you! I think I may've said as much on another thread but hey, one more won't hurt!
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Just a couple questions. Does the current setup i am using qualify? If so, Where do I sign up?
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Just a couple questions. Does the current setup i am using qualify? If so, Where do I sign up?
Absolutely! You're kit meets the garb requirement, as to the rest...
http://orderofthemarshal.org/bylaws/membership/index (http://orderofthemarshal.org/bylaws/membership/index) ;)
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ahhh Sir Brian you could have at least strung him along... like having him buy each of us a piece of armour or a sword or something at least hahahahahhaa jkjk
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OK, here's how membership works in a nutshell (though it's all in the bylaws as Sir Brian pointed out)... To join, you need two knights to sponsor you. You're brought in as a yeoman, and after 90 days you become a squire.
To be knighted, you must first be a squire, and then get 3 knights to sponsor you for knighthood, and your kit must also be "complete" (whatever that means for the look you're trying to achieve).
Since we don't have any knights yet, we've been having a hard time figuring out how to proceed, since they're needed for the sponsoring. But since that will change on Sunday, our remaining days of being "crippled" are now in the single-digits. We'll have three knights total assuming the expected people show up. :)
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Good then all I have to do is show up on Sunday and get 2 knights to sponsor me.
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Good then all I have to do is show up on Sunday and get 2 knights to sponsor me.
Yep! :)
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Yes and that can be arranged...for a small fee, of course. ;)
What? I owe this usurer...its either pay him or kill him and chivalry dictates I must pay the man. lol
I'm kidding, kidding!
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So this means that you will be there this Sunday Sir William?
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Indeed, Sir Jason, it'll be good to see you again. I'm looking forward to the ceremony, not to mention food, ale and wenches! There will be wenches, no?
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Im sure their will be wenches.
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Of course it'll be sunny all week, but there may be t-storms on Sunday.
http://weather.yahoo.com/united-states/virginia/spotsylvania-2497703/ (http://weather.yahoo.com/united-states/virginia/spotsylvania-2497703/)
Still, usually that means we might get a short storm, and the rest of the day will be cloudy. I think I can deal with that.
Anyway, we're all set for the VARF knightings on schedule. Kat and I got email confirmation that they're expecting us, and the photographer (Kevin) and the security folks have been informed. They know to find us at the Labyrinth, and have extra peace-ties on hand if we need them.
This past weekend we checked out the Labyrinth. I think the throne in the middle will make a handy spot to put papers, spurs, etc, while we get started.
What I didn't think to get was some sort of kneeling pillow or anything. How well do your armors accommodate kneeling, Sir Brian and Sir William?
I'm all set on getting the certificates and ceremony scrolls together. I'll be signing/dating them in advance, and I got a nice period-looking leather portfolio to carry them in. The wax-stamp I got is a rampant lion, it just faces the wrong way. No biggie. The whole left/right thing wasn't actually taken that seriously in period, as evidenced by the fact that they'd flip arms backwards on some effigies to make them face the altar in a church.
Since we need to start right at 10, I'm going to try to get there relatively early and have some extra time. My plan is to get a hotel room, and then try to be on site around 9-9:15. That'll give me time to throw some armor on, make sure my papers are all together, etc.
If it rains at the time of the ceremony, I'll leave the certificates in the car and get them to you guys later in the day.
I'm looking forward to it!
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My boots actually come over my knees so I'm set as far as kneeling goes. What hotel are you staying at, Sir Edward? I'm still debating on whether or not to go that route as I'm going to be solo this time around.
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Kat sent me info about this one: http://www.wytestonesuitesfredericksburg.com (http://www.wytestonesuitesfredericksburg.com), though I haven't booked it yet. This is probably about a half-hour from the faire site.
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Oh, that looks real nice man...thanks for posting it.
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I can kneel readily enough with my armor. ;)
Those ceremony scrolls include one for your own Knight Commander ceremony? ~ That is assuming you are ok with the ceremony I proposed?
Hmm we can work the fealty oath to the KC after this perhaps?
I was thinking that one of us new knights could officiate by addressing all present that as a new order we would now raise up one among us to bear the mantle of leadership for our knightly order. He (Sir William or I) should mention that as representatives of our order we will preside over the ceremony and see that the will of the order is fulfilled.
The candidate should then be called forth to and kneel before the two officiating knights.
Knight One: “"Who comes before us seeking the mantle of Leadership?"”
KC: “"I do! Sir Edward ..." (and whatever applicable titles you wish to add).
Knight Two: “"Whom do you seek to Serve?"”
KC: “"My brethren both great and small in station within the Order of the Marshall."”
Both Knights in Unison: “"And how will you command them?"”
KC: “"In Honor, Chivalry, Truth and righteous Humility."”
Knight One addressing the entire Order: “"Brethren do you accept Sir Edward as your Knight Commander of our Order? Signify your consent with an AYE".
Knight Two presents the knight’s chain with the Knight Commander Pendant and places it around the Knight Commander's neck.
Knight One and Two in Unison: "Arise Sir Edward and accept our homage and our oaths of fealty."
"I, Sir Your Name Here do solemnly swear to uphold the Order with all honor and chivalry, and agree to abide by the rulings of the Knight Commander as well as the bylaws of said Order as they are written and shall discharge my duties as a Knight of the Order of the Marshal with all of the honesty and integrity I possess as a Knight and as Head of my House."
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Hey, if we are going to do that, maybe print out a couple of copies so we're all in unison?
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Yep, I think this is the portion I'll be printing:
The candidate should then be called forth to and kneel before the two officiating knights.
Knight One: “"Who comes before us seeking the mantle of Leadership?"”
KC: “"I do! Sir Edward ..." (and whatever applicable titles you wish to add).
Knight Two: “"Whom do you seek to Serve?"”
KC: “"My brethren both great and small in station within the Order of the Marshall."”
Both Knights in Unison: “"And how will you command them?"”
KC: “"In Honor, Chivalry, Truth and righteous Humility."”
Knight One addressing the entire Order: “"Brethren do you accept Sir Edward as your Knight Commander of our Order? Signify your consent with an AYE".
Knight Two presents the knight’s chain with the Knight Commander Pendant and places it around the Knight Commander's neck.
Knight One and Two in Unison: "Arise Sir Edward and accept our homage and our oaths of fealty."
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Good luck all, I will be there in spirit if not the flesh.
G
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Cool! Ok so don't forget your knightly chain (wish we had enough time to design and have fabricated a more official medallion for you!) :-\
Sir William which role do you wish to take in the ceremony? Thing #1 or Thing #2 ;)
@ Sir Gerard: Most definately good sir as you've been an inspiration to us all since joining us! :)
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Can't wait for the weekend to get here. I will be there for the event as well. Are you all meeting at the gate first thing then walking down together for the ceremony or are they letting you in early?
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Can't wait for the weekend to get here. I will be there for the event as well. Are you all meeting at the gate first thing then walking down together for the ceremony or are they letting you in early?
Yeah, that's the plan. Meet up and then go over together.
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I'll defer to your seniority and be Thing #2 - and I don't mean age, I just meant time put in on Modern Chivalry! :)
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I'll defer to your seniority and be Thing #2 - and I don't mean age, I just meant time put in on Modern Chivalry! :)
Funny how either way is applicable! ;)
Very well then I'll take on the role of Knight One, I suppose you will want to give your oath of fealty second as well?
Anyway, we're all set for the VARF knightings on schedule. Kat and I got email confirmation that they're expecting us, and the photographer (Kevin) and the security folks have been informed. They know to find us at the Labyrinth, and have extra peace-ties on hand if we need them.
Does that mean they will allow us to carry our weapons without peace-ties until after the ceremony? If so then I’ll forego my MDRF ‘special’ and carry my Tinker practice longsword instead. ;)
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Sure! Let's do this!
Leave the MDRF special at home...bring your sword! We can peace-tie them at the gate, after the ceremony, whatever...it'll just feel good to be carrying one.
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Does that mean they will allow us to carry our weapons without peace-ties until after the ceremony? If so then I’ll forego my MDRF ‘special’ and carry my Tinker practice longsword instead. ;)
You know, I'm not sure. Hmmm, maybe I should throw my leatherman in my pouch in case I need to pop a tie off.
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Well while you're packing why don't you throw in your practice sword as well? Maybe we can do a little free play in the parking lot before we shuck out of the steel? I'm bringing my bascinet, leather clamshell gauntlets and safety glasses just in case the attending crowd demands we have a grand melee or something! ;)
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ooo and the kitchen sink yeah yeah tht too, bring it haahahahah
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And blankets, lots of fluffy blankets! And pillows!
Oh, wrong venue? lol
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ooo and the kitchen sink yeah yeah tht too, bring it haahahahah
Hey that’s a great idea! I can use that to drop on the peasants when we do the castle siege reenactment! :D
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I dunno man...good porcelain is hard to find, unless you're into dismantling old, used privies. LOL
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Is a peace tie more than something (leather strip) securing the sword in it's scabbard?
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They use zip ties at VARF. Although they've let my cord tied rondel get by. :)
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They use zip ties at VARF. Although they've let my cord tied rondel get by. :)
Ah, I was wondering what difference a bit of string around a handle would make if someone was crazy enough to draw a live blade for ill means, amongst a group of people who likely would enjoy thrashing such an individual for doing so.
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drunks.... nuff said hehehhe that and stupid people. or stupid drunks or ehhehehe
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Huzzah and congratulations to you, Gentlemen! I am sincerely impressed by your noble quest and I feel privileged that I was able to witness your ceremony today. All the best to you in your future endeavors!
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Huzzah!
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Huzzah!
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Huzzah and congratulations to you, Gentlemen! I am sincerely impressed by your noble quest and I feel privileged that I was able to witness your ceremony today. All the best to you in your future endeavors!
I'm glad you were able to be there! We had a great turnout for this, and things went pretty well over all. We ended up going "off script" slightly, but I think it worked out OK.
I haven't weeded out the bad pictures or the duplicates yet, but here's the shots taken with my camera:
http://ed.toton.org/cgi-bin/gallery.pl?g=2011.accolades (http://ed.toton.org/cgi-bin/gallery.pl?g=2011.accolades)
And of course a good group photo:
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/accolades/b2168.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/accolades/b2168b.jpg)
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Huzzah! (photoshop me and Chuck the viking horned goat in the shot!!!!! :D)
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I wish I could've been there, looks like you guys had fun.
Should shop me in there as well
Well this pic would be good for it anyway, it has me and Sir Matthew in it:
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/226898_2057259594376_1331193069_3389540_234843_n.jpg)
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Man, what a great day! Wish you other gents could've joined us but we'll all have an Order meet and greet eventually I would think...Lord Commander? We should, if only to get a group shot of all current members- and of course, to drink ale and talk battlefield tactics!
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Let me extend a hearty HUZZAH to our two newest knights, Sir Brian and Sir William, and also our newest member and Yeoman, Sir Jason!
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Huzzah and congratulations to you, Gentlemen! I am sincerely impressed by your noble quest and I feel privileged that I was able to witness your ceremony today. All the best to you in your future endeavors!
I'm glad you were able to be there! We had a great turnout for this, and things went pretty well over all. We ended up going "off script" slightly, but I think it worked out OK.
I haven't weeded out the bad pictures or the duplicates yet, but here's the shots taken with my camera:
(varf) http://ed.toton.org/cgi-bin/gallery.pl?g=2011.accolades (http://ed.toton.org/cgi-bin/gallery.pl?g=2011.accolades)
And of course a good group photo:
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/accolades/b2168.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/accolades/b2168b.jpg)
Hear hear! It was great seeing you again Pam as well as finally getting to meet Sir James and his lovely wife Dina. Matthew it is always a pleasure to see you and your beautiful bride and a great honor to have a chance to share a tankard with such noble persons!
Here is a link for some of our photos of the day!
http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/VARF/The%20Order/ (http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/VARF/The%20Order/)
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HUZZAH! HUZZAH! HUZZAH!
I am proud to be a Knight within the Order of the Marshal. And it was a pleasure meeting SwordChick in person- my apologies for the mixup. ;)
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When is the next order meet? I wonder if I could make it. I like the pics too, wouldn't mind getting knighted myself even though I'm poorly equipped. I think I can make it to NJ ren faire next weekend.
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I don't know, Sir Ulrich...I know I can't make next weekend as I'll be in Cali- but some of the other Knights might. If we make it to August w/out any more knightings, perhaps they can be performed at MDRF? Unfortunately, no swords allowed (costume or real, but Sirs Edward and Brian have found a temporary workaround lol) but we could still all be in attendance for the most part...
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Yeah, the next couple of weeks are bad for me as well.
We'll definitely need to figure out knightings, meetings/events, etc, in terms of how to handle these things with our more distant brethren here. For those of us in the DC-area, it's not as difficult.
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We could always coordinate a trip to see/meet our further-flung brothers...coordinate being the operative word; I wouldn't be averse to it. Naturally, I'm speaking along the coast mostly- although we could go further inland with some careful planning. I still want to go across the pond and take Sir Gerard up on his pint(s)! :)
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oh wow that looks awesome
Sir Edward, that surcoat is too cool
Sir William, my helmet errr YOUR new helmet looks great!!!!!!!!!!
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When speaking with Nathan and getting his perspective of his pending knighting ceremony, he expressed a desire to have his done at his church and he was going to ask his priest if we could do it as his church. Since he lives in West Virginia as does James and Sir Wolf perhaps if they don't mind we could have their ceremonies there as well? I suppose in Sir Wolf's case he would only have to make his vow of fealty to the Knight Commander...war hammers are still optional. :)
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HAH! hehehhe.
it matters not where or if mine does happen. i can go with the flow :)
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I congratulate all of you who are about to be dubbed as Knights of this fine fellowship. For those who have received the Accolade, I salute thee!
My journey to Knighthood has begun but I believe that it will be many months before I meet all of thee and to be inducted into the Order. The time for me to receive the Accolade will come, but not at the present moment. I must still learn and continue to walk the Path of Chivalry.
Ehre sei Ehre!
(Glory to Honor!)
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Congratulations most noble sirs. You all looked fantastic. Where there many onlookers to witness the ceremony??
Thanks for the photographs.
G
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A small crowd was gathering as it progressed but it was when the fair first opened. :)
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Plus there were a few people from the faire's staff/cast present as well. Not a huge crowd, but it was enough to line up along the entrance to the labyrinth area that we did it in.
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When speaking with Nathan and getting his perspective of his pending knighting ceremony, he expressed a desire to have his done at his church and he was going to ask his priest if we could do it as his church. Since he lives in West Virginia as does James and Sir Wolf perhaps if they don't mind we could have their ceremonies there as well? I suppose in Sir Wolf's case he would only have to make his vow of fealty to the Knight Commander...war hammers are still optional. :)
Should they all happen at the same time, I would go along with that.
Since I'm the "closest" West Virginian of the group, my driveway is always open as a "mid point" to meet at and car pool from. Coming down 340 from Maryland or 7 to 9 from Northern Virginia, I'm only a few miles out of the way to Sir Nathan's area.
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When is the next order meet? I wonder if I could make it. I like the pics too, wouldn't mind getting knighted myself even though I'm poorly equipped. I think I can make it to NJ ren faire next weekend.
Ulrich, before you can be knighted, you must make a petition for knighthood to one of the Knights of the Order, and he and another Knight must then agree to sponsor you for knighthood, after which the Knight Commander will then consider the petition. I believe that is how it currently works.
When speaking with Nathan and getting his perspective of his pending knighting ceremony, he expressed a desire to have his done at his church and he was going to ask his priest if we could do it as his church. Since he lives in West Virginia as does James and Sir Wolf perhaps if they don't mind we could have their ceremonies there as well? I suppose in Sir Wolf's case he would only have to make his vow of fealty to the Knight Commander...war hammers are still optional. :)
Should they all happen at the same time, I would go along with that.
Since I'm the "closest" West Virginian of the group, my driveway is always open as a "mid point" to meet at and car pool from. Coming down 340 from Maryland or 7 to 9 from Northern Virginia, I'm only a few miles out of the way to Sir Nathan's area.
Since it is WV, I must ask what is 'only a few miles out of the way' actually mean? :)
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Typically a mountain or two! ;D
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Ulrich, before you can be knighted, you must make a petition for knighthood to one of the Knights of the Order, and he and another Knight must then agree to sponsor you for knighthood, after which the Knight Commander will then consider the petition. I believe that is how it currently works.
Actually, it takes three sponsors. You only need two to join. Three to get knighted.
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And there you have it!
Sir Brian...I should hope NOT but if it is...well, so be it. ;)
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I'd have to know towns to know for sure, but if your travels bring you over 340 from MD into WV and down 340/9 up to 66 (or 81?), I'm about a mile off the freeway exit. Of course, assuming the path leads through there - it did from Northern Virginia, so I'm taking a best guess.
When is the next order meet? I wonder if I could make it. I like the pics too, wouldn't mind getting knighted myself even though I'm poorly equipped. I think I can make it to NJ ren faire next weekend.
We don't have any restrictions on the type of gear required before knighting, I would think you should be fine. We likely all won't be head to toe in plate armor.