ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Thorsteinn on 2011-03-09, 21:10:49
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The Modern Medieval web show once asked:
"POP QUIZ! Humility, Strength, Courage, Honesty, Prowess, Honor, Courtesy, Justice, Fidelity... Which of these virtues(if any) can stand alone without the others? I have my answer, what is yours?"
So, what's your answer?
Mine was:
Strength.
Without it you cannot enact the other Virtues within the world in a meaningful way.
It is one of the 3 prime virtues of the Olympic Games and the only one of the 3 which is truly more than a physical trait.
Also you can have it preface the other Virtues as well: IE Strength of Humility, Strength of Courage, Strength of Honesty, Etc.
The opposite of Strength is Weakness, and to have Weakness in any of the Virtues is to be in need of improvement.
Finally, without Strength, you cannot even pick your armour box off the ground, and it takes Strength of Mind to begin to walk the Path of Chivalry.
(Formerly known as The Tenacious, and Tenacity is a Strength too.)
-Ivan
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That's a good answer, I like that.
From that list, I'd find it hard to choose. From a broader list, I'd say everything derives from Truth. Honesty, Knowledge, and Wisdom I feel are direct subsets of Truth, and these are necessary to find your way to each of the other virtues. To illustrate my point, I'll paraphrase something I just saw on another forum: What are individual virtues but a set of balances between vices? For instance, courage could be seen as the proper balance on a continuum between cowardice at one end, and foolhardiness at the other.
To know the truth, and have the wisdom to apply it and find your way, is what makes all of the others possible, IMHO. :)
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I too cannot choose any of the virtues of knighthood above the other.
However, if I had to choose one that could stand alone it would be prowess.
No matter how fine a man's words be, no matter how fine a man's intentions be, if he does not posses the skill to fulfill those aspirations and goals, what has he achieved but blowing air into the wind?
A knight must be ready to lead by personal example. One who lacks prowess in what they feel is their true knightly calling will simply make a fool of themselves, similar to a knight who in the name of bravery, charges their horse headlong into a formation of pikes.
Knights are doers. They always have been, and always shall be.
One must not misinterpret my massage here though. I am not advocating that what makes a man a knight is solely skill. A true knight needs all of the other virtues to be a knight in the truest sense.
However, the ability to affect the world, make things happen, and make beautiful dreams reality is what separates a knight from a well-intentioned man. While I am not decrying the well-intentioned man in any sense (They are a sort that is sorely missed and of which more is needed), he is separated from a knight by the ability to accomplish great things. They both may be quite noble, but 'tis the knight who quests and fights, and bleeds for his cause.
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I believe we are of a mind; no single virtue is above the other, but of them all, I feel that Honor stands alone. A man without honor is a man who will always make the wrong choice; he will always be ruled by his baser instincts and desires because he does not know better, or refuses to acknowledge it. Either way, a man without honor is worthy only within sight of eye; do not turn your back on him. An honorable man will strive for honesty; he would train in his areas of weakness that he might serve his lord better and thus increase his strength and prowess; an honorable man will know courage for he will not play the coward, he would see justice done.
Humility, fidelity and courtesy are traits espoused by all who are given the Accolade, but especially by the most puissant of knights- an honorable man would hold himself to such ideals because it is right and just to do so.
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I had a feeling we'd all answer with different ideas. This is EXCELLENT. I love this thread. :)
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I believe we are of a mind; no single virtue is above the other, but of them all, I feel that Honor stands alone. A man without honor is a man who will always make the wrong choice; he will always be ruled by his baser instincts and desires because he does not know better, or refuses to acknowledge it. Either way, a man without honor is worthy only within sight of eye; do not turn your back on him. An honorable man will strive for honesty; he would train in his areas of weakness that he might serve his lord better and thus increase his strength and prowess; an honorable man will know courage for he will not play the coward, he would see justice done.
Humility, fidelity and courtesy are traits espoused by all who are given the Accolade, but especially by the most puissant of knights- an honorable man would hold himself to such ideals because it is right and just to do so.
I wholeheartedly concur Sir William and would have to choose honor above all as well. Strength in muscle, spirit and will are after all finite virtues yet you can hold onto your honor even when at the very end of your strength. The best example of honor IMO was Christ on the cross. At anytime he could have called out to our heavenly Father to send ten thousand legions of angles to rescue him but he chose to honor his Father and remained on the cross until it was finished.
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oh boy how do you answer.
one without the other can be good or can be bad. but together its almost impossible to be bad.
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I vote for honor as well. It is the sense of honor that seperates the knight from the common thug. Certainly a knight, by virtue of his prowess, could take just about anything he wanted from anyone weaker, but it is his sense of honor that compells him to defend those same people instead. For example, William Marshal and Renaud de Chatillion were both knights and both were known for their skill at arms, yet one is held up as the model of chivalry and the other is reviled. A knight without honor is a dangerous creature.
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Remember:
It's not important What you answer is only that you Have an answer that is well thought out & reasoned.
At least I hope that was the point of Sir Gemini's question, come to think I never did ask. Hmmm...
-Ivan
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To me, Honor is the substance of Chivalry. Honor combined with Courage (the mettle of Honor) is a virtuous combination that makes us Knights who we are and what we seek in life.
With the Virtue of Honor in mind, I recall how El Cid (Sir Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar) was challenged and threatened by the King of Spain for setting a moorish general free instead of killing him. He had to face ridicule in the Spanish Court, insults to his father and having to kill the father of his bride Jimena (for not taking back the insults he made to his father). But during all of this, he held true to his honor and succeeded through these trials. He even went on to help recapture Valencia and other territories from the Moors in Africa.
My point is that I agree that Honor is more likely the Virtue that can stand on it's own.
Without Honor, we are nothing, but with Honor we become more than what we are.
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Without Honor, we are nothing, but with Honor we become more than what we are.
That has got to be the best summation of Honor I have ever heard.
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I think courage can stand alone. Without courage, what would you do with strength? Would you be able to speak the truth, or display honor and courtesy, even in the face of adversity? Even if you possessed all other values, without the courage to put them to good use, I don't see the point.
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Personally for me the knightly virtue that can stand alone has to be honesty. You don't have to be physically strong to be honest, but with honesty you will always have honor. That being said some people may not like to hear the honest truth, but the truth is the truth.