ModernChivalry.org
Miscellaneous => The Sallyport => Topic started by: FreelancerJericho on 2014-08-17, 02:47:36
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SCA?
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My only gripe with SCA is the ungodly amount of farbiness. Sure there are some authentic groups/units, but it seems the vast majority are there for fun rather than for historic interpretation and presentation. You'll find everyone's got a strongly held opinion on the spectrum of authenticity.
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I just don't know what it even is. Don't even know what the initials mean.
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Society , creative, anachronism
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http://www.sca.org/links/about.html (http://www.sca.org/links/about.html)
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Here is the Society for Creative Anachronism's Newcomers Portal.
http://welcome.sca.org/ (http://welcome.sca.org/)
You'll find a few members here. Me among them.
-Thorsteinn Raudskeggr
I live in the Province of the Silver Desert (http://www.silverdesert.westkingdom.org/) which is in the Principality of Cynagua (http://cynagua.westkingdom.org/) in the Kingdom of the West (http://www.westkingdom.org/).
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I live in Huffman so I guess Gate's Edge is the closest. This sounds and looks awesome. Just two questions, what's the average age in general, and how exactly do I go about becoming a member?
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I live in Huffman so I guess Gate's Edge is the closest. This sounds and looks awesome. Just two questions, what's the average age in general, and how exactly do I go about becoming a member?
Huffman (State), Gates Edge (Barony)?
Average age varies depending on location (Reno's is higher than Sacramento for example).
While you don't need to be a member to come to events, it is only $35/yr to join. Go to here to join: https://members.sca.org/apps/#Join (https://members.sca.org/apps/#Join)
I've posted to the SCA Facebook page for folks in your area.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/scadiscussiongroup/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/scadiscussiongroup/)
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Would it be OK if I sent you a friend request on fb?
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I live in the Barony of al-Barran in the kingdom of the Outlands...I am here for anything you need and I am in service to whatever you need...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Though I'm not a member of the group, I'm part of the barony of Bahkail.
One of the southernmost of the eastern kingdom baronys, and I am not terribly far from the one of the famous annual Sca events, pennsic.
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My only gripe with SCA is the ungodly amount of farbiness. Sure there are some authentic groups/units, but it seems the vast majority are there for fun rather than for historic interpretation and presentation. You'll find everyone's got a strongly held opinion on the spectrum of authenticity.
It’s true that there’s a very wide range of historically accurate kits in the SCA. I believe it’s due to a combination of:
A) (Intentionally) loosely stated regulations
B) Duration of your membership (generally, longer = more accurate)
C) Time available for the hobby
D) Funds available for the hobby
E) What you personally want out of it (court follower, fighting, hanging out, education, classes, partying, etc.)
F) A 1,000 year time frame from 600 to 1600
F) All the above
With 30,000 members in any organization you’re going to get a wide range of interests and involvement. Heck, even the small Mercenary band I belong to has members up and down this range.
There are strong opinions held by many in regards to historical accuracy and which direction the SCA should go in the future. After two decades I’ve come to the conclusion that each individual must plot their own course. I take care of what I can with my limited means while remaining true to my greatest attraction to the SCA: Hitting people with rattan, repeatedly. :)
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Mercenary band? This greatly interests me.
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I am a member of the Barony of Namron in the Kingdom of Ansteorra. I have also found a broad spectrum of accuracy or interest in accuracy. Honestly it fulfills come of the things I am looking for, for one the people are all awesome. I have never known people who were so very welcoming right from the start, but as far as some of the rules like your king or queen is chosen only through combat and if you want to be a knight you must do armored combat and do it well. I can understand sort of the latter (although personally I think rapier should also qualify) I really don't understand the former. Being able to kick the butt of everyone else with a stick is not a solid basis for the head of government. It just makes you the biggest bully on the playground IMHO.
I am very new to SCA but if I can be of assistance i certainly will try.
Oh as far as mercenary groups, i belong to 2 ish. :D but I can't talk about one of them, sorry.
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Does it count if I am part of the Foxtail Mercenary Company. It may be airsoft, but hey, a mercenary is a mercenary.
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Eh. I like the sound of it though. The one with the highest combat skill is the ruler.
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But why should someone who doesn't do combat but who might do a fantastic job filling that role be precluded simply due to not being a fighter? Why should fighters be the only ones allowed to rule? What makes a good fighter a good ruler?
By the way this is for simple discourse, I am by no means seeking an argument, this is pure curiosity.
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Well I see your point and I'm little confused about it too now.
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Name me another contest that is fair. That shows the person is willing to sacrifice time, money, and body to prove they are worthy. That shows they are willing and able to defend the Kingdom or Principality if need be. Who is willing to prove, not just boast, that they are good, and one that has no judges and no politics in the achieving of the Crown (or at least aught not to).
There is a reason why the 100 Meter Dash is more respected & valued than Rhythmic Gymnastics after all. :)
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To me what will prove willingness to devote time, money, and body to prove they are worthy is devoting just that to your local barony/canton/kingdom for x length of time. To go through certain requirements like running events, donating time to serve at events, putting money into going to every one you can.
Combat is great but it is on very small aspect to the entire game. There are so very many ways to show dedication than just whacking each other with sticks. Politics will always play some part, big or small. The reason for this is that however much one might try not to, people are human. There are politics in combat, I can't tell you how many times in just the time I have been part of the SCA that I have heard this king was accused of Rhinoing and that is how he won, or that fighter should have won this because he was so much better. It happens.
It is just my personal opinion but honestly I think time and effort could be spent to figure out how to make it so that you there are more options for rulers, people who could do a great job if given half a chance but who simply can't under the current system simply because they can't/ don't wish to fight.
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one of the Rulers duties is to take the field with their army. Would you have the Army of Ansteorra led by a weakling or coward?
Why should we fight for a ruler who is unwilling to fight for us?
Do I think that having the most prestigious tourney in many Kingdoms be either Crown or Coronet and that being one of only two real ways to win renown be a right thing? No. However whenever I hear an alternative way of determining the next Ruler it's always said by a person not seeking a better ruler, but a way to put themselves on the throne.
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Joan of Arc was a great leader and never took part in combat.
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Mercenary band? This greatly interests me.
The SCA divides up the “Known World” into:
Kingdoms – Large multi-state / multi-national areas (e.g. Northshield = ND, SD, MN, WI, UP of MI, Manitoba, and NW Ontario)
Barony – Large local groups, usually metropolitan areas (e.g. Nordskogen = St. Paul, Minneapolis, and suburbs)
Canton / Shire / Village – Smaller local groups outside large metropolitan areas
College – Just that, a college campus
These groups are usually mapped along USPS zip code lines.
There are also (officially unrecognized) groups of like-minded people, most often called Households. These households can consist of a Knight and his close group of friends / followers, a group of artisans, a group of fighters, etc. Some Households are small and some are quite large covering many states / countries. They go by many names from households to guilds to hoards to companies. The variety is endless and ever changing.
My local group of friends is called The Mercenary Company Nevermore. We all started out as a group of single 20-something males that liked to travel all over the Midwest hitting people with rattan sticks. We bristled at the idea of being a household and thus called ourselves a mercenary company (potato / potato’). At one point we fielded nearly 20 fighters in pickle barrel armour and bad great helms. Many stories from this youthful era are not PG rated. ;)
Eventually guys moved on to other hobbies, got married, had kids, got divorced, moved to other states, got broken, got old, got sick, or all the above. No we have a core group of 7 who fight (4 with any regularity), our spouses and children. We’ve naturally transitioned to more historically accurate kits, clothing, tents, camps, etc. While far from a living history level of detail, we do present a nice encampment. We still enjoy the camaraderie and evening gatherings, but no longer carry our company bar (complete with blender & brass rail) with us from camp to camp. :)
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Okay yes, if your ruler is supposed to be on the front lines they yeah I can see that but most rulers, while trained to fight, typically did mostly tactics and strategy and sent others off to fight so your ruler should should competence and the ability to lead, not necessarily just be able to pummel really good.
Second I have no interest in being Queen, I don't have the finances nor the time to devote to it, but you mentioned fair and sorry but fair isn't leaving the spot for ruler for fighters alone. By the by just because one doesn't fight armored combat does not make them a coward nor a weakling. And I am no coward nor am I a weakling. Granted I likely would not be able to win against you, but I sure as hell would try.
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Getting fiesty there Eva? XD I'm fine with the way it is, however I like the idea of a king that could pummel my enemies with me.
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Not feisty so much as wanting to make it clear that it isn't a simple matter of if you don't fight you are weak or a coward, if you fight you obviously will make a good king. I understand it is a simple metric to work from however, it is a little too simple in my opinion and leaves a huge chunk of people out. If we are going to talk fair, this is not.
As far as people wanting to be king/queen who aren't fighters, why wouldn't they? Again, a war or battle is about more than people hitting each other, if that were all it took why do we need generals? It is about planning and strategy, it is about looking beyond the immediate. Granted I have never been to an SCA war but honestly how different is it? If it is just two sides smashing into each other then that is a very small war, and rather overly simple.
As I said, I will never have the funds nor the time to be Queen. I have no interest in the job as I see it as a responsibility and one that takes a lot to do well. Saying that, I personally know some people who would make awesome rulers but who simply do not wish to fight. Note I said do not wish to, I doubt very much that choice is always going to based in weakness or cowardliness.
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I think what's going on here is that you guys are looking at this issue from wildly different perspectives. A king and queen in the SCA aren't really analogous in responsibility to a real king or queen in a real monarchy. Eva and Jericho, it seems like you're both looking at this from a realistic perspective of Kings and Queens.
Within the context of the SCA, their system works and makes sense. There are plenty of opportunities to reach high level positions in the SCA without fighting. The Orders of the Laurel and Pelican for example.
The titles within the SCA are confusing for someone used to the terms as they are used in the real world. A duke in real life is subordinate to a king. In the SCA a duke is just the title used to denote a person who has been king more than once.
You have to look at their system within the context of the SCA and its culture, not by comparing it to the real world requirements for good leaders or combatants. It will just confuse the issue.
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Ah you might be right. I suppose my perspective might also be highly biased purely based on ignorance. If the whole purpose of the King is dealing with being seen, being seen fighting, and dealing with the fighters then yes it makes sense.
I completely agree that there are other groups as you mentioned, the Laurels and the Pelicans. There are also the Storms in my own Barony. All are very high ranking members. I think more I just figured the King/Queen had a purpose outside of fighting, and helped actually manage the entire Kingdom.
Thank you for explaining this Sir Ian, that helps.
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I think more I just figured the King/Queen had a purpose outside of fighting, and helped actually manage the entire Kingdom.
They do do that to an extent as far as I know. They are also responsible for a lot of ceremonial aspects in the kingdom. But you have to understand, the SCA is largely a combat-centric society. While the SCA offers tons of opportunity for non-combatants, the fighting is just a huge portion of the SCA culture. A bulk of the events, while supporting the other features and outlets within the SCA usually revolve around a war, or skirmish etc. Because of that cultural paradigm, the SCA as chosen to draw it's leadership from its central activity. It doesn't mean they are the best leaders, or even good ones in the real-world sense of the word. They may be, but what they all are, are good SCA fighters, and that's how the SCA has chosen to go about it.
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Sometimes the SCA reminds me of WoW - large amounts of people role-playing, interacting w/one another at events and going on quests, dressing up and adopting a different style. A really huge game w/a lot of participants that can get complex at times.
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Fair enough I guess. I suppose there is no perfect group, and if I want one that works in a way I think sensible I will have to create it myself but ultimately I do love the SCA, even if at times it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I love fighting, I love combat in general, I love the concepts of knighthood both martial and otherwise. But fighting isn't everything, in fact it is really quite a narrow thing overall and there is so very much more that could be celebrated to the same extent and I can't find a single group that does. *shrugs* no big deal really just meandering thoughts.
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I think that as long as you're enjoying it, does it truly matter? Being crowned by might of arms or popularity contest- which would be more fair?
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I suppose it doesn't matter really. More the rose colored glasses shattering a bit. As for fair, I don't think any system is fair for everyone, but rather you have a very small subset of people to choose from. To be honest the job sounds exhausting, but I guess I like to champion those who might want the job but under the current rule set can't even have a shot either by choice or circumstance. Not saying I have a perfect answer, just trying to give food for thought.
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Being able to kick the butt of everyone else with a stick is not a solid basis for the head of government.
And strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government, either.
Name me another contest that is fair.
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!
That shows the person is willing to sacrifice time, money, and body to prove they are worthy. That shows they are willing and able to defend the Kingdom or Principality if need be. Who is willing to prove, not just boast, that they are good, and one that has no judges and no politics in the achieving of the Crown (or at least aught not to).
False. It shows that one person is able to beat another in combat on any given day. Some people can put 10x the level of effort of their opponent and still lose, due to conditioning, natural talent, unequal gear, or any other list of variables. The level of sacrifice of money, body and time is a poor measure of suitability, in my opinion.
one of the Rulers duties is to take the field with their army. Would you have the Army of Ansteorra led by a weakling or coward?
A good singles fighter does not make a good war leader, and fixation upon their own combat situation, to me, weakens their ability to focus on leading an actual group or army. Personally, I don't want someone on the front lines. I want someone on top of the hill, with an overview of the combat, able to see the entire situation, who can relay orders accordingly. It makes sense being a ruler's duty, as the consensus for choosing a king and queen probably came primarily from a group of fighters, not event organizers or administrative-type people (I'm guessing).
Me? I'll take a weak and cowardly strategic genius capable of leading an army to victory, over somebody who is better at hitting somebody else with a stick before they get hit themselves. ;)
I think what's going on here is that you guys are looking at this issue from wildly different perspectives. A king and queen in the SCA aren't really analogous in responsibility to a real king or queen in a real monarchy.
Yep, this is the biggest point to make. It's odd, but you have to completely disregard history when discussing some things in the SCA, or it won't make any sense.
The titles within the SCA are confusing for someone used to the terms as they are used in the real world. A duke in real life is subordinate to a king. In the SCA a duke is just the title used to denote a person who has been king more than once.
I had no idea about that, but well, perfect example of my statement above.
I think that as long as you're enjoying it, does it truly matter?
This is precisely why I've done armored combat (WMA/HEMA) for 3 years now, have possibly 1 or 2 wins in the course of those 3 years, and still love everything about it. It's not about a W or L for me, it's about having fun doing it... with a side of entertaining and educating folks too. :)
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Sir James, thank you. This is a fantastic post! I also agree with every point you made. Honestly I am loving the SCA as a whole I don't want anyone to think I am dissing it, but I think the way that a couple of portions of it are set up could be done better.
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You guys keep saying history like it has to have happened 500 years ago to matter. Our customs society wide are based on history, the history of the SCA, and soon that history will pass out of living memory. Marion Bradley is dead, Dianna Paxton is very old and Dr Fred Holland (known as Flieg) will probably pass within a decade. All we will have left is the story, the hiStory. So I would advocate for reading up on it's Origins here:
http://history.westkingdom.org/Year0/index.htm (http://history.westkingdom.org/Year0/index.htm)
http://history.westkingdom.org/Year1/FirstTournament.htm (http://history.westkingdom.org/Year1/FirstTournament.htm)
http://history.westkingdom.org/Year1/SecondTournament.htm (http://history.westkingdom.org/Year1/SecondTournament.htm)
and here:
http://aspiesean.tumblr.com/post/65249177484/a-mostly-true-story-of-knights-kings-and (http://aspiesean.tumblr.com/post/65249177484/a-mostly-true-story-of-knights-kings-and)
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As stated above, don’t assume SCA structures or titles are based upon historical example. It’s a wildly weird organization that has grown and morphed since the famous 1966 backyard party in Berkeley, California.
Also keep in mind that the King and Queen are replaced every 6 months (in my kingdom). The real keepers of the realm are the Seneschal and the council of kingdom officers. These volunteers serve 2 to 3 year terms (in my kingdom) and have various fancy titles which basically boil down to the modern equivalents of chairperson, treasurer, clerk, safety director, IT director, reporter, etc.
I’ve always held these individuals in high regard as they are basically working a part time job with no pay, many weekends taken, real legal responsibilities, having to nag others to submit required reports on time as well as entertaining the inevitable whiners. They do this in addition to their real job and family responsibilities for 2 years while trying to remember why they joined in the first place (to have fun!). :o
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Sir James, thank you. This is a fantastic post! I also agree with every point you made. Honestly I am loving the SCA as a whole I don't want anyone to think I am dissing it, but I think the way that a couple of portions of it are set up could be done better.
You're welcome. I'm not trying to knock the SCA either, I did a year of heavy combat back when I was about 20, but it (SCA heavy) wasn't really my thing. I was more into ogling the armor and it's functionality (articulation, design, assembly), rather than actually fighting. The SCA is (to my knowledge) the largest medieval-based organization in the entire world, so there's clearly a draw to it for many people. If I weren't overbooked with so many other things, I'd probably go back in for the historical / craftsman aspects of it. While I agree the way they select King/Queen is biased and unconventional, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me who is King/Queen, because I wouldn't really care; I'm just there for the armor and social aspects. :)
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I actually am heavily involved in the Baronial guard and am really starting to do a lot of crafting, i sculpt functional personalized wax seals for example. If I had the money and the time I would love to craft real plate armor and chain mail but sadly I don't have the time and money to. I am also finding joy in the crafting armor oogling side of things and I have no problem enjoying whatever monarch makes their way on the throne. I really more brought the whole thing up for conversation and to express my confusion as to how the way it was set up was a good way to have administration. If the rest of the Officers are the ones who actually run things then that makes a lot more sense.
The only thing I got my fur ruffled over is the, I am certain unintentional, suggestion that I or others like me might be a weaking or a coward. I am not cool with that. Otherwise as far as I am concerned it is all academic.
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The only thing I got my fur ruffled over is the, I am certain unintentional, suggestion that I or others like me might be a weaking or a coward. I am not cool with that. Otherwise as far as I am concerned it is all academic.
It is unintentional, that was not directed at you. I've been in the SCA 33 years, and I've fought for 15 of those. To allow non-combatants to win the throne is to allow a much higher chance that there are weaklings, cowards, etc who win. It has happened but, especially for the women who've won, it is much rarer.
BTW Eva, your Kingdom has the rarest thing of all: A Queen of your's won the Crown by her own hand, facing her hubby in Finals. It was said to be one of the most brutal, awesome, technical, furious, and overall spectacular events anyone had ever seen.
In the West we have several women who've won the Coronet, but none have won the Crown. Only Texas has that.
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I understand where you are coming from and I have hear stories and lore about the awesome Queens we have had. Although I hadn't heard about that one, it makes my heart proud.
Honestly I can see it from your perspective, mostly I was trying to give some food for thought more than anything else. :)