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Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Vincent on 2014-06-20, 17:38:51
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Alright, first actual topic started on here!
So, I'm likely going to be authorizing on July 5th (Brawl of the Crooked Dragon? Something along those lines). I've been working exclusively sword and board for practice, and one of the local knights think's I'm ready to give it a go and properly authorize to fight. Don't get me wrong, sword and shield is fine, but I really haven't seen a lot of mace and shield fighters apart from the video in the 'Defend your Crotch!' thread.
As a background, I'm already a naturally big guy (6'2'', 300lbs, though I don't look it weight-wise), and let's face it, I'm totally up for using what I've naturally got to my advantage. If I recall reading correctly, a mace counts as a 'mass weapon,' which gives a bit wider of a kill range for blows to land (for example, a hit to the hip joint is a kill, rather than costing the opponent a leg).
Resources from what I've been looking into have been rather scarce on that front, however.
What I've found floating around online:
http://www.ironbog.eastkingdom.org/ironbog2-tutorials-heavy-weapons-mace.html (http://www.ironbog.eastkingdom.org/ironbog2-tutorials-heavy-weapons-mace.html)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAKkvxOVQWg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAKkvxOVQWg)
Any insight from the SCAdians/WMA practitioners on site regarding training and fighting with a mace and shield?
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I've got a lovely bit of experience with one, and it's my favorite war weapon to use with a shield. You do have to let it find the openings & not force the issue. You tend to fight more in circles than straight lines & like axes and great weapons it counts as a Mass Weapon thus allowing hip & shoulder kills. The two best one handed mace heads easily found for SCA use are the ones sold by Icefalcon and a Kong Medium Hexagonal dog toy.
Do you have any specific questions?
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Are shield and mace tactics and foot work basically the same as sword?
I know sword has more slicing, but I'm wondering what kinds of things are done differently.
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Nathan, they are very different.
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Nathan, they are very different.
That is why I asked ;)
I suppose I'll have to make a Pinterest now.
But glad to hear they are not "kinda different"
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Like Thorsteinn said Nathan ... Sword technique and one-handed blunt instruments have different uses so goes to assume they would have different techniques as well. Swords meant to thrust and slice vary in size (one-handed; two-handed; blade length & type, etc) and will have different target areas to strike as opposed to weapons like maces that will be typically one-handed weapons that hit in different fashions. You learn as you master each new toy you play with. Body motion in conjunction with gripping/handling, striking technique, offensive/defensive posture all come into play when learning what works best and what is proper by the fighting style you study.
When you combine your weapon with shield use, it becomes something different all together. Then you learn how to coordinate both in unison and practice proper balance when striking and moving.
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Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware, most of the combat manuscripts don't mention one-handed maces much, if at all. Shields are also underrepresented.
However, part of how those manuscripts is designed, is to give you a broad set of fundamental principles to work with. Ideally, you should be able to extrapolate from them, to apply to different situations and different weapons.
I would say that most of the footwork and body mechanics would be pretty much the same, since you're still going to be using your hips to drive the power, and use the right footwork to stay balanced relative to the direction of your opponent. Where it really differs though, is that the mace may have a much shorter reach (unless you're fighting with a particularly large one), there's no "edge alignment" to worry about, and it's very front-heavy. A lot of the sword techniques may not apply directly, since they're designed around edge alignment and using the crossguard, but a lot of the general principles (particularly body motion) will still apply.
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I've got a lovely bit of experience with one, and it's my favorite war weapon to use with a shield. You do have to let it find the openings & not force the issue. You tend to fight more in circles than straight lines & like axes and great weapons it counts as a Mass Weapon thus allowing hip & shoulder kills. The two best one handed mace heads easily found for SCA use are the ones sold by Icefalcon and a Kong Medium Hexagonal dog toy.
Do you have any specific questions?
Well, let's see...
-You mention specifically for war, but would you personally in your experience use it in a specific one on one situation, or would you use it exclusively for mass combat? Or are you using 'war' as a general term for SCA events?
-I believe I've seen the IceFalcon heads you mentioned, they basically end up looking somewhat similar to a flanged mace, correct? Not sure about the Kong dog toy, is this it? (http://www.amazon.com/KONG-Stuff-A-Ball-Dog-Toy-Medium/dp/B0002DHO1I/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1403368153&sr=8-6&keywords=kong+dog+toys+medium (http://www.amazon.com/KONG-Stuff-A-Ball-Dog-Toy-Medium/dp/B0002DHO1I/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1403368153&sr=8-6&keywords=kong+dog+toys+medium))
General impression of technique is always appreciated. I'm jumping into Heavy Fighting from having done foam weapon fighting (Dagorhir/Belegarth), so I've had to adjust both in regards to targeting areas that are legal (head is off limits, everything except 'foot on ground' counts as a hit to SCA's helmet shots and not striking below the knee). Thankfully, I met one of the local knights through all that, and he's helped me along through the learning process. I feel like I could likely pull off a wider range of shots with a mace, but again, have yet to get my hands on one to try things out.
Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware, most of the combat manuscripts don't mention one-handed maces much, if at all. Shields are also underrepresented.
However, part of how those manuscripts is designed, is to give you a broad set of fundamental principles to work with. Ideally, you should be able to extrapolate from them, to apply to different situations and different weapons.
I would say that most of the footwork and body mechanics would be pretty much the same, since you're still going to be using your hips to drive the power, and use the right footwork to stay balanced relative to the direction of your opponent. Where it really differs though, is that the mace may have a much shorter reach (unless you're fighting with a particularly large one), there's no "edge alignment" to worry about, and it's very front-heavy. A lot of the sword techniques may not apply directly, since they're designed around edge alignment and using the crossguard, but a lot of the general principles (particularly body motion) will still apply.
Ah, unfortunate that there isn't a lot of information on specifically mace-work techniques. Most suggestions for maces are to shorten it from where you would typically be using an SCA sword, but I figured I would play around with that a bit and see how much I wanted to take off.
Many thanks for the insight thus far!
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You mention specifically for war, but would you personally in your experience use it in a specific one on one situation, or would you use it exclusively for mass combat? Or are you using 'war' as a general term for SCA events?
I've found that it works best for me for War's & Melee but I've used it in Tourney's too and I've not got the right mindset for it most of the time, however it is really fun. :)
We do have a Duke who's quite good with one and has won a royal Tourney with it.
As for the mace heads you are correct about both kinds linked to.
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Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware, most of the combat manuscripts don't mention one-handed maces much, if at all. Shields are also underrepresented.
However, part of how those manuscripts is designed, is to give you a broad set of fundamental principles to work with. Ideally, you should be able to extrapolate from them, to apply to different situations and different weapons.
I would say that most of the footwork and body mechanics would be pretty much the same, since you're still going to be using your hips to drive the power, and use the right footwork to stay balanced relative to the direction of your opponent. Where it really differs though, is that the mace may have a much shorter reach (unless you're fighting with a particularly large one), there's no "edge alignment" to worry about, and it's very front-heavy. A lot of the sword techniques may not apply directly, since they're designed around edge alignment and using the crossguard, but a lot of the general principles (particularly body motion) will still apply.
My book goes over some War axe techniques, but it doesn't mention Mace.
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If you want, I could easily do a video on what I know. It's a thing much easier to show then tell.
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That would be absolutely fantastic if you wouldn't mind doing a video, Thorsteinn! Just got some rattan, ordering up the Kong dog toy to give that a try.
One other question, if I may: Would you suggest doing a full gauntlet with a mace, or do you prefer demis and a basket hilt?
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I prefer demi gauntlets myself with one handed weapons; full gauntlets with two handed. Primarily when I use a shield in conjunction and like finger free motion for better grip.
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Full gauntlets. Basket hilts on maces & axes look silly, and change an essential nature of the weapon.
I should have the video up later tonight.
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Maces do not handle like a sword at all. They're quite heavy and most of the weight is concentrated in the tip. You actually use the weight to increase the force of the blow and it is devastating to say the least. I destroyed a water bottle to bits with my mace and it was with little effort. Also if your lower arm isnt big already regularly using a mace will make it much bigger as what happened to me. As a result my lower right arm is thicker than my left and it made my mace much lighter and swords feel even lighter in my hand. A basket hilt would totally change the way a mace handles and not make it work the right way it's supposed to. Edge alignment is much easier with a mace as you got 6 places you can do it with quite easily. It's actually an easy to use weapon just it requires a lot of strength training in your arm to use it without tiring easily, but once it's built up it's easy to use and brutally effective.
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Maces do not handle like a sword at all. They're quite heavy and most of the weight is concentrated in the tip. You actually use the weight to increase the force of the blow and it is devastating to say the least. I destroyed a water bottle to bits with my mace and it was with little effort. Also if your lower arm isnt big already regularly using a mace will make it much bigger as what happened to me. As a result my lower right arm is thicker than my left and it made my mace much lighter and swords feel even lighter in my hand. A basket hilt would totally change the way a mace handles and not make it work the right way it's supposed to. Edge alignment is much easier with a mace as you got 6 places you can do it with quite easily. It's actually an easy to use weapon just it requires a lot of strength training in your arm to use it without tiring easily, but once it's built up it's easy to use and brutally effective.
Yes, After handling Sir Aidens Mace I can feel how effective it really is. I wonder if it would handle similar to war axe techniques. I wonder this because of the Surface area both have. Although One can grapple anothers shield with a war axe, and has one area in which you want to strike with, while a mace can hit with any side. Since it is a bludgeon weapon.
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So here is my vid.
On Mass Weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xtPsRo5Gl8#ws)
On Maces & why they are not swords. Using a Dane axe to show the same motion & theory in a two handed weapon.
I'm using an old shield thats almost dead but is small enough to show what I'm talking about.
Me Fiancee makes an appearance on the 2nd floor coming home from work about 1/2 way through.
And here is my Shield. Almost ready for prime time.
New curved Center Grip Oval. left pic is me holding it where it needs to be held with the grip where it is. The right is where T.s. Morgan & a few other Knights recommend it be held (meaning I need to drill new hols & remount the handle).
I'm thinking remounting is where it's at. it is a test shield after all.
Pic of the back is available.
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Very cool! Thank you, Thorsteinn!
Wow, quite a bit shorter than the sword used in this example. Looks to be roughly a foot from the head of the mace to the tip of the sword. Not that I mind getting up close, just very interesting to see the direct comparison like this.
Really can't wait to get that mace head in and start practicing with it! Doing a mock-auth tomorrow night, then (hopefully) authorizing on Saturday at a local event (Brawl at the Crooked Dragon if anyone else is going). Just going to stick with sword and board for the meantime, but this video is really helpful!
Will continue to pester with questions as they come up. Thanks again for your patience and your help!
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No prob. I've planned on doing a series of vids on WMA for the web series but I've slacked. So I just decided "Ah, F**k it" and added the vid to my youtube channel under SCA &HEMA.
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I don't always fight mace as a matter of fact not much at all. My best fighting with it though was Mace and shield...although Mace Florentine is pretty fun...and can crush your opponent if you get in there right....
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Thats a good video on how to use a mace. I use mine pretty much the same way even though mines steel and yours is an SCA mace. I should start making videos like that too but have yet to get a cam so been lazy on it.
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Alright! Authorized as an SCA heavy fighter, and my kong dog toy has arrived in the mail.
Thorsteinn, in regards to construction of the mace, should I shave more off the rattan wood to get it to fit the toy? Hollow the toy out? Both? Slightly clueless on this, but I would think cutting into the toy too much would affect the amount of 'give' it has, which would cause it to fail. What do you suggest?
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Shave the rattan a little smaller than the hole on the toy, t.hen using baby powder or some powder that would make the rattan kind of slippery, work the toy on. Takes some work but thats how I got mine to be stable and a good fit. Makes sense?
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Alright! Authorized as an SCA heavy fighter, and my kong dog toy has arrived in the mail.
Thorsteinn, in regards to construction of the mace, should I shave more off the rattan wood to get it to fit the toy? Hollow the toy out? Both? Slightly clueless on this, but I would think cutting into the toy too much would affect the amount of 'give' it has, which would cause it to fail. What do you suggest?
Congratulations on getting authorized. I wanted to do Mace fighting but was told to become more proficient at Sword and Board as a mainly wielding a mace in the tournament field would only stunt my upward movement (Squire -> Knight) down the line...
I am still trying to decide if being a Knight or even Squiring is in the books for me or if I just want to fight and have fun and not worry about politics...so I haven't tried a Mace yet...just thought you should know that some knights want to see us fight in sword and board in tournaments.
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Alright! Authorized as an SCA heavy fighter, and my kong dog toy has arrived in the mail.
Thorsteinn, in regards to construction of the mace, should I shave more off the rattan wood to get it to fit the toy? Hollow the toy out? Both? Slightly clueless on this, but I would think cutting into the toy too much would affect the amount of 'give' it has, which would cause it to fail. What do you suggest?
Congratulations on getting authorized. I wanted to do Mace fighting but was told to become more proficient at Sword and Board as a mainly wielding a mace in the tournament field would only stunt my upward movement (Squire -> Knight) down the line...
I am still trying to decide if being a Knight or even Squiring is in the books for me or if I just want to fight and have fun and not worry about politics...so I haven't tried a Mace yet...just thought you should know that some knights want to see us fight in sword and board in tournaments.
True, Jorge....but it really depends on the knight....sword and board mastering gives you great defensive and offensive tactics. It also makes the transition to two handed fighting easier.
My knight is a great weapon master and I was lucky enough that he let me train and fight great weapon as well. Another good thing is that I had been fighting for almost two years before he squired me so I had mastered sword and board. I find my two favorite styles of fighting are sword and madu as well as 7'6" glaive. You may also find 6' spear fun as well cause I do..
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Oh noes...madu...STOP POKING MY SHIELDS
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Oh noes...madu...STOP POKING MY SHIELDS
Lol....yep...until you drop it then blam!!! :)
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I wanted to do Mace fighting but was told to become more proficient at Sword and Board as a mainly wielding a mace in the tournament field would only stunt my upward movement (Squire -> Knight) down the line...
If you could politely beat someone over the head if they tell you this I would be grateful. ;)
Seriously. If you love mace, you will get good at mace, you will win at mace, you will be knighted because of mace. Using a mace shows that you have broad talent.
We have a man who got to his belt partly on the strength of his glaive. We have a Duke who is renowned for his mace work, and has been since before he got his belt 30 years ago. Any knight who is only good at sword & board (or any "jut one" form) is not a knight. A knight is a threat with chopsticks if need be.
If sword & board is the only way then how come Sir Kief has his belt?
Q: What do you call a mid-level Western Fighter in any other Kingdom?
A: "Your Magesty". <Rimshot>