ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Corvus on 2013-05-15, 00:08:07
-
Someone on FB the other day was mentioning Knighthood and was saying that there are Knightly orders buried in the customs of Freemasonry. Naturally I thought of the Knights Templar Order which I have heard is a part of one of the mystery schools of certain Masonic groups.
Any Freemasons on here who might be able to clarify that?
-
into monty python skit... masonry opens doors lol
-
It's all conspiracy theory, coincidence, and guesswork. And a lot of it. If you haven't seen "Holy Grail in America", a history channel 2 hour show, watch it, it's a pretty good intro into this. Also "Guardians of the Secret Identity of Christ" book is good so far, though I'm only about halfway through it.
-
I suppose it is possible; but there are proponents and opponents of the idea. The sticking point- the Templars were branded as heretics and the Order disbanded in 1312 so there weren't any Templars after that. To say that they somehow joined these later organizations has been argued as spurious at best; I think it safer to say that these later orders took cues from the Templars. The oldest known extant Freemason document dates to 1390- you could conclude that although the Templars had been dissolved, they hadn't been forgotten and someone, somewhere disagreed with the outcome.
-
Personally, having known one or two Freemasons in my time, I would say that they get a lot of bad press with regard to all the conspiracy theories floating around these days. No doubt the bestselling author Dan Brown has certainly not lessened this with his novels of late either.
The terms that every Mason I have ever met use to describe what they do are 'honor', 'service' and 'fraternity', and basically I have also been told it is like a big family of brothers. Some have remained mute on the Knighthood aspect though, other than to say that there are a few higher degrees in some schools of masonry that have the Templar aspect to them.
Food for thought anyway
-
ya i know some. are really good guys. the thing that always gets me is the mix n match of religion and myths. you get a watered down version of both and a weird combination.
-
When I first saw this topic, the only reason I gave it a chance was because it was on this forum and started by Corvus, truly. Pretty much everywhere else it becomes something of a name-calling "your mother" fight in about two posts.
Beyond that, I've done some extensive research into the Knights Templar myself, working off of other's work though. Beyond that knowledge, growing up, going to a Catholic Military School for 3rd-8th grade, and Catholic High School, I've met plenty of Benedictines, Dominicans, Franciscans, St. Patricks, Jesuits and even some Cistercians. Now, mind you, none of these men and women are militant, but I do know a few who are Chaplains as well, primarily within police departments, but three particularly, who are military chaplains. None of these people, would have kept up a "rebel Templar" group. The Church calling out and disbanding the Templars as heretics under the guise of a greedy and in-dept to the Templars, French King, would have deeply upset them, but they wouldn't have rebelled. The other 99% of the Templars who weren't martyred by their own Pope would have done just as it had said was "done." They would have been absolved either into the Cistercians themselves, or the Knights Hospitaller.
It's also interesting to note the contemporary documents of the era, and how people viewed the Knights Templar. For example, priests, particularly friars were constantly admonished and ridiculed, but the Knights Templar never were! One can say this is all a conspiracy and the "Templars are that good." But lets face it, that makes a good story of "Oh no! The world is ending and how do we solve it in either 140 minutes or 400 pages or less!?!" As Corvus has previously stated, I believe the mass conspiracies are fun and highly publicized.
I have also met plenty of Freemasons, and they never come outright and say "I am a Knights Templar, full embodied with the power of God, direct descendant of Hugh de Payens blah blah blah." They're great guys who believe in charity, honor, respect, and have a strong sense of belonging. They have told me, every single one of them, as we compare knighthoods together, theirs honors and emulates the Knights Templar. How many people respect and therefore dress up as Cops, Firefighters, Knights, Musketeers, etc, trying to emulate them, if even for one day in October?
Beyond that though, there are those that "I'd love to have that tab on my uniform" and do it for the wrong reasons. It's always one or two people that ruin an experience for everyone else, those they mis-represent, and those who unfortunately have to deal with them! It's hillarious, but I've noticed TONS of people now claiming to be SEALs... and it's a sad truth. I feel the worst case scenario of Freemasons to Templars is just a case of this.
Heck, some of us aren't that far off. But we do draw the line. I am trying to portray a Knights Templar or Knight of Calatrava in a living history sense to educate and inspire others. I know Sir Nathan here does the same with his Teutonic kit, heck part of why I decided to take the plunge and create my persona as a brother knight was because of Sir Nathan's! Then there's those, like I met at an SCA event, "my husband is a REAL knight of the 4th order!... blah blah blah." And where was the husband? Nowhere to be found, he "wasn't able to attend this event for blah blah blah reasons."
What's also interesting is this: Has anyone stopped to wonder why it's [/i]always[/i] about the Knights Templar? I think it's because, let's face it, from 1100-1300 you had two dominant groups of monastic knights: the Knights Templar, and the Knights Hospitaller. Now, for all those authors out there, which one can't sue you for slander? Which one is still in existence, has the real connections both in Protestant and Catholic Faith, and can grill you till their heart's content? I think that's the reason why it's always them, not the Knights Hospitaller. The Templars have no legal way of defending themselves.
All of this, highly possible and I think a very good theory as to what is really going on. Beyond that, the other, even more outlandish theories could also be just as true. That's what keeps it going, and as far as I'm concerned, if it convinces a kid to pick up a book, rather than a joint, or especially a spray can with nefarious thoughts, WIN. It's our curiosity that makes us human, and right now, I just see so little of it sometimes.
But, at least now documents are coming out about the trials. fact
The Catholic Church agrees what happened was an atrocity fact
Templars good name restored? I hope so, and that's why I portray one to help further it along.
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/550x/04/f9/cb/04f9cbe1b973142098498cd2de0b2d0a.jpg) - for Sir Wolf ;D
-
Something that's really interesting about the Templars is that a few years ago, some documentation was found in the Vatican library that shows that the ruling against them was overturned about 20 years after the fact. I think it's pretty clear that even back then, people realized how political and atrocious it was, and within a couple of decades the decision was reversed. Of course, the damage was done.
I agree that a lot of the current popularity of attaching conspiracy theories, and a broad mythos around the Templars comes from the fact that they were disbanded 700 years ago, and there's no one around who can make a solid claim to their identity. There is also some rich history around their disappearance that people can draw on for their stories, including some missing treasure, and the possibility that some fled up into Scotland.
From the Freemason perspective, I've always assumed that they styled some things after the Templars, but there's no strong evidence of an actual connection over 700 years.
-
I've always liked the reply I read somewhere on the AA about the Knights Templar at the Battle of Bannockburn. Someone jokingly said "of course they would have said the Templars were there! Just to save face! How can the English get beat by a bunch of starving, poor knights with sharp pointy sticks?" ;D
The treasure stuff, maybe it's just the archaeologist in me, I've always been interested in. I blame Indy for that though, more than the Templars themselves. It would have been cool to be a fly on the wall when they got to the Al-Aqsa Mosque and made it their headquarters.
-
your mother Trebek!
-
Ya beat me to it Sir Wolf! ;D I loved it when Sean Connery was actually on SNL and they did that skit, I was in stitches! My favorite skit though, has to be the Blues Brothers, I can't help it.
Back to the subject at hand,
Corvus, out of the "documentaries" I have watched, this one probably does the best at "Templar Knights in a Nutshell" ;D
Knights Templar - Warriors of God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LrOi_jB4xI#ws)
I'll see what else I can find too
beyond that, I'm ashamed at what counts as a documentary these days... out of everything I've watched, that was the only one to state everything, not just the given facts, but in an unbiased and objective sort of way. Everything else just goes crazy, and the responses by people in the comments are all just full of hate.
-
lol if they were so rich, why they wear such crappy costumes and armour? lol
-
;D lol especially if they were anything like in that documentary. Man oh man, I was cringing every time they went to those live action sequences!
beyond that, please remember, a Templar Knight = sworn to poverty, the Templar Order = not so much ;D - in the best Craig Ferguson voice
-
I will have a look at that, Brother Patricius.
Oh yeah, and I love the Blues Brothers too. Blues music in general - a fantastic genre of music.
Indeed, I just heard that there was some Templar group or other, naturally claiming that they are the real knights Templar - who are apparently using the international courts to try to re-acquire certain lands in Jerusalem, claimed by the Knights back in the day.
-
I had also heard that there's a group attempting to sue the church for wrong-doings and wishing their money back ::)
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84964 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84964) I find the comments about it over on the ArmourArchive particularly refreshing! ;D
I'm sorry... just a Holy Order that served the Church, that took vows of poverty... how can any person vie for their "lost money and land" :o
-
That had me thinking similar thoughts
-
Let alone another fact I just remembered...
they swore vows of chastity... how can there be any heirs?!?!? From what I've read it was practically forbidden for any Templar to have contact with women, at least within the rules. I have heard there were apparently Templar nuns as well in Europe, but I haven't found any secondary or primary sources yet to back that up either. If I was to solemnly portray a Knight of the Temple, I would be having zero contact with my lady, or her daughter for that time!
typical of today though, it'd be rewarding the knights 700 years ago that didn't follow the rule!
-
I can see two ways for them to have "heirs", beyond the "breaking the rule" option. :)
1. Had children before joining.
2. Had children after it was disbanded.
Neither would have been in huge numbers, I don't think.
-
Let alone another fact I just remembered...
they swore vows of chastity... how can there be any heirs?!?!? From what I've read it was practically forbidden for any Templar to have contact with women, at least within the rules. I have heard there were apparently Templar nuns as well in Europe, but I haven't found any secondary or primary sources yet to back that up either. If I was to solemnly portray a Knight of the Temple, I would be having zero contact with my lady, or her daughter for that time!
typical of today though, it'd be rewarding the knights 700 years ago that didn't follow the rule!
Weren't the Templar sergeants just lay brothers of the Order? Portray one of them! Gets you around that pesky vow of chastity! :)
-
Sergeants, from what I recall are members of the group that are not noble, that's it. I don't think it includes temporary assignment. I know Master at Arms is a higher rank of sorts, so that's out too.
From what I read of the rule and other sources, it appears they all took the same vows and followed the primitive rule, in theory, to the letter. I'd say, there's a guarantee that there was a couple who didn't (after all how many people wash out, for whatever reason, of a 4 year commitment in the military today counting basic?) but those that washed for dishonorable reasons I feel didn't fare too well. Even those that were temporary members, they took the vows, whatever children they had prior to it, family, wife, etc would be stripped away for the time period they served. I'm going to go through my sources, I have a TON of primary and secondary texts actually, and I'll try to quote what I just said.
I know on Mr. Metz's flikr, he has a picture of him in a Templar kit, and the caption states that since he's married he would in theory be a _____ Templar on temporary duty.
Being a secular member of the order could work, but that'd be splitting hairs for the most part. We've already agreed I'd do the persona when necessary: IE when I see people prancing about with long hair and wenches on their arms while wearing the white habit and red cross, or when people ask me, or especially when people seem interested in knowing the archaeological and histiographical data. This kit is more a labor of love than anything, I'll still have a secular kit as well, making a sleeveless surcoat with ailiettes is the least of my worries :) that and that kit can have a fancy helmet, sword, etc etc etc, more excuses for prettier things! Hence why I've never joined a real order :o ;D
Sir Edward,
good point about having children prior to joining, didn't think of that one. But as you said, it'd be rare beyond rare. I hope it doesn't matter in whichever court hears this FUBAR boondoggle out, the Templar Order had acquisitions, not the individual knights. When the order was absolved, all those assets would have been dispersed at the Church's discretion, and the brothers would have been absorbed into other orders, I'm sure, happily.
-
Bro. Patricius - I watched that Templars movie you recommended. It was very good. Thanks for the reference.
-
Something that's really interesting about the Templars is that a few years ago, some documentation was found in the Vatican library that shows that the ruling against them was overturned about 20 years after the fact. I think it's pretty clear that even back then, people realized how political and atrocious it was, and within a couple of decades the decision was reversed. Of course, the damage was done.
Chinon Parchment, found by Barbara Frale. She's an author.
-
That's crazy eh? That they overturned it after all that had been done? Wow - even then politics was shady
-
That's crazy eh? That they overturned it after all that had been done? Wow - even then politics was shady
You can easily ask the Roman Empire or the Greeks if politics were ever not shady ;) far as I'm concerned, you get three or more people together you have politics, intrigue, and conspiracy ;D
Corvus, glad you liked the video. I thought they did a good job of keeping on the subject at hand, and keeping an objective viewpoint. I just wish others would as well.
-
That's crazy eh? That they overturned it after all that had been done? Wow - even then politics was shady
Yep, and another interesting part is that Frale was doing research on something else completely, and found it misfiled somewhere in the Vatican library. So it sat, misfiled, for 700 years. I'm sure there were a few who knew of the Templars judgement being altered, and were probably considered looney when they were alive. Also adds to the conspiracy theory aspect, of course.
-
"Misfiled" eh? Even that gets a guy wondering, though I imagine that some of the stuff stored away in the Vatican archives could be an archivists nightmare....yet full of treasures as well.
-
The Vatican Archives is something I would thoroughly enjoy dedicating my life to. For anyone wanting a tour of history: http://www.vatican.va/library_archives/ (http://www.vatican.va/library_archives/) they even have some of it online.
Also, "secret" in terms of the Vatican, not sure if you all know this or not, isn't the same as "classified, or secret" etc within our day and age. It just means it's been stored away. It's so sad, that most of our beliefs in the Templars comes from a file being lost... reminds me of the Ark at the end of "Raiders" :o ::) ;D the joke in my family is "and never to be found again."
-
Blame Phillip 'le Bel' (aka Phillip the Fair of France). He owed the Templars a mega-buttload of money. By doing what he did, he not only erased the debt, but claimed alot of rich , productive land that was left to the Templars.
-
The Vatican Archives is something I would thoroughly enjoy dedicating my life to. For anyone wanting a tour of history: http://www.vatican.va/library_archives/ (http://www.vatican.va/library_archives/) they even have some of it online.
Also, "secret" in terms of the Vatican, not sure if you all know this or not, isn't the same as "classified, or secret" etc within our day and age. It just means it's been stored away. It's so sad, that most of our beliefs in the Templars comes from a file being lost... reminds me of the Ark at the end of "Raiders" :o ::) ;D the joke in my family is "and never to be found again."
Bolding mine - It's a key document to the main theory, though. The Templars were officially disbanded by the Pope. No questions there. But to still call yourself a Templar after the fact would make you an enemy of the church/religion, to be associated with "heretical homosexual devil worshippers" (as per the charges/convictions). By having the Templar ruling overturned, it did not reinstate the Templars in the church, however, it did mean that they wouldn't be persecuted, and forced to stay underground. The "offshoot" Templars, like the ones in Scotland (excommunicated by the Pope anyway) seems more plausible and reasonable, at least to me.
-
That definitely sheds some light on that as well Sir James.
-
That's crazy eh? That they overturned it after all that had been done? Wow - even then politics was shady
You can easily ask the Roman Empire or the Greeks if politics were ever not shady ;) far as I'm concerned, you get three or more people together you have politics, intrigue, and conspiracy ;D
Corvus, glad you liked the video. I thought they did a good job of keeping on the subject at hand, and keeping an objective viewpoint. I just wish others would as well.
Yes, it was very interesting. I have seen a few documentaries on the Templars but indeed, that was the best I have seen thus far. It really had me wondering what it would have been like for those men, all those centuries ago - to dedicate themselves so deeply only to ultimately be betrayed by what basically amounts to a politician. Sad. Now so many modern groups are claiming to be the real Templars it kind of takes away from the essence of what they probably really were.
-
Indeed in the course of my research I have received an invitation by the Worshipful Master of Vancouver's largest Freemason Lodge - to come down and have a visit with him. This will give me a chance to perhaps get some of my questions about them answered ;)
-
That's awesome Corvus!
I know plenty of dedicated men and women who have been betrayed by politics. Growing up in a Catholic household in Catholic schools, I can attest to the level of devotion the Templars had, I saw it every day in the Cistercians, Dominicans, and Jesuits.
-
That's awesome Corvus!
I know plenty of dedicated men and women who have been betrayed by politics. Growing up in a Catholic household in Catholic schools, I can attest to the level of devotion the Templars had, I saw it every day in the Cistercians, Dominicans, and Jesuits.
Brother Patricius;
Perhaps as a Catholic you might enlighten me as to the reasoning of the Vatican - with regard to disallowing Catholics from becoming Freemasons?
Curious...
-
I thought a Discovery Channel special would be a little less biased than this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rwAT9aOEME (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rwAT9aOEME)
-
Having recently now been to several events hosted by Freemasons and having had a goodly number of conversations with Master Masons I have been very impressed with the high degree of gentlemanliness and over all chivalric-style courtesy I have seen. Thus far a goodly order of gentlemen I think.