Main > The Round Table
Discussion: Honor
Lord Dane:
Honor is a deeply personal trait that has profound impact of those who take an Oath to serve, whether it be for justice, a military, a country, or even a leader. It defines in part the character of the person who takes it upon themselves to live up to the meaning of its virtue and value (which can significantly vary in both personal & professional viewpoints). What is important about honor is that it is lived up to regardless of the circumstances that even at times includes making sacrifices that are above and beyond our own self-serving interests.
Those of us that serve others by an Oath know what it means to have honor & as such, it is a distinct part of that person's character. To honor the words and meaning of the office you hold, in itself defines you hold honor in your words and in itself, makes you a person of honor. One does not need to be a hero to have honor, but by simply living up to its ideal, you have obtained the meaning of the virtue. I salute those who serve with honor, and will sacrifice the same to serve them as my brethren in spite of those who would offend them.
Honor is sacrifice above all and selflessness in service; not selfishness in one's actions.
Grand Master Garland:
Is my decison 30 years ago not to become a "federal mercenary" a cause for you all to personalize the term? Don't confuse my experiences with your own. The majority of men I knew in the service weren't there for honor or country but did do their duty under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. At that time most of my classmates at West Point were there for a free, first class education which they paid off with 5 years in service. In the SFGA just about everyone I knew was there to get paid for parachuting out of airplanes. Sorry, but that's just my experience. I've served 8 years in the Army. Moreover, I was a private mercenary for another 8 years so in regards to Sir Patrick's comment, since I was one, the term mercenary has no negative connotation to me. Maybe you guys have other, more esoteric experiences in the military but those are mine. And then there is the matter that for senior military officers personal honor can and is sometimes trumped by political orders from both the US Congress and the US President. This is a well honed tradition of the U S military command structure and frankly it isn't working well considering the current administration in power in WDC. Consider Operation Keelhaul, even the Benghazi station crisis. A friend just came back from Afghanistan: Google "Afghanistan" and "pedophilia". Is there honor in supporting a regime that sanctions institutionalized pedophilia? Not in my world. 8)
B. Patricius:
Grand Master,
with all due respect, I think what we all took in some manner or form personally, was just the way you posted
--- Quote from: Grand Master Garland on 2013-06-29, 18:34:34 ---It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path. God's will be done. 8)
--- End quote ---
I know plenty of devout men and women who have taken the Long Grey Line and are serving honorably for their God first, country second. I also know plenty who believe that the term "God, Country, Corps" is a synonym and that in their lives, they cannot have one without the other two. That it took the Corps to understand their God, and respect their country. That came from a man who literally was told "serve or jail." And in his service decided after active duty to continue to serve as a mentor at our military academy, serving the youngest to help them learn from his mistakes rather than follow that life accidentally or on purpose.
A lot of members within this forum, are active duty military. A lot of members within this forum are veterans. A few of us, are even disabled veterans. I know others, just by what they have posted must be some form of either state, county, local, or federal Law Enforcement.
To top that off,
--- Quote from: Grand Master Garland on 2013-06-30, 00:28:41 ---And then there is the matter that for senior military officers personal honor can and is sometimes trumped by political orders from both the US Congress and the US President. This is a well honed tradition of the U S military command structure and frankly it isn't working well considering the current administration in power in WDC. Consider Operation Keelhaul, even the Benghazi station crisis. A friend just came back from Afghanistan: Google "Afghanistan" and "pedophilia". Is there honor in supporting a regime that sanctions institutionalized pedophilia? Not in my world. 8)
--- End quote ---
to put it plainly, quite a few of us know our oaths, and we know the UCMJ. "unlawful orders" is something in there for a reason, and it can be because it strongly doesn't fit with one's personal honor code. I've personally seen a Chief Warrant Officer yell "shove it up your @$$" discretely to an officer and I thought I was going to get it too because I was the helmsman and knew knew the officer was wrong and so obeyed the Warrant rather than the Lieutenant (O3 for the groundpounding types). But the warrant was a CWO4, 35+ years, 25+ years at sea, and was our "boats." To put it plainly it was his job to see to the safety of our ship. And I had my faith in him, as much as our Operations Officer, the LT who was wrong.
We all had a discreet coffee afterwards, on the bridge with no one else there. The op wasn't dangerous, and was fairly routine, but if we had followed Ops' orders, people would have gotten hurt. He knew it too immediately after Boats called him out on it, and actually shook my hand and said "good job" for obeying Boats.
I've seen it in other circles as well.
Basically, I think what everyone is trying to question is what you're getting at? It was through my Catholic faith that called me to a higher purpose to serve, and protect my country and defend those that couldn't defend themselves. No offense is meant by this, but to put it plainly from a cynical, often grumpy, NCO, how do you place a few bad seeds as the whole crop?!? We could easily do it back talking about the pedophiles of the Catholic Church. We could easily argue back about atrocities commited by the Holy Orders, the Hospitallers included mind you, from 1000 years ago.
I can't help but remember how you said it would be a hard time talking about Chivalry without talking about Catholicism and its place within it. As a Catholic, I understand where you're coming from. As an Anthropologist, I can't agree with it. Honor codes don't have to coincide with Religion, with a capital R because all too often those people we are meant to respect as the protectors of our faith are committing some of the worst atrocities that can be made. And yes, above all else, I feel taking advantage of anyone of a minor age, is the worst. And you can argue that I started this, and that's fine. But to be honest, you started it by placing our US Military, all of us, 100%, as "bad apples" by bringing up wrongs in Afghanistan.
War is ugly, and if the world were perfect there would be no need for it. But as St. Bernard de Clairvaux once said, in this world, we need sheepdogs to protect the sheep.
Grand Master Garland:
Br. Patricius, thanks for your reply. I’m happy to explain my statements which appear to be projecting some negative connotation on our military. You are missing the point and mixing the military forces with the politics. Our military is the action arm of political decisions made in WDC and those political decisions are the source of concern for patriots serving in the military. I have always regretted not being able to continue my own career in the US military but have never regretted the difficult decision I made as a 20 year old West Point Cadet . Many of us lost friends and relatives in that war which should have been brought to a happy resolution. So I set out on a personal quest to find the reasons why so many in our country, including the politicians in WDC, were against both our warriors and against the defeat of the Communist genocide in Vietnam. I completed my quest by finding both the reasons and the proofs, eventually being elected Master of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem which struggles against these forces.
B. Patricius:
In response to your reply, Grand Master Garland. In all orders of the Faith, regardless be they secular or lay, isn't it "one must be penitent before God?" Because I know in my Order it is.
YIS
B. Patricius
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version