"He that respects himself is safe from others; he wears a coat of mail that none can pierce."
                -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Author Topic: Hugh Knight on test-cutting  (Read 13699 times)

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« on: 2008-03-07, 15:55:49 »

Hugh Knight started a blog not too long ago, and he had some interesting points on test-cutting (in his opinion it's pretty worthless). I thought I'd share the link:

http://talhoffer.blogspot.com/2008/02/myth-of-test-cutting.html

I think he's neglecting the fact that it's just plain fun. :)

Thoughts?
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Das Bill

  • Global Moderator
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ******
  • Posts: 624
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #1 on: 2008-03-07, 17:23:15 »
Well, Hugh's pretty opinionated... I agree with a lot of his opinions, and disagree with others. This particular post is no different. Many of Hugh's observations here are spot on. On the other hand, when he says that test cutting encourages bad habits, he is making an assumption. You of course know how much test cutting we actually use at VAF's program, which is to say, not much at all. But when we do actually test cut, we stress the importance of proper form, non-telegraphing, and correct follow through. This is the difference between *test* cutting and just cutting. The former is a test of one's own abilities to use proper form functionally, while the latter anyone can do.

I actually have an article for myArmoury that, unfortunately, I wrote well over a year ago and still isn't published. This is partially because Nathan's busy, but its also because there are two companion articles that two other people were supposed to finish, and they still haven't come through. Nonetheless, the basic gist was about how test cutting is about using martially correct technique to accomplish the goal. Even moreso, it is only one aspect of training, and used alone is fairly useless. Used in conjunction with multiple training methods (i.e. solo forms, partner drills, pressure drills, response drills, physical conditioning, etc.) it can become an important aspect, particularly since most modern people are very divorced from the knowledge of what it is actually like to cut something with a sword.

Further, Hugh brings up the idea that all cuts should end in langen ort. The thing is, that's not really supported by the texts. Why would alber be one of the four primary guards if you never cut to it? Why does nebenhut exist? And whether people like Meyer or not, Meyer explicitly has many attacks that start high and end low. (The counter argument to that last point is always that Meyer's longsword art was for sport and therefore not real, which to me is a load of dung, considering his dussack, halberd, dagger, and rapier sections were most certainly used for earnest fighting even if the longsword was declining by the Renaissance.) And if we look beyond Liechtenauer, EVERY two handed sword style that I've ever seen has both cuts that end point forward and cuts that end point down. Chinese, Korean and Japanese sword styles have these. The Italian masters, from the medieval Fiore to the Renaissance Bolognese masters, flat out say there are half cuts and there are full cuts. So that argument, in my opinion, is bunk.

So basically, I agree with Hugh's post in that I think people overdo it with the importance of test cutting, and I agree that many people misuse it. But I also completely disagree that it is a useless excercise. Guy Windsor put it well in his article on test cutting in Western Martial Arts Illustrated: "...cutting practice is vital for historical swordsmanship practitioners and can yield important feedback about the swords in question, or a given cutting style. There is a world of difference, though, between unscientific 'Let's have a go at cutting stuff' practice, and properly thought-out cutting research and training. And above all, cutters should remember that targets don't avoid, parry or hit back."
"A despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of skill." -Master Sigmund Ringeck

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #2 on: 2008-03-07, 18:46:42 »

Yeah, that's generally what I was thinking, but I wanted to see what you thought. I don't want to take articles like that at face value since when it's presented in such a black and white manner, it eliminates any room for discussion of where value CAN be found in such an activity. It's a generalization that, unfortunately, may lead people who are new to this whole sword thing to think that it's a path they shouldn't even bother to investigate. It's important to understand how it differs from actual combat, but that's true of anything we do, whether sparring, drilling, or cutting.

He certainly writes well, and has a convincing and authoritative style. I just haven't had much exposure to his opinions yet.

Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #3 on: 2008-03-31, 18:07:56 »

Apparently the Albion Meyer is useless too:

http://talhoffer.blogspot.com/2008/03/practice-longswords.html

:)

Personally, I love mine. I love the A&A Fechterspiel too, but the Meyer is equally serviceable, and has a really nice feel. I don't care that they took some liberties in the design.

Now, if he were complaining that the Liechtenauer had edges too thin for his tastes, I wouldn't argue with that.

Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Das Bill

  • Global Moderator
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ******
  • Posts: 624
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #4 on: 2008-03-31, 18:29:07 »
*shrug* As a person who helped with quite a bit of feedback on the A&A fechterspiel, and owner of the original prototype, as well as pusher of A&A's products in general, I agree with Hugh's comments about it. But I also own an Albion Meyer, and I like it every bit as much. I agree with him that the Albion design isn't historically accurate... but the A&A one isn't entirely, either. While the A&A one is very much inspired by the originals in museums, they took liberties based on modern practitioner's feedback, including the fact that the blade is not peened, but has a nut holding it in place.

So again, while I don't totally disagree with Hugh, he tends to take an overly strong opinion that, for me, makes it hard to accept his stance.
"A despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of skill." -Master Sigmund Ringeck

Michael Edelson

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #5 on: 2008-07-02, 20:38:00 »
Hi all,

Sorry to resurrect a dead topic, but I just wanted to add my .02 cents.

I think too many people focus on the entry cut...the vorschlaag, when doing test cutting.   The vorschalg has many elements that it must incorporate...minimum telegraphing, providing cover, etc.  All of these things take power away from the cut.   I think practicing this cut in test cutting is important, but I also believe that we should be practicing the cuts from within measure just as much, if not more.  For various reasons having to do with measure and strategy, the voschlaag is unlikely to strike your opponent, and if it does strike, it is not gauranteed to end the fight without follow up cuts.  These follow up cuts should be developed at least as much as the vorschlaag.

Test  cutting is tremendously useful, especially if you don't get hung up on the vorschlag.  You need to learn and understand the feedback that happens when your sword actually strikes something, and that's not something you can learn from a pell.  Swordsmanship without test cutting is like boxing without a heavy bag.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #6 on: 2008-07-02, 20:47:42 »
Hi all,

Sorry to resurrect a dead topic, but I just wanted to add my .02 cents.

Don't worry about that at all. Topics are never dead, merely abandoned. :)

And welcome to the forum!
« Last Edit: 2008-07-02, 20:48:31 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Das Bill

  • Global Moderator
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ******
  • Posts: 624
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #7 on: 2008-07-03, 02:24:15 »
Hey Mike,
Good to see you around here! And agreed on all points there. Follow up cuts, as well as second/third intention attacks should always be practiced.

Speaking of cutting, another aspect that is sometimes not brought up is the immense amount of respect it gives you of the weapon. I recall the very first time I'd cut with a sword on green bamboo... it was frightening just how easy it was. It was kind of a sobering moment as I thought about just what these weapons did historically.

In our recent test cutting a few weeks ago, we had a similar moment with David's messer. There was a foam pool noodle that David put up on the target stand... David did a light schnitt, and easily cut right through it. Now, cutting foam is not a big deal, but the way he bisected it with such a small movement was downright scary. None of my longswords are that sharp!
"A despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of skill." -Master Sigmund Ringeck

mortuary3

  • New Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #8 on: 2008-07-03, 12:24:16 »
All is interesting & informative.....again.

After "Swordapalooza 200" and comments by Das Bill....I began to re-evalute my approach to cutting in that fact of concentrating more on correct form & follow up guard - into another cut - and so on....

Yes regular "go slay a jug" is fun and gives one a sense of what these weapons can do, as Bill mention, but to practice cutting form is a valuable aspect.  I didn't warm up before cutting @ Swordapalooza and my right elbow has been outta wack ever since then (another reeason to stress warm-ups



!).  Longword training group has been a bugger and I haven't attempted any cutting,  just to let things heal properly.

I love doing pell work....don't know how others feel about it and how it fits into the overall training senerio.  Respect for the weapons is another interesting point.  In the demos/ presentations our group does, this is one of the first things I always point out right after safety.  That is to respect these weapons and treat them as if they were a loaded gun.

Sorry if I got a wee bit long winded......


Cheers

the other Bill G.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #9 on: 2008-07-06, 22:00:08 »
Hey Mike,
Good to see you around here!

Me too, I'm glad to see you here. Hopefully we'll convince even more of our friends from the north to stop by. :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Todd Sullivan

  • New Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #10 on: 2009-06-21, 20:50:43 »
I'm looking forward to Roger Siggs class in test cutting at WMAW in Sept.  Ed, if you make it next month I have about 20 plastic water juggs if  want to test cut at my July event.  I dislike pool noodles.  :)

Cheers


Lake Ontario Fechtschule

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #11 on: 2009-06-22, 00:48:38 »

That sounds good. The pool noodles definitely take some getting used to (and the SwordFodder targets for similar reason). You know, I could load up my SwordFodder stuff and bring it, I have about half the starter-set's targets left.

I definitely need more practice. I'm much more used to hitting people with various trainers. :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: Hugh Knight on test-cutting
« Reply #12 on: 2010-09-16, 18:34:39 »
You need to learn and understand the feedback that happens when your sword actually strikes something, and that's not something you can learn from a pell.  Swordsmanship without test cutting is like boxing without a heavy bag.

Even if I didn't figure this to be true from personal experience, it makes a good deal of sense to me.  Might turn it into a sig of some sort; well done Mr. Edelson.

Mr. Hugh Knight has an incredibly high opinion of his study; I find people like that hard to talk to if you don't agree w/them implicitly.
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€