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Author Topic: PARF 2015  (Read 3690 times)

Lord Dane

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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #15 on: 2015-10-29, 21:50:17 »
Isn't their some dispute as to what ailettes were used for?

Heraldric decoration makes more sense as they offered little in ways of protection both from material and coverage.
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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #16 on: 2015-10-29, 21:55:47 »

Yeah, it's not 100% clear how much they were used as heraldic decoration, versus additional protection. Since we don't have any surviving examples, and only see them depicted in artwork, it's hard to tell. It's probably a combination of both, but in what proportion is anyone's guess.
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Ian

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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #17 on: 2015-10-29, 22:09:09 »
Blair in European Armor states this on ailettes (and no it doesn't give a translation of that 14th century French bit at the end unfortunately):

"It used to be thought that their purpose was to protect the head and neck against cuts from the side, but this view can no longer be accepted.  The many references to ailettes found in early 14th-century texts show quite clearly that they were invariably made of flimsy material quite unsuited for any defensive purpose.  It is now generally held that their chief role was heraldic, but they seem on occasions, to have been purely ornamental.  This view i supported, to quote one example only, but the following entry in the inventory of effects of Piers Gaveston, dated 1313:  Item, autres diver garnementz des armes le dit Pierres, ovek les alettes garniz et frettez de perles."
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Sir Edward

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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #18 on: 2015-10-29, 23:17:18 »

Huh, cool. Does he say what the flimsy materials are, or give any documentation of their construction? And what sources are indicating this? I'm just curious, since it'll help me in making my own (plus it's helpful to back it up in future conversations).
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Ian

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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #19 on: 2015-10-29, 23:43:53 »
Blair doesn't spend much more time on them, but there is an account from a late 13th century tournament at Windsor that describes them as being made from parchment.  In the medieval context this would be a fine leather more than paper-like in consistency, and this is specific to a tournament so it's unclear if it is appropriate to *all* ailettes.  There are no known extant ailettes.  It's one of those mystery things.  Most people seem to like the idea of making them from a thin piece of hardened leather or maybe parchment stretched over thin wood.  Some people are really attached to the idea of them being defensive.  Some evidence points to them being made of non-defensive materials.  Most of the people who say they are defensive point to the fact that they are depicted artistically in battle, but so are things like heraldic crests and surcoats, so it would appear knights were willing to wear flashy heraldic symbols that weren't directly for defense.  It is a mystery ;)

*edit, corrected typo Late 12th should have been Late 13th*
« Last Edit: 2015-10-30, 15:50:40 by Ian »
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Thorsteinn

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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #20 on: 2015-10-30, 02:10:05 »
Maybe they wee defensive in the cover v. concealment sense?
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Naythan

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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #21 on: 2015-10-30, 12:26:10 »
Blair doesn't spend much more time on them, but there is an account from a late 12th century tournament at Windsor that describes them as being made from parchment.  In the medieval context this would be a fine leather more than paper-like in consistency, and this is specific to a tournament so it's unclear if it is appropriate to *all* ailettes.  There are no known extant ailettes.  It's one of those mystery things.  Most people seem to like the idea of making them from a thin piece of hardened leather or maybe parchment stretched over thin wood.  Some people are really attached to the idea of them being defensive.  Some evidence points to them being made of non-defensive materials.  Most of the people who say they are defensive point to the fact that they are depicted artistically in battle, but so are things like heraldic crests and surcoats, so it would appear knights were willing to wear flashy heraldic symbols that weren't directly for defense.  It is a mystery ;)
It's interesting that they are mentioned in the late 12th century. Since they are generally depicted in late 13th century and earl 14th century art. Did you mean to type late 13th? if not that would be interesting(now I'm going a bit more off topic) because There is a quote by Gerald of wales where he mentions in rarity that some knights would wear Iron greaves. Another Item that is usually  mid to late 13th century and still rare and it is being mentioned in the late 12th.
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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #22 on: 2015-10-30, 14:11:50 »

Yeah, I knew there weren't any extant, surviving examples. I'd only heard about leather, or leather wrapped wood being the strongest theories, but parchment. Wow.  ;) It makes sense if it's only meant to add a splash of detail.
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Ian

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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #23 on: 2015-10-30, 15:50:04 »
It's interesting that they are mentioned in the late 12th century. Since they are generally depicted in late 13th century and earl 14th century art. Did you mean to type late 13th? if not that would be interesting(now I'm going a bit more off topic) because There is a quote by Gerald of wales where he mentions in rarity that some knights would wear Iron greaves. Another Item that is usually  mid to late 13th century and still rare and it is being mentioned in the late 12th.

That was a typo, should have said late 13th century tournament.
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Naythan

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Re: PARF 2015
« Reply #24 on: 2015-11-05, 16:40:52 »
It's interesting that they are mentioned in the late 12th century. Since they are generally depicted in late 13th century and earl 14th century art. Did you mean to type late 13th? if not that would be interesting(now I'm going a bit more off topic) because There is a quote by Gerald of wales where he mentions in rarity that some knights would wear Iron greaves. Another Item that is usually  mid to late 13th century and still rare and it is being mentioned in the late 12th.

That was a typo, should have said late 13th century tournament.
There go my dreams of being to re-enact a late 13th century knight for late 12th century ;)
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