Main > The Armoury
maille tailoring?
Sir James A:
--- Quote from: scott2978 on 2014-09-19, 19:55:54 ---It kinda sucks that there's really no place that makes historically accurate, properly tailored maille. All that stuff from India is not even close to what real maille looks like. I'd settle for something that's even mostly historical.
--- End quote ---
That's a deep, dark, dangerous road, especially if we start talking about historically correct metals. The rivets on historical mail look almost flush. My suggestion is don't ever handle historical mail, or you'll hate every bit of yours. :)
Sir Ulrich:
--- Quote from: Sir James A on 2014-09-19, 22:46:31 ---
--- Quote from: scott2978 on 2014-09-19, 19:55:54 ---It kinda sucks that there's really no place that makes historically accurate, properly tailored maille. All that stuff from India is not even close to what real maille looks like. I'd settle for something that's even mostly historical.
--- End quote ---
That's a deep, dark, dangerous road, especially if we start talking about historically correct metals. The rivets on historical mail look almost flush. My suggestion is don't ever handle historical mail, or you'll hate every bit of yours. :)
--- End quote ---
I can vouch for that. I was fortunate enough to get an Erik D Schmid early 14th century coif and I now want the real deal now. I actually sold off all my pin riveted maille to replace it with wedge riveted maille cause the wedge stuff is closer to historical. Still not satisfied to be honest but this is probably the best I am gonna get for now so It will have to do. The place known as allbeststuff does offer tailored maille at cheaper prices too, it's pin riveted but they are round rings with alternating flat punched rings. That type of maille was used in Europe well through the whole time maille was used. You have to email them for the order though but they will do it. Nate Max got his done by them and it fits him well.
Henrik Granlid:
Would people say that, perhaps, welded mail is a closer analogue of historical mail than indian pin-riveted?
Ian:
--- Quote from: Henrik Granlid on 2014-09-20, 09:41:20 ---Would people say that, perhaps, welded mail is a closer analogue of historical mail than indian pin-riveted?
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I would say the closest you could get with the widely available Indian stuff is their wedge riveted maille. Some of them actually seem to be drifting the rivet hole now instead of just punching out a hole. It also depends on your time period, and location... But there's a lot of problems with the modern mass produced stuff that it can never achieve a close historical approximation without completely starting over. The design needs to be changed at the most fundamental level to reflect historical flattened rings. The rivets need to be set differently. And the cuts of the shirts are completely wrong, they need to be tailored in a totally different way. There are many enthusiasts in Europe and the US who make proper maille, but it's incredibly expensive because of the labor required.
Sir James A:
^ Everything that Sir Ian said!
The way they seem to make their garments is in "squares" - this is most evident from the tube arms. They probably have entry level / basic people doing simple 4 in 1 squares, and then the more experienced workers will take those pre-made squares and assemble them into faulds (by putting a series of squares with some contracting joins every now and then, if you're lucky), or shirts (tube body & tube arms is just building squares, arm pits are the only non-square area and they're primarily just diamond gussets..).
Then, as said, it's the rings. Historical mail, the few that I've handled, isn't round, and isn't flat. It's a "flattened round". Picture taking a round ring, and lightly whacking it to put a flat spot on the top and bottom, but still having rounded sides. Edit for clarity: I'm talking about the solids / washers, as compared to the "whack flat" modern ones"
clickable 16th century example (courtesy of Allen Antiques):
Great example of the "flattened round" profile
Pin riveted isn't non-historical, it's just that the final result isn't nearly as flush and doesn't quite look right. Granted there is surely some historical mail that was "sloppy" like this, but if portraying knights and people of financial means, it probably wouldn't be correct. Then there's the whole aspect of modern metals vs historical metals. Proper type of iron, etc. And whether the wire has been drawn properly.
clickable 16th century example (courtesy of Allen Antiques):
Note the way the rivets look, and compare it with modern mail
And a truly well-tailored mail garment isn't built from squares. You'll have contractions and tapers (reductions and expansions) where you have 3-in-1 and 5-in-1 to do so. I've seen a few with a "pocket" over the shoulder blades, where it is baggier so that it can move better. And the sleeves aren't at top dead center of the shirt; they're more forward, where your arms naturally hang and move.
In short, exactly as Sir Ian said - it would all have to completely start over.
Now, what we have now, especially with some shops now offering tailored maille, and some offering voiders, partial sleeves, and faulds - we are WORLDS ahead of what it was 15 or 20 years ago when I bought my first tube-sleeved, butted ring haubergeon. And not only that, I paid more for that than you can get a riveted or riveted/solids one for now, which is pretty impressive given the escalating price of most things over the last 15 years. Common plate armor has come a long, long way in that short time too. :)
The standard riveted mail, but tailored, is the most reasonable thing unless you're willing to spend a few thousand dollars on a haubergeon.
If you're willing to spend a little bit on a set of pliers and some loose rings and rivets (maybe $50 worth), you can tailor the mail yourself. It's time consuming, but not specifically "hard". It doesn't require any specialty tools beyond a set of mail pliers, which are just regular pliers with a set of divots for setting the rivets (I'm a poet!). And since it's mail, if you "screw up" it's all fixable; it's just a bunch of rings assembled in a pattern.
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