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Author Topic: 13th and 14th c. Kits  (Read 42921 times)

Aiden of Oreland

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13th and 14th c. Kits
« on: 2014-02-18, 05:04:43 »
I am looking to make multiple kits from different centuries. Currently, I am focusing on 13th and 14th. One of the problems about this is that it is really expensive to do both. So I am going to cheat a little and buy curtain parts of armor seen through multiple centuries that I can use for multiple kits. So again, currently I am looking to complete a 13th c. and 14th c. kits.

For as far as maille goes, I realize the style of the maille shirt, mittens, and head wear were different. But as for chausses, I know they were used in both centuries. A problem is I don't know what kind of style maille to get. Say full round ring riveted, flat ring riveted, or either flat or round ring riveted that is intergrated. On that note, I have been looking at chausses. I know allbeststuff has legging that are my size. I believe that on one of the posts it was said to be pretty good quality for Indian made maille. I could buy just chausses from there, but they do have an intergrated, as you could say, super hauberk. It has a attached coif w/ a ventail, attached mittens, and a pair of chausses. It is made from 9mm, 18 gauge rings. The mittens seem to have maille on both sides of the hand(why idk) so I would just knock off a side and add a good leather palm with a split in it to be able to slide my hands out. Of coarse this thing will be a pain in the butt to get into so I will have to split open the back of the hauberk and add leather and strings. I would also cut open the back of the chausses and do the same. This is also great because it will make my maille snug methinks. I am aware of capapie and other maille places but I don't exactly have loads of money. I am not quite sure if this will work out but i am crossing my fingers. If you want you can go to allbeststuff and examine their goods. http://allbeststuff.com/Riveted-Chain-Mail-Suit-Hauberk-Mittens-Coif-Ventail-Legging-Black-Finish

For my 13th century kit I am only going to buy one type of plate armor and that is the helm. I'm very interested in a Dargen Great helm. Royal Oak armory has a realllyyy nice one. Its $700 but man its beautiful.

I am not sure what too wear under my chausses. Do I get normal wool or linen chausses or padded ones. For foot wear I am a little stumped. Sir Ian if I am correct this is your field. I don't know what kind of shoes or boots one would wear under their chausses or 14th c. sabatons.

Okey, here comes the 14th century armor. I'm think of a kit after 1350. For the torso I had in mind a gambeson, maille haubergeon (that comes a little past the elbows), a coat of plates over that, and jupon over that. I am slightly confused about a jupon. Is it padded or is it just a short surcoat? What ever it is I plan to make one with straps or strings on the sides to make it just right. I am almost curtain that this was done. For the arms I may get, i guess, wisby gauntlets and splinted forearms. For my head, i was thinking about getting either a bascinet or secret helm w/ aventail under a Pembridge Greathelm. For the legs, i was thinking shin guards and soupcan knees that are flanged? Possibly sabatons too.

For all of the clothing or cloth products I plan to make myself. I want to really get into making my own things. Like leather making, sowing, etc. any links on how to make things like gambesons and such would be awesome. I have taken some notes from other threads and posts. Sadly i am completely befuddled on how to make braises... I have instructions but it isn't like the ones for my LEGO sets.

I think that about covers everything. Any ideas or suggestion are most appreciated. I want to spend wisely and have accurate kits. I have a good idea on different sites that I can buy a lot of this stuff on. Sorry if this is a bit of a mouthful.

Here are some pictures that I have looked at that seem to have some elements that I want.

As seen in figure 1, he has a coat of plates over his maille,( just like in figure 3 and what i believe in figure 2) also he has plate or splinted arms with, i guess you could say, splinted gauntlets, again like in figure 2 and 3. Figure 2 and 3 have those shin guards and soup can knees I was talking about. As seen in the top left of figure 2, he has a secret helm w/ aventail also with the maille coming up over the nose. I show figure 4 to demonstrate the helm and mittens. These are illustration pictures so they may be a bit off. Hold on, im having a bit of trouble with the pictures.
« Last Edit: 2014-02-18, 05:34:53 by Sir Aiden »
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Aiden of Oreland

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #1 on: 2014-02-18, 05:10:10 »
Here they are

EDIT: oh never mind, stupid phone wont let me properly edit it. Ignore the photos
« Last Edit: 2014-02-18, 05:13:06 by Sir Aiden »
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Sir James A

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #2 on: 2014-02-18, 16:39:41 »
I am looking to make multiple kits from different centuries.

Mwahahahaha!!!!!

I'll answer some of the questions in a bit when I have more time. :)
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Aiden of Oreland

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #3 on: 2014-02-19, 03:54:07 »
Ya is this a historically accurate kit? Should I make this purchase? If so will I be able to use maille legs from the 13th century with my 14th c. kit?
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Sir James A

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #4 on: 2014-02-19, 04:57:50 »
Ya is this a historically accurate kit? Should I make this purchase? If so will I be able to use maille legs from the 13th century with my 14th c. kit?

Check the first post, it's all the same pic.. I'm not sure what you mean with figure 2 and 3 yet
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Aiden of Oreland

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #5 on: 2014-02-19, 05:03:39 »
That is figure one. This is figure 3
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Aiden of Oreland

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #6 on: 2014-02-19, 05:07:15 »
This is figure 2 (sorry I am using a phone and I can't properly edit things brcause all of the images are too large)
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Aiden of Oreland

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #7 on: 2014-02-19, 05:10:28 »
This is figure 4. Again, sorry that this is all sloppy.
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Sir James A

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #8 on: 2014-02-19, 17:59:05 »
LOTS of info here. You might be better off splitting into two threads; one for 13th century kit, one for 14th century.

I am looking to make multiple kits from different centuries. Currently, I am focusing on 13th and 14th. One of the problems about this is that it is really expensive to do both. So I am going to cheat a little and buy curtain parts of armor seen through multiple centuries that I can use for multiple kits. So again, currently I am looking to complete a 13th c. and 14th c. kits.

The nice thing about earlier periods of armor is that you can start with an earlier kit, do the "full maille" thing, and pushing forwards in time means adding different bits of plate, while still retaining most (or all) of that maille base. I suggest starting with 13th, and then moving to 14th.

Of coarse this thing will be a pain in the butt to get into so I will have to split open the back of the hauberk and add leather and strings. I would also cut open the back of the chausses and do the same.

Don't do that. Chausses will pull on like, umm, stockings. They don't need to be split, and shouldn't be, unless they're the half-style designed to be open in the back. If you want to split the hauberk, you might want to do so in the front. You might have to tweak the split slightly for that ventail style. It will pull on just like a jacket. I am doing my hauberk the same way, but it'll be months or more before I get it finished since multiple demos are coming up and I have to shift focus.

It is also historical to have mail split and laced in the front, at least in some time periods. I have a good thread about that: http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.0

For my 13th century kit I am only going to buy one type of plate armor and that is the helm. I'm very interested in a Dargen Great helm. Royal Oak armory has a realllyyy nice one. Its $700 but man its beautiful.

Many things with armor, you get what you pay for. It is worth $700. Whether or not it is worth that price *for you*, specifically, is another question. That all depends what you'll use it for, how often, how authentic do you want your kit to be ... what else could you buy for $700 that may be more important (armor or not), should you save the $700 towards college / retirement / house, etc. It's a question only you can answer.

I am not sure what too wear under my chausses. Do I get normal wool or linen chausses or padded ones.

Wool is historical, linen is more comfortable for some. Padding isn't necessary unless you are fighting. I've seen crusader era with padded chausses *over* the mail.

I am slightly confused about a jupon. Is it padded or is it just a short surcoat?

I believe unpadded, but just a shortened surcoat. Surcoats shortened as time progresses.

What ever it is I plan to make one with straps or strings on the sides to make it just right.

Use laces and button holes. It will make it snug and is less obtrusive than buckles. I can't recall off the top of my head but there might be a few effigies which show the criss-cross on the side of mid-era surcoats.

As seen in figure 1, he has a coat of plates over his maille,( just like in figure 3 and what i believe in figure 2) also he has plate or splinted arms with, i guess you could say, splinted gauntlets, again like in figure 2 and 3.

These all look like coat of plates.

Figure 2 and 3 have those shin guards and soup can knees I was talking about.

Shin guards = schynbalds (when it is only the front of the leg)

Ya is this a historically accurate kit? Should I make this purchase? If so will I be able to use maille legs from the 13th century with my 14th c. kit?

Maille chausses, as far as I know, isn't "13th century or 14th century" except for a few details - wedge vs pin riveted, alternating solids or all riveted. The "style" (shaping) of the mail for chausses (legs) doesn't seem to change - at least not like plate does.

As seen in the top left of figure 2, he has a secret helm w/ aventail also with the maille coming up over the nose. I show figure 4 to demonstrate the helm and mittens. These are illustration pictures so they may be a bit off. Hold on, im having a bit of trouble with the pictures.

I believe they are all from the Osprey series books. I am sure at 3 of the 4 are. Graham Turner is the artist, and he specializes in medieval art for ~30 years. His illustrations are generally good. If you're going for good historical basis, they're fine. If you're going for living history quality, you always want to go to original sources... effigies, brasses, period artwork done in the time you are looking at.

It's somewhat like asking "do I want a 14th century look?" or "do I want to replicate an exact armor of the 14th century?". If it's the former, it sounds like you've got a good idea in mind. If it's the latter, you need to change what you base your kit off of.
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Aiden of Oreland

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #9 on: 2014-02-19, 20:55:10 »
Wow Thanks! I think I will start with the 13h c. because it seems like a cheaper and simpler starter. I may get that helm eventually but methinks I will buy a less expensive one. Im saving the more "authentic" and high quality stuff for later in life. Back to the maille purchase, do you think that the maille from the allbeststuff link is a good choice? Could I get away with intergrated for the 14th century? I know maille was passed down through the family. I am more intereted in the leg protection that covers the front and back. What are those?

EDIT: ok ya I'll make a seperate post. After reading that sticky you made I am going to by undies first, then paddding. Oh and I will most definitly make seperate post for the 14th c. stuff.
« Last Edit: 2014-02-19, 21:28:26 by Sir Aiden »
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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #10 on: 2014-02-19, 21:34:36 »
Could I get away with intergrated for the 14th century?

If you weren't concerned with 100% accuracy and wanted to cheat a little bit, you could always get a hauberk, coif, and mufflers as separate pieces, then cleverly layer them to look integrated when you wanted integrated, but still be able to have them as separate pieces if you needed them thusly. You might be able to get a little more mileage out of a single set at the price of sacrificing a little bit of accuracy. Of course, that's entirely up to you and how historical you want to be. Just throwing it out there. :)

Quote
I am more intereted in the leg protection that covers the front and back. What are those?

You mean in plate? Those would be greaves. Schynbalds just protected the the front and started appearing about mid-to-late-13th century. Some of them seemed to be nothing more than simple gutters, though the better ones probably would have had at least a little shaping to them.

Greaves, on the other hand, fully encased the leg and require very precise shaping in order to properly fit. They came in a little bit later than schynbalds.
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Aiden of Oreland

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #11 on: 2014-02-20, 00:08:44 »
How about for the ring style? I know both times used riveted, but how about the round/full rings intergarted with the riveted. If it helps I am a German knight.
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Mike W.

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #12 on: 2014-02-20, 01:05:28 »
Sir Aiden,
In my experience with Civil War reenacting and reenacting in general, it's generally better to start out with what ever is most representative and cheaper, then after you get some experience, work on building up your kit, or expanding to other kits. For example: I started out as Federal Infantry. The gear for Federal Infantry is readily available and inexpensive. I bought the machine stitched coat and the foreign made cartridge box. But now that I've been doing it  for four years am I starting to replace foreign made leathers with stuff from particular craftsmen and am starting a Surgeon kit and a Cavalry kit. The trick is getting just enough to get involved, then amassing knowledge and experience from your comrades. Right now, I'm working on a 11th century Norman kit as it allows me to break into the hobby with little expense. Then as I talk with people, interact on the forum more, participate in events, etc. amassing knowledge, only then will I start to acquire new kits or upgrade my kit. Nothing educates you about a time period like reenacting.

My recommendation (based on reenacting other wars, so take that into account) is to start out with the cheaper kit and gradually work your way up, focusing mostly on learning. That way when you do get to pursue a 14th ce kit, you'll know exactly what you need and where to get it and can avoid costly mistakes (and you may even develop the right connections to purchase used items at cheaper prices). Hope that helps.
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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #13 on: 2014-02-20, 01:17:03 »
Ok you're looking for the same Era as me essentially, I could help you out a bit with this. I'd suggest full leg chausses as the latest reference for tie in the back ones is about 1250 and the Dargen great helm wasn't used till at least 1280. I own the same great helm you want and it's the nicest helm I own pretty much:

I got it customized to have an aged appearance to look around 30 years old, and I use silk ribbons instead of leather ties to hold the liner in. The Dargen helm can be used all the way from 1280 till at least 1330. If you're doing a German knight you are in luck because they held onto the older designs longer than England and France did, plus the Dargen helm is German. This helmet is well worth the money but if getting other things is your first priority I would suggest getting the riveted maille first. The allthebeststuff maille is worth the price and is decent enough quality, you can even get a full set for less than what I payed for my hauberk ALONE. Had I known about this stuff I would of gotten this instead so take your chance to get all this cheaply. I'd suggest getting the round ring riveted with alternating flat punched rings as that can be used anywhere from the dark ages up to the late medieval. My maille is only period from about 1230 onward as it's wedge riveted. Round riveted just avoid the flat riveted round riveted as that stuff is pretty "cheese grater" like to gambesons due to the rivet heads being on both sides, the round stuff is more forgiving on the gambesons and the half solid link stuff even more so as theres less rivets. Just make sure you get the one with tapering sleeves as the bingo winged ones are unsightly and require tailoring like I did to mine. If you have any questions I sent you a friend request on Facebook and I can pretty much walk you through making a late 13th early 14th century kit quite easily.
Heres how my kit looks by the way http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/10596356694/#in/set-72157637221932746/lightbox/
« Last Edit: 2014-02-20, 01:18:27 by Sir Ulrich »

Aiden of Oreland

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Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #14 on: 2014-02-20, 02:35:23 »
Sir Aiden,
In my experience with Civil War reenacting and reenacting in general, it's generally better to start out with what ever is most representative and cheaper, then after you get some experience, work on building up your kit, or expanding to other kits. For example: I started out as Federal Infantry. The gear for Federal Infantry is readily available and inexpensive. I bought the machine stitched coat and the foreign made cartridge box. But now that I've been doing it  for four years am I starting to replace foreign made leathers with stuff from particular craftsmen and am starting a Surgeon kit and a Cavalry kit. The trick is getting just enough to get involved, then amassing knowledge and experience from your comrades. Right now, I'm working on a 11th century Norman kit as it allows me to break into the hobby with little expense. Then as I talk with people, interact on the forum more, participate in events, etc. amassing knowledge, only then will I start to acquire new kits or upgrade my kit. Nothing educates you about a time period like reenacting.

My recommendation (based on reenacting other wars, so take that into account) is to start out with the cheaper kit and gradually work your way up, focusing mostly on learning. That way when you do get to pursue a 14th ce kit, you'll know exactly what you need and where to get it and can avoid costly mistakes (and you may even develop the right connections to purchase used items at cheaper prices). Hope that helps.

I entirely agree. I am thinking that I will save the 14th c. for when I begin to partake in SCA and other things of the sort. Luckily I have both the time and patience. So I will start putting aside money for the future!

Sir Ulrich,
Then i may just make the purchase after all. Nice kit btw. I will definitely contact you.

So another question still remains... What shall I wear on my feet? What type of shoes or boots should I wear?
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