Main > The Armoury
My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
Ian:
--- Quote from: Gareyth on 2014-05-15, 16:45:10 ---To me seems quite plausible they would have used paint (when where available of course) for decorative reasons as well as to help ID people - given how crazy things got on the field in a fight, every bit would help - as well as for additional protection from rust.
--- End quote ---
Maybe so, but plausibility is not justification or documentation in most LH groups. That's why I said your mileage may vary from group to group. Some will certainly accept the Mac Bible as a reason to paint crusader helms. Others may not. But no LH group, no matter how strict can argue with extant painted late 15th c sallets. That's why if at all possible you want something documented. Not necessarily a surviving example, but artwork supported by an inventory describing the same object may be good enough... it really is all subjective. But I promise you that 'plausible' is rarely accepted in most serious LH groups. That's also why Chuck and I kinda poked a bit of fun at the 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' because that phrase is used generally by people trying to justify something that has no proof of being appropriate.
Sir Martyn:
--- Quote from: Ian on 2014-05-15, 17:05:43 ---
--- Quote from: Gareyth on 2014-05-15, 16:45:10 ---To me seems quite plausible they would have used paint (when where available of course) for decorative reasons as well as to help ID people - given how crazy things got on the field in a fight, every bit would help - as well as for additional protection from rust.
--- End quote ---
Maybe so, but plausibility is not justification or documentation in most LH groups. That's why I said your mileage may vary from group to group. Some will certainly accept the Mac Bible as a reason to paint crusader helms. Others may not. But no LH group, no matter how strict can argue with extant painted late 15th c sallets. That's why if at all possible you want something documented. Not necessarily a surviving example, but artwork supported by an inventory describing the same object may be good enough... it really is all subjective. But I promise you that 'plausible' is rarely accepted in most serious LH groups. That's also why Chuck and I kinda poked a bit of fun at the 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' because that phrase is used generally by people trying to justify something that has no proof of being appropriate.
--- End quote ---
Understood. I can see where plausability could become a slippery slope. I'm doing some reasearch on iconography of knights/armor from north Moravia (around Olmouc) in mid 14th century. Meanwhile I've heard back from my Serb friends who are proposing something like this for the armor, but with small amounts of chain in the arm pits and the splinted segments would be closer to the black examples in the other pic. It would have a with small, early cervelliere/bascinet which could be fitted with a flat visor of its own or have a great helm over it.
Opinions?
Ian:
Until the 15th century, the overwhelming evidence for maille underneath the torso protection is a full haubergeon (think a hauberk that's about mid-thigh, 3/4 sleeves or so). There are some inventories that refer to 'sleeves' of maille, but no one really knows what these are exactly.
The thing to be careful of with splint is sometimes the armorer cheats and only puts in 50% of the splints because it still gives the right visual on the outside. Any splinted armor should have 100% steel coverage of overlapping splints with no gaps on the inside otherwise it will not function as armor properly. Unless of course you're willing to take the risk of someone stabbing through the leather where it's gapped on the opposite side :)
Other details you can't see in those photos are things like the fans on the elbows and knees. Certain sizes and shapes are appropriate for different time periods, so you have to be careful with the little details. Even things like rivet heads matter. In the 14th century rivet heads tended to be countersunk and sat flush to the armor's surface to prevent blades from catching. Later on in the 15th century rivet heads sat proud and became more decorative... you can go crazy trying to get all the details right. But the key is research, research, research...
That cuirass is ok, with the exception of the faulds. They made the fatal mistake of copying a reproduction and not an original piece. No fauld exists or is depicted anywhere with vertically oriented lames hanging down over the hips. All extant and depicted faulds are horizontally overlapping lames. This is because you need to be able to sit down, especially on a horse. The fauld in your linked photo cannot collapse when you sit.
They copied the fauld from the Bashford Dean harness in the Met on this cuirass. Bashford Dean was the curator of the Met Arms and Armor collection and took liberties with that piece because there was no fauld with it and he designed it himself. It's a notorious piece of armor, and you can immediately tell when someone copied it because it's the only piece like it. Note how on the linked effigy the fauld is horizontally oriented and thus collapses on itself when you sit down unlike the one you linked.
Here's the photo of the piece from the Met:
A real fauld on a 14th and early 15th century cuirass should look like this:
Sir Martyn:
Yargh! Good points, all. Ian.
I have shared your feeback with my friends in Novi Sad. I'm trying to focus 1340-1365, or thereabouts, I think. Getting exact native iconography from that period is proving a challenge - not least because much was destroyed 50 years later in the Hussite wars.
Clear on the arms, but seems like from some images the maille sleeve could also be on the outside of the arms (see pics).
Maybe anbother option is jsut to go all steel arms and legs and secure by points? I was hoping for going a bit lighter with my transitional harness, though...
Sir James A:
Italians wore their mail sleeves over top of the plate, and theoretically two different sets of mail at once (or a haubergeon & early fauld / voiders)
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version