"He who conquers others is strong; he who conquers himself is mighty."
                -- Lau Tzu

Author Topic: Sources for Historical Martial Arts  (Read 5967 times)

Sir Griff

  • New Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Sources for Historical Martial Arts
« on: 2009-01-04, 15:28:08 »
As you guys might know, I'm part of a reenactment group over here in Romania. The group currently has sections reenacting the two World Wars and a section which reenacts our War of Independence with the Ottomans in 1877 (long muskets with those spike-like bayonets and cool uniforms) yet I joined because we plan to expand and include a medieval section for any medieval enthusiasts (like myself).

This medieval section shall focus on the Fifteenth Century and we shall reenact the Voivode's Guard, namely Vlad the Impaler's guard. The guard followed in the ruler's retinue wherever he went, and was a seasoned part of Wallachian hosts whenever we went to war. The men in its ranks were mainly the sons of boyars, eager for adventure and increasing favour with the Voivode, and free men who had proven their worth in battle and who had upgraded their social standing, as it were. Many of these free men often became boyars themselves, since being a noble in Wallachia and Moldavia was not something hereditary like in the West. So our range of equipment is rather large when it comes to things like weapons and armour.

Since it is the Fifteenth Century we're talking about, we shall also have access to our favourite of armours: plate. Now, we plan on being able to join events abroad and at home and most medieval reenactment events abroad involve fighting and lots of it. For this, we have to be both physically fit and to have good protection. Now, the fit part can be solved easily enough, but the good protection part is something of an issue since there are no armourers I or any of my colleagues know of in Romania. And when I say none I mean none.

Now, we shall either make our own or find some abroad and I'm not very confident about the protective quality of something we make ourselves. Well, mail maybe but still. We will also need a source to train after, since we won't be able to just run around the yard with our weapons in hand just to get used to them. We need something like a fechtbuch.

I've looked at ARMA and I've seen the links to one of Talhoffer's codexes, namely the one from 1459 which is wonderfully translated in both German and English and I've also seen the useful link to Jeu de la Hache. The thing is, the 1459 codex is Talhoffer's second one and as such is not meant for beginners since I believe he does not mention the basics of combat or the names of some of the stances and such.

If any of you can provide me with the first Talhoffer codex with an English translation, I and my colleagues would greatly appreciate it. And if not, you could at least tell me what you use as a source for your training sessions.

Also, do you happen to know some armourers in Eastern Europe (Czech Republic, Ukraine, Poland, Hungary etc.) whit reasonable prices and some reliability?

Dragonlover

  • Guest
Re: Sources for Historical Martial Arts
« Reply #1 on: 2009-01-04, 16:47:11 »
 Sir Griff,

I can't help with the codex issue, but as far as armor, '"Armstreet"  based in the Ukraine
recently put together a sturdy 15th cent gothic rig for me. Suitable for combat with a
little tweaking and adjustment..... :D

Das Bill

  • Global Moderator
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ******
  • Posts: 624
Re: Sources for Historical Martial Arts
« Reply #2 on: 2009-01-04, 20:59:35 »
Hi Griff,
It doesn't matter which of Talhoffer's works you have: None of them are meant to be teaching manuscripts, or at least not in the way we modern people think of them. They are more like portfolios to show what the master was capable of teaching. It honestly is a huge mistake to try to learn anything from them without one of the more complete, text-based manuals (such as Sigmund Ringeck's treatise, or the von Danzig manuscript). You can find the latter here:

http://www.schielhau.org/von.danzig.html

Though the translation isn't very good, and has a number of mistakes which can be misleading.

I've mentioned Christian Tobler's translations/interpretations in the past, though I know you said you had trouble getting them in Romania. Aside from those, I don't know of too many manuscripts that are translated in English that you can get for free, though there are a ton in their original languages online. There are the incomplete translations for Fiore on the Schola Gladiatoria site:

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/fiore/

The master Fiore is Italian, and not quite of the same tradition as Talhoffer, but it fits your time period.
"A despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of skill." -Master Sigmund Ringeck

Sir Griff

  • New Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Sources for Historical Martial Arts
« Reply #3 on: 2009-01-07, 17:28:39 »
That first link seems quite useful, I thank you a lot Bill. Though it's late in coming, happy birthday as well. I didn't know we had so many figures of note of MyArmoury fame on this fame. I assume Sword Chick is Pamela Muir? At least I think you called her Pamela a few times. Anyway, regarding the first link, I assume the one done by Lichtenauer on the longsword is the most useful for basic stuff, correct? That one also seems to have the most pictures.

The one about fighting in armour is also interesting, I must admit, though it is rather lacking in images. Anyway, thank you once again for your efforts.

Oh, and one answer which might help me immensely is, what did you guys use as a source to start training in this art and what do you use as a source now, save any experience already acquired? I believe you once told me that if I didn't find a group which practised WMA in my country I should start my own. In effect, this is what we are trying to do now. Start our own group in our own area. With patience and great ambition, I think we shall realize this goal.
« Last Edit: 2009-01-07, 20:11:24 by Sir Griff »

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: Sources for Historical Martial Arts
« Reply #4 on: 2010-09-16, 18:57:02 »
Hollywood Movies man!  LOL

I'm kidding...maybe when I was a kid...
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€