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Author Topic: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?  (Read 22429 times)

Sir Douglas

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Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« on: 2013-08-23, 02:06:15 »
I'm not sure which category this would fall under, so I'm just going to stick it here to be safe. If it needs moved, go ahead and move it. :)

When I first started playing Medieval II: Total War — specifically the Teutonic Campaign — I noticed some of the Teutonic Ritterbrüder had these big wings slapped to the sides of their helms. There's also a similar helm in M&B Warband. (See attached pics if my description is vague and confusing)

Sure, it looks pretty cool, but does anyone know if such a practice actually existed? I know knights would stick all kinds of things on their helms during tournaments, and there are some examples of similar attachments on German funerary helms, but in actual combat, it just doesn't seem practical to have big, giant horn/wingie-things on your helmet. It seems a great place for your opponent's weapon to get tangled.

Thus the question is: Were these things real, or just as made-up as the horns on Viking helmets? I haven't been able to dig up any historical evidence for them yet.
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Naythan

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #1 on: 2013-08-23, 04:01:18 »
I have a german teutonic knight figurine with the wings. I think they did have them, Because ive been seeing it alot. but the same could be said for vikings and horns. they don't sell the viking helmets with horns on any site I go on, neither are any teutonic helms with wings. Ill look into it.
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Naythan

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #2 on: 2013-08-23, 04:06:36 »
As far as I can find out, there is hardly any subject of the matter. There isn't much evidence of it and what there is of it was probably not used for battle.
This was probably just used for decoration by certain knights im sure, and most likely it was removable or knights had a separate helmet for battle.
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Sir Edward

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #3 on: 2013-08-23, 13:17:20 »
I went ahead and moved this over to The Armoury section, since it's a question pertaining to real life helmets.

These actually did exist. There were a wide range of helmet crests used, and one fantastic example of this in artwork is Codex Manesse. I've attached a couple of images for reference:

http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/manesse/contents_body.htm
http://pinterest.com/khaentlahn/1304-1340-codex-manesse-images-only-zurich-switzer/
« Last Edit: 2013-08-23, 13:19:04 by Sir Edward »
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Sir James A

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #4 on: 2013-08-23, 13:32:53 »
Sir Nathan of the Order of the Marshal has a helmet with similar crest, and a good bit of knowledge on the subject historically... he will probably reply in the next few days.
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Sir Douglas

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #5 on: 2013-08-23, 14:45:45 »
Cool links, Sir Edward. Thanks! How did I ever miss that one of Tannhauser? Especially since it's right there on the Teutonic Knights' Wikipedia page...staring me right in the face...shouting "Hey stupid, over here!" ;D

So it looks like that particular style of wings was a heraldic crest unique to an individual knight, and not a helmet decoration that's part of the standard Teutonic kit as it would seem in M2TW. Obviously it's just a game and not a historical simulation (that's why I like to check into these things before I accept them as true).

Also, a couple of the Manesse images suggest that some of these crests may have been worn in actual combat and not just for tournaments and the like. I'm not terribly knowledgeable on crests; I'll have to read into it some more. Perhaps Sir Nathan will have some more information, too.
Per pale azure and argent, an eagle displayed per pale argent and sable, armed and langued or.

So a Norman, a Saxon, and a Viking walk into England....

Sir William

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #6 on: 2013-08-23, 15:05:18 »
Sir Nathan is our resident guru on things Teutonic; if anyone will know, it'll be him.
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SirNathanQ

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #7 on: 2013-08-24, 05:44:12 »
Teutonic Knights you say? Well yes, the crazy crested helms existed. I sport one myself. You see, while crests do make wonderful levers in the heat of battle, many were mounted to easily come off without any serious harm to the wearer. They serve a very practical purpose of identifying leaders in battle, where a surcoat might be obscured by bodies in the fray, a crest would rise above the line of heads, so that the soldiers would know their leader lived.
Among the Teutonic Knights, only leaders would be granted permission to wear one (I myself portray the Grosskomptur, the 2nd highest office within the Order in the Beauseant Brotherhood, and for Living History, I portray a Komptur, a district leader) and since they sacrificed personal heraldry to enter the Order, often the crest would take a strange shape, like wings, a fist, a wolf's head, horns, ect.
Hope that helps.  :)
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B. Patricius

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #8 on: 2013-08-24, 09:12:41 »
and here I was hoping Sir Nathan started this thread to show off a new crest!

the crests, and how they developed is a very interesting discussion in heraldry and archaeology as a whole.  There aren't too many left of extant examples for us to admire.  One really good example is "The Black Prince" Prince Edward.  Here is an image from the Cantebury Cathedral taken from google:

it's something that indeed came about to help in the fog of war and to help identify leaders.  It's very much the same as the flags sashimono used in feudal Japan:


to me, it's one of those amazing instances where the historical context actually is there for something most people think is made up. ;)
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Sir Ulrich

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #9 on: 2013-08-24, 22:32:49 »
They did historically exist, I also know where you could buy them but they're located in Europe:
http://www.armorymarek.com/helmets-12th--13th-century
I would of gotten one, but I want my helmet to be a bit more versatile so I went with the dargen great helm, which is iconically German/Crusader. I could add a crest if I wanted but I dont think I will at the moment. Needless to say they do look quite intimidating and badass I really like the ones with the fists and hands on top, they're rather imposing looking which is rather cool.

Sir Douglas

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #10 on: 2013-08-25, 17:34:11 »
Thank you, Sir Nathan! Very helpful indeed. What would they have been made out of historically? Leather/wood/etc. like other crests? Something lightweight I would assume.

to me, it's one of those amazing instances where the historical context actually is there for something most people think is made up. ;)
Ha! Yeah, isn't it funny how that works? There's so much nonsense out there that sometimes it's hard to tell what's real and what isn't. I find that often times fact is wilder than fiction.

Man, how I would love to see the Black Prince's gear up close and in person. Such a wealth of information there. Maybe one day....


I really want to make a crested Teutonic helm, now. :P
Per pale azure and argent, an eagle displayed per pale argent and sable, armed and langued or.

So a Norman, a Saxon, and a Viking walk into England....

SirNathanQ

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #11 on: 2013-08-25, 22:02:47 »
You hit the nail on the head, leather and wood are exactly what you (and history) would use.
"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect." -Carl Von Clausewitz
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B. Patricius

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #12 on: 2013-08-28, 22:30:48 »
First off,

Douglas, that's a beautiful kit you're sporting.  Really nice.

Second,

Sir Ulrich!  :o 8)Man bud, you always find a way to spend my money lol where does one find the purchasing icon on that website?
They did historically exist, I also know where you could buy them but they're located in Europe:
http://www.armorymarek.com/helmets-12th--13th-century
"Be open with your thoughts, Be witty with your humor, Be kind with your words, Be sensible in your acts." - Lord Dane
Never theorize before you have data. Invariably, you end up twisting facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.
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Sir James A

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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #13 on: 2013-08-30, 15:08:58 »
Pavel is in the Czech Republic. If I remember right he only does money orders. But if you send him an email, he will send you a current prices spreadsheet. You just cross reference the letter/number on the sheet with the item you want.
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Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
« Reply #14 on: 2013-08-30, 17:15:12 »
Or you could make them, which honestly isn't too hard.
"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect." -Carl Von Clausewitz
"He is truly a fearless knight and secure on every side, for his soul is protected by the armor of faith just as his body is protected by armor of steel." -Saint Bernard of Clairvoux