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Author Topic: SCA Culture Question  (Read 43654 times)

Sir Edward

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #45 on: 2013-05-24, 21:58:00 »
I'm just wondering about the SCA and its "hits" as a whole.  I used to run a WMA club for a short bit, and we prided ourselves on the ability to move exceptionally quick, and stop before even coming in contact with the other person.  We spent 45 minutes a day practicing that drill to "attain control."  Then, in my time in the SCA, most everyone agreed I was fast, but "not aggressive enough, and not hard enough."  I'm just kind of wondering where this came from?

That would bother me too. The thing is, in a real fight with sharp weapons, it doesn't take a lot of force at all to kill or horribly maim someone. Hits that are considered "light" in the SCA would often be deadly in a real fight. But if you make the argument "yes but they're wearing armor!", then you run into the issue that historically, armor was VERY good at stopping swords. If the rattan hits don't kill you, a real sword wouldn't either. Real-world armored combat was more about attacking the gaps in the armor, using the armor against the opponent, and so on. So the manuscripts contain a lot of throws, wrestling, stabs to the joints, eyes, and groin, arm-breaks, and so on. All the sorts of things you can't do safely in a fun environment.

So SCA combat strikes me as unarmored combat, but with armor to be safe. And if you're emulating unarmored combat, then they should be counting a lot more of the light hits too.

« Last Edit: 2013-05-24, 21:58:41 by Sir Edward »
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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #46 on: 2013-05-24, 22:01:22 »
I'm going to suit up in "Ford" armor, call myself "Cadillac" and kick Nissan in his "Dodge" when he is not looking. :)
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Ian

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #47 on: 2013-05-24, 22:19:53 »
So SCA combat strikes me as unarmored combat, but with armor to be safe. And if you're emulating unarmored combat, then they should be counting a lot more of the light hits too.

This is an excellent point and one of the paradoxes that soured me on the SCA heavy game.
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B. Patricius

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #48 on: 2013-05-24, 22:32:25 »
I'm starting to wonder if it's SCA culture, versus the culture and ideals that permeate through WMA.  We train hard, just as hard as SCAdians, but we do it differently.  I'm not a fan of super deep bruises or watching someone in a melee get flown 5 feet, like I saw at an Estrella war.  The guy got nailed hard by a two man team of spear and sword and shield.

I'm going to suit up in "Ford" armor, call myself "Cadillac" and kick Nissan in his "Dodge" when he is not looking. :)
ROLFMAO

I LOVE Nissan's kit, there's alot of cool samurai armour out there.  I'm actually working on an osode-tsuki do-maru of the 13th century.  I'm hoping it'll look at least a bit like this:
and needless to say, with all that lace and individual scales, it's taking me a while.  :o But to me, that's probably more than half the fun!

The local SCAdians here love the idea that I'm making that armour and doing it for the "right" reasons, whatever that means.  They just wish I'd go out and practice with them now, with next to nothing, just some loner gear.  I have a bad knee and need that armour to protect it, and my other injuries.  I'm already pretty injured (I'm on disability), and I don't need more  :)  hurt is one thing, injured is another.

I'm just glad I found another group in the area that actually told me I hit too hard!! I couldn't believe it!  I'm so excited I can wear pretty much all period armor for the early 13th century, and fight in it, and be plenty protected!  Not only that, but they applaud that I wear braies, hose, and the rest!

The guy I'm working with, knows the pain method, but doesn't like to teach with it at all.  And anyone, anyone who thinks he's a wimp, I'd love to see them fight him.  He's been training in WMA, Kenjutsu, and Kendo for the better part of 40 years and trains... TRAINS the Battle of Nations Team USA!  He knows how to hit plenty hard, but enjoys going light.  I just wish I knew where the SCA came up with the attitude of "if it ain't a deep bruise needing a sign, it ain't worth it" attitude.

I know plenty of SCAdians that are very respectable and well liked and hit hard when required against an opponent but don't with me because he knows I'll take a light shot.  It's just a game, and taking light hits makes one better at blocking them!  He's also a knight and titled Baron too, so well respected within the community.

So SCA combat strikes me as unarmored combat, but with armor to be safe. And if you're emulating unarmored combat, then they should be counting a lot more of the light hits too.

This is an excellent point and one of the paradoxes that soured me on the SCA heavy game.

It soured me too.  Honestly I don't care about fighting all that much now I've found another outlet, and thanks to Sir Brian here giving me the idea in the first place!  I enjoy the arts and sciences as much as I do rapier, broadsword, and armor.  And now with this community, I get to discuss all these things with a very respectful group where all our opinions are heard.  I was branded "weird" from the get-go in the SCA because I cared about hose and braies, which lets face it, minus a kilt, are some of the most comfortable things you can wear period!  I was labeled a stitch nazi, even though I've never, never criticized another's kit, I just hold myself to a standard I see among everyone here, and always look at particularly Sir Nathan's Teutonic, and Sir Ian's secular kits as a bar I wish to hold myself to.

It just kinda hit me a couple months ago, "if it ain't fun, why ya doin it?"  and I left the SCA pretty much for good.  Which is a shame.  As much as they try to be "all inclusive" people at least in my area do a fine job of pushing some of us, like my lady and I who pride ourselves in being authentic as possible, away.
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Sir Edward

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #49 on: 2013-05-24, 23:55:20 »
It just kinda hit me a couple months ago, "if it ain't fun, why ya doin it?"  and I left the SCA pretty much for good.  Which is a shame.  As much as they try to be "all inclusive" people at least in my area do a fine job of pushing some of us, like my lady and I who pride ourselves in being authentic as possible, away.

That really is a shame. If I'm understanding correctly, they pushed you away for being too interested in authenticity? That's a big shame, if you weren't pushy to everyone else. I can understand in the case of a true "period nazi", but just setting a high standard for yourself is a different matter entirely.
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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #50 on: 2013-05-25, 00:46:16 »
That really is a shame. If I'm understanding correctly, they pushed you away for being too interested in authenticity? That's a big shame, if you weren't pushy to everyone else. I can understand in the case of a true "period nazi", but just setting a high standard for yourself is a different matter entirely.
That's exactly how it went down Sir Edward.  Basically, long story short of it, we were all at a SCAdian's house having a sewing party.  The kids were watching "Brave," and I couldn't help but make a few comments about the blue paint, great kilts, and every other sort of ethnocentrism shown therein.  I, being Irish-Scot/Gaelic, found it a bit offensive.  Also, as an anthropologist I couldn't help but stir the pot as it were, and said "isn't it funny that if everyone dresses up in full Sioux war gear and calls themselves Apache it's racist but it isn't the same for genericeltvikings."  I just don't condone any sort of ethnocentrism.  I also made a comment of how the great kilts were 16th century, blue woad paint was ancient times, and the lead girl wore a 14th century cotehardie.  Which, for me is a big deal, as it seems before this film, Disney did an okay job at historical details, so I felt it worth discussing.

All I got back from a the peer in the group was "you're a stitch nazi aren't you?!" in a very accusing way.  I replied, "no, I just care about my kit, and look for authenticity within it.  This is all just for discussion's sake."  She then replied, "well isn't that a diplomatic way of putting it."  and to put it plainly, we haven't been back since.

Beyond that, it was my second burn, if you will, with the SCA.  The first was a knight and his two squires that are anything but chivalric.  Needless to say, I actually was debating if jail was worth it beating on the guys, which is always a bad way to go.  It's also sad to say the only reason why I didn't was because I firmly believe it wouldn't have taught them anything!

So, burn once, shame on them, burn twice, shame on me, and I've left.  My lady had similar experiences with her hand-sewn cotehardie she's working on with that peer at that sewing party, and those same two squires and knight. 

Probably, it's the strongest reason why I enjoy it here.  I gotta say again, because I feel it can't be said enough, the level of respect and open minds shown here is very commendable.  That, and for me, after hanging out with you guys here so much, it's worth it to take a roadtrip of sorts to make it to Kentucky eventually for DoK.  That is somewhere that would be just pure awesomesauce for me.
« Last Edit: 2013-05-25, 00:47:50 by B. Patricius »
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Sir Edward

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #51 on: 2013-05-27, 03:13:06 »

Yeah, that's something I think we all highly prize here on this forum, is a friendly atmosphere to discuss things with an open mind. Everyone has a different threshold for how much pain and expense they're willing to go through for authenticity, so some folks just don't put a huge emphasis on it. And that's OK. I think the only time it really bothers me is if people pass non-authentic stuff off as authentic. As long as people don't do that, I'm cool with whatever they want to do.

I mean, we all have to start somewhere, and some people really want to aim for a more fantasy or movie-like appearance, or are working with a tight budget, or whatever. You just never really know.

And I think the most effective way to encourage people is by setting an example. :)
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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #52 on: 2013-05-27, 09:46:43 »

Yeah, that's something I think we all highly prize here on this forum, is a friendly atmosphere to discuss things with an open mind. Everyone has a different threshold for how much pain and expense they're willing to go through for authenticity, so some folks just don't put a huge emphasis on it. And that's OK. I think the only time it really bothers me is if people pass non-authentic stuff off as authentic. As long as people don't do that, I'm cool with whatever they want to do.

I mean, we all have to start somewhere, and some people really want to aim for a more fantasy or movie-like appearance, or are working with a tight budget, or whatever. You just never really know.

And I think the most effective way to encourage people is by setting an example. :)

QFT especially the last comment.  I can't express how much Sir Ian's kit got me started two years back on following more authentic looking kits.  I started going crazy over effigies and manuscript miniatures.

I'm totally a fan of the fantasy and even the "I'm a Celt, but with a definite Skyrim Nord with Rohan feel to it."  And there's definitely places for that, and I do think the SCA, whether they want to admit it, has "Creative Anachronism" in their name for that very reason.  There are some beautiful kits out there that have no real precedence but functionality that look amazing! 

I'm just more driven towards authenticity to history and the archaeological record.  I can't help it.  It just upsets me when people see me doing that, and then automatically think "oh, so that means he hates mine" when usually it's the opposite.  I've played Jedi, Mandalorian, and CloneTrooper.  I'm currently working on a Halo ODST kit, and want to make a LOTR inspired literally Dwarf kit too!  It's just when I hear "medieval - renaissance reenactment" I go for what really was there and let my fantasy just be it was all puppies and kittens without a plague, and still have all of today's modern conveniences :D 

The great news is now I'm part of the Adrian Empire around here, and they have their quirks just like any and all groups.  What I love, is today, just for a weekly training session, I came out in my just made cotton flannel hose, muslin braies, muslin shirt, and Templar cappae.  It was over 95 degrees, and it breathed well, but I was hot, no doubt about it.   But it was so worth it.  Especially when they said, "wow, it's machine stitched.  From far away I assumed it was all by hand because of how great and authentic it looks!" My knight that's training me, he looked me up and down, got a smirk on his face and said "fix yer boots."  Him being a retired Marine, having only that comment of constructive criticism, I was floored and humbled. 

I think it depends more on the individuals that make up the local groups more than the group as a whole, but there are definitely some "culture" things that permeate throughout.  Like Sir Ian said as his first post, a lot of SCAdians are all over the viking kits right now, and to me, be it more fantasy (SKYRIM!!) inspired, or historical, they can look amazing doing it.  They also like to hit really hard.  Adrian Empire is wicked fast with their shots, but they have little to no "pop" behind them, much like WMA, and I love I can train in just a t-shirt and boardshorts if I want because a shinai can only do so much.

To each their own, I'm starting to think.  We only get one shot at all this, so why not make it a good one right?  At 30, I've already been to far too many funerals.

And yes Sir Wolf, I understand after posting that above, I gotta post pictures quick or be banned  :o ;D
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Sir Wolf

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #53 on: 2013-05-27, 13:43:02 »
ewhh honey badger ate a snake

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #54 on: 2013-05-27, 17:01:42 »
I'm going to suit up in "Ford" armor, call myself "Cadillac" and kick Nissan in his "Dodge" when he is not looking. :)

Gotta see his 'Daimler Benz' persona armor.  Complete with Halberd's made 'devil hoof' sabatons.  Truely wicked  :)

I fight in just over SCA mins (I wear hardened leather vambraces).  I have a tendency to 'take light'.

Had a gentle that did not know me (several years ago at a high profile tourney) questioned my 'shrugging' a blow to the thigh.  Until he saw my thigh armor (aka nothing but virtue).

My 14th C kit is going to be different, I am going to have to readjust my calibration.  ymmv

B. Patricius

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #55 on: 2013-05-27, 22:40:20 »
Hrolfr,

I know what you mean about recalibrating :) a hint I got from my knight I'm training with when he went up to full 14th/15th plate was to "go by sound."  Have a buddy throw light and good shots on your armor and listen for the difference the sound makes, much like a shot to the helmet.  We also work with rebated steel though, so it's a bit different, but same concepts apply.
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Sir Edward

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #56 on: 2013-05-28, 16:23:35 »

Adrian Empire. I never joined or really interacted with them much, but I remember them doing a lot of recruitment when I was in college. At the time I was a bit too shy and too much of a social misfit to join a group that didn't have anyone in it that I already knew. :)

How does their combat system compare? Are they also doing rattan, or steel fighting?
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Sir William

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #57 on: 2013-05-28, 20:21:01 »
I love the armor in Skyrim...all of it.  I think Sir Ian had a mod that substituted more authentic 14th C armor kits for what was available in Skyrim...that was pretty darn cool.

Oh by the way...I bought History: Great Battles Medieval after Sir Edward had posted the image in another thread and quickly realized why I only do RTS on the PC.  It sucks on console!
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B. Patricius

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #58 on: 2013-05-28, 20:44:55 »
I'm a complete noob so I may be wrong on some things about the Adrian Empire, but I'll post up what I know from my knight and what I've read here: http://www.adrianempire.org/documents/manuals.php

noobs start with shinai, heavy t-shirt material, cups, and hard elbows and knees with a WMA mesh helm
after that,
you get to start working with live rebated steel, think Hanwei's, BKS, Albion's I:33 and Messer, etc etc for "armoured combat" and you also have the opportunity to fight "ren"
Ren is for renaissance combat which has two categories:
1: is rapier combat, but they do allow cuts with the edge, and use a slightly heavier and earlier period of design.  Think authentic 16th-17th century type stuff.  Also the armor requirements are more towards gentleman duels, lots of layers of good fabric.
My Spanish kit is textbook:
hose, braies, and shirt followed by
doublet, and trunks
and finally a jerkin over that
with a gorget for safety hidden at my throat and a cup hidden as well

2: is cut and thrust, earlier renaissance rapier (think 15th century, like Medici Italy) and later Scottish broadsword and backsword, with heavier blades and more armor but not as armored as armored rebated combat. 

It's interesting to note, the video I posted up is actually at an Adrian Empire event with Puck fighting that Scottish guy.  Basically, for cut and thrust you can use a good later rapier as well, as long as it has a blade that can hold up to it.  Puck uses a mid 15th century Espada Ropera by Darkwood Armory.

Basically, they start you from scratch and look at what kind of experience you have.  For example, I know quite a bit, but nothing that easily translates into what's called "points" within the Adrian Empire.  So for me, I'm starting at the beginning with a shinai, and loving it, and my knight says after the first few tourneys I enter I should be able to make next higher list and start working with those weapons.  He figures, depending on my making events, that I can start working Rapier in 3 events, and rebated armored combat in as little as 6 but realistically 9.  Also, it's cool to note these "events" are every month, required by the Adrian Empire. 

We also have set up a training day, every Sunday as well, but nothing that happens there goes towards points.  Only events, wars, etc count for that.

I really like it.  But again, I think it all depends on the group a person ends up working with and associating with.  Just like the military, where if a kid hangs out with downers, he becomes a downer, he hangs out with squared away guys, he becomes a squared away guy and might a career out of it.

I'm fortunate we have the group of knights here in the local area.  Sir Thorn, our Archery instructor, can instinctively (he brings the bow to bear for maybe 2 seconds) shoot 2" groupings at 20 feet! 

Sir Ian is the knight I'm training under for combat.  He has over 40 years experience with just about everything.  He laughed and loved working with my destreza, only afterward telling me he knew Puck so at least knew our quirks.  I still got him though three times, which in itself was amazing.  His baby is longsword, so that's what I've been working on with him in shinai, and once I get my kite and heater shields made, we'll move to sword and shield, but he wants me to earn that. 

Sir Ian is also a great archer and can get amazing groups too.  When they first were showing us how they shoot and how they would train us, Sir Ian barely looked at the target, shot, and got two arrows touching at 10 feet.  They all work together, cohesively like a team, and help others mature in their own martial arts.  At least in combat, Sir Ian shows what works for him, we practice it slow, and do drills to muscle memory, and then has us practice those techniques.  The fact we work with him, and then the other half work with each other, is awesome.  He trains the BOTN guys and knows plenty of as he says "techniques and methods."  He also believes a "trick" is a one-show pony, with little skill, whereas learning the techniques and methods actually used to produce that "trick" are priceless and can be carried out throughout our martial career.

Also, about armor.

One word:  AWESOME!!
they require either plate for armored combat, or transitional splints with mail.  The mail is there for a reason and is required if not wearing full plate.  So, I'm going to Home Depot today to buy some annealed rebar wire and get cracking on my riveted hauberk so it's ready for me when I attain that level. 

In short, Adrian Empire works for me.  I'm not into politics, which in AE, you don't have to be.  In a very cynical way of putting it, the Adrian Empire's "paths to knighthood" can be construed as "attendance."  But a cynical way of putting it with the SCA is a "popularity contest" too.  They both have their merits, and for me, Adria fits me very nicely.

Also, for throwing shots, as it is still termed in the Adrian Empire as well as SCA.  Adria focuses on speed and dexterity, rather than all out power.  My lady did her first combat practice last Sunday, and Sir Ian spent about 15 minutes on just how to properly grip a longsword through the cut.  He showed her on Shinai and his bastard sword.  It's really important not to throw hard shots.  I'm even continually asked to look out for my power, because of my recent time being a Pirate and a Jedi and mainly for show.  They want really fast shots, that barely touch the opponent, be it with shinai, rapier, or rebated steel.  Control is key for this.  For me, I enjoy this style more than SCA hardsuiting just because of my injuries, my knee can't take the kind of shots the SCA does.

But hands down, for me, this has more to do with Sir Ian and Sir Thorn, rather than the group they're a part of.  Sir Ian tells me he knows of this group as well. 

I'd say this was shot, about 50 feet, on day by Sir Thorn.  Basically he has a nice long driveway, and this was shot from the street up into his yard and berm. 
« Last Edit: 2013-05-28, 20:57:10 by B. Patricius »
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Thorsteinn

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Re: SCA Culture Question
« Reply #59 on: 2013-05-31, 01:36:32 »
SCA-wise I'm probably the most informed guy here on the forum for the culture of the first, and If I may say best, SCA kingdom. I'm speaking of course of the West.

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