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Author Topic: Knights and Freemasonry  (Read 19957 times)

Corvus

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #15 on: 2013-05-17, 18:08:01 »
That had me thinking similar thoughts
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B. Patricius

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #16 on: 2013-05-17, 21:44:42 »
Let alone another fact I just remembered...

they swore vows of chastity... how can there be any heirs?!?!?  From what I've read it was practically forbidden for any Templar to have contact with women, at least within the rules.  I have heard there were apparently Templar nuns as well in Europe, but I haven't found any secondary or primary sources yet to back that up either.  If I was to solemnly portray a Knight of the Temple, I would be having zero contact with my lady, or her daughter for that time!

typical of today though, it'd be rewarding the knights 700 years ago that didn't follow the rule!
« Last Edit: 2013-05-17, 21:46:36 by B. Patricius »
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Sir Edward

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #17 on: 2013-05-17, 21:52:45 »

I can see two ways for them to have "heirs", beyond the "breaking the rule" option. :)

1. Had children before joining.
2. Had children after it was disbanded.

Neither would have been in huge numbers, I don't think.
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Ian

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #18 on: 2013-05-17, 21:56:18 »
Let alone another fact I just remembered...

they swore vows of chastity... how can there be any heirs?!?!?  From what I've read it was practically forbidden for any Templar to have contact with women, at least within the rules.  I have heard there were apparently Templar nuns as well in Europe, but I haven't found any secondary or primary sources yet to back that up either.  If I was to solemnly portray a Knight of the Temple, I would be having zero contact with my lady, or her daughter for that time!

typical of today though, it'd be rewarding the knights 700 years ago that didn't follow the rule!

Weren't the Templar sergeants just lay brothers of the Order?  Portray one of them! Gets you around that pesky vow of chastity! :)
« Last Edit: 2013-05-17, 21:56:42 by Ian »
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B. Patricius

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #19 on: 2013-05-17, 23:48:56 »
Sergeants, from what I recall are members of the group that are not noble, that's it.  I don't think it includes temporary assignment.  I know Master at Arms is a higher rank of sorts, so that's out too. 

From what I read of the rule and other sources, it appears they all took the same vows and followed the primitive rule, in theory, to the letter.  I'd say, there's a guarantee that there was a couple who didn't (after all how many people wash out, for whatever reason, of a 4 year commitment in the military today counting basic?) but those that washed for dishonorable reasons I feel didn't fare too well.  Even those that were temporary members, they took the vows, whatever children they had prior to it, family, wife, etc would be stripped away for the time period they served.  I'm going to go through my sources, I have a TON of primary and secondary texts actually, and I'll try to quote what I just said.

I know on Mr. Metz's flikr, he has a picture of him in a Templar kit, and the caption states that since he's married he would in theory be a _____ Templar on temporary duty.

Being a secular member of the order could work, but that'd be splitting hairs for the most part.  We've already agreed I'd do the persona when necessary: IE when I see people prancing about with long hair and wenches on their arms while wearing the white habit and red cross, or when people ask me, or especially when people seem interested in knowing the archaeological and histiographical data.  This kit is more a labor of love than anything, I'll still have a secular kit as well, making a sleeveless surcoat with ailiettes is the least of my worries :) that and that kit can have a fancy helmet, sword, etc etc etc, more excuses for prettier things!  Hence why I've never joined a real order  :o ;D

Sir Edward,

good point about having children prior to joining, didn't think of that one.  But as you said, it'd be rare beyond rare.  I hope it doesn't matter in whichever court hears this FUBAR boondoggle out, the Templar Order had acquisitions, not the individual knights.  When the order was absolved, all those assets would have been dispersed at the Church's discretion, and the brothers would have been absorbed into other orders, I'm sure, happily. 
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Corvus

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #20 on: 2013-05-18, 04:38:01 »
Bro. Patricius - I watched that Templars movie you recommended. It was very good. Thanks for the reference.
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Sir James A

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #21 on: 2013-05-18, 21:23:36 »
Something that's really interesting about the Templars is that a few years ago, some documentation was found in the Vatican library that shows that the ruling against them was overturned about 20 years after the fact. I think it's pretty clear that even back then, people realized how political and atrocious it was, and within a couple of decades the decision was reversed. Of course, the damage was done.

Chinon Parchment, found by Barbara Frale. She's an author.
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Corvus

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #22 on: 2013-05-18, 21:25:15 »
That's crazy eh? That they overturned it after all that had been done? Wow - even then politics was shady
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B. Patricius

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #23 on: 2013-05-18, 22:14:34 »
That's crazy eh? That they overturned it after all that had been done? Wow - even then politics was shady

You can easily ask the Roman Empire or the Greeks if politics were ever not shady ;)  far as I'm concerned, you get three or more people together you have politics, intrigue, and conspiracy  ;D

Corvus, glad you liked the video.  I thought they did a good job of keeping on the subject at hand, and keeping an objective viewpoint.  I just wish others would as well.
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Sir James A

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #24 on: 2013-05-19, 02:32:21 »
That's crazy eh? That they overturned it after all that had been done? Wow - even then politics was shady

Yep, and another interesting part is that Frale was doing research on something else completely, and found it misfiled somewhere in the Vatican library. So it sat, misfiled, for 700 years. I'm sure there were a few who knew of the Templars judgement being altered, and were probably considered looney when they were alive. Also adds to the conspiracy theory aspect, of course.
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Corvus

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #25 on: 2013-05-19, 04:01:14 »
"Misfiled" eh?   Even that gets a guy wondering, though I imagine that some of the stuff stored away in the Vatican archives could be an archivists nightmare....yet full of treasures as well.
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B. Patricius

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #26 on: 2013-05-19, 05:36:44 »
The Vatican Archives is something I would thoroughly enjoy dedicating my life to.  For anyone wanting a tour of history: http://www.vatican.va/library_archives/ they even have some of it online.

Also, "secret" in terms of the Vatican, not sure if you all know this or not, isn't the same as "classified, or secret" etc within our day and age.  It just means it's been stored away.  It's so sad, that most of our beliefs in the Templars comes from a file being lost... reminds me of the Ark at the end of "Raiders"  :o ::) ;D the joke in my family is "and never to be found again."
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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #27 on: 2013-05-19, 13:15:23 »
Blame Phillip 'le Bel' (aka Phillip the Fair of France).  He owed the Templars a mega-buttload of money.  By doing what he did, he not only erased the debt, but claimed  alot of rich , productive land that was left to the Templars.

Sir James A

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #28 on: 2013-05-19, 14:58:00 »
The Vatican Archives is something I would thoroughly enjoy dedicating my life to.  For anyone wanting a tour of history: http://www.vatican.va/library_archives/ they even have some of it online.

Also, "secret" in terms of the Vatican, not sure if you all know this or not, isn't the same as "classified, or secret" etc within our day and age.  It just means it's been stored away.  It's so sad, that most of our beliefs in the Templars comes from a file being lost... reminds me of the Ark at the end of "Raiders"  :o ::) ;D the joke in my family is "and never to be found again."

Bolding mine - It's a key document to the main theory, though. The Templars were officially disbanded by the Pope. No questions there. But to still call yourself a Templar after the fact would make you an enemy of the church/religion, to be associated with "heretical homosexual devil worshippers" (as per the charges/convictions). By having the Templar ruling overturned, it did not reinstate the Templars in the church, however, it did mean that they wouldn't be persecuted, and forced to stay underground. The "offshoot" Templars, like the ones in Scotland (excommunicated by the Pope anyway) seems more plausible and reasonable, at least to me.
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B. Patricius

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Re: Knights and Freemasonry
« Reply #29 on: 2013-05-20, 19:35:36 »
That definitely sheds some light on that as well Sir James.
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