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Mail shirts with front openings
Sir James A:
I posted this over on AA too, and got a reply from Robert MacPherson. :)
--- Quote ---I think I can see the second buckle (on the wearer's right), but it doesn't match the more obvious one on the wearer's left; and neither of them is as nice as the hook clasp. I suspect that both buckles are replacements, and that the collar originally had a second hook clasp.
I know of no other examples of straps being secured with a buckle at both ends. It seems like a way to lose your strap. On the other hand riveting the strap directly to mail is not uncommon. I have riveted leather straps to mail, and have not found any trouble.
--- End quote ---
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=155769
There are a bunch of good posts there, which I won't copy and paste here, but in short - multiple historical examples of mail closed with straps and buckles. And of all things, the Churburg harness, which is one of the most widely copied / reproduced styles, even has a bunch of ties on the fauld that hold it closed. How did that never click for me???
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?s=63bfd2bcc112e1aac516eea644588028&app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=7321
So, I think going with buckled or tied mail is historically accurate, at least in certain circumstances. Huzzah!! Guess I'll be doing more mail work than I thought over the winter....
Ian:
I really like what I see on that example in Cleveland. I may just do that to my haubergeon to make it a little more manageable and get a tighter more close-fitting garment. Good stuff Sir James!
Sir Edward:
Fantastic! So that's a 14th century precedent? Nice!
Sir James A:
Yeah, that was just a couple people with links to historical examples too. With more time, it might get some more examples / links. After splitting my hauberk, I really, really wondered why they wouldn't have done the same thing historically, at least sometimes - I mean for them, it wasn't "splitting" a hauberk - it was just leaving the front open. I'm curious how the straps riveted to mail will work; I'm thinking leather on both sides, and a longer than usual rivet. I'll post a thread if I get around to doing it.
Allan Senefelder:
Theres a shirt here in my town which i've viewed and handled personally which while not split fully has a deep V opeing at the neck with a flap of riveted mail that spans the V when on and is secured by hooks which simply hook into rings of the shirt chest. It belongs to a young man who used to work with me ( he's a little bent at me over politics right at the moment ) back when he was a teenager. When I met him he had spent several month the previous summer at an uncles manor in Ireland and the shirt turned up in a really old trunk the uncle was unaware of in the attic ( as I recall the manor is 17th century ). It is waist length with T shirt length sleeves. The rings graduate from thicker wire around the neck, shoulders and center chest to thinner twords the lower abdomen and especially the sleeves. The graduation is such that it is visible at say 4-5 feet. I've encountered this graduated wire thickness in European, eastern European and occasionally Turkish mail but never in ethnographic mails like Indo-Persia, Arab or SE Asian. It has a short collar that is of the same ring diameter. Based on my hands on assement I placed the shirt in the later 15th or 16th century and am confident of a European origin. I have seen the hook through mail closure method several times before and at one time copied it when butted mail still sold and it is quite secure ( at least as a method for securing a flap to cover a larger V neck to allow the head into the shirt and then close the neck up with a close fitting collar and cover the V opening ).
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