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How deferring to Women because of their sex is bad.
Lord Dane:
--- Quote from: Ian on 2012-08-01, 12:46:13 ---
--- Quote from: Lord_Dane on 2012-08-01, 12:18:35 ---Sir Nathan, I grew up in a household of women & they are by no means "weaker" even if meant in generally speaking about their physical prowess. Women are just as capable as men in any regards if they train the same, learn the same, & can also excel in suit. Do not be presumptious and mistake their gender for something else. They have traits that make us differ but like men, we learn from our weaknesses & hopefully overcome them. I can train anyone to do the same thing & learn the same skills if they are disciplined, receptive to learning, & willing to act when required. Focusing on vulnerabilities is how you overcome an opponent including your own weaknesses.
--- End quote ---
I disagree wholeheartedly. A lot of women cannot train to the same level because of their physical limitations, and it's simply because they on average are physically weaker. And that's not a BAD thing. If you don't want to take it from me, take it from a female combat engineer Marine officer, formerly top collegiate athlete who after serving on the front lines actually came clean about the physical limitations of women.
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal
Look at any sport. Women train just as hard as men, but there's a reason they don't compete against each other. The Olympics are a great example. I don't believe the women train any less hard than the men, but if you look at the performance levels, the men are faster and stronger in their respective sports. This is not a deficiency of training, this is a gender difference. Of course there are exceptions to everything, but they are called the exceptions for a reason.
My questions to Thorsteinn, or anyone for that matter, is this though: Does the notion of Romantic Chivalry put its practitioner at odds with the notion of gender equality?
--- End quote ---
If this were so Sir Ian, men & women would never overcome 'limitations' that are put upon them. I agree there are gender differences that are 'factual realities' making us 'limited in certain capacities'. But there are exceptions as stated...
There are limitations we place upon ourselves and those placed upon us by others. I can share in many of those war stories with vets disabled in combat that overcame their injuries who had no expectation of regaining their lives as they were before .... women & men. They fought together not thinking they would be in the situations they were in but overcame challenge & made it happen.
Ian:
This doesn't address inequality at all. Overcoming a challenge or limitation is not the same as performing to the same level as another person all other things being equal besides gender. And if you're suggesting that women need to overcome a challenge or limitation to perform equal to men, you're acknowledging that they do indeed have a limitation or challenge.
This isn't about a disabled person going through rehab and regaining their lives. This is about two people, with nothing wrong with them, being different. A woman simply cannot perform physically to the same level of a man on AVERAGE. Female body builders cannot lift as much weight as male body builders. Female runners cannot run as fast as male runners. Female tennis players cannot serve as hard as male tennis players. These are the realities of the world. These aren't challenges to be overcome by alternate means.
My wife has the same job as me. We're both military officers, we're both pilots. Can she fly as well as me? Sure, we had the same training and the same standards. Can she run as fast as me on the physical readiness test? no.... would she be able to pull me out of a crashed helicopter? Maybe... Does she have to meet the same physical standards as me? No... why? Because the military acknowledges the physical differences between us. This doesn't affect our ability to fly a helicopter. But it does affect for example, a female who wants to serve in the infantry, who's very job and survival depends on physical ability and endurance.
I suggest you read the article I linked.
Lord Dane:
--- Quote from: Ian on 2012-08-01, 13:13:41 ---This doesn't address inequality at all. Overcoming a challenge or limitation is not the same as performing to the same level as another person all other things being equal besides gender. And if you're suggesting that women need to overcome a challenge or limitation to perform equal to men, you're acknowledging that they do indeed have a limitation or challenge.
This isn't about a disabled person going through rehab and regaining their lives. This is about two people, with nothing wrong with them, being different. A woman simply cannot perform physically to the same level of a man on AVERAGE. Female body builders cannot lift as much weight as male body builders. Female runners cannot run as fast as male runners. Female tennis players cannot serve as hard as male tennis players. These are the realities of the world. These aren't challenges to be overcome by alternate means.
My wife has the same job as me. We're both military officers, we're both pilots. Can she fly as well as me? Sure, we had the same training and the same standards. Can she run as fast as me on the physical readiness test? no.... would she be able to pull me out of a crashed helicopter? Maybe... Does she have to meet the same physical standards as me? No... why? Because the military acknowledges the physical differences between us. This doesn't affect our ability to fly a helicopter. But it does affect for example, a female who wants to serve in the infantry, who's very job and survival depends on physical ability and endurance.
I suggest you really read the article I linked.
--- End quote ---
Granted. I agree we have physical limitations by nature of our own being and gender differences. As such, standards are created. ** Personal note: Salute (to you & wife) ** :) :) I am happy that you & your wife serve together ... especially in the same capacity. I train & serve both men & women with the same standards & expectations of performance (even if the gender standard varies & has to be applied) .... when it comes to combat, I will place my life in their hands just as much as theirs in mine. I will not say they are incapable of service because situations arise where you must be innovative & use ingenuity over physical means to get a job done. At desperate times, that is what saves you.
Personally, I would limit their service in the Infantry (or front-line combat) because of what I know would happen if they were ever captured alive by the enemy. But if they are willing to sign up, they will know what the dangers are & take their chances like us so .... if you wish to sacrifice yourself to serve & protect my back, who am I to say no. A woman is just as able to kill a man (or protect him) if trained right and follows orders. MY standards are that you do the same job efficiently but some are better than others at certain jobs. Cross-training is required for what I do with my team (in which women are included).
Sir William:
Some women like and appreciate that deference...take my wife, for instance. She's old-fashioned, likes that I hold the door or grab the chair for her, pick up the check, do the man chores around the house- all things she is perfectly able to do for herself but likes the attention and the feeling of being made much of.
I don't care how equal they are to us, as Ian said there are certain limitations due to the nature of their bodies and nothing else- and his Olympic examples bear up that argument.
I was raised to know that you didn't hit women under most circumstances, even in some self defense scenarios when its just hands involved. I mean really, unless they're trained and are trying really, really hard they can't hurt you unless you let them.
Sir Patrick:
To answer Sir Ian's question: I don't feel practicing romantic chivalry is at odds with gender equality. Deference to women was a sign of respect for their station. Granted, their station has evolved quite a bit through the centuries, but the respect they deserve remains. I don't hold a door for a lady because I think she's too weak to open it herself, I do it as a sign of respect. I don't have to know her to respect her position in society (much as I'd be respectful to clergy or law enforcement and military personnel). As far as defending them, on average they are physically weaker, and therefore deserving of a knight's protection. But here is a different slant on that: male mammals (especially primates) are hard-wired to protect the females of their species. From a strictly biological standpoint, once a male has made hiscontribution to the gene pool, his reason for being has been severely diminished. This is one of the reasons we see altruistic behavior among primate males. So maybe we just can't help ourselves when it comes to standing up for a lady.
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