"War is at first like a beautiful girl with whom all men long to play, but in the end like a repulsive hag whose suitors all weep and ache."
                -- Samuel Hanagid (993-1056)

Author Topic: Which one do you think you are?  (Read 15717 times)

Sir James A

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #15 on: 2012-06-21, 23:08:19 »
Cavaliere, if you recall, I did say
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I would not balk at taking a life if circumstances were such that it was vitally necessary...but there is nothing at all romantic about it.

Most elegantly put, Sir William.

If I have no recourse, and must kill, so be it. If someone breaks into my home, threatens me with deadly intent, or if I *personally see them* in the act of doing so to another, they have played their card and will be subject to the consequences of their actions.

If I hear about somebody that did something? No, I won't act on it. I may *want* to act upon it, I may *say* I would act upon it, but at the core of it, with a world full of liars, con artists and thieves, one person's word is not enough to convince me to take matters into my own hands after the event. I *will* get outside help if necessary, but that is it. Without seeing something myself, there's too much at stake for fault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution), which has been proven many times.

In war, death happens. It's unavoidable. If you're lucky, you never have to take anyone's life, and you walk away with yours. If you do have to take someone's life, it is, hopefully, because you are both engaged in active combat, and as such, the likely result of a "kill or be killed" situation. And if you ask the majority of people who have taken a life, it stays with them for the rest of their life (such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder).

It seems to me that the taking of a life, when justified, should be exalted since the only reason to do so would be to maintain and fight for an ideal, and ideals are generally worth dying for.

Is the ideal worth killing for, or worth dying for?

I think the point I am trying to make is that if one was to take another life in defense of an ideal then you should not grieve for the taking of that life, because the fact of the matter is you live for those ideals, and if you feel bad for defending them then why do you live for them in the first place?

If the situation arises that you must take a life, it should be for something more than an ideal. An ideal is a concept. No man, woman or child should die over a concept. Someone can hate me all they want, or disagree completely with what I think; and I'll not harm them for the thought. If someone thinks molesting a child is okay, I'll disagree with that beyond words, but I won't assault them over the thought; when they cross the line and *I see them start to molest a child*, things will get ugly. But I won't kill them if I can avoid it.

The guy who defended his own 5 year old daughter against a man he saw molesting her has stated himself, that he regrets and did not wish to kill the molester. (See http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/us/father-not-charged-in-killing-of-man-molesting-his-daughter-5.html). And in fact, he did his best to get emergency services to SAVE the life of the man he just fought. Does that seem "romantic" in some way?

If the molester dies in the process of someone defending the child, then, such is the end of their path they have chosen to walk (as happened recently). In that situation, would I feel bad? No. Would I think it romantic, or the act of killing worthy of praise? No, not in the least. It is simply something that was done, and would be best forgotten about by all.

There is absolutely, positively, *nothing* "romantic" at all about taking a life. It is something I would take no joy in, I would have no celebration of, and I would avoid as much as possible. If you think the opposite, I respectfully suggest that you visit a Veteran of Foreign Wars (VFW) local group, and ask the people there if they have killed anyone, and if they thought it was romantic ... or if they suffer through effects of it that some of us wouldn't wish on our worst enemies....
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SirNathanQ

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #16 on: 2012-06-22, 02:00:57 »
Responding to the OP, I can't say I'm really any of those things. If anything, a mix of Warrior, fighter, and Scholar (but not your description) . The only reason I have warrior in there is because as of yet, I am young, and haven't achieved anything with my life. I have a drive to do something great, to be someone, And will stop at nothing that doesn't violate chivalry, Morals, or Ethics to do so. That drive is what I identify with for the warrior type.
In the context of killing, I would be a fighter. I myself do not believe that taking a life is inherently wrong or evil in of itself, and wouldn't hesitate to strike down one who takes violent aggression to me or that which I love.
I don't believe I get to decide who lives and who dies. If I saw Charles Manson on the street, I wouldn't plunge a sword in his gullet. I would apprehend him (though if he resisted with lethal force, then killing him wouldn't be wrong) and have him tried by those who are deemed fit to decide who lives and dies. However, if he attacks someone I love or me, then killing is fine.
Sir William brought up an excellent story showing precisely why no one man should decide who lives and dies.     
I would never voluntarily fight as the aggressor. War of course, is a different story.

Truly, there is nothing glorious about taking a life. Even in the situations mentioned above, I would still prefer not to kill the foe. I haven't taken a life, and God willing, I won't ever have to, but there's nothing especially glorious about a simple fistfight either. The sound of bones breaking is sickening. Come back after giving someone bleeding profusely some stitches (or in my case, assist the doctor giving the stitches), get the blood all over you, and then tell us how glorious blood truly is. 
And don't take this as some kind of pacifistic rant. I'd pick a good martial arts spar or Longsword duel to any normal sport or activity any day of the week.

Fiore, would you mind telling us which type you are?
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Cavaliere di Fiore

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #17 on: 2012-06-22, 03:29:39 »
All of you, Sirs, make great points and I consider them wholeheartedly. I graciously concede.

I, Sir Nathan, consider myself to be an artist, which is why I was so much more descriptive in that particular definition. I believe that my art, indeed all of our arts, flows in and perforates through our lives. I believe the passion that I feel for swordplay and knightly chivalry can be described aptly as similar to other mens' love of God Himself. I would gladly lay my soul to bare and my body to break for this passion. I believe it almost too good to be true that such a chord has been struck in my heart by it, and humbly accept it as a gift from whatever creator may be or from the fount of chance which laid it as a path before me.

Sir James A

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #18 on: 2012-06-22, 04:11:09 »
Perhaps a more succinct way is to simply quote Ironclad:

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Have you ever killed a man, squire? It is not a noble thing. Not even when it is for God!
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Cavaliere di Fiore

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #19 on: 2012-06-22, 04:23:37 »

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Have you ever killed a man, squire? It is not a noble thing. Not even when it is for God!

Fun movie. I loved the halfswording, it was quite entertaining.

SirNathanQ

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #20 on: 2012-06-22, 04:31:36 »
Fiore, I guessed as much, by the way your posts read. Very eloquent.
I'm guessing then you pursue some type of martial art or combat schools?
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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #21 on: 2012-06-22, 05:39:44 »
Indeed I do Sir Nathan. For about 4 years now I have studied German and Italian historical fencing, but I have been playing with swords from childhood much like most men of our mindset. I also try every martial art I can, because I believe that every art has something that I can use to make my personal one better. For instance, I am studying with the SCA right now, as well as taking Goju Ryu Karate from a friend and Jiu Jitsu from a group near where I live, though I must admit I have been lacking in my participation in the Jiu Jitsu. I like the art, but it isn't something that touches me deeply, if you understand. I plan on attending at least one practice with the Battle of Nations folks as well.

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #22 on: 2012-06-22, 07:13:28 »
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I like the art, but it isn't something that touches me deeply, if you understand.

That costs extra the girls at Moonlight Ranch tell me. <ba-dump-bump-zing!> ;)


In a more serious light y'all should expect to hear a story of trial and tribulations regarding me & my journey as a Cynaguan Guardsman soon. The mishigas should be done by the end of the weekend.
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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #23 on: 2012-06-22, 14:18:12 »
I'm not sure where you're located, but there are also a lot of WMA/HEMA schools and groups popping up all over the place. Things have improved greatly even just in the last 2-3 years, in terms of available groups to work with, and the interpretations, and number of books published on the subject. It's an exciting time to be a historical martial artist.
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Sir William

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #24 on: 2012-06-22, 15:50:09 »
Artist, I thought as much.  I think it a fine thing to have something you feel so passionate about- it does make life that much more enriching, no?

The notion that taking life can be romantic I squarely blame those troubadours whose job it was to put a romantic spin on warfare.  You see or hear it all the time...take our national anthem:...the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air... - the entire song is quite rousing, designed to inflame our notion of patriotism - but it does not mention the blasted, broken bodies left behind by those rockets and bombs, or the shattered families and psyches of the soldiers themselves once the war is over.

Nor should it...if it did, no one would want to join the Army.
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Sir James A

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #25 on: 2012-06-22, 16:15:21 »
Indeed I do Sir Nathan. For about 4 years now I have studied German and Italian historical fencing, but I have been playing with swords from childhood much like most men of our mindset. I also try every martial art I can, because I believe that every art has something that I can use to make my personal one better. For instance, I am studying with the SCA right now, as well as taking Goju Ryu Karate from a friend and Jiu Jitsu from a group near where I live, though I must admit I have been lacking in my participation in the Jiu Jitsu. I like the art, but it isn't something that touches me deeply, if you understand. I plan on attending at least one practice with the Battle of Nations folks as well.

Always a pleasure to meet someone with varied culture interests. I have some previous karate time that included after-class time with just sensei, myself and one other guy, and I've been eyeballing some Koryu Gumdo nearby (basically eastern test-cutting). While I enjoy the samurai and realistic-ninja side of things, it doesn't have a personal touch to it since my heritage is european.
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Joshua Santana

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #26 on: 2012-06-22, 16:31:07 »
An amazing discussion indeed.  Well here it my take on it.

I would be a fighter since my personality fits that role perfectly, I can see aspects of teh Artist the Scholar and the Warrior in me but I would be mostly a Fighter by Cavaliere's definitions.

However, we cannot forget to ask ourselves this question:  What truly defines us as Knights?
Is it because we believe in our Beliefs and in the Code of Chivalry?  Is it because we wear armor and wield swords?  Is it because we think ourselves as Knights and we act according to the Code?

The answer to that question is this:  What truly defines us as Knights is what we do everyday in our lives in and out of armor, our deeds are and must be congruent with the Code of Chivalry and our own Beliefs.  We Knights by this definition and yardstick and we act and should act according to our chosen duties as Knights. 

What truly defines us as Knights is what we do to others including to each others, we teach each other, we learn from each other and we together prove to a community or communities that living by a Code of Virtues and Moral Principles makes a better world and a better individual.  How we treat the uninformed individual to the person who asks many questions is what defines us as Knights, we are teachers and we are people that can relate to us or can aspire to be like one of us.  How we treat our families, friends and loved ones also defines us as well.  If one can be courteous in the work force, that same level of Courtesy can easily be applied to one's family, friends and loved ones even though there will be people who will disagree with you most of the time.   

What defines me as a Knight is not my passionate adherence to the Code, but also me Belief in God and Jesus Christ.  It is my Faith that fuels my passion to live by a Code that I believe to be found on Scripture and to act accordingly.  Even though I may have issues that are lifelong, it doesn't prevent me from doing my utmost best in living by my Faith and the Code.  I may live in a community that may not be interested in HEMA or Chivalry, but it doesn't stop me from being the first guy to spark that interest in other people. I may practice my German Longsword, Medieval Sword and Buckler and Bolognese Swordsmanship to the point where I practice all three daily before work or may seem to be nearly obsessed with practicing all together, but that is not a distraction from me taking the time to read the Scriptures first and praying in Spirit and Truth.  Chivalry is not just about Virtues and Morals, it is also about seeing everything in life in it's proper perspective.  This means that I may be busy with University duties, work or taking care of my family but it doesn't stop me from planning ahead for my Full Soft and Hard Kits and taking the time to look at all of my options and choices.  It doesn't stop me from being who I am regardless of me having no armor save a longsword. 
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Sir Wolf

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #27 on: 2012-06-22, 16:43:46 »
too much reading i got lost

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #28 on: 2012-06-22, 18:07:53 »
too much reading i got lost

Sir Wolf needs "tl;dr" summaries. :)
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Sir James A

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Re: Which one do you think you are?
« Reply #29 on: 2012-06-22, 22:31:39 »
too much reading i got lost

Sir Wolf needs "tl;dr" summaries. :)

It started off with an in-depth discussion. "Which of these are you?", and then "All, some, and none.". Then the ninjas showed! http://www.funnygames.co.uk/find-the-ninja.htm
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