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Is Dr HS Thompson's death the result of an honorable act?
Ian:
--- Quote from: Sir Edward on 2012-04-06, 16:14:21 ---
--- Quote from: Ian on 2012-04-06, 15:59:38 ---
--- Quote from: Sir William on 2012-04-06, 15:49:09 ---There is no honor in suicide...it is essentially a cowardly act.
--- End quote ---
What about in feudal Japan?
--- End quote ---
I think that boils down to a huge cultural difference between the East and West.
--- End quote ---
In context I think the act of seppuku is for all intents and purposes an honorable act, because it was meant to be so, and was respected as one within the culture it was performed in. I was just playing devil's advocate there anyway. I don't really believe Hunter S Thompson's suicide would be considered an honorable act just because he felt like he was a drain on society, or not fun to be around anymore.
What about in the cases of badly suffering terminally ill patients? Is it honorable to kill yourself when you're a burden on your family, and in such pain that extension of life is just extension of suffering? I think it's selfish of us to impose our standard of what's honorable and not honorable to the person actually suffering. For an interesting documentary on this subject, (I think it's Netflix streamable), check out the film 'How to Die in Oregon.' http://www.howtodieinoregon.com/ (I know assisted suicide is a very touchy subject for some people, I'm not trying to start a debate, just some stuff to think about).
I seem to recall something about ancient societies, where the old and infirm would leave and go off to die of exposure to alleviate their burden on their families / clans etc.
edit:
And let's not forget intentionally getting yourself killed to save others in war. That's essentially a form of suicide, most often recognized by the awarding of a medal of honor ;)
Sir James A:
--- Quote from: Sir Edward on 2012-04-06, 16:14:21 ---
--- Quote from: Ian on 2012-04-06, 15:59:38 ---
--- Quote from: Sir William on 2012-04-06, 15:49:09 ---There is no honor in suicide...it is essentially a cowardly act.
--- End quote ---
What about in feudal Japan?
--- End quote ---
I think that boils down to a huge cultural difference between the East and West.
--- End quote ---
Yep, and in most cases, seppuku was a way to regain lost honor, rather than to retain it. If you were defeated in battle, rather than be executed by your enemy, they would allow you to do it yourself. Betrayal of a feudal lord or otherwise could also have seppuku as the "penance". There's extenuating things such as committing suicide before interrogation so that the enemy doesn't get secret information that could sway the battle in their favor. Of course there are exceptions, as with any tradition in history.
As Sir Ian said, self sacrifice is a form of suicide. To me, that is noble; to give one's life to save another.
However, none of those circumstances apply in this case. It was cowardice and he was taking the 'easy' way out.
Thorsteinn:
For Sir William:
You base your values upon Judeo-Christian premises yes? Well then I must ask about the Battle of Mosada where-in all but a few of the Jews committed suicide rather than be captured so as to deny the Romans a victory. It conforms to the spirit of Jewish Law & Culture while disobeying the rule. How do you reconcile that act given that most eastern European Jews consider them Hero's?
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For the rest:
--- Quote ---And let's not forget intentionally getting yourself killed to save others in war. That's essentially a form of suicide, most often recognized by the awarding of a medal of honor ;)
--- End quote ---
Like here for example:
or here:
http://badassoftheweek.com/stamfordbridge.html
It is also said that Cato, Brutus, Marc Anthony, & Cleopatra of Caesars time committed suicide to preserve Honor.
Thich Quang Duc self-immolated in quiet protest during the 1970's.
Were any of the above "acting Heroically/ Honorably/ Correctly/ Honestly/ Poorly/ Evilly/ Etc"?
-Ivan
BTW a Samurai could also commit suicide in protest of a command he did not want to carry out. Some dishonorable Daimyo would order Samurai they wished to dispose of to do something they knew the man in question would rather die than carry out.
A good example of this is in Highlander The Series where Duncan's friend, a Samurai in 16th cen Japan, must commit Seppuku to avoid dishonor for helping Duncan. In this Duncan receives a valuable lesson on the cost & glory of Honor in Japan at 33:00 in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JiJ0bMaTtuQ#t=2015s
Stir that pot? Yes I do!
Sir James A:
One of my all-time favorite Highlander episodes. Had it on VHS and watched it all the time as a kid. It's also why I carry so much of my sword stroke from my shoulders instead of my hips - "Feel the power of the mountain flow down through you".
Sir Edward:
I don't even need to play the video-- I remember that. :)
I have the whole series on DVD now. I re-watched it a couple years ago.
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