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Author Topic: Cross worn on back  (Read 21738 times)

Frater de Beaumanoir

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #15 on: 2011-08-10, 10:31:37 »
The Primitive Rule of the Templars does state that Sergeants would wear crosses on front and back. This is probably because alot of them would be working with locally hired Turcopoles and clothing would likely mirror that of local enemies, it would be easier for a mounted Brother to recognise a dismounted ally (Seargeants and some Turcopoles fought on foot) in the midst of a Theological scrum in the Outremer.

Also, since many a Church Bishop, priest, and or vision recipient liked to tie biblical events to their actions, isit not hard to believe thata cross on the back would symbolize that of Christ carrying the cross as well......just a thought. ;D

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #16 on: 2011-08-10, 12:55:49 »
Well my reading does nothing to mention it worn ONLY on the back, I think for Identification purposes, foot soldiers might bear a cross on their back in addition to one in front.
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Sir William

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #17 on: 2011-08-10, 13:14:55 »
That is interesting, Frater...do you have any links to those references?
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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #18 on: 2011-08-10, 13:16:43 »
The Primitive Rule of the Templars does state that Sergeants would wear crosses on front and back.

That makes sense. You'd want your foot soldiers to be identifiable.

But I think the initial statement was that the knights wore their surcoats backward on the way back from crusade.

BTW, great avatar image. "Infidel inside"... lol :)
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SirNathanQ

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #19 on: 2011-08-10, 17:01:08 »
I still wouldn't have heard anything about it, I would be interested in seeing evidence of that though
"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect." -Carl Von Clausewitz
"He is truly a fearless knight and secure on every side, for his soul is protected by the armor of faith just as his body is protected by armor of steel." -Saint Bernard of Clairvoux

Sir William

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #20 on: 2011-08-10, 20:46:24 »
I didn't find any references to it when I did a quick google search...might've worded it wrong, though.
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Frater de Beaumanoir

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #21 on: 2011-08-11, 00:11:57 »
That is interesting, Frater...do you have any links to those references?

Ser William,

Please find my reference in J.M.Upton-Ward's The Rule of the Templars: statute 141 on page 54- The surcoats of Sergeant Brothers should be completely black, with a red cross on the front and back.

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #22 on: 2011-08-11, 00:36:23 »
what year was this put into place?

Frater de Beaumanoir

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #23 on: 2011-08-11, 00:36:56 »
BTW, great avatar image. "Infidel inside"... lol :)

My thanks.

Sir James A

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #24 on: 2011-08-12, 04:54:17 »
Orcs have no armor on their back sides, did you know that?  With the exception of the head.  It is because they are not supposed to run, but if they prove craven and DO run, they are largely unprotected.  There's a factoid for ya!  ;)

Early samurai had a similar concept. They had a 5-piece body armor. Front, both sides, and the two small sides in the rear (about 1/3 each). But nothing in the center rear to cover the spine area. There was a separate, unattached plate that could be inserted there, called a "se ita" - japanese for "coward's plate" - and it was a sign of cowardice to wear one, as it meant you intended to turn your back on the enemy (and run) if necessary. Of course, if they're running from orcs, it would get interesting... :D

That is interesting, Frater...do you have any links to those references?

Ser William,

Please find my reference in J.M.Upton-Ward's The Rule of the Templars: statute 141 on page 54- The surcoats of Sergeant Brothers should be completely black, with a red cross on the front and back.

That sounds very similar to the hospitalers. For a time, sergeants wore black with a white cross, while other members wore red with a white cross. That was only from 1259-1279, per Pope Innocent IV. However, that was the 'standard' dictated, but variance from the standard is certainly possible. Absence of evidence not meaning evidence of absence, as Oakeshott said.

In regards to wearing the cross on the back while returning from crusades to face Jerusalem, I've never heard of that. From a logical standpoint, if the cross were to face TO Jerusalem, and they were crusading FROM Jerusalem, they would be wearing it backwards while GOING on the crusade, and wearing it forwards while RETURNING. Based just on that, I'd have to disagree with what the jouster said, unless everyone walked backwards to and from.
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Frater de Beaumanoir

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #25 on: 2011-08-12, 12:19:30 »
what year was this put into place?

It looks to be around 1163: The Retrais et Etablissements de Temple consisting of some 675 additional articles was added to the Rule, covering – the conventual life, defining the hierarchical status, regulating the chapters, election of the Grand Master, determining the penance and punishments for violations of the Rule and Statutes and admission to the Order. Pope Alexander III (1158-81) issued a Bull recognising the amended Rule and declaring the Templars a Sovereign Authority.

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #26 on: 2011-08-12, 13:23:53 »
Early samurai had a similar concept. They had a 5-piece body armor. Front, both sides, and the two small sides in the rear (about 1/3 each). But nothing in the center rear to cover the spine area. There was a separate, unattached plate that could be inserted there, called a "se ita" - japanese for "coward's plate" - and it was a sign of cowardice to wear one, as it meant you intended to turn your back on the enemy (and run) if necessary. Of course, if they're running from orcs, it would get interesting... :D
Figures...he would've had to have gotten it from somewhere, right?  ;)

Please find my reference in J.M.Upton-Ward's The Rule of the Templars: statute 141 on page 54- The surcoats of Sergeant Brothers should be completely black, with a red cross on the front and back.

Quote from: James Anderson III
That sounds very similar to the hospitalers. For a time, sergeants wore black with a white cross, while other members wore red with a white cross. That was only from 1259-1279, per Pope Innocent IV. However, that was the 'standard' dictated, but variance from the standard is certainly possible. Absence of evidence not meaning evidence of absence, as Oakeshott said.

In regards to wearing the cross on the back while returning from crusades to face Jerusalem, I've never heard of that. From a logical standpoint, if the cross were to face TO Jerusalem, and they were crusading FROM Jerusalem, they would be wearing it backwards while GOING on the crusade, and wearing it forwards while RETURNING. Based just on that, I'd have to disagree with what the jouster said, unless everyone walked backwards to and from.

Sir James, I believe that would need to be predicated on the assumption that there was only the one cross on the front of the surcoat; Frater mentions an entry to the Templar Rule that notes the use of crosses on front and back of the serjeant...but what about the knight?  I don't have the book so I can't look it up.

I had a thought- that the idea of the 'cross facing Jerusalem' is similar to the Muslims who all pray facing Mecca- could be that that was the intent.
« Last Edit: 2011-08-12, 13:26:21 by Ser William »
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Frater de Beaumanoir

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #27 on: 2011-08-13, 12:10:51 »
I've been through several of my books (I haven't stopped looking), and so far the only references to cross locations besides that of the Templar Rule, are Spanish sources during the Reconquista (that predate Urban's 1095 speech) that talk about the cross being placed on the right shoulder.

For those coming back there's mention of the wearing of scallop shells (especially in Spanish pilgrimages) and the wearing of palm fronds found near the river Jordan.
« Last Edit: 2011-08-13, 12:13:11 by Frater de Beaumanoir »

Frater de Beaumanoir

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #28 on: 2011-08-13, 20:28:49 »
A History of the Crusades, Vol. III: The Kingdom of Acre and the Later Crusades by Mr Steven Runciman has the following statement in it:

On the breast of their tunics the crusaders wore a cross of blood-red cloth. Those who returned from the crusade wore the cross on their backs.

I haven't found this anywhere else.....yet. It's interesting to note that with all the privilidges accorded to someone that went on crusade to the Holy Land (safe keeping of his possessions, no legal proceedings against one's person until their return, etc) that they would place a very visual symbol of their recent efforts on the hardest spot for one to be easily recognized upon their return from theater. When traveling home, most likely by foot (even after sailing home to a nearby port, as they would have already surrendered any personal wealth they had carried), one would see the returning pilgrims front and not the rear of his coat.

With the additional of an air of mystique about them, due to their distant travels, I would think it would have served them better on their front, to ward off miscreants, or open the donating hearts of those who couldn't make the pilgrimage/crusade.

They too probably had their share of "stolen valor" episodes with some donning the Cross, who'd never made the trip, but sought to gain the fame and privilidges of returning Crusaders.

Again in resources covering the Reconquista, the crosses were placed upon the right shoulder. It should be noted that the privilidges and remissions given by Urban II in 1095, had already been done so by him to Crusaders fighting Moors on the Iberian peninsula years earlier. By 1095 the Papal authorities seemed to have perfected their approach to "recruiting".
« Last Edit: 2011-08-13, 22:38:23 by Frater de Beaumanoir »

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Re: Cross worn on back
« Reply #29 on: 2011-08-13, 21:39:03 »

Interesting, so there's at least one source that mentions it then. I'd still find it more solid if multiple sources mentioned it. But that's a great start. Fantastic!
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